The only problem with "wait and see", is that we've reached the point where its obvious that no big money Studio has the desire or the understanding of how to make an MMO like those we experienced in this genre's infancy. Those modern gamers who are happy with the current state of affairs, I completely understand your reasoning. For the rest of you, I can't help but doubt your love for this kind of game if you haven't gone out and backed something that sounds like a game you would play - be it Pantheon or any other indie title.
If someone doesn't put their money where their mouth is now, chances are we'll still be seeing WoW and Destiny clones 20 years from now.
Disagree. WoW clones are no more. None even on the horizon so not sure where you are coming up with 20 more years. In fact can't even think of one that has been made now in some time (Rift the last one?). Making games has always been "wait and see". Why should we fund this stuff? MMORPG's seem to be the only genre constantly getting fleeced. Let them make it and if it reviews good then we will buy it. Don't forget the Kickstarter for this game failed MISERABLY like 2 years ago. I get it, you have the game in your sig and you love it to death but my god...
Disagree. WoW clones are no more. None even on the horizon so not sure where you are coming up with 20 more years. In fact can't even think of one that has been made now in some time (Rift the last one?). Making games has always been "wait and see". Why should we fund this stuff? MMORPG's seem to be the only genre constantly getting fleeced. Let them make it and if it reviews good then we will buy it. Don't forget the Kickstarter for this game failed MISERABLY like 2 years ago. I get it, you have the game in your sig and you love it to death but my god...
If you really believe the MMOs that have been coming out up to and including this year, since RIFT, are not derivatives of WoW and the casual paradigm, I think you need your lookers checked.
PS. Pantheon kickstarter failed because they had little to show, were totally unprepared, and next to no one even knew it existed. I didn't even know about the game at that point... and yet it made almost half a million towards an 800k goal. I think you should also reconsider what a kickstarter failing miserably looks like.
Well for me the answer would be launch the finished game. Then I will decide if it is worth my time and money. To many developers are looking for the customer to pay their bills before they even have a playable game. I have backed a couple games here or there but will never back a single MMO with $100 or more because they are to volatile, and few make it to the finish much less are worth what are pledged. On that note I would only back a sub game with no cash shop. Give me everything the game has to offer for $180 a year and I will gladly play your game. No charging extra for bags, etc...
Well first, it would take the people running the website to be smart enough to put an obvious link to where you pledge on their home page.
It's under Join. Why not right at the top of the main page?
Youre probably kidding but I kind of like that they dont have a huge pic asking for money on the front page. That would give me the 'F2P Eye Twitch.' You go in and are treated to read up on lore and design plans, etc before even thinking about giving money.
Also the $100 buy in is a bit steep. I feel they're missing out on further pledges due to this. If they had a pledge around the $50 mark I would most likely pledge and (IMO) others would to. Setting the minimal pledge at $100 your hitting that psychological barrier that only true believers are willing to cross.
Sounds good imo. Maybe 1 copy of the game instead of two with less or no game items and perks for $50? Would be an easier pill to swallow.
I'd support it, but I still have third degree burns from pledging to Shroud of the Avatar.
Maybe after my wounds have healed...
I was looking into Shroud first before running into Pantheon. Sounded great until I read they were releasing a single player client. Thats just heresy for me at this point.
Besides, pretty sure they make more money than i do. They certainly don't need my cash before the final product is complete.
Well I dont know how much you make but this and other kickstarter-style funded games definitely benefit from many small contributions. Its kinda the whole point behind them.
If someone doesn't put their money where their mouth is now, chances are we'll still be seeing WoW and Destiny clones 20 years from now.
Feels like gambling for me as well, lol. Except if I win I get a good game instead of money. That and Ive never done these public funding things before so maybe im also curious to see what this kickstarter-style brand of soul crushing disappointment feels like.
There is also the fact I dont seen any other MMO out there with the same design philosophy. CU maybe but its RvR focused and I wasnt a big fan of WAR to begin with. Gorgon has some slimilar potential but its going B2P. I dont expect Shroud of the Avatar to focus much on group content. Im sure im missing a few but theyre all have something that sounds unappealing. IIRC, there is one where your toon will be able to "die" after a certain time and you can buy his son/daughter to continue or something. So I agree in a way that those who want this style of game should at least consider giving something. Forget the forum access, $5 is well worth the "cause" at this point at the very least.
