What kind of response to your post do you expect from non AI experts? Let me ask you, do you consider game dev's top shelf? Do you expect any programmer and their dog to be knowledgeable about the subject?
I've talked on this point before and broken down interim alternatives as well.
The biggest problem with creating a more complex AI to manage such things is how complex it has to be and how much detail it has to track and respond to on top of the regular game world functions. It's basically making the game analyze itself to find the next step with thousands of people constantly messing with the data.
It's still a good ideal to work towards, just it takes time to overcome hurdles that limit both the servers and the client interactions.
There are other more actionable choices that could be implemented though.
One example being "open nodes" in a semi-static environment which are for the most part the same as you'd expect as a normal node for spawning mobs, except that it does not have a specific thing it spawns.
Instead, the game world is littered with these nodes and uses a library of NPCs, mobs, doodads, and quest events to procedurally generate a variety of activities. As a standalone mechanic it would be something to randomize user experience, but can also be tied to themed libraries or a pool of quest-specific events so that players can still obtain a more free-form experience out of a technically static system.
That's a very interesting concept. It seems to me that this would go far in driving AI that is keyed more to MOBs. Sort of a "the Force" sort of thing for NPCs and the game world.
You seem stuck on watching a movie or reading a book type of
narrative story telling, I am referring to the story I experience in the game
actions and reactions to the world.. my gameplay story not written anywhere and
not spoken by an npc static or random or whatever, I am referring to the
adventure of interacting with a world that is more lifelike than currently
exists.
It does not matter.
How can you tell whether the story is written anywhere if the AI is as good as humans? Today, the only way you can tell is that a scripted story has dialogue and action way better than what AI can do.
In fact, if you have dynamic AI, you can essentially getting scripted static (today's) story generated dynamically on the fly. So there should be no difference in terms of the experience.
I've talked on this point before and broken down interim alternatives as well.
The biggest problem with creating a more complex AI to manage such things is how complex it has to be and how much detail it has to track and respond to on top of the regular game world functions. It's basically making the game analyze itself to find the next step with thousands of people constantly messing with the data.
It's still a good ideal to work towards, just it takes time to overcome hurdles that limit both the servers and the client interactions.
There are other more actionable choices that could be implemented though.
One example being "open nodes" in a semi-static environment which are for the most part the same as you'd expect as a normal node for spawning mobs, except that it does not have a specific thing it spawns.
Instead, the game world is littered with these nodes and uses a library of NPCs, mobs, doodads, and quest events to procedurally generate a variety of activities. As a standalone mechanic it would be something to randomize user experience, but can also be tied to themed libraries or a pool of quest-specific events so that players can still obtain a more free-form experience out of a technically static system.
I may be taking this to a different level, and in fact I'm taking this to a similar place that my "Dungeon AI" is at.
But suppose that you have a large forest, and just outside that forest is a player city. In that forest is a small clan of NPC Orcs. And this clan has an Orc Leader who's grown enough to command a much larger force (through this Orc's own AI). (But the game needs more than normal, even expanded, AI to control a world event.)
So this Orc Leader gets wind of the player city via a few Orcs from his clan having "seen" it and returned with that "knowledge". (I think NPCs should gain knowledge, and then pass it on/around.)
The Orc Leader desires to gain the riches in the player city (part of it's own AI).
So this Orc Leader "sends" a "tell" out and the area "Open Nodes", and those Nodes take on a chance to spawn Orcs instead of Deer...sometimes. These spawned Orcs will be directed to move to the Orc Clan's home and join the Clan. This also would simulate that the Orcs are eating the deer because of the lower numbers, and if the game places importance on food for players this could be an important thing.
Players may intercept these Orc spawn and kill them, and eventually might realize that something is going on (Orcs on the warpath).
And should this Orc Leader build enough forces before players find out, it leads the entire Clan to war against the player city.
Also, while the Orc Clan is building numbers, the "library" you've mentioned acts in conjunction with the Orc Leader's AI. There's a need for new constructions at the Orc Clan's home. They need Mats. So the Library directs Orcs in where to go for basic Mats for construction, and where to build what (with some randomness), and they build a depot for Mats to draw from for the constructions, smithies and crafting units, defensive walls and towers, extra living space or "temples" type stuff, armaments, and whatever.
All along the way, players may discover the threat and react. They might destroy the Orcs, they might have to call for players from other cities to help them, they might have their city attacked, maybe even looted. (I'd suggest not player homes, but city owned warehoused supplies (basically a depot for the city's owned and taxed wealth.) The players might conquer the Orc Clan, or raid it for it's Mats in it's depot, raid it's temple or other key spots, etc.
And none of it would feel scripted, or like it has to have a particular outcome. Players might end it before it really gets started, and no one would worry that the event didn't happen "as planned". Because it's entirely open. And it can happen again elsewhere.
Heck, maybe while the players are concentrating on the Orcs, a new menace is brewing elsewhere nearby. The Undead King cometh!
What you're describing is something similar to EQNext's emergent AI. I was looking forward to how the emergent AI would create content, change the behavior of NPC's and how players would react to those variable behaviors. Dynamic AI is the solution to enhance and excel PVE gameplay in my opinion. I also want to mention it would be a smart design choice to stick with one core gameplay, PVE or PVP. PVE gameplay can absolutely produce dynamic content.
