Instancing, and BDO's new name for Instancing, "Channels", both need to die a quick death. They've plagued MMO's for far too long and fly in the face of everything MMO's were originally intended to be.
Instancing, and BDO's new name for Instancing, "Channels", both need to die a quick death. They've plagued MMO's for far too long and fly in the face of everything MMO's were originally intended to be.
Yeah, because having your entire population sharing the exact same instance works so well. Have you ever been in a location with 1000 players? it does not work well. And modern games have hundreds of thousands. The whole "RPG spirit of adventure and immersion" idea was never meant to have an adventuring party of 1 million people.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall Currently Playing: ESO
Isn't the game like 2 years further into development overseas? Rather than articles speculating on what's coming, I'd like to see some that KNOW what's coming and speculating on how it'll work in the NA/Euro version. Seems silly to speculate when you can actually KNOW the future just by talking to a gamer overseas... like... actual research into the article.
Open dungeons aren't in the Korean release and this is as much speculation on what arrives over there, that then impacts here.
That's not true, they actually have several already and better ones came with the Media and Valencia releases in KR. They're nothing more than elaborate underground grind spots better suited to groups.
Here are the newer ones that came out in KR:
Instancing, and BDO's new name for Instancing, "Channels", both need to die a quick death. They've plagued MMO's for far too long and fly in the face of everything MMO's were originally intended to be.
Would you rather they be called servers instead of channels and have 30 servers instead of 3? A BDO channel has a capacity similar to other MMORPG's servers
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Of course they could work. Look at Lineage 2 for instance, some of the most intense moments in that game for me were fighting over control of dungeons, or even rooms within a dungeon. I don't like the idea of guilds controlling a dungeon outright, whether they are present or not. But a truly open dungeon where the best group wins -- and when they start to fall apart the next more organized group may take over for a bit.
Instancing, and BDO's new name for Instancing, "Channels", both need to die a quick death. They've plagued MMO's for far too long and fly in the face of everything MMO's were originally intended to be.
Yeah, because having your entire population sharing the exact same instance works so well. Have you ever been in a location with 1000 players? it does not work well. And modern games have hundreds of thousands. The whole "RPG spirit of adventure and immersion" idea was never meant to have an adventuring party of 1 million people.
And yet, there's games that seem to make it to the light of day without requiring heavy instancing. So...? Instancing started in themeparks for two reasons: because the "chosen one" story we keep getting force fed over and over doesn't play well when other people, who are also "The Chosen One" are all in the same area trying to complete the same story, and because when trying to do themepark end game content they didn't want to inconvenience people by making them wait for another group to finish before they were allowed to start their 40th generic run through the content for the ultra rare bop equip.
Instancing, and BDO's new name for Instancing, "Channels", both need to die a quick death. They've plagued MMO's for far too long and fly in the face of everything MMO's were originally intended to be.
Would you rather they be called servers instead of channels and have 30 servers instead of 3? A BDO channel has a capacity similar to other MMORPG's servers
Yes. In fact, I would rather anything that promotes community and immersion, rather than go further down the shitty megaserver path. On typical MMO servers you can't hop back and forth between them to avoid people, or because someone took your spawn from you, or to monopolize resource nodes, or an other lame ass reason people use them for.
Isn't the game like 2 years further into development overseas? Rather than articles speculating on what's coming, I'd like to see some that KNOW what's coming and speculating on how it'll work in the NA/Euro version. Seems silly to speculate when you can actually KNOW the future just by talking to a gamer overseas... like... actual research into the article.
Open dungeons aren't in the Korean release and this is as much speculation on what arrives over there, that then impacts here.
Actually there is an open world dungeon in the Korean release of Valencia Part 2 -
The only purpose Open World Dungeons (OWD) serve is for Camping and Ninja Looting. Since the author did address this I assume he is an idiot. If your 40 person raid was followed into a OWD by another 40 person raid. Only to have them jump in and steal every Named Boss (and its loot drop) in the Dungeon. Or to fight your way to a Named Boss only to find others Camping the spawn of that Named Boss.
OWD = Denial Of Service (DOS), it's all about preventing access of game content to others. Nothing more. Again the author didn't address this, so must I assume he is an idiot. You say the solution if same faction PvP (Pk). Well you brought a 40 person raid and they brought a 160 person raid. Their riad supper force acts like a single minded killing machine, while your 40 person raid does not. As a result your raid does not see OWD XP, Loot for 6 to 8 months possibly longer. Ever notice how causing other frustration is the most fun to be had in game?
