Been playing WoW off and on for years, strictly as PVE though i did dabble in PVP a few times, but as for raiding, just never got into it, it just wasn't interesting enough to devote that much time to that side of the game, so i never get involved in raiding, don't feel that i missed anything either, and, i am still playing. Raiding? not really sure what all the big deal is tbh, as it sounds like a whole lot of pain for very little gain, and i play for fun.
Taking down a more challenging boss youve been working on for a while is a huge rush. Its that 'hell yeah!' moment that makes it. And gear is never out of reach either... the drop rates are quite reasonable. I never understood how people get fun out of grinding faceroll content for days waiting for a 0.1% drop in other games. Thats not an achievement. Thats not satisfaction for me.
No, not really. Not in WoW, a game that holds your hands through raids with add-ons. I got that feeling in EQ and EQ2, not so much in WoW.
Most guides come from people Alpha and Beta Testing the content, though. DBM is likely to be working for Legion Dungeons and the first raids when the expansion launches, for that reason. WoW is raiding on rails. It's not very exhillerating, and actually kind of annoying with the addons barkng at you... People do it because it's where the gear is at...
No, not really. Not in WoW, a game that holds your hands through raids with add-ons. I got that feeling in EQ and EQ2, not so much in WoW.
I somehow doubt you have been raiding in modern WoW. Sure you can use add-ons. But that is a player to player thing.
In fact raiding in WoW is some of the most innovative i have come across (not sure if that says more about WoW or the rest) especially back in WotLK.
Sure the new LFR is cakewalk.. but that is the whole idea. Let the people who do not raid see the raid content. I do hear that mythic-level raiding do put forth a decent challenge for the ones inclined.
No, not really. Not in WoW, a game that holds your hands through raids with add-ons. I got that feeling in EQ and EQ2, not so much in WoW.
I somehow doubt you have been raiding in modern WoW. Sure you can use add-ons. But that is a player to player thing.
In fact raiding in WoW is some of the most innovative i have come across (not sure if that says more about WoW or the rest) especially back in WotLK.
Sure the new LFR is cakewalk.. but that is the whole idea. Let the people who do not raid see the raid content. I do hear that mythic-level raiding do put forth a decent challenge for the ones inclined.
I like how you doubt me, then you say things that are utterly... baffling.
Add-Ons are the standard in WoW. I don't think any Guilds Raid without DBM and other Add-Ons. The content is designed such that those add-ons are pretty much compulsory these days, and the Add-Ons are usually updated for the newer content by the time an expansion launches (due to Alpha/Beta testers) and then tweaked as things move along.
This means that when people are doing Legion Heroics for the first time, it will almost certainly be with DBM and other Add-Ons barking orders at them.
No one gives a hoot about LFR and I'm not sure why you'd just assume that I'm some LFR hero that's using that as a gauge for how raiding is in this game. I've barely run any LFR raids at all...
Add-Ons are not a player to player thing, unless your mind works like a stopwatch and you have near photographic memory and some of the best reflexes on the planet. The Add-Ons negate a lot of the in-build deficiencies of man players by allowing them to play proactively instead of reactively. That's a big deal. This wasn't the case in EQ and EQ2. They also significantly shorten the time to learn the encounters (the in-built stuff in game helps with that as well...).
By the time end of expansion arrives and players are severely geared out at the top end, and speed killing Mythic Bosses of course the Add-Ons at that point don't matter much since they just zerg it down with DPS and it falls over.
For progression, most guilds would get rid of people without add ons for the multiple fails they cause, deaths they have, slow reactions to mechanics, healer pressures they cause, etc. They will simply assume these players are bad, or at worse stupid. No one thinks to assume that a human may be raiding without assistance, and most people don't really remember what it like to play the game that way (the only time they ignore this stuff, is in pushover LFR raids where the mechanics are laughable, or when they significantly over gear the content and can DPS it down quickly/easily).
WoW raiding isn't any more innovative than EQ or EQ2, or other games I've played. The formula is similar. The mechanics are in many cases quite similar. Some of the fight types (council, shared health, etc.) are similar. The concept of going onto the boats to kill stuff for Iron Maiden was not much different than going into the Pits to kill stuff on the first boss in Citadel of Anguish in EQ). The main differentiating factor that I have with WoW is that the game has become extremely add-on dependent.
This is not a player to player thing, unless you actually believe some of those players are superhuman (and they aren't).
I am rating in WoW now. I haven't played EQ2 since before AoD and EQ in a long time. But I still have video that I recorded from the raids there. There were no add-ons barking at me and they certainly weren't required for peak efficiency while raiding, like they are in WoW. Again, the content is being designed against those tools, because they exist (otherwise the content would be trivialized by them), which further cements their position in raiding for this game.
