people kill me.. cry for classic servers but when they get it, it will be new crys.. "too hardcore" "armor all looks the same" "slow leveling process" "pvp sucks breh" "where are the content updates" etc... etc.
"Beliefs don't change facts. Facts, if you're reasonable, should change your beliefs."
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
Same old propaganda ''THer is still 4-5 million of people that enjoy it''
THere are obviously less than 4 milion because my server is empty and believe me none of them is delighted by the game, bless i bought many tokens when their cost was around 23-25k in EU servers. Only logging in to make some money to get ready for legion.
If u really beileve people are enjoying current wow u are dellusional. Nostalgia is what keeps them playing of what this game and its community used to be
Funny thing...
Nostalgia is the only reason I have purchased the last 3 Xpacks.
Same thing except Cata i liked WOtlk so i didnt have second thoughts. But Pandaria and WoD? I only bought them because i was too invested into the game , nostalgia made me buy them
Nostalgia is a powerful force when combined with no subscription.
People keep saying stuff like this, rose colored glasses and such. But just look at the success behind EQs classic servers (mostly classic). I mean, they're the only ones smart enough to cash in on the idea, and yes it requires a subscription.
There are/were more than one WoW private servers, but which ones were more popular? Classic. Not because they were free.
I honestly have no idea how many people are playing EQ classic, so I'm interested in numbers.
What kind of success are we talking about?
the EQ TLP servers have 4ish thousand people total. Including people who box, up to 30ish accounts at some extremes. Good numbers for EQ subs and cash shop sales I guess.
All of this "their brand" talk amuses me. If Tolkien were alive and young he'd have a few things to say about the extreme amount of plagiarizing in "their brand".
When you create DUNE, or Aliens, or Babylon 5 from scratch, then you have "a brand". When you pull all of the Tolkien races off the shelf, toss them into your high fantasy game, turn around and climb up on that moral high horse, then I'm a bit amused.
Sure, they did all the work to steal half of Tolien's ideas, and then code them into a game and they should protect that code. They have every right to. But when they start throwing Dwarves, Elves and Orks around and calling it their brand, then they should be ashamed. Especially when you think back to Warcraft 1, 2 and 3 and those were the only races in the game aside from the obligatory humans.
And don't forget that the RTS that spawned WoW was a ripoff of Warhammer. Blizzard are programming and marketing geniuses, but it stops there.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
Same old propaganda ''THer is still 4-5 million of people that enjoy it''
THere are obviously less than 4 milion because my server is empty and believe me none of them is delighted by the game, bless i bought many tokens when their cost was around 23-25k in EU servers. Only logging in to make some money to get ready for legion.
If u really beileve people are enjoying current wow u are dellusional. Nostalgia is what keeps them playing of what this game and its community used to be
Funny thing...
Nostalgia is the only reason I have purchased the last 3 Xpacks.
Same thing except Cata i liked WOtlk so i didnt have second thoughts. But Pandaria and WoD? I only bought them because i was too invested into the game , nostalgia made me buy them
Towards the end of WotLK, I wanted to level a Pally for the first time. I entered Razorfen Kraul at lvl-18 with 3 others ranging up to lvl 21. We breezed through, not one death.
I canceled my sub that night.
I bought into Cata, leveled my mains. Then ran Deadmines, I was totally bummed.
Since then I've only lasted to a max of 60 days with every Xpack
H0urg1ass said:
The version that everyone carbon copies are absolutely Tolkien's creation. There's no question whatsoever that when making Warcraft 1, they were pulling from Tolkien's writings and not Norse/European mythology. So saddle that high horse back up.
Those mythical creatures existed long before Tolkien. They have roots in anglo-saxon, germanic and whatnot mythology - naturally, different mythologies share many creatures.
They are no more his "brand" than Blizzard's or anyone's else.