Instance has nothing to do with "Chosen One Story Content", or Convenience from waiting. It is all about segregating people from Griefers. You can't write about OWD and not address their use as a Griefing tool. It's unethical, and incompetent.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Instancing, and BDO's new name for Instancing, "Channels", both need to die a quick death. They've plagued MMO's for far too long and fly in the face of everything MMO's were originally intended to be.
Would you rather they be called servers instead of channels and have 30 servers instead of 3? A BDO channel has a capacity similar to other MMORPG's servers
Yes. In fact, I would rather anything that promotes community and immersion, rather than go further down the shitty megaserver path.
[This section edited by Konfess]
On typical MMO servers you can't hop back and forth between them to avoid people(Harassment), or because someone took your spawn(Kill Steal or Ninja Loot) from you, or to (avoid) monopolize(d) resource nodes, or any other lame ass (Safety) reason people use them for.
If someone is being harassed, attacked, or abused by another player, they have the right to seek safety from that abuser. When our rights infringe on the right of others, our rights end.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
The only purpose Open World Dungeons (OWD) serve is for Camping and Ninja Looting. Since the author did address this I assume he is an idiot. If your 40 person raid was followed into a OWD by another 40 person raid. Only to have them jump in and steal every Named Boss (and its loot drop) in the Dungeon. Or to fight your way to a Named Boss only to find others Camping the spawn of that Named Boss.
OWD = Denial Of Service (DOS), it's all about preventing access of game content to others. Nothing more. Again the author didn't address this, so must I assume he is an idiot. You say the solution if same faction PvP (Pk). Well you brought a 40 person raid and they brought a 160 person raid. Their riad supper force acts like a single minded killing machine, while your 40 person raid does not. As a result your raid does not see OWD XP, Loot for 6 to 8 months possibly longer. Ever notice how causing other frustration is the most fun to be had in game?
Instance has nothing to do with "Chosen One Story Content", or Convenience from waiting. It is all about segregating people from Griefers. You can't write about OWD and not address their use as a Griefing tool. It's unethical, and incompetent.
Not all things work like WoW... the world existed before WoW
Not all things work like WoW... the world existed before WoW
I remember Anarchy Online, tons of people camping every boss in foreman's. Long spawn timers, multiple hours, bosses died in a fraction of a second to how many over leveled people were camping for the rare loot, or looting rights, which they would then sell to others.
Not all things work like WoW... the world existed before WoW
I remember Anarchy Online, tons of people camping every boss in foreman's. Long spawn timers, multiple hours, bosses died in a fraction of a second to how many over leveled people were camping for the rare loot, or looting rights, which they would then sell to others.
I haven't played eso in awhile but it was the same thing there and I hated it. They should just make bosses hard as shit so they can't be killed by one guy boom problem fixed.
If someone is being harassed, attacked, or abused by another player, they have the right to seek safety from that abuser. When our rights infringe on the right of others, our rights end.
Except (and I know this sounds like a broken record) if one is playing an ffa pvp game they either should like ffa pvp or be completley accepting of its consequences.
Otherwise "you did this to you".
While I enjoy open world pvp in truth I just like sieges. If there was no pvp other than a huge siege every two weeks or so I would be happy with that pvp state.
But I play open world pvp games and I accept that I can get ganked. All I do is hit "back to town" or "to closest node" and I move on with my life. Or we go back and try to get our attackers. There's a certain fun to that.
Someone with your stance on open world pvp should not be playing a game with it. This way you don't get aggravation and have to deal with people and activities you don't like.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Instancing, and BDO's new name for Instancing, "Channels", both need to die a quick death. They've plagued MMO's for far too long and fly in the face of everything MMO's were originally intended to be.
Instancing is necessary in modern MMORPGs with large player bases, unless you want your players spread across endless amounts of servers.
Open World dungeons are really no different than open world overland zones. It's just a more contained space.
They don't work unless your game is a grinder as people will otherwise just go there, get what they need, and forget about it. If the drops from certain MOB spawns are really good, than those are the only ones that will get camped, blown up, looted, and then those players are out of there. They aren't much better than instances, except they lead to more player issues with spawn camping and KSing, etc.