I am currently designing an mmorpg (hobby right now, design phase not development phase yet) that uses a blend of dynamic and static content. The dynamic content is is birthed out of player influence in the world based off an Adventure Mechanic. Content is currently introduced in different non linear layers giving a vast array of different gameplay experiences to the player.
Dynamic Content in my proposal for my game design triggers off other static content that is available to the player. Player influence does not come as individually but as a groups of group of players. In other words, when you log in you're not the hero, you're simply a citizen of the world taking up arms. You have to earn to be the hero. And many more players can share the hero status as well.
There are two types of Dynamic Content that is birthed from player influence. Dynamic Content is usually a zone or world based event.
Temporary Dynamic Content - This is content that has the opportunity to be produced by Missives and Adventures. This is were something is changed in a zone for a duration and then turned back to normal over a span of a few weeks to a month.
Permanent Dynamic Content - This is content that has the opportunity to progress the story of the world dictated by the players of that world. Permanent Dynamic Content is produced through Adventures and can be zone or world events.
The idea is more player choice of how they want to interact and be involved in the world around them. Thus this can create replayability and commitment to the game and the community.
Below is what my vision of how content is produced to the player statically and dynamically for PVE gameplay.
Missive Board
Missives are generally the normal 'quests' that we experience in most modern mmos, which are ultimately tasks. Missive boards are your lowest form of content and provide minimal to medium experience but can reward in nice coin. There are Missive Boards in every city. Missives are tasks that NPCs or players that can post to aid them with some task. Missives would include: Bounties, Lost and Found, Exterminate and Harvesting. Missives are static quests and are soloable to small group content. Missives can have a mediocre impact from player influence to trigger dynamic content.
Personal Quests
Personal Quests act as a chose your own story book. I would say it best represents Guild Wars 2 Personal storyline but packaged in a different way. There are three Personal Quests that each player has access to. A Personal Quest for your Race, your class and Lore of the world. Personal Quests grant improved racial traits, epic class skills/spells and valuable information from the lore that can help you further in the game. Personal Quests are soloable and do not affect player influence nor can trigger dynamic content.
Adventures
Adventures are the bed rock of dynamic content, player choice and player influence. Adventures are an avenue to help the player and their group to have an immersive experienced in the world and create different dynamic content. Adventures can trigger Permanent or Temporary dynamic content based off the success or failure of multiple groups taken apart in the Adventures.
For an example - Group 1 is in the Riverlands and started an Adventure to find to infiltrate a small sect that is in an allegiance to larger NPC faction. In order to do that, you must seek a Noon Stone at the shores of the eastern Riverlands to barter to get into one of their meetings.
However, in a zone south of Group 1 there are multiple groups taken apart in Adventures to destroy all orcish scouting parties. Unfortunately, those groups failed that Adventure and will trigger temporary dynamic content. In the Riverlands there are small encampments of NPC vendors that sell goods and items that a player may need as a convenience and/or may offer buffs in some capacity or information about certain things in game. These encampments could also provide a way to sell items instead of treking back a distance to town in an effort to save time. Since the groups failed those southern zones Adventures, the Orcs will come in full force to raid and pillage encampments or small villages in the Riverlands.
This opens up a choice for Group 1. Do they A: continue on their current adventure and trust that other players in the zone will defend those encampments from the incoming Orc raids. Or B: discontinue their current Adventure to help defend these encampments because those encampments have a value to those players. If Groups cannot defend these encampments then they are gone for a time and become orc outposts to further flood the Riverlands of Orcs.
Adventures can span gameplay in one zone or through multiple adjacent zones or sometimes all over the world. Adventures would incorporate epic travel.
- These are just on the surface ideas and I believe it would make a fun experience for gameplay while you get to enjoy static and dynamic content at the same time. I hope someone will take the time read and appreciate the thought. -
There is a shortage of competent programmers in the market. When word of this got out, the market was flooded with incompetent programmers. I hate giving out these solutions, because this is what I get Paid to do. One server handles the physics and object interaction. Another separate server handles random plot generation of implementation of plot. There will be added hardware cost, writing costs, programming costs, and testing costs. But it can be done, I'm trying it. Left 4 Dead had a technique called the The Director that could randomise encounters. This system tried to watch the player and come up with an attack path that caught the player off guard. A simple example of a plot generator can be found at Justin B Rye's Star Trek Plot Generator.
Each segment of the plot would be tied to a database record. This is basically what I am doing. There are X basic quest types Kill, Delivery, Collect, Escort, Locate, Defend, Interact, and Craft-skill. Why this limited list because they mate well with a database and records. In a Themepark they can be randomly generated the same way as plots.
Some might say that a sandbox by it's definition doesn’t have any of this. Everything that you do in a sandbox can be thought of a quest (like the achievements in Minecraft). Every sandbox begins with the unspoken quests “Go forth and explore the world”, then “Find your place in it.” When you go out and equip your character with the tools and gear that match your playstyle and begin work on developing your character you are on these unspoken quests.