I remember when I was a kid and everyone was at the movies watching Norse Mythology and wearing Anglo Saxon T-Shirts while using Germanic Slang. ...please
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
Same old propaganda ''THer is still 4-5 million of people that enjoy it''
THere are obviously less than 4 milion because my server is empty and believe me none of them is delighted by the game, bless i bought many tokens when their cost was around 23-25k in EU servers. Only logging in to make some money to get ready for legion.
If u really beileve people are enjoying current wow u are dellusional. Nostalgia is what keeps them playing of what this game and its community used to be
Funny thing...
Nostalgia is the only reason I have purchased the last 3 Xpacks.
Same thing except Cata i liked WOtlk so i didnt have second thoughts. But Pandaria and WoD? I only bought them because i was too invested into the game , nostalgia made me buy them
Towards the end of WotLK, I wanted to level a Pally for the first time. I entered Razorfen Kraul at lvl-18 with 3 others ranging up to lvl 21. We breezed through, not one death.
I canceled my sub that night.
I bought into Cata, leveled my mains. Then ran Deadmines, I was totally bummed.
Since then I've only lasted to a max of 60 days with every Xpack
Yep last patch of WOtlk was the turning point. I played aswell every xpantion 60-90 days from wotlk and afterwards.Except WoD, after 35 days i had cancelled my sub. Then ressubed to buy tokens
^ it may in the USA, but not every country sees copyright or gaming software that way, hence the disagreement.
Which is why this issue will not go away. As long as other countries do not agree on public domain and ownership of digital software, thus issue will remain unresolved.
I for one am glad not every country agrees with the USA.
I'm sure that if you had some sort of creative project that you had made with your personal sweat and someone came along and usurped it, you'd feel differently regardless of what nation you live in. People's creative intellectual property should be sovereign and, yes, that includes the corporate intellectual property as well.
You can vilify my all you want, but it doesnt change the fact that many millions of people in the world believe that if you buy something, you own the rights to it. Companies can claim anything and say anything about what is expected, but rule of law and interpretation to what consumers are entitled to after paying for things is not universally agreed upon, as is evidenced by many different laws on this, even within the united states.
You can stay on your high-horse all you like, and I do understand where you are coming from, but lets not pretend that other views of ownership and property based on payment of goods are universal. Many countries laws supercede what a private company may claim.
This is my opinion, and the opinion of many other people, countries, and governments, contrary to what you may insist against in ignorance to try and fortify your position of so called "justice".
I'm sure that if you had some sort of creative project that you had made with your personal sweat and someone came along and usurped it, you'd feel differently regardless of what nation you live in. People's creative intellectual property should be sovereign and, yes, that includes the corporate intellectual property as well.
You can vilify my all you want, but it doesnt change the fact that many millions of people in the world believe that if you buy something, you own the rights to it. Companies can claim anything and say anything about what is expected, but rule of law and interpretation to what consumers are entitled to after paying for things is not universally agreed upon, as is evidenced by many different laws on this, even within the united states.
You can stay on your high-horse all you like, and I do understand where you are coming from, but lets not pretend that other views of ownership and property based on payment of goods are universal. Many countries laws supercede what a private company may claim.
This is my opinion, and the opinion of many other people, countries, and governments, contrary to what you may insist against in ignorance to try and fortify your position of so called "justice".
There was no vilification of you or your stance in any way shape or form. Neither am I on my "high horse" about the issue but speak as someone who has spent time in artistic pursuit. Lastly, I am far from "ignorant" or unaware of the opinion many have in the world about rights of ownership even if I personally disagree. To disagree is not to vilify.
That said, I was simply offering an observation that once a product is created, it becomes more personal and is, in fact, a part of who that person is -- that goes for things that are written, drawn, computer imagined, coded or any other form creative license takes. Perhaps I care too much for the things that have leaped from my imagination into something more tangible but I suspect that I am not alone. Art, in whatever form it takes, is a deeply, deeply personal thing. If you've ever experienced the magic of creating something out of nothing -- that came from your experiences, your life, your thoughts, your dreams or wherever inspiration comes from, you'd perhaps have a bit different view of the situation, all other legal entanglements aside.