The only purpose Open World Dungeons (OWD) serve is for Camping and Ninja Looting. Since the author did address this I assume he is an idiot. If your 40 person raid was followed into a OWD by another 40 person raid. Only to have them jump in and steal every Named Boss (and its loot drop) in the Dungeon. Or to fight your way to a Named Boss only to find others Camping the spawn of that Named Boss.
OWD = Denial Of Service (DOS), it's all about preventing access of game content to others. Nothing more. Again the author didn't address this, so must I assume he is an idiot. You say the solution if same faction PvP (Pk). Well you brought a 40 person raid and they brought a 160 person raid. Their riad supper force acts like a single minded killing machine, while your 40 person raid does not. As a result your raid does not see OWD XP, Loot for 6 to 8 months possibly longer. Ever notice how causing other frustration is the most fun to be had in game?
Instance has nothing to do with "Chosen One Story Content", or Convenience from waiting. It is all about segregating people from Griefers. You can't write about OWD and not address their use as a Griefing tool. It's unethical, and incompetent.
Not all things work like WoW... the world existed before WoW
The world that existed before WoW was much smaller than the world WoW helped build.
We're talking about EQ with 400k players split across ~20 servers, to WoW with (at its peak) 12M subscribers.
When your player base is much larger, open world content becomes a deterrent and only works if the game is designed around FFA PvP where you can defer to the issues it creates by simply telling them to fight over it.
I think it’s a bigger
problem of populations and logistics. An mmorpg has a finite amount of space. The
larger the player population and the less spread out level wise a population is
the more confining it feels and the more difficult it can become to find things
to fight.
When you then limit
this space further to a small dungeon it gets even worse. The classic “dungeon
crawl” was never meant for a million people. So it makes sense why blizzard
took the approach they did with instancing, while not the best or only option
it made sense as a resolution to the problem they saw which addressed
complaints many people had with the then current mmorpg’s.
Another option would
be to make vast caverns or catacombs that could accommodate large numbers of
players. This then though would not be much different than the surface areas
other than layout with branching corridors and tight quarters. While I would
enjoy this it is not the same as a “dungeon crawl” really.
A third option as
others have pointed out is PvP, allowing players to kill each other for “rights”
to control said dungeon. Not my personal favorite but one some enjoy and has
worked.
I think if you had
vast underground areas as large as the continents that they are under. Working your
way through them could lead to dungeon crawl like experiences if in one
direction you eventually found a goblin outpost or in another you found a
spider nesting ground etc.. if you then add some intelligence to the NPC’s if
the goblins where getting killed too often then they may say send more goblins
to help defend, or they may pack up and leave and start again in a different
location.
Well they did not work that well in UO, people would just gate in to known areas. They could work, but you cannot have boss spawn points, they have to randomly spawn about the dungeon.
Darkness falls was fun because you never knew when it would change sides.
Mob stealing is always a problem and multiple groups. Like you had to role to get a certain time frame which is governed by the players like bigger guilds otherwise it would be difficult.
Well they did not work that well in UO, people would just gate in to known areas. They could work, but you cannot have boss spawn points, they have to randomly spawn about the dungeon.
Darkness falls was fun because you never knew when it would change sides.
Seems it would be pretty fun to clash with other groups over them.
The route Black Desert chose got my respect because they really build a world that feels alive and kicking and that is mainly due to the absence of instancing.
Therefore I am all in favour of a solution like the OP described. Anyway I think BDO is a game to stay among us for a long time and the more I play it, the more I respect it.
Comments
Yeah, because having your entire population sharing the exact same instance works so well. Have you ever been in a location with 1000 players? it does not work well. And modern games have hundreds of thousands. The whole "RPG spirit of adventure and immersion" idea was never meant to have an adventuring party of 1 million people.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STO
Favourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, Firefall
Currently Playing: ESO
That's not true, they actually have several already and better ones came with the Media and Valencia releases in KR. They're nothing more than elaborate underground grind spots better suited to groups. Here are the newer ones that came out in KR:
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
That game got bashed for good reason, I don't think open world dungeons we're major points on anyones hate list.