I think the fact that these add-ons are so heavily used and so effective has actually held the game back a bit in terms of encounter design. A lot of things that you can do that are otherwise kind of tricky, are completely trivialized by the add-ons, so Blizzard never goes there. They just add more twitch gameplay instead.
I never mentioned LFR so I don't know WTF you going on about it.
There is no skill required. The only thing that is required is for you to be what society deems a "loser." You make a huge time commitment an ignore your real life for set amount of time needed. Skill is not involved and anyone can do. If you hate your family and friends it really isn't all that hard.
So again, if being a loser is appealing then I just don't understand.
Definition of close minded.
o.O Huh?
How is it close minded to have an opinion?
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
More and more people will continue to quit the raiding scene. Blizz should take note and change their main focus to the rest of the game.
Actually they quit raiding because blizzard stopped producing content for it... 3 new raids every year is what a progression guild needs... They have done 2 raids over the last 3 years..
The lack of regular content updates is what killing the game, yet blizzard keeps their investment in the game at minimal, which will certainly put their venerable baby at rest some time in the future...
i think if they actually would have kept investing in the game they would still be over 10 million subs..
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
More and more people will continue to quit the raiding scene. Blizz should take note and change their main focus to the rest of the game.
Actually they quit raiding because blizzard stopped producing content for it... 3 new raids every year is what a progression guild needs... They have done 2 raids over the last 3 years..
The lack of regular content updates is what killing the game, yet blizzard keeps their investment in the game at minimal, which will certainly put their venerable baby at rest some time in the future...
i think if they actually would have kept investing in the game they would still be over 10 million subs..
True, but they need to invest in all aspects of the game, not just raiding. Raiding is the a small part of the game yet they put the best gear behind it to make it relevant. IMO
EDIT: i think the best "raids" WoW ever had was raiding the capital cities to kill the king/warchief back in the day which involved both pve and pvp.
Who's with me that wants World of Warcraft to end so Blizzard can finally start a NEW MMO instead of making new expansions on the same game from 11 years ago. We are dying for a new AAAA (come on you know they get 4 stars) quadruple star game made from blizzard. amirite or amiwrong?
Who's with me that wants World of Warcraft to end so Blizzard can finally start a NEW MMO instead of making new expansions on the same game from 11 years ago. We are dying for a new AAAA (come on you know they get 4 stars) quadruple star game made from blizzard. amirite or amiwrong?
If ending WoW means ending warcraft story then no, keep it coming blizz. Now if only they made third person single player/coop games based on warcraft i would totally follow that path to glory.
WoW doesn't revolve around the whims of raiders, and I say this as someone who basically only logs in to raid. Other people do want content specifically for them, and they are the majority. The game should, logically, prefer its largest groups of users.
The content lull only affects greatly the speed-raiders (top-top of the middle of the pack progression guilds). Many of the lower middle pack and casual raiding guilds/players are progressing through Normal-Heroic-Mythic right now and hasn't been farming it for months on end.
I don't "admire" that kind of people, because I don't think anyone deserves admiration for spending insane amounts of time playing video games, but I can respect what they achieved as a gamer myself.
Top raiding guilds spent much less time raiding than average players.
I've been there... I know what it involves. Overall, what you say is certainly true. But to be world first, you will have to "leave your real life" until the last hardest boss of the hardest raid level is dead. There's no other way. So the top raiding guilds will have "rush" periods during which all of their member's life will be focused on a video game and nothing else.
Yep but max 2 weeks. My /played in WoW was way lower than my friends and I was among world top 10 since release till the end of WotLK.
That's because once you complete the hardest content there is nothing left to prove or achieve. MMOs keep people playing by putting "chase" objectives much like how TCGs have chase cards, only there is no way to buy ones way to the chase objectives in MMOs.
I think that Final Fantasy XIV ARR got the hardmode stuff better balanced than World of Warcraft, to be frank. Probably because the producers behind that game realized the demographic that played the older games have less time to devote to them thanks to family and work life so they segmented the content down into easier to complete chunks.
There is no skill required. The only thing that is required is for you to be what society deems a "loser." You make a huge time commitment an ignore your real life for set amount of time needed. Skill is not involved and anyone can do. If you hate your family and friends it really isn't all that hard.
So again, if being a loser is appealing then I just don't understand.
Definition of close minded.
o.O Huh?
How is it close minded to have an opinion?
Because what you heard was "Definition of closed minded" and what the person meant was, "I identify with what you call a 'loser' and now I'm offended." Simple.
Bring back 10 man mythic and you'll see raiders again.
The ONLY reason anyone plays raids at all is for loot and NO other reason.remove the loot and Wow is a ghost town because in reality the game is not very good,they just manage to have that carrot "loot" that keeps people coming back.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Wow 2? Time for a next-gen MMO that put MMOs on the map?
Continue to support WoW as it is still a big money printing machine, but start to move in another direction for the long term.