I read this on Wowhead earlier... most of it reads like a good PR spin to avoid pissing off many players. Blizzard has missed the mark and it took a hugely successful private server to wake them up and instead of taking a progressive approach they bullied them. BLah, blah blah... I know private servers are basically stealing intellectual property but why only this one? There are dozens of WoW private servers out there.... why did they not do a sweeping shutdown of all of them?
PR spin..... to back pedal from the mess they made by shaking the cage.
It's the same rhetoric they've been spewing for years. Turning off Recruit-A-Friend (i.e. "pristine servers") doesn't bring back all the content that was lost when they modified the old world over the years. It's not the speed at which a player can level as much as the fact that the content itself is totally different. They can't seem to get that through their thick skulls.
And the 'protect their IP' line is a load of crap. They could have shut down Nostralius immediately but they chose... rather interestingly... to do it now when their Warcraft movie is due to come out. They knew this would generate negative PR, but you have to admit, there has been more talk about WoW since this closure than there has been for quite some time. People just don't realize there is a Warcraft movie (except the diehard WoW fans)... but now it's getting some exposure all because of this debate.
Just another "screw the players" post on the official forums. Nothing has changed.
THIS.
There is no such thing as "watering down your IP". Copyright is not the same as trademarks; the latter of which must be defended or could be lost. Copyright and IPs cannot be "lost" by failure to take action against infringers. If this were the case IPs like Star Trek and Star Wars would have been lost long ago due to their looking the other way when it comes to fan films and series. So that bit is a flat out lie.
The second part I don't quite get is that if this group that are basically volunteers can keep a WoW server up and running why can't the mighty Blizzard? I mean, it would be one thing if it were something that didn't exist. But it does. So essentially they're saying "we're not capable of making this thing that a group of fans has already done." Um, what? So again, there's not a lot of truth in this. The code exists. Plop it on a shard and let everyone know there is no tech support for playing it. I mean, this company brings in roughly $144 million a MONTH, just from WoW subs. They certainly can afford to do it.
The bottom line is simply this: they just don't want to do it. It's not that they can't, they just don't want to. And that's fine, but then at least have the balls to say it without making up nonsensical excuses.
I'm sure that if you had some sort of creative project that you had made with your personal sweat and someone came along and usurped it, you'd feel differently regardless of what nation you live in. People's creative intellectual property should be sovereign and, yes, that includes the corporate intellectual property as well.
You can vilify my all you want, but it doesnt change the fact that many millions of people in the world believe that if you buy something, you own the rights to it. Companies can claim anything and say anything about what is expected, but rule of law and interpretation to what consumers are entitled to after paying for things is not universally agreed upon, as is evidenced by many different laws on this, even within the united states.
You can stay on your high-horse all you like, and I do understand where you are coming from, but lets not pretend that other views of ownership and property based on payment of goods are universal. Many countries laws supercede what a private company may claim.
This is my opinion, and the opinion of many other people, countries, and governments, contrary to what you may insist against in ignorance to try and fortify your position of so called "justice".
There was no vilification of you or your stance in any way shape or form. Neither am I on my "high horse" about the issue but speak as someone who has spent time in artistic pursuit. Lastly, I am far from "ignorant" or unaware of the opinion many have in the world about rights of ownership even if I personally disagree. To disagree is not to vilify.
That said, I was simply offering an observation that once a product is created, it becomes more personal and is, in fact, a part of who that person is -- that goes for things that are written, drawn, computer imagined, coded or any other form creative license takes. Perhaps I care too much for the things that have leaped from my imagination into something more tangible but I suspect that I am not alone. Art, in whatever form it takes, is a deeply, deeply personal thing. If you've ever experienced the magic of creating something out of nothing -- that came from your experiences, your life, your thoughts, your dreams or wherever inspiration comes from, you'd perhaps have a bit different view of the situation, all other legal entanglements aside.