Sad to see so many arent even considering it though. I expected most but not pretty much everyone.
The only problem with "wait and see", is that we've reached the point where its obvious that no big money Studio has the desire or the understanding of how to make an MMO like those we experienced in this genre's infancy. Those modern gamers who are happy with the current state of affairs, I completely understand your reasoning. For the rest of you, I can't help but doubt your love for this kind of game if you haven't gone out and backed something that sounds like a game you would play - be it Pantheon or any other indie title.
If someone doesn't put their money where their mouth is now, chances are we'll still be seeing WoW and Destiny clones 20 years from now.
And Brad McQuaid is part of that problem. He was the CEO of Sigil and Executive Producer of Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, after all, which sort of started the whole series of massive MMORPG failures in the market these days.
If they feel their game is the bee's knees, then let them go broke and take out extra mortgages and loans funding it themselves. They'll make it back after release, after all.
You're asking people to play Roulette with their hard earned cash. Reality (e.g. "Money doesn't grow on trees.") trumps your opinion.
These developers shouldn't be expecting to see anything until they've delivered a finished product. You're acting like we owe them something simply because we say "we like MMORPG games."
And wow, their fans are getting quite aggressive about it... "I can't help but doubt your love for this kind of game if you haven't gone out and backed something that sounds like a game you would play..."
Can you sound anymore... Ignorant?
People buy products, not ideas. We're consumers, not investment firms, game publishers, or banks. The fact that you think people are obligated to give money for pictures and words for a game that is like a year or more away... Just to prove that they like MMORPGs... That sounds completely asinine. You cannot be serious. You just can't.
Many of us have backed enough games. The numerous boxes from failed MMORPG games in our closets and/or basements display that.
Im backing good, finished and released game. What message do i send with backing unfinished, and maybe, shamefull product? And i have high hopes for this game and loved Vanguard.
The only problem with "wait and see", is that we've reached the point where its obvious that no big money Studio has the desire or the understanding of how to make an MMO like those we experienced in this genre's infancy. Those modern gamers who are happy with the current state of affairs, I completely understand your reasoning. For the rest of you, I can't help but doubt your love for this kind of game if you haven't gone out and backed something that sounds like a game you would play - be it Pantheon or any other indie title.
If someone doesn't put their money where their mouth is now, chances are we'll still be seeing WoW and Destiny clones 20 years from now.
And Brad McQuaid is part of that problem. He was the CEO of Sigil and Executive Producer of Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, after all, which sort of started the whole series of massive MMORPG failures in the market these days.
If they feel their game is the bee's knees, then let them go broke and take out extra mortgages and loans funding it themselves. They'll make it back after release, after all.
You're asking people to play Roulette with their hard earned cash. Reality (e.g. "Money doesn't grow on trees.") trumps your opinion.
These developers shouldn't be expecting to see anything until they've delivered a finished product. You're acting like we owe them something simply because we say "we like MMORPG games."
And wow, their fans are getting quite aggressive about it... "I can't help but doubt your love for this kind of game if you haven't gone out and backed something that sounds like a game you would play..."
Can you sound anymore... Ignorant?
People buy products, not ideas. We're consumers, not investment firms, game publishers, or banks. The fact that you think people are obligated to give money for pictures and words for a game that is like a year or more away... Just to prove that they like MMORPGs... That sounds completely asinine. You cannot be serious. You just can't.
Many of us have backed enough games. The numerous boxes from failed MMORPG games in our closets and/or basements display that.
I'm glad you're happy with the way things are going in the industry. Unfortunately, many of us aren't as satisfied and smug playing lobby games as you appear to be.
People don't owe any developers anything, but I think we owe it to ourselves to help small time companies get off the ground if they stand to make something we want to play. You act like I suggested you pledge your first born son. I'm talking about a couple of bucks. Its something to consider for those of us who are actually tired of being conned into playing shallow games, so clearly it doesn't apply to you.