The random plot may generate a low level thug, that builds his empire up to a major player in the game world. Therefor becoming a threat to your character, that could be dealt with. Now watch this idea be stolen out from under me.
Post edited by Konfess on
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
One of the first
things I look at in MMO's is how content is created. As example:
A game like WoW uses
very static content, it is generated by the developers and then released to the
players as is. Quests, Areas, NPC's are all laid out in a set path of progression
that only changes when the developers make a change through an update or expansion.
Archeage starts with
a very similar set up for the first 30 levels or so. but after that becomes
something very different, while the world and locations and areas remain static
the content is driven by PvP. PvP is the focus of everything post 30 gathering,
trade runs, exploring, sailing, Piracy are all rooted in PvP which adds a
dynamic element to all of these. Even housing and auction are PvP-centric from
competition for land ownership to owning land in contested/pvp areas.
Guildwars2 I think
is technically static though the "Dynamic events" do branch based on
player interaction the locations are static and the loops are fairly short so
repeat often. the developers also release Episodic updates regularly which
kinda adds a dynamic element.
What I am really
hoping and looking for is dynamic AI, that is, smart enough AI that it can
create content and things for Players to do. that it can recognize needs and wants
and recruit players to help, or better, AI that was smart enough to carry out
their own desires.
Imagine a Troll
chief set on domination and an extreme hatred for elves. What if the Troll was
able to see the needs of his home and people. need to fortify his walls. he
passes on the need to another NPC who then begins to oversee the
fortifications. The Troll could then solicit the help of either Players or
other Troll grunt NPC's to gather the materials for the fortifications. and
when enough was gathered this could actually add walls to the front of the
city, or new towers, or whatever. Now what if the Troll chief decided his city
was safe enough and was ready to go on the offensive, he could recruit an army
of warriors NPC or Player and begin a march on the Elven city. Now the Elven
leader needs to decide what the best defense is. is the city strong enough to
repel an attack , is the best defense an offense and attempt to take out the
trolls before they get to the city. how many soldiers do the elves have how
many players can she recruit? Now imaging these things could all play out with
or without players. how long it all takes and the outcome could all be affected
by players but I want the world to live and go on without me. Imaging logging
in to find the Elven city is almost destroyed, the Elven leader is imprisoned
and you as an elf are now little more than a slave to the trolls, what things
would the trolls have for you to do, what tasks maybe the Elven leader ask of
you if you visit her in prison, maybe you could help her escape to an outpost
the surviving elves have created when they fled. Imagine what the Elven
leader would need to do to begin rebuilding her nation, to build the forces to
retake their capital.
So far no game
exists that could do this, and the tech may just not be there yet. Or perhaps I
am alone in wanting this type of world.
I look at what StoryBricks and EQN were trying
to do I see a glimmer of hope. I would imagine if a game at least takes a step
in this direction with any success it could encourage other developers to
expand on this type of content generation.
This is, in my
opinion, exactly what the industry needs to move forward. It’s the area that
has seen the least innovation (if any)over the years.
Intelligent characters that live in the world
that have wants and needs, npc's that remember the actions of characters and
react accordingly, npc's who interact with each other with emerging behaviors
that generate content for players to interact with. This creates content
real-time, always changing and evolving, as players fulfill needs of npc's and
in turn may negatively affect other npc’s and where npc's with differing drives
and motivations come into conflict and that conflict generates more
content for players in an ever changing world. Suddenly we are not as reliant
on the developers to spend vast resources creating content for us to chew
through in a matter of weeks or days. nor are we reliant on the whims of other
players and populations to generate PvP content. It does not mean that neither
of these will exist, both pvp and developer content can and should exist but
potentially in more meaningful ways. while the npc's and the living world
continue to provide content dynamically in a living breathing world.
I can't see how you can call GW2 events static. For what they're supposed to do they work rather well. Yes the story itself is static but to develop an ever changing story is beyond what can be done other then phasing and have the story change based on your choices like the old story books when your decision determined what page you would skip to. Every AI serves to compliment the story or immerse someone in the environment.
Also this would create the type of phasing problems ESO has. Two players making different decisions and having their own world created from those decisions would create to different worlds that would be difficult to group in. Now multiply that by a group of 5 or 10 players playing together. One player can't go to an NPC because he killed him or is pissed off at him because he killed a friend NPC, so that potential story line is no longer available to him but is available to his friend.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
And none of it would feel scripted, or like it has to have a particular outcome.
It does. You (a human) just scripted the whole thing.
And even scripted stories do not have to have a particular outcome. You can have multiple outcomes, as commonly done in single player games.
That's not scripted when it's based on chance and what the current situation in the game world, in that location, is. It could happen, or may not happen. No one would know, no one would be able to predict the future, not even the GMs.
Multiple outcome possibilities are a desire of most gamers. That's good right? But in this case, the outcome might be anything from 1 to 10 all inclusive (on a scale of 10). Most SP games are either 1, 5, or 10 only. And most of your Themepark MMO's are 10 only. Some few have a similar setup as SP games, with limited outcome possibilities based on a pre-designed script.
What I suggested, like I said, has variable outcomes of "anything could happen". In fact, based on chance, it may never have happened at all. Yet the game would obviously want to be designed that things happen, and something else would be happening somewhere else. But no one would know what that is exactly, or where.