You keep claiming that those of us that use private servers are stealing intellectual property. I understand this point. The problem is that you fail to acknowledge the opposing side of purchasing a game or rights to a game.
Some countries laws prohibit companies using EULA's, and supercede EULA because they believe that when you pay for a product (including games), you own the rights to use and access that product. You do not have to agree with this, but many people and countries do.
In your repeated example you fail to acknowledge the entire scenario. If I made something, then sold it to someone, I would not be suing them over using the product they purchased. Would you? Obviously you would, but we disagree on this.
These are two views in opposition, yet both with validity depending on perspective. However, I strongly feel EULA's are extremely one sided, and I am glad that there are countries out there with laws that trump EULAs and disagree with your perspective.
I think instead of calling us intellectual thieves, you should view us as people that purchased a product who think it is fair and equitable to continue use of the product. THAT would be playing fair and not name-calling/ad-homenim.
I think instead of calling us intellectual thieves, you should view us as people that purchased a product who think it is fair and equitable to continue use of the product. THAT would be playing fair and not name-calling/ad-homenim.
Hardly ad-hominem since I am not attacking you personally which is its definition. We simply have a difference of opinion on the nature of ownership. I would hope that agreeing to disagree on this issue is a decent alternative to the continued assertion that I am somehow attacking you as opposed to disagreeing. They are vastly different things.
You and others have used words like "usurp" "intellectual theft" "taking creative work without payment" and statements like these. The name-calling and implications are very, very evident, used to call private server users unfair thieves, in no uncertain terms.
Just looking back at your last 4 posts reveal clearly that you are not coming from a "agree to disagree on ownership", you havent' even acknowledged the ownership argument until this point, instead simply pointing the finger again and again at intellectual theft, which I haven't heard anyone condone from EITHER perspective.
So if you wish to actually discuss ownership arguments and actually have a discussion, please go through my last post and address my answers regarding your examples and lets be productive by arguing and discussing if people that payed for vanilla wow actually own the right to play it or not.
That is the question on my mind. And with imminent domain law in the US affecting gaming (though not mmo's YET), I think the discussion is not as cut and dry as so many of the Blizzard/Anti-private server crowd would say.
Man, I would be SOOO down for those pristine servers. I recently decided to roll a new toon and return and all the freaking BoA gear is making the experience less fun.
You and others have used words like "usurp" "intellectual theft" "taking creative work without payment" and statements like these. The name-calling and implications are very, very evident, used to call private server users unfair thieves, in no uncertain terms.
Just looking back at your last 4 posts reveal clearly that you are not coming from a "agree to disagree on ownership", you havent' even acknowledged the ownership argument until this point, instead simply pointing the finger again and again at intellectual theft, which I haven't heard anyone condone from EITHER perspective.
So if you wish to actually discuss ownership arguments and actually have a discussion, please go through my last post and address my answers regarding your examples and lets be productive by arguing and discussing if people that payed for vanilla wow actually own the right to play it or not.
That is the question on my mind. And with imminent domain law in the US affecting gaming (though not mmo's YET), I think the discussion is not as cut and dry as so many of the Blizzard/Anti-private server crowd would say.
Oh, the discussion is cut-and-dried indeed. Your attempts to sway away specific case with some very broad and general use of IP protection laws/approach to IP are not going to change that.
No court in the world would support pirate servers of a working game because it is indeed an usurption, intellectual theft and taking creative work without payment.
You and others have used words like "usurp" "intellectual theft" "taking creative work without payment" and statements like these. The name-calling and implications are very, very evident, used to call private server users unfair thieves, in no uncertain terms.
Just looking back at your last 4 posts reveal clearly that you are not coming from a "agree to disagree on ownership", you havent' even acknowledged the ownership argument until this point, instead simply pointing the finger again and again at intellectual theft, which I haven't heard anyone condone from EITHER perspective.