I just watched some pre-pre alpha footage of the game and I don't understand the hype. The animations and graphics look like something you'd find in a web browser game. I get it's a pre-pre alpha but that doesn't really bode well, the combat looks reallllly boring. I'm not a fan of over the top animation (BnS, Tera) but I mean christ, it makes WoW combat look thrilling by contrast. I think people are in a lull right now in terms of good MMO's so they're attaching themselves to this game in hopes that it's everything they ever wanted - like every MMO release.
After Star Citizen, I'm not backing anything else. The scam artists known as CIG have completely turned me off of Kickstarter.
Honestly, I think the time for this formula has passed. I simply can't see a game like this be sustained with the kind of support a proper living MMO needs.
It'll launch as niche game - and it will start shrinking in less than a year.
So, even if I felt like supporting this throwback title - I would have to be ok with wasting my money.
I really have to believe that the project is going to deliver on their promises and so far its too early to tell.
I wasn't impressed by the (pre)-(pre)-alpha footage and I'm not willing to excuse it with "its an early build" when devs speaks about a 2017 launch. There has been far too many kickstarter and early access title that have unrealistic launch estimation and if they can't give me realistic estimations I'm not giving them any money.
I'm comfortable with the idea that a game not happening because I didn't pledge $30-$100, if that's how razor thin the difference between success and failure is, the game probably wouldn't make it anyway.
This has nothing to do with me not trusting Brad Mcquaid, because I haven't trusted Richard Garriott, Mark Jacobs or J. Todd Coleman with my money either. So far the only people I trusted with kickstarter was Larian Studios and Inxile Entertainment. What I paid for darkest dungeon and grim dawn was more about getting them on 50% discount few months before launch.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
I think the original question is what would it take? For me to join their forums I would have to overcome my aversion to Paypal. They should be able to take my credit card without that. For me to pay $100 or more, I would need for them to not move the goalpost on game access. No more of you get pre-alpha access but this is pre-pre-pre-pre alpha.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
I'm comfortable with the idea that a game not happening because I didn't pledge $30-$100, if that's how razor thin the difference between success and failure is, the game probably wouldn't make it anyway.
I dont think youre grasping the point behind crowd funding. Its like voting, one contribution is next to meaningless, but many meaningless contributions can make a difference. Not that im trying to convince anyone as there are many valid reasons for not feeling comfortable giving money away to this particular team. However saying it wont make it anyway if it cant survive without your particular contribution is the same logic that kills potentially great projects.
Honestly, I think the time for this formula has passed. I simply can't see a game like this be sustained with the kind of support a proper living MMO needs.
It'll launch as niche game - and it will start shrinking in less than a year.
So, even if I felt like supporting this throwback title - I would have to be ok with wasting my money.
There are plenty of players playing old school everquest and even Dark Age of Camelot.
A "throwback" game with some modern sensibilities could very well sustain an active player base.
Remember, they know that they aren't going to get 200k people. They are looking for less. It seems they are clear about their audience and the idea of the game being a niche game.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Personally am just tired in believing any of these old guys that created good games in the far past.
We have one guy making a space sim that has changed how the game he wanted to make after he received millions in backing. Now there is no proof they even have a working engine to build that sim!
Then we have another that created a game decades ago that help kick start the MMORPG world for us. Yet they make sure to silence any that don't say nice things about the game or dev on the forums for the game.
Then we have another that created one of the best games of our world but then helped to destroy one of the best Star Wars games ever made to a lot of us. Created another game called Vanguard that lasted as long as my last bowl of oatmeal. Not to bring up how some cash went up in drugs.
The question shouldn't be what will it take to pledge. The question should be how can players trust any of you after what you all did to us loyal gamers?
Honestly, I think the time for this formula has passed. I simply can't see a game like this be sustained with the kind of support a proper living MMO needs.
It'll launch as niche game - and it will start shrinking in less than a year.
So, even if I felt like supporting this throwback title - I would have to be ok with wasting my money.
There are plenty of players playing old school everquest and even Dark Age of Camelot.
A "throwback" game with some modern sensibilities could very well sustain an active player base.
Remember, they know that they aren't going to get 200k people. They are looking for less. It seems they are clear about their audience and the idea of the game being a niche game.