I think Overwatch will probably be more of the 1-3 year lifecycle games...all of these shooter games seem to have that sort of shelf life before a new one comes out.
I played and raided in wow in a casualish guild and mainly did 10 mans. Eventually the grind gets to you. Quit a while ago but came back as a lonewolf just because I didnt want to deal with the hassle of getting into a guild.
I left due to the never ending grind wheel..........new expansion, gearup, raid rinse and repeat. Find PUG to raid, die over and over.
Considering the numbers are still healthy by industry standards but ARE declining the ONLY way I would come back is if they implemented a raiding structure progression.
Solo raid - get gear for 5 mans 5 man - get gear for 10 man. 10 man - end gear 25 man - useless. do they even still have them?
I played and raided in wow in a casualish guild and mainly did 10 mans. Eventually the grind gets to you. Quit a while ago but came back as a lonewolf just because I didnt want to deal with the hassle of getting into a guild.
I left due to the never ending grind wheel..........new expansion, gearup, raid rinse and repeat. Find PUG to raid, die over and over.
Considering the numbers are still healthy by industry standards but ARE declining the ONLY way I would come back is if they implemented a raiding structure progression.
Solo raid - get gear for 5 mans 5 man - get gear for 10 man. 10 man - end gear 25 man - useless. do they even still have them?
I find that if the grind gets to you, it's cause you're guild is too raid focused. You basically log in raid, log off, and they probably have a heavy raid schedule because it's the only reason they play.
Things are different in a guild that plays more of the game, IMO. The ones that level alts and run content on the alts, just for fun. Dungeons, Raids, older raids you may have missed for legendary ring, etc.
I had the same issue you had. I'd get burned out from raiding because it's all my guild does. There were cliques in the guild that would hang out but the majority of them barely knew each other and just followed orders during raid times like lemmings.
Once I switched to a more casual-ish guild, it really opened the game up quite a bit for me.
WoW has Flex Raids now. There really aren't any 10 or 25 Man Raids. The Bosses just drop +1 item at certain breakpoints and the difficulty (Damage, HP, etc.) increases with each person you add to the raid. Most groups do raids with at least a 15-Man setup (2 Tanks, 4 Healers, 9 DPS). Mythic Guilds typically will do 25M. I think the Difficulty is locked to 25M even though you can go in with less, but don't quote me on that.
EDIT: I also find I never got this type of burnout in games like EQ because the game was structured in a way that you couldn't just "log in to raid." You had to grind AAs, and unless you wanted to solo in older zones or in places with horrible drops you were doing it in a group. The continued "character advancement" system in that game really forced guilds to be a lot more social than many WoW end-game guilds have tended to be.
I wish more games had an AA system. Maybe now 10k+ AAs, but something that takes more than a week to accomplish. The Artifact System almost could have been that, but it seems like it will be one of those things that you can level up almost completely by the time you hit the level cap... (More info needed, though).
I think for a lot of people, the things that made WoW so attractive compared to games like EQ actually turned out to be burdensome, especially after years of playing it.
Comments
No, not really. Not in WoW, a game that holds your hands through raids with add-ons. I got that feeling in EQ and EQ2, not so much in WoW.
Most guides come from people Alpha and Beta Testing the content, though. DBM is likely to be working for Legion Dungeons and the first raids when the expansion launches, for that reason. WoW is raiding on rails. It's not very exhillerating, and actually kind of annoying with the addons barkng at you... People do it because it's where the gear is at...
In fact raiding in WoW is some of the most innovative i have come across (not sure if that says more about WoW or the rest) especially back in WotLK.
Sure the new LFR is cakewalk.. but that is the whole idea. Let the people who do not raid see the raid content. I do hear that mythic-level raiding do put forth a decent challenge for the ones inclined.
This have been a good conversation
Add-Ons are the standard in WoW. I don't think any Guilds Raid without DBM and other Add-Ons. The content is designed such that those add-ons are pretty much compulsory these days, and the Add-Ons are usually updated for the newer content by the time an expansion launches (due to Alpha/Beta testers) and then tweaked as things move along.
This means that when people are doing Legion Heroics for the first time, it will almost certainly be with DBM and other Add-Ons barking orders at them.
No one gives a hoot about LFR and I'm not sure why you'd just assume that I'm some LFR hero that's using that as a gauge for how raiding is in this game. I've barely run any LFR raids at all...
Add-Ons are not a player to player thing, unless your mind works like a stopwatch and you have near photographic memory and some of the best reflexes on the planet. The Add-Ons negate a lot of the in-build deficiencies of man players by allowing them to play proactively instead of reactively. That's a big deal. This wasn't the case in EQ and EQ2. They also significantly shorten the time to learn the encounters (the in-built stuff in game helps with that as well...).