What kind of response to your post do you expect from non AI experts? Let me ask you, do you consider game dev's top shelf? Do you expect any programmer and their dog to be knowledgeable about the subject?
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I've talked on this point before and broken down interim alternatives as well.
The biggest problem with creating a more complex AI to manage such things is how complex it has to be and how much detail it has to track and respond to on top of the regular game world functions. It's basically making the game analyze itself to find the next step with thousands of people constantly messing with the data.
It's still a good ideal to work towards, just it takes time to overcome hurdles that limit both the servers and the client interactions.
There are other more actionable choices that could be implemented though.
One example being "open nodes" in a semi-static environment which are for the most part the same as you'd expect as a normal node for spawning mobs, except that it does not have a specific thing it spawns.
Instead, the game world is littered with these nodes and uses a library of NPCs, mobs, doodads, and quest events to procedurally generate a variety of activities. As a standalone mechanic it would be something to randomize user experience, but can also be tied to themed libraries or a pool of quest-specific events so that players can still obtain a more free-form experience out of a technically static system.
Great post, very interesting idea. Engineering complex AI that would make a fluid game play experience would be a challenging concept for sure. I think for just the sake of being random, it wouldn't provide a fluid game play experience. I was really interested in EQNext's emergent AI of how NPC's would behave differently depending on what the majority of players may act in a certain area inside of a zone.
I personally believe that complex AI should take the form of how NPC's will react and adapt in combat, rather then pulling from a library to randomized certain NPC types and events for a thematic location. It would be interesting to see different types of NPC's behave differenty while in combat. Orcs would be a more offensive in battle and have no mind for defense. Their motto would be, kill them quick before they kill you. A lizardman NPC would be more of a strategic fighter in that they would counter your moves until/if they figure out you strategy. Of course, with Complex Combat AI you would have to have complimentary Combat Mechanics.
I also think one solution to have your proposed idea work in a fluid environment while still allowing the open node system to pull from a library of thematic NPC's, is to have great level design for each zone. Here is a quick example. The Lizardmen are more territorial in their jungle, meaning they are more well guarded their strongholds and are vicious on the edge of the jungle to let any outsider in. Perhaps these Lizardmen enslaved other types of NPCs or even hired sell swords to protect their jungle to ad more variety to the NPC library. In the adjacent zone next to the jungle is a plains land where lizardmen also roam but behave differently because they are out of their element. I think that would be an interesting way to tackle complex AI as well. What do you think?
To me I think scripting the spawn points + procedural quest are the best way to go.
For example the system works
Spawn point 1. Naturally has foxes, bears, wolves, deer and etc if there isn't NPC or PC humanoid settlements beyond a certain number.
Orcs work like a virus. Infect a spawn and form an orc camp at 20. Orcs spawn at 10 per hour. At 50 orcs it becomes a small town. At 100 orcs it's a city. At 120 20 of the orcs split off to an adjecent spawn points . At 4 adjecent spawn points it becomes a nation.
You have local NPCS give quest related to the orc menace and orcs related quest appear in near by towns.
To me I think scripting the spawn points + procedural quest are the best way to go.
For example the system works
Spawn point 1. Naturally has foxes, bears, wolves, deer and etc if there isn't NPC or PC humanoid settlements beyond a certain number.
Orcs work like a virus. Infect a spawn and form an orc camp at 20. Orcs spawn at 10 per hour. At 50 orcs it becomes a small town. At 100 orcs it's a city. At 120 20 of the orcs split off to an adjecent spawn points . At 4 adjecent spawn points it becomes a nation.
You have local NPCS give quest related to the orc menace and orcs related quest appear in near by towns.
That's an interesting option. In a sense it's very much like Deivos's idea.....
--------------- Deivos said: One example being "open nodes" in a semi-static environment which are
for the most part the same as you'd expect as a normal node for spawning
mobs, except that it does not have a specific thing it spawns.
Instead,
the game world is littered with these nodes and uses a library of NPCs,
mobs, doodads, and quest events to procedurally generate a variety of
activities. As a standalone mechanic it would be something to randomize
user experience, but can also be tied to themed libraries or a pool of
quest-specific events so that players can still obtain a more free-form
experience out of a technically static system. ---------------
I still like my idea that a Wandering Orc that's become "powerful" enough causes such spawn changes. But at the same time, yours and Deivos's general idea could play a big part in my idea. And maybe offer GMs a more efficient way to take over to create a GM Event.
Excellent ideas. Until someone makes that, I would settle for a sandbox game where, as you explore and adventure, the game generates interesting random encounters that are not the same each time.
I also think it would be interesting to get away, at least sometimes, from the player as hunter paradigm. As I adventure, things could start stalking me and I could become the hunted.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
People seem to not fully understand game design. Games are going to offer whatever the coders put in,they cannot magically think for themselves.Every word ,every sequence has to be coded,scripted.
Too many people fell for that GW2 crap thinking they actually have DYNAMIC events ...roflmao,i'd like to see them try and sell that BS to me with a straight face.Making a few hundred quests and have them switch on/off every 5-10 minutes is NOT a dynamic event and NOBODY is going to have dynamic events like ever at least not on a large scale.