The issue has less to do with whether or not there are plenty, but on the (subjective) definition of plenty and the realities of whether or not that "plenty" is good enough.
For many games, plenty wasn't good enough. Not even close.
The number of gamers clamoring for a "new EverQuest" is not "plenty" in the grand scheme of things, and without some serious changes that are very unlike OG EQ many of them will get a dose of the harsh reality that was EQ when this game releases... However, they may be able to carve out a niche that can support the game and a few servers. Hopefully it isn't an "EQ for Mac" type niche...
Many people here had a chance to experience EQ at the height of its popularity back in the day, but didn't. The graphics aren't really that big a deal, IMO. Many of us just don't have the kind of time to dedicate to a game like that, or simply don't want to dedicate that amount of time to one game. People like being able to log off of one game and go play another. My guild in L2 did it all the time. Dailies, Raids, Seige, etc. over? Let's all hop on ArcheAge or NW to do some stuff there!!!
Personally, I'm not ready to be a slave to an MMORPG anymore, which is basically what EQ required of you.
I do like the "take a break when you get burned out, and catch up in a couple of weeks when you return later" experience of WoW and other games these days. It makes more sense to plenty more people, which is why that has grown to be the dominant formula.
I think the "discontent" with current games is a bit overblown on forms like this. Most MMORPG players don't play on forums, only the ones more prone to complain or praise, in whichever proportion that happens to manifest itself.
And even then, threads here tend to be dominated by a relatively small subset of power posters (getting even smaller/more targeted when you move into game-specific forums)...
On more general forums, especially genre-general forums... People do not miss EQ the way people here would have you believe.
At first glance it doesn't look like the revenue model is defined yet. I wont pledge anything until a company strongly states front and center on their site that the game will not be a cash shop, not pay 2 win etc. I want a subscription model that is simple and lets the players focus on the game rather than Amazon like shopping within the game.
Ah, and it looks like it's going to be F2P for the first 10 levels. No thank you, don't want the spam and don't want to deal with the whiny 13 year olds. If a player can't spend money to buy the game then they don't have any business playing a game like this.
Ah, and it looks like it's going to be F2P for the first 10 levels. No thank you, don't want the spam and don't want to deal with the whiny 13 year olds. If a player can't spend money to buy the game then they don't have any business playing a game like this.
lol if that's all it takes for you to not play then good riddance.
Personally am just tired in believing any of these old guys that created good games in the far past.
We have one guy making a space sim that has changed how the game he wanted to make after he received millions in backing. Now there is no proof they even have a working engine to build that sim!
Then we have another that created a game decades ago that help kick start the MMORPG world for us. Yet they make sure to silence any that don't say nice things about the game or dev on the forums for the game.
Then we have another that created one of the best games of our world but then helped to destroy one of the best Star Wars games ever made to a lot of us. Created another game called Vanguard that lasted as long as my last bowl of oatmeal. Not to bring up how some cash went up in drugs.
The question shouldn't be what will it take to pledge. The question should be how can players trust any of you after what you all did to us loyal gamers?
You make some good points but blaming the mess that was SWG on Brad is wrong. He left SOE to form Sigil in 2002, a year before SWG was released.
"I became vice president of premium games and then later I was chief creative officer. I was in charge of all subscription-based games that we were working on.
But I just did not feel hands-on at all. Star Wars Galaxies was being made out in Austin, so I'd fly to Austin all the time, but it was like I would just come in, talk to the producer, get a quick update, and move on to the next one. I didn't feel like I was making games anymore. I felt like I was just checking up on the people who were actually making games. I missed that and being part of the creative process, so when I could exit gracefully, I did".
Personally am just tired in believing any of these old guys that created good games in the far past.
We have one guy making a space sim that has changed how the game he wanted to make after he received millions in backing. Now there is no proof they even have a working engine to build that sim!
Then we have another that created a game decades ago that help kick start the MMORPG world for us. Yet they make sure to silence any that don't say nice things about the game or dev on the forums for the game.
Then we have another that created one of the best games of our world but then helped to destroy one of the best Star Wars games ever made to a lot of us. Created another game called Vanguard that lasted as long as my last bowl of oatmeal. Not to bring up how some cash went up in drugs.