By the time end of expansion arrives and players are severely geared out at the top end, and speed killing Mythic Bosses of course the Add-Ons at that point don't matter much since they just zerg it down with DPS and it falls over.
For progression, most guilds would get rid of people without add ons for the multiple fails they cause, deaths they have, slow reactions to mechanics, healer pressures they cause, etc. They will simply assume these players are bad, or at worse stupid. No one thinks to assume that a human may be raiding without assistance, and most people don't really remember what it like to play the game that way (the only time they ignore this stuff, is in pushover LFR raids where the mechanics are laughable, or when they significantly over gear the content and can DPS it down quickly/easily).
WoW raiding isn't any more innovative than EQ or EQ2, or other games I've played. The formula is similar. The mechanics are in many cases quite similar. Some of the fight types (council, shared health, etc.) are similar. The concept of going onto the boats to kill stuff for Iron Maiden was not much different than going into the Pits to kill stuff on the first boss in Citadel of Anguish in EQ). The main differentiating factor that I have with WoW is that the game has become extremely add-on dependent.
This is not a player to player thing, unless you actually believe some of those players are superhuman (and they aren't).
I am rating in WoW now. I haven't played EQ2 since before AoD and EQ in a long time. But I still have video that I recorded from the raids there. There were no add-ons barking at me and they certainly weren't required for peak efficiency while raiding, like they are in WoW. Again, the content is being designed against those tools, because they exist (otherwise the content would be trivialized by them), which further cements their position in raiding for this game.
I think the fact that these add-ons are so heavily used and so effective has actually held the game back a bit in terms of encounter design. A lot of things that you can do that are otherwise kind of tricky, are completely trivialized by the add-ons, so Blizzard never goes there. They just add more twitch gameplay instead.
I never mentioned LFR so I don't know WTF you going on about it.
How is it close minded to have an opinion?
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
The lack of regular content updates is what killing the game, yet blizzard keeps their investment in the game at minimal, which will certainly put their venerable baby at rest some time in the future...
i think if they actually would have kept investing in the game they would still be over 10 million subs..
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
EDIT: i think the best "raids" WoW ever had was raiding the capital cities to kill the king/warchief back in the day which involved both pve and pvp.
The content lull only affects greatly the speed-raiders (top-top of the middle of the pack progression guilds). Many of the lower middle pack and casual raiding guilds/players are progressing through Normal-Heroic-Mythic right now and hasn't been farming it for months on end.
I think that Final Fantasy XIV ARR got the hardmode stuff better balanced than World of Warcraft, to be frank. Probably because the producers behind that game realized the demographic that played the older games have less time to devote to them thanks to family and work life so they segmented the content down into easier to complete chunks.
~~ postlarval ~~
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Continue to support WoW as it is still a big money printing machine, but start to move in another direction for the long term.
I think Overwatch will probably be more of the 1-3 year lifecycle games...all of these shooter games seem to have that sort of shelf life before a new one comes out.
I left due to the never ending grind wheel..........new expansion, gearup, raid rinse and repeat. Find PUG to raid, die over and over.
Considering the numbers are still healthy by industry standards but ARE declining the ONLY way I would come back is if they implemented a raiding structure progression.
Solo raid - get gear for 5 mans
5 man - get gear for 10 man.
10 man - end gear
25 man - useless. do they even still have them?
Things are different in a guild that plays more of the game, IMO. The ones that level alts and run content on the alts, just for fun. Dungeons, Raids, older raids you may have missed for legendary ring, etc.
I had the same issue you had. I'd get burned out from raiding because it's all my guild does. There were cliques in the guild that would hang out but the majority of them barely knew each other and just followed orders during raid times like lemmings.
Once I switched to a more casual-ish guild, it really opened the game up quite a bit for me.
WoW has Flex Raids now. There really aren't any 10 or 25 Man Raids. The Bosses just drop +1 item at certain breakpoints and the difficulty (Damage, HP, etc.) increases with each person you add to the raid. Most groups do raids with at least a 15-Man setup (2 Tanks, 4 Healers, 9 DPS). Mythic Guilds typically will do 25M. I think the Difficulty is locked to 25M even though you can go in with less, but don't quote me on that.
EDIT: I also find I never got this type of burnout in games like EQ because the game was structured in a way that you couldn't just "log in to raid." You had to grind AAs, and unless you wanted to solo in older zones or in places with horrible drops you were doing it in a group. The continued "character advancement" system in that game really forced guilds to be a lot more social than many WoW end-game guilds have tended to be.
I wish more games had an AA system. Maybe now 10k+ AAs, but something that takes more than a week to accomplish. The Artifact System almost could have been that, but it seems like it will be one of those things that you can level up almost completely by the time you hit the level cap... (More info needed, though).
I think for a lot of people, the things that made WoW so attractive compared to games like EQ actually turned out to be burdensome, especially after years of playing it.