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I found this to actually be an intelligent discussion.

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  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    Embers said:
    I'm having fun just watching all the drama over this game being developed.  Never seen anything like it.
    I think we've seen plenty of things like it, it's just different because it's more than the typical "fanboi's vs haters" duking it out. Now we have all kinds of interests involved, Fanbois v. haters...anti crowdfunding vs pro... Chris Roberts vs Smart. All vying for a slim piece of the "I told you so" pie. 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • TheYear1500TheYear1500 Member UncommonPosts: 531
    edited March 2016
    sgel said:


    Obviously he's the creative force behind SC, I don't think anyone disputes that.

    I would suggest reading some other threads because that is certainly not the case. 
    Want to back that up with some links?
    Just spent a few mins trying to find a particular quote as I posted CR's entire resume and Brenics and the usual haters basically said "he might be listed as producer on those games but he actually wasn't. He hasn't been in charge on any of the games he is listed as being in charge on" )or words to that effect). 

    Too many posts to plow through and I can't be bothered to waste my time. Believe me or don't but they are out there. 

    LOL as soon as I gave up looking I found it: -

    http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/445787/this-is-what-people-really-believe-theyre-getting-when-they-invest-in-star-citizen#latest

    Specifically my post on page 9 that Brenics responded to.
    So you don't have any links to back up your statement.  So why make that statement?  At no point did he say that CR was not the creative force behind SC, or any such thing.

    Perhaps you misunderstood the post you quoted?  We are talking about SC you know.   
  • BrenicsBrenics Member RarePosts: 1,939
    edited March 2016
    sgel said:


    Obviously he's the creative force behind SC, I don't think anyone disputes that.

    I would suggest reading some other threads because that is certainly not the case. 
    Want to back that up with some links?
    Just spent a few mins trying to find a particular quote as I posted CR's entire resume and Brenics and the usual haters basically said "he might be listed as producer on those games but he actually wasn't. He hasn't been in charge on any of the games he is listed as being in charge on" )or words to that effect). 

    Too many posts to plow through and I can't be bothered to waste my time. Believe me or don't but they are out there. 

    LOL as soon as I gave up looking I found it: -

    http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/445787/this-is-what-people-really-believe-theyre-getting-when-they-invest-in-star-citizen#latest

    Specifically my post on page 9 that Brenics responded to.
    Still true and I stand behind what i said and of course other than being attacked for it no actually proof I was wrong. Hell if you do a search you will find where Garret said it way back in Origin days. 

    Oh and by the way he wasn't only one to say it, in fact you will find comments from others that say he isn't fun to work under. 
    I'm not perfect but I'm always myself!

    Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event


    4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.

    http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/

    Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!

  • GrumpyHobbitGrumpyHobbit Member RarePosts: 1,220
    Brenics said:
    sgel said:


    Obviously he's the creative force behind SC, I don't think anyone disputes that.

    I would suggest reading some other threads because that is certainly not the case. 
    Want to back that up with some links?
    Just spent a few mins trying to find a particular quote as I posted CR's entire resume and Brenics and the usual haters basically said "he might be listed as producer on those games but he actually wasn't. He hasn't been in charge on any of the games he is listed as being in charge on" )or words to that effect). 

    Too many posts to plow through and I can't be bothered to waste my time. Believe me or don't but they are out there. 

    LOL as soon as I gave up looking I found it: -

    http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/445787/this-is-what-people-really-believe-theyre-getting-when-they-invest-in-star-citizen#latest

    Specifically my post on page 9 that Brenics responded to.
    Still true and I stand behind what i said and of course other than being attacked for it no actually proof I was wrong. Hell if you do a search you will find where Garret said it way back in Origin days. 

    Oh and by the way he wasn't only one to say it, in fact you will find comments from others that say he isn't fun to work under. 
    I am out of this one. 

    How can anyone argue a point when the person flat out denies what you confirm here....

    Yeah ok guys, leaving this 'intelligent discussion' to you !!!
  • TheYear1500TheYear1500 Member UncommonPosts: 531
    edited March 2016
    Brenics said:
    sgel said:


    Obviously he's the creative force behind SC, I don't think anyone disputes that.

    I would suggest reading some other threads because that is certainly not the case. 
    Want to back that up with some links?
    Just spent a few mins trying to find a particular quote as I posted CR's entire resume and Brenics and the usual haters basically said "he might be listed as producer on those games but he actually wasn't. He hasn't been in charge on any of the games he is listed as being in charge on" )or words to that effect). 

    Too many posts to plow through and I can't be bothered to waste my time. Believe me or don't but they are out there. 

    LOL as soon as I gave up looking I found it: -

    http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/445787/this-is-what-people-really-believe-theyre-getting-when-they-invest-in-star-citizen#latest

    Specifically my post on page 9 that Brenics responded to.
    Still true and I stand behind what i said and of course other than being attacked for it no actually proof I was wrong. Hell if you do a search you will find where Garret said it way back in Origin days. 

    Oh and by the way he wasn't only one to say it, in fact you will find comments from others that say he isn't fun to work under. 
    I am out of this one. 

    How can anyone argue a point when the person flat out denies what you confirm here....

    Yeah ok