The best we can ever hope to achieve is large menu systems and data bases,so like with drops for example there is a possible 100 drops from that mob,or a specific Boss has 10 scripted sequences in his actions.Quests have to be hard coded,they cannot magically manifest themselves not without coming off as super cheap.
The biggest advancement we have had is perhaps what NWO did but that system of allowing players to create quests was just super cheap and imo not very good at all.
There is ONLY ONE way to accomplish what people want and that is to allow players to import content from THEIR computer that was scripted and coded from scratch by the users.That means massive data bases,massive files and is just imo too tough to pull off but can be done.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
That's not scripted when it's based on chance and what the current situation in the game world, in that location, is. It could happen, or may not happen. No one would know, no one would be able to predict the future, not even the GMs.
And a random number generator will do that for you today. Scripted 20 outcomes, randomly picked one ... you are guaranteed that a) 19 are not going to happen, and b) no one (not including the GM) will know which one.
In fact, that is how you will not know what drop you will get when you kill a boss. Just apply that to events and story elements.
People seem to not fully understand game design. Games are going to offer whatever the coders put in,they cannot magically think for themselves.Every word ,every sequence has to be coded,scripted.
Too many people fell for that GW2 crap thinking they actually have DYNAMIC events ...roflmao,i'd like to see them try and sell that BS to me with a straight face.Making a few hundred quests and have them switch on/off every 5-10 minutes is NOT a dynamic event and NOBODY is going to have dynamic events like ever at least not on a large scale.
The best we can ever hope to achieve is large menu systems and data bases,so like with drops for example there is a possible 100 drops from that mob,or a specific Boss has 10 scripted sequences in his actions.Quests have to be hard coded,they cannot magically manifest themselves not without coming off as super cheap.
The biggest advancement we have had is perhaps what NWO did but that system of allowing players to create quests was just super cheap and imo not very good at all.
There is ONLY ONE way to accomplish what people want and that is to allow players to import content from THEIR computer that was scripted and coded from scratch by the users.That means massive data bases,massive files and is just imo too tough to pull off but can be done.
If you want that play Second Life or OpenSim.
You are kind of right and kind of wrong. The thing being how close we are to developing better simulated environments.
Key problem is we are still very far away from being able to deliver the computational power to create a complex sim with hundreds or thousands of people interacting with it.
There are interim solutions though like what was previously mentioned where a server can pull from a wide database of assets for prodecurally generated quests and activities seeded around players using a region-defined, profession class-defined, or overarching quest defined set of variables to narrow the potential results down to things that apply to the character's design.
Does that absolve the "everything must be coded" problem? No, but it does introduce a much more flexible user experience that still pushes players into exploring, experiencing plenty of variety in the game, and breaks the predictability and one-shot nature of quest chains as they currently exist.
You have to take steps to evolve games as we become capable of taking them, we can't conjure up the perfect game. No one put in the time, effort, or money to attempt something new, then nothing new will be made.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Does that absolve the "everything must be coded" problem? No, but it does introduce a much more flexible user experience that still pushes players into exploring, experiencing plenty of variety in the game, and breaks the predictability and one-shot nature of quest chains as they currently exist.
What predictability?
Did you perfect predict the plot of Fallout 4, Assassin Creed Syndicate and the newest Call of Duty? Don't tell me you don't think good writers can surprise us.
If MMOs are predictable, that is only because they did not spend enough on writers, and story implementation.
There is ONLY ONE way to accomplish what people want and that is to allow players to import content from THEIR computer that was scripted and coded from scratch by the users.That means massive data bases,massive files and is just imo too tough to pull off but can be done.
You speak the truth but what you are proposing is already giving me a headache.
Does that absolve the "everything must be coded" problem? No, but it does introduce a much more flexible user experience that still pushes players into exploring, experiencing plenty of variety in the game, and breaks the predictability and one-shot nature of quest chains as they currently exist.
What predictability?
Did you perfect predict the plot of Fallout 4, Assassin Creed Syndicate and the newest Call of Duty? Don't tell me you don't think good writers can surprise us.
If MMOs are predictable, that is only because they did not spend enough on writers, and story implementation.
Predictability does not have to be perfect prediction. Besides which, we are talking about MMO design where the narrative tends to have considerably weaker narrative thanks to having the wrong narrative structure in the wrong format.
While, yes, FO4, Syndicate and CoD were remarkably easy to predict their plots, the point more so is the predictable path and function of MMO quest mechanics. The "predictability" in question is about whether or not the user experience feels too "samey" to other MMOs versus if it feels like it has it's own tempo and you aren't experiencing a narrative that is going to be retread by a thousand other people.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Eventually, I'd image someone coming up with an extensive AI plugin (like talked about in this thread), a kind of SpeedTree for AI but more complicated, that is be used in any of the more commonly used dev engines or even in house engines. It could work in tangent with a world based node map(AI spawners, item or resource generation, etc). It would even have support for different server processing architectures to handle the AI load needed for the game types. Most games probably wouldn't need it but it could really benefit to the system heavy open world games while unburdening time to custom build so many AI behaviors and such on every game. I don't know the story on StoryBricks but maybe the market isn't large enough..