Played-Everything
Playing-LoL
And yet, there's games that seem to make it to the light of day without requiring heavy instancing. So...? Instancing started in themeparks for two reasons: because the "chosen one" story we keep getting force fed over and over doesn't play well when other people, who are also "The Chosen One" are all in the same area trying to complete the same story, and because when trying to do themepark end game content they didn't want to inconvenience people by making them wait for another group to finish before they were allowed to start their 40th generic run through the content for the ultra rare bop equip.
Yes. In fact, I would rather anything that promotes community and immersion, rather than go further down the shitty megaserver path. On typical MMO servers you can't hop back and forth between them to avoid people, or because someone took your spawn from you, or to monopolize resource nodes, or an other lame ass reason people use them for.
Actually there is an open world dungeon in the Korean release of Valencia Part 2 -
OWD = Denial Of Service (DOS), it's all about preventing access of game content to others. Nothing more. Again the author didn't address this, so must I assume he is an idiot. You say the solution if same faction PvP (Pk). Well you brought a 40 person raid and they brought a 160 person raid. Their riad supper force acts like a single minded killing machine, while your 40 person raid does not. As a result your raid does not see OWD XP, Loot for 6 to 8 months possibly longer. Ever notice how causing other frustration is the most fun to be had in game?
Instance has nothing to do with "Chosen One Story Content", or Convenience from waiting. It is all about segregating people from Griefers. You can't write about OWD and not address their use as a Griefing tool. It's unethical, and incompetent.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Half the website? Dude the games just not good in any aspect... It's about to close.
If someone is being harassed, attacked, or abused by another player, they have the right to seek safety from that abuser. When our rights infringe on the right of others, our rights end.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Not all things work like WoW... the world existed before WoW
I haven't played eso in awhile but it was the same thing there and I hated it. They should just make bosses hard as shit so they can't be killed by one guy boom problem fixed.
Otherwise "you did this to you".
While I enjoy open world pvp in truth I just like sieges. If there was no pvp other than a huge siege every two weeks or so I would be happy with that pvp state.
But I play open world pvp games and I accept that I can get ganked. All I do is hit "back to town" or "to closest node" and I move on with my life. Or we go back and try to get our attackers. There's a certain fun to that.
Someone with your stance on open world pvp should not be playing a game with it. This way you don't get aggravation and have to deal with people and activities you don't like.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Open World dungeons are really no different than open world overland zones. It's just a more contained space.
They don't work unless your game is a grinder as people will otherwise just go there, get what they need, and forget about it. If the drops from certain MOB spawns are really good, than those are the only ones that will get camped, blown up, looted, and then those players are out of there. They aren't much better than instances, except they lead to more player issues with spawn camping and KSing, etc.
The world that existed before WoW was much smaller than the world WoW helped build.
We're talking about EQ with 400k players split across ~20 servers, to WoW with (at its peak) 12M subscribers.
When your player base is much larger, open world content becomes a deterrent and only works if the game is designed around FFA PvP where you can defer to the issues it creates by simply telling them to fight over it.
I think it’s a bigger problem of populations and logistics. An mmorpg has a finite amount of space. The larger the player population and the less spread out level wise a population is the more confining it feels and the more difficult it can become to find things to fight.
When you then limit this space further to a small dungeon it gets even worse. The classic “dungeon crawl” was never meant for a million people. So it makes sense why blizzard took the approach they did with instancing, while not the best or only option it made sense as a resolution to the problem they saw which addressed complaints many people had with the then current mmorpg’s.
Another option would be to make vast caverns or catacombs that could accommodate large numbers of players. This then though would not be much different than the surface areas other than layout with branching corridors and tight quarters. While I would enjoy this it is not the same as a “dungeon crawl” really.
A third option as others have pointed out is PvP, allowing players to kill each other for “rights” to control said dungeon. Not my personal favorite but one some enjoy and has worked.
I think if you had vast underground areas as large as the continents that they are under. Working your way through them could lead to dungeon crawl like experiences if in one direction you eventually found a goblin outpost or in another you found a spider nesting ground etc.. if you then add some intelligence to the NPC’s if the goblins where getting killed too often then they may say send more goblins to help defend, or they may pack up and leave and start again in a different location.
Darkness falls was fun because you never knew when it would change sides.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
Seems it would be pretty fun to clash with other groups over them.
Therefore I am all in favour of a solution like the OP described. Anyway I think BDO is a game to stay among us for a long time and the more I play it, the more I respect it.