So if you wish to actually discuss ownership arguments and actually have a discussion, please go through my last post and address my answers regarding your examples and lets be productive by arguing and discussing if people that payed for vanilla wow actually own the right to play it or not.
That is the question on my mind. And with imminent domain law in the US affecting gaming (though not mmo's YET), I think the discussion is not as cut and dry as so many of the Blizzard/Anti-private server crowd would say.
Oh, the discussion is cut-and-dried indeed. Your attempts to sway away specific case with some very broad and general use of IP protection laws/approach to IP are not going to change that.
No court in the world would support pirate servers of a working game because it is indeed an usurption, intellectual theft and taking creative work without payment.
Wrong on how other countries view EULA, wrong on people having purchased and paid for the game and software, and wrong that laws even in the US that are beginning to acknowledge that games are indeed subject to the consumer when the company no longer supports them.
So again, you can name call about being a thief, but in actuality, you still refuse to argue about ownership for those that have purchased the game.
Nostalgia is a powerful force when combined with no subscription.
Tragic is nearly all this "force" comes from "no subscription feature". Yet, many that love all that is free, can't gather 12.99€ to support development of great game, but can spent (in general, not all sure) several times this ammount per month for smoke and drinks. If I love something, will support and pay sub, if I do not, will not play, why bother playing non good game.
Thupli said:
Wrong on how other countries view EULA, wrong on people having purchased and paid for the game and software, and wrong that laws even in the US that are beginning to acknowledge that games are indeed subject to the consumer when the company no longer supports them.
So again, you can name call about being a thief, but in actuality, you still refuse to argue about ownership for those that have purchased the game.
This isn't about EULA at all.
Sure, there is lots of discussion about digital content ownership but this is not the case. WoW is a working, supported game.
You can argue about modifcations/add-ons to client, you might argue use of art assets and other digital content but that is still miles away from running your own server. That is simply an outright theft of intelectual property.
Just because of your bias and cry for vanilla server does not make it "no longer supported product" either.
Wod is indeed a different game from TBC or wrath, or vanilla. You sign different user agreements for each game because they are in fact all different games. Legally, your argument couldn't be further from the truth, and blizzard no longer supports vanilla, tbc, or wrath, etc.
Wod is indeed a different game from TBC or wrath, or vanilla.
Haha, um..no. Still the same source code, same art, same project, same business venture. They are just an itteration to existing assets, product. That is why it is called versions, not new products.
Actually no. I paid for each of these as a separate game and signed agreements for each of them separately.
I own windows NT, windows XP, windows 7. They are all seperate OS systems that I can use even though they have the same source code. No different with WoW.
maybe you bought yours all bundled and signs one agreement for them all, but I did not.
Comments
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
plural noun: piracies
"software piracy"
synonyms: illegal copying, plagiarism, copyright infringement, bootlegging
"software piracy"
"The Society that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting by fools."
Currently: Games Audio Engineer, you didn't hear what I heard, you heard what I wanted you to hear.
the EQ TLP servers have 4ish thousand people total. Including people who box, up to 30ish accounts at some extremes. Good numbers for EQ subs and cash shop sales I guess.
I canceled my sub that night.
I bought into Cata, leveled my mains. Then ran Deadmines, I was totally bummed.
Since then I've only lasted to a max of 60 days with every Xpack
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
...please
You can stay on your high-horse all you like, and I do understand where you are coming from, but lets not pretend that other views of ownership and property based on payment of goods are universal. Many countries laws supercede what a private company may claim.
This is my opinion, and the opinion of many other people, countries, and governments, contrary to what you may insist against in ignorance to try and fortify your position of so called "justice".