Who knows, I'm barely a junior level coder so this may be rather fictional.
That's not scripted when it's based on chance and what the current situation in the game world, in that location, is. It could happen, or may not happen. No one would know, no one would be able to predict the future, not even the GMs.
And a random number generator will do that for you today. Scripted 20 outcomes, randomly picked one ... you are guaranteed that a) 19 are not going to happen, and b) no one (not including the GM) will know which one.
In fact, that is how you will not know what drop you will get when you kill a boss. Just apply that to events and story elements.
But you are limited by those scripts. My idea gives you unlimited possibilities. Of course, limited by what a MOB has the capability to do. My world would evolve on it's own. Yours would still be limited.
Another aspect is that the world would move on without need of GMs adding new content to this, freeing them up to do more in other ways (GM events, new game code and assets).
Comments
It seems to me that this would go far in driving AI that is keyed more to MOBs.
Sort of a "the Force" sort of thing for NPCs and the game world.
Once upon a time....
How can you tell whether the story is written anywhere if the AI is as good as humans? Today, the only way you can tell is that a scripted story has dialogue and action way better than what AI can do.
In fact, if you have dynamic AI, you can essentially getting scripted static (today's) story generated dynamically on the fly. So there should be no difference in terms of the experience.
But suppose that you have a large forest, and just outside that forest is a player city.
In that forest is a small clan of NPC Orcs. And this clan has an Orc Leader who's grown enough to command a much larger force (through this Orc's own AI).
(But the game needs more than normal, even expanded, AI to control a world event.)
So this Orc Leader gets wind of the player city via a few Orcs from his clan having "seen" it and returned with that "knowledge". (I think NPCs should gain knowledge, and then pass it on/around.)
The Orc Leader desires to gain the riches in the player city (part of it's own AI).
So this Orc Leader "sends" a "tell" out and the area "Open Nodes", and those Nodes take on a chance to spawn Orcs instead of Deer...sometimes. These spawned Orcs will be directed to move to the Orc Clan's home and join the Clan. This also would simulate that the Orcs are eating the deer because of the lower numbers, and if the game places importance on food for players this could be an important thing.
Players may intercept these Orc spawn and kill them, and eventually might realize that something is going on (Orcs on the warpath).
And should this Orc Leader build enough forces before players find out, it leads the entire Clan to war against the player city.
Also, while the Orc Clan is building numbers, the "library" you've mentioned acts in conjunction with the Orc Leader's AI. There's a need for new constructions at the Orc Clan's home. They need Mats. So the Library directs Orcs in where to go for basic Mats for construction, and where to build what (with some randomness), and they build a depot for Mats to draw from for the constructions, smithies and crafting units, defensive walls and towers, extra living space or "temples" type stuff, armaments, and whatever.
All along the way, players may discover the threat and react. They might destroy the Orcs, they might have to call for players from other cities to help them, they might have their city attacked, maybe even looted.
(I'd suggest not player homes, but city owned warehoused supplies (basically a depot for the city's owned and taxed wealth.)
The players might conquer the Orc Clan, or raid it for it's Mats in it's depot, raid it's temple or other key spots, etc.
And none of it would feel scripted, or like it has to have a particular outcome. Players might end it before it really gets started, and no one would worry that the event didn't happen "as planned". Because it's entirely open. And it can happen again elsewhere.
Heck, maybe while the players are concentrating on the Orcs, a new menace is brewing elsewhere nearby.
The Undead King cometh!
Once upon a time....
What you're describing is something similar to EQNext's emergent AI. I was looking forward to how the emergent AI would create content, change the behavior of NPC's and how players would react to those variable behaviors. Dynamic AI is the solution to enhance and excel PVE gameplay in my opinion. I also want to mention it would be a smart design choice to stick with one core gameplay, PVE or PVP. PVE gameplay can absolutely produce dynamic content.
I am currently designing an mmorpg (hobby right now, design phase not development phase yet) that uses a blend of dynamic and static content. The dynamic content is is birthed out of player influence in the world based off an Adventure Mechanic. Content is currently introduced in different non linear layers giving a vast array of different gameplay experiences to the player.
Dynamic Content in my proposal for my game design triggers off other static content that is available to the player. Player influence does not come as individually but as a groups of group of players. In other words, when you log in you're not the hero, you're simply a citizen of the world taking up arms. You have to earn to be the hero. And many more players can share the hero status as well.
There are two types of Dynamic Content that is birthed from player influence. Dynamic Content is usually a zone or world based event.
Temporary Dynamic Content - This is content that has the opportunity to be produced by Missives and Adventures. This is were something is changed in a zone for a duration and then turned back to normal over a span of a few weeks to a month.
Permanent Dynamic Content - This is content that has the opportunity to progress the story of the world dictated by the players of that world. Permanent Dynamic Content is produced through Adventures and can be zone or world events.
The idea is more player choice of how they want to interact and be involved in the world around them. Thus this can create replayability and commitment to the game and the community.
Below is what my vision of how content is produced to the player statically and dynamically for PVE gameplay.