The question shouldn't be what will it take to pledge. The question should be how can players trust any of you after what you all did to us loyal gamers?
You make some good points but blaming the mess that was SWG on Brad is wrong. He left SOE to form Sigil in 2002, a year before SWG was released.
Then I will say sorry about the SWG and add him to one of the guys that brought us a great game in SWG!
Ah, and it looks like it's going to be F2P for the first 10 levels. No thank you, don't want the spam and don't want to deal with the whiny 13 year olds. If a player can't spend money to buy the game then they don't have any business playing a game like this.
Its a trial. Itll probably have the typical trial limitations as any other game with mail, chatting, etc. As for the business model theyre pretty set on P2P and even seem to dislike cash shops. Obviously theyre not ruling it out but the latest "update" on that is maybe 5-10 years after release and only if its needed to keep paying the bills.
Not exactly a binding contract but its probably about as close as anyone will get to guaranteeing a P2P, cash-shop free game that makes every single non-vendortrash item an obtainable goal in the game. I think FFXIV is the closest to that and those double dipping bastards always supported and planned "cosmetic" cash shops from the beginning.
Comments
If someone doesn't put their money where their mouth is now, chances are we'll still be seeing WoW and Destiny clones 20 years from now.
PS. Pantheon kickstarter failed because they had little to show, were totally unprepared, and next to no one even knew it existed. I didn't even know about the game at that point... and yet it made almost half a million towards an 800k goal. I think you should also reconsider what a kickstarter failing miserably looks like.
Finish the game, then I'll decide whether of not I want to buy and/or subscribe.
There is also the fact I dont seen any other MMO out there with the same design philosophy. CU maybe but its RvR focused and I wasnt a big fan of WAR to begin with. Gorgon has some slimilar potential but its going B2P. I dont expect Shroud of the Avatar to focus much on group content. Im sure im missing a few but theyre all have something that sounds unappealing. IIRC, there is one where your toon will be able to "die" after a certain time and you can buy his son/daughter to continue or something. So I agree in a way that those who want this style of game should at least consider giving something. Forget the forum access, $5 is well worth the "cause" at this point at the very least.
Sad to see so many arent even considering it though. I expected most but not pretty much everyone.
And Brad McQuaid is part of that problem. He was the CEO of Sigil and Executive Producer of Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, after all, which sort of started the whole series of massive MMORPG failures in the market these days.
If they feel their game is the bee's knees, then let them go broke and take out extra mortgages and loans funding it themselves. They'll make it back after release, after all.
You're asking people to play Roulette with their hard earned cash. Reality (e.g. "Money doesn't grow on trees.") trumps your opinion.
These developers shouldn't be expecting to see anything until they've delivered a finished product. You're acting like we owe them something simply because we say "we like MMORPG games."
And wow, their fans are getting quite aggressive about it... "I can't help but doubt your love for this kind of game if you haven't gone out and backed something that sounds like a game you would play..."
Can you sound anymore... Ignorant?
People buy products, not ideas. We're consumers, not investment firms, game publishers, or banks. The fact that you think people are obligated to give money for pictures and words for a game that is like a year or more away... Just to prove that they like MMORPGs... That sounds completely asinine. You cannot be serious. You just can't.
Many of us have backed enough games. The numerous boxes from failed MMORPG games in our closets and/or basements display that.
What message do i send with backing unfinished, and maybe, shamefull product?
And i have high hopes for this game and loved Vanguard.
People don't owe any developers anything, but I think we owe it to ourselves to help small time companies get off the ground if they stand to make something we want to play. You act like I suggested you pledge your first born son. I'm talking about a couple of bucks. Its something to consider for those of us who are actually tired of being conned into playing shallow games, so clearly it doesn't apply to you.
After Star Citizen, I'm not backing anything else. The scam artists known as CIG have completely turned me off of Kickstarter.
It'll launch as niche game - and it will start shrinking in less than a year.
So, even if I felt like supporting this throwback title - I would have to be ok with wasting my money.