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
That said, I was simply offering an observation that once a product is created, it becomes more personal and is, in fact, a part of who that person is -- that goes for things that are written, drawn, computer imagined, coded or any other form creative license takes. Perhaps I care too much for the things that have leaped from my imagination into something more tangible but I suspect that I am not alone. Art, in whatever form it takes, is a deeply, deeply personal thing. If you've ever experienced the magic of creating something out of nothing -- that came from your experiences, your life, your thoughts, your dreams or wherever inspiration comes from, you'd perhaps have a bit different view of the situation, all other legal entanglements aside.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
PR spin..... to back pedal from the mess they made by shaking the cage.
THIS.
There is no such thing as "watering down your IP". Copyright is not the same as trademarks; the latter of which must be defended or could be lost. Copyright and IPs cannot be "lost" by failure to take action against infringers. If this were the case IPs like Star Trek and Star Wars would have been lost long ago due to their looking the other way when it comes to fan films and series. So that bit is a flat out lie.
The second part I don't quite get is that if this group that are basically volunteers can keep a WoW server up and running why can't the mighty Blizzard? I mean, it would be one thing if it were something that didn't exist. But it does. So essentially they're saying "we're not capable of making this thing that a group of fans has already done." Um, what? So again, there's not a lot of truth in this. The code exists. Plop it on a shard and let everyone know there is no tech support for playing it. I mean, this company brings in roughly $144 million a MONTH, just from WoW subs. They certainly can afford to do it.
The bottom line is simply this: they just don't want to do it. It's not that they can't, they just don't want to. And that's fine, but then at least have the balls to say it without making up nonsensical excuses.
Some countries laws prohibit companies using EULA's, and supercede EULA because they believe that when you pay for a product (including games), you own the rights to use and access that product. You do not have to agree with this, but many people and countries do.
In your repeated example you fail to acknowledge the entire scenario. If I made something, then sold it to someone, I would not be suing them over using the product they purchased. Would you? Obviously you would, but we disagree on this.
These are two views in opposition, yet both with validity depending on perspective. However, I strongly feel EULA's are extremely one sided, and I am glad that there are countries out there with laws that trump EULAs and disagree with your perspective.
I think instead of calling us intellectual thieves, you should view us as people that purchased a product who think it is fair and equitable to continue use of the product. THAT would be playing fair and not name-calling/ad-homenim.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Just looking back at your last 4 posts reveal clearly that you are not coming from a "agree to disagree on ownership", you havent' even acknowledged the ownership argument until this point, instead simply pointing the finger again and again at intellectual theft, which I haven't heard anyone condone from EITHER perspective.
So if you wish to actually discuss ownership arguments and actually have a discussion, please go through my last post and address my answers regarding your examples and lets be productive by arguing and discussing if people that payed for vanilla wow actually own the right to play it or not.
That is the question on my mind. And with imminent domain law in the US affecting gaming (though not mmo's YET), I think the discussion is not as cut and dry as so many of the Blizzard/Anti-private server crowd would say.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
No court in the world would support pirate servers of a working game because it is indeed an usurption, intellectual theft and taking creative work without payment.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
So again, you can name call about being a thief, but in actuality, you still refuse to argue about ownership for those that have purchased the game.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Tragic is nearly all this "force" comes from "no subscription feature". Yet, many that love all that is free, can't gather 12.99€ to support development of great game, but can spent (in general, not all sure) several times this ammount per month for smoke and drinks. If I love something, will support and pay sub, if I do not, will not play, why bother playing non good game.
Sure, there is lots of discussion about digital content ownership but this is not the case. WoW is a working, supported game.
You can argue about modifcations/add-ons to client, you might argue use of art assets and other digital content but that is still miles away from running your own server. That is simply an outright theft of intelectual property.
Just because of your bias and cry for vanilla server does not make it "no longer supported product" either.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
^^
Actually no. I paid for each of these as a separate game and signed agreements for each of them separately.
I own windows NT, windows XP, windows 7. They are all seperate OS systems that I can use even though they have the same source code. No different with WoW.
maybe you bought yours all bundled and signs one agreement for them all, but I did not.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.