Missive Board
Missives are generally the normal 'quests' that we experience in most modern mmos, which are ultimately tasks. Missive boards are your lowest form of content and provide minimal to medium experience but can reward in nice coin. There are Missive Boards in every city. Missives are tasks that NPCs or players that can post to aid them with some task. Missives would include: Bounties, Lost and Found, Exterminate and Harvesting. Missives are static quests and are soloable to small group content. Missives can have a mediocre impact from player influence to trigger dynamic content.
Personal Quests
Personal Quests act as a chose your own story book. I would say it best represents Guild Wars 2 Personal storyline but packaged in a different way. There are three Personal Quests that each player has access to. A Personal Quest for your Race, your class and Lore of the world. Personal Quests grant improved racial traits, epic class skills/spells and valuable information from the lore that can help you further in the game. Personal Quests are soloable and do not affect player influence nor can trigger dynamic content.
Adventures
Adventures are the bed rock of dynamic content, player choice and player influence. Adventures are an avenue to help the player and their group to have an immersive experienced in the world and create different dynamic content. Adventures can trigger Permanent or Temporary dynamic content based off the success or failure of multiple groups taken apart in the Adventures.
For an example - Group 1 is in the Riverlands and started an Adventure to find to infiltrate a small sect that is in an allegiance to larger NPC faction. In order to do that, you must seek a Noon Stone at the shores of the eastern Riverlands to barter to get into one of their meetings.
However, in a zone south of Group 1 there are multiple groups taken apart in Adventures to destroy all orcish scouting parties. Unfortunately, those groups failed that Adventure and will trigger temporary dynamic content. In the Riverlands there are small encampments of NPC vendors that sell goods and items that a player may need as a convenience and/or may offer buffs in some capacity or information about certain things in game. These encampments could also provide a way to sell items instead of treking back a distance to town in an effort to save time. Since the groups failed those southern zones Adventures, the Orcs will come in full force to raid and pillage encampments or small villages in the Riverlands.
This opens up a choice for Group 1. Do they A: continue on their current adventure and trust that other players in the zone will defend those encampments from the incoming Orc raids. Or B: discontinue their current Adventure to help defend these encampments because those encampments have a value to those players. If Groups cannot defend these encampments then they are gone for a time and become orc outposts to further flood the Riverlands of Orcs.
Adventures can span gameplay in one zone or through multiple adjacent zones or sometimes all over the world. Adventures would incorporate epic travel.
- These are just on the surface ideas and I believe it would make a fun experience for gameplay while you get to enjoy static and dynamic content at the same time. I hope someone will take the time read and appreciate the thought. -
Left 4 Dead had a technique called the The Director that could randomise encounters. This system tried to watch the player and come up with an attack path that caught the player off guard. A simple example of a plot generator can be found at Justin B Rye's Star Trek Plot Generator.
Each segment of the plot would be tied to a database record. This is basically what I am doing. There are X basic quest types Kill, Delivery, Collect, Escort, Locate, Defend, Interact, and Craft-skill. Why this limited list because they mate well with a database and records. In a Themepark they can be randomly generated the same way as plots.
Some might say that a sandbox by it's definition doesn’t have any of this. Everything that you do in a sandbox can be thought of a quest (like the achievements in Minecraft). Every sandbox begins with the unspoken quests “Go forth and explore the world”, then “Find your place in it.” When you go out and equip your character with the tools and gear that match your playstyle and begin work on developing your character you are on these unspoken quests.
The random plot may generate a low level thug, that builds his empire up to a major player in the game world. Therefor becoming a threat to your character, that could be dealt with. Now watch this idea be stolen out from under me.Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
And even scripted stories do not have to have a particular outcome. You can have multiple outcomes, as commonly done in single player games.
Also this would create the type of phasing problems ESO has. Two players making different decisions and having their own world created from those decisions would create to different worlds that would be difficult to group in. Now multiply that by a group of 5 or 10 players playing together. One player can't go to an NPC because he killed him or is pissed off at him because he killed a friend NPC, so that potential story line is no longer available to him but is available to his friend.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Multiple outcome possibilities are a desire of most gamers. That's good right?
But in this case, the outcome might be anything from 1 to 10 all inclusive (on a scale of 10). Most SP games are either 1, 5, or 10 only. And most of your Themepark MMO's are 10 only. Some few have a similar setup as SP games, with limited outcome possibilities based on a pre-designed script.
What I suggested, like I said, has variable outcomes of "anything could happen".
In fact, based on chance, it may never have happened at all. Yet the game would obviously want to be designed that things happen, and something else would be happening somewhere else. But no one would know what that is exactly, or where.
Once upon a time....
Sony had some but they got rid of the group.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Great post, very interesting idea. Engineering complex AI that would make a fluid game play experience would be a challenging concept for sure. I think for just the sake of being random, it wouldn't provide a fluid game play experience. I was really interested in EQNext's emergent AI of how NPC's would behave differently depending on what the majority of players may act in a certain area inside of a zone.
I personally believe that complex AI should take the form of how NPC's will react and adapt in combat, rather then pulling from a library to randomized certain NPC types and events for a thematic location. It would be interesting to see different types of NPC's behave differenty while in combat. Orcs would be a more offensive in battle and have no mind for defense. Their motto would be, kill them quick before they kill you. A lizardman NPC would be more of a strategic fighter in that they would counter your moves until/if they figure out you strategy. Of course, with Complex Combat AI you would have to have complimentary Combat Mechanics.
I also think one solution to have your proposed idea work in a fluid environment while still allowing the open node system to pull from a library of thematic NPC's, is to have great level design for each zone. Here is a quick example. The Lizardmen are more territorial in their jungle, meaning they are more well guarded their strongholds and are vicious on the edge of the jungle to let any outsider in. Perhaps these Lizardmen enslaved other types of NPCs or even hired sell swords to protect their jungle to ad more variety to the NPC library. In the adjacent zone next to the jungle is a plains land where lizardmen also roam but behave differently because they are out of their element. I think that would be an interesting way to tackle complex AI as well. What do you think?
For example the system works
Spawn point 1. Naturally has foxes, bears, wolves, deer and etc if there isn't NPC or PC humanoid settlements beyond a certain number.
Orcs work like a virus. Infect a spawn and form an orc camp at 20. Orcs spawn at 10 per hour. At 50 orcs it becomes a small town. At 100 orcs it's a city. At 120 20 of the orcs split off to an adjecent spawn points . At 4 adjecent spawn points it becomes a nation.
You have local NPCS give quest related to the orc menace and orcs related quest appear in near by towns.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
In a sense it's very much like Deivos's idea.....
---------------
Deivos said: One example being "open nodes" in a semi-static environment which are for the most part the same as you'd expect as a normal node for spawning mobs, except that it does not have a specific thing it spawns.
Instead, the game world is littered with these nodes and uses a library of NPCs, mobs, doodads, and quest events to procedurally generate a variety of activities. As a standalone mechanic it would be something to randomize user experience, but can also be tied to themed libraries or a pool of quest-specific events so that players can still obtain a more free-form experience out of a technically static system.
---------------
I still like my idea that a Wandering Orc that's become "powerful" enough causes such spawn changes.
But at the same time, yours and Deivos's general idea could play a big part in my idea. And maybe offer GMs a more efficient way to take over to create a GM Event.
Once upon a time....
I also think it would be interesting to get away, at least sometimes, from the player as hunter paradigm. As I adventure, things could start stalking me and I could become the hunted.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Games are going to offer whatever the coders put in,they cannot magically think for themselves.Every word ,every sequence has to be coded,scripted.
Too many people fell for that GW2 crap thinking they actually have DYNAMIC events ...roflmao,i'd like to see them try and sell that BS to me with a straight face.Making a few hundred quests and have them switch on/off every 5-10 minutes is NOT a dynamic event and NOBODY is going to have dynamic events like ever at least not on a large scale.
The best we can ever hope to achieve is large menu systems and data bases,so like with drops for example there is a possible 100 drops from that mob,or a specific Boss has 10 scripted sequences in his actions.Quests have to be hard coded,they cannot magically manifest themselves not without coming off as super cheap.
The biggest advancement we have had is perhaps what NWO did but that system of allowing players to create quests was just super cheap and imo not very good at all.
There is ONLY ONE way to accomplish what people want and that is to allow players to import content from THEIR computer that was scripted and coded from scratch by the users.That means massive data bases,massive files and is just imo too tough to pull off but can be done.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
In fact, that is how you will not know what drop you will get when you kill a boss. Just apply that to events and story elements.
You are kind of right and kind of wrong. The thing being how close we are to developing better simulated environments.
Key problem is we are still very far away from being able to deliver the computational power to create a complex sim with hundreds or thousands of people interacting with it.
There are interim solutions though like what was previously mentioned where a server can pull from a wide database of assets for prodecurally generated quests and activities seeded around players using a region-defined, profession class-defined, or overarching quest defined set of variables to narrow the potential results down to things that apply to the character's design.
Does that absolve the "everything must be coded" problem? No, but it does introduce a much more flexible user experience that still pushes players into exploring, experiencing plenty of variety in the game, and breaks the predictability and one-shot nature of quest chains as they currently exist.
You have to take steps to evolve games as we become capable of taking them, we can't conjure up the perfect game. No one put in the time, effort, or money to attempt something new, then nothing new will be made.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Did you perfect predict the plot of Fallout 4, Assassin Creed Syndicate and the newest Call of Duty? Don't tell me you don't think good writers can surprise us.
If MMOs are predictable, that is only because they did not spend enough on writers, and story implementation.
While, yes, FO4, Syndicate and CoD were remarkably easy to predict their plots, the point more so is the predictable path and function of MMO quest mechanics. The "predictability" in question is about whether or not the user experience feels too "samey" to other MMOs versus if it feels like it has it's own tempo and you aren't experiencing a narrative that is going to be retread by a thousand other people.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Who knows, I'm barely a junior level coder so this may be rather fictional.
My idea gives you unlimited possibilities. Of course, limited by what a MOB has the capability to do. My world would evolve on it's own. Yours would still be limited.
Another aspect is that the world would move on without need of GMs adding new content to this, freeing them up to do more in other ways (GM events, new game code and assets).
Once upon a time....