I wasn't impressed by the (pre)-(pre)-alpha footage and I'm not willing to excuse it with "its an early build" when devs speaks about a 2017 launch. There has been far too many kickstarter and early access title that have unrealistic launch estimation and if they can't give me realistic estimations I'm not giving them any money.
I'm comfortable with the idea that a game not happening because I didn't pledge $30-$100, if that's how razor thin the difference between success and failure is, the game probably wouldn't make it anyway.
This has nothing to do with me not trusting Brad Mcquaid, because I haven't trusted Richard Garriott, Mark Jacobs or J. Todd Coleman with my money either. So far the only people I trusted with kickstarter was Larian Studios and Inxile Entertainment. What I paid for darkest dungeon and grim dawn was more about getting them on 50% discount few months before launch.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
A "throwback" game with some modern sensibilities could very well sustain an active player base.
Remember, they know that they aren't going to get 200k people. They are looking for less. It seems they are clear about their audience and the idea of the game being a niche game.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
We have one guy making a space sim that has changed how the game he wanted to make after he received millions in backing. Now there is no proof they even have a working engine to build that sim!
Then we have another that created a game decades ago that help kick start the MMORPG world for us. Yet they make sure to silence any that don't say nice things about the game or dev on the forums for the game.
Then we have another that created one of the best games of our world but then helped to destroy one of the best Star Wars games ever made to a lot of us. Created another game called Vanguard that lasted as long as my last bowl of oatmeal. Not to bring up how some cash went up in drugs.
The question shouldn't be what will it take to pledge. The question should be how can players trust any of you after what you all did to us loyal gamers?
Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event
4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.
http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/
Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!
For many games, plenty wasn't good enough. Not even close.
The number of gamers clamoring for a "new EverQuest" is not "plenty" in the grand scheme of things, and without some serious changes that are very unlike OG EQ many of them will get a dose of the harsh reality that was EQ when this game releases... However, they may be able to carve out a niche that can support the game and a few servers. Hopefully it isn't an "EQ for Mac" type niche...
Many people here had a chance to experience EQ at the height of its popularity back in the day, but didn't. The graphics aren't really that big a deal, IMO. Many of us just don't have the kind of time to dedicate to a game like that, or simply don't want to dedicate that amount of time to one game. People like being able to log off of one game and go play another. My guild in L2 did it all the time. Dailies, Raids, Seige, etc. over? Let's all hop on ArcheAge or NW to do some stuff there!!!
Personally, I'm not ready to be a slave to an MMORPG anymore, which is basically what EQ required of you.
I do like the "take a break when you get burned out, and catch up in a couple of weeks when you return later" experience of WoW and other games these days. It makes more sense to plenty more people, which is why that has grown to be the dominant formula.
I think the "discontent" with current games is a bit overblown on forms like this. Most MMORPG players don't play on forums, only the ones more prone to complain or praise, in whichever proportion that happens to manifest itself.
And even then, threads here tend to be dominated by a relatively small subset of power posters (getting even smaller/more targeted when you move into game-specific forums)...
On more general forums, especially genre-general forums... People do not miss EQ the way people here would have you believe.
You make some good points but blaming the mess that was SWG on Brad is wrong. He left SOE to form Sigil in 2002, a year before SWG was released.
The below is from an interview by Brad http://uk.ign.com/articles/2014/02/13/the-inside-story-of-how-a-major-mmo-went-wrong?page=2
"I became vice president of premium games and then later I was chief creative officer. I was in charge of all subscription-based games that we were working on.
But I just did not feel hands-on at all. Star Wars Galaxies was being made out in Austin, so I'd fly to Austin all the time, but it was like I would just come in, talk to the producer, get a quick update, and move on to the next one. I didn't feel like I was making games anymore. I felt like I was just checking up on the people who were actually making games. I missed that and being part of the creative process, so when I could exit gracefully, I did".
Edit: added interview.
Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event
4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.
http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/
Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!
Not exactly a binding contract but its probably about as close as anyone will get to guaranteeing a P2P, cash-shop free game that makes every single non-vendortrash item an obtainable goal in the game. I think FFXIV is the closest to that and those double dipping bastards always supported and planned "cosmetic" cash shops from the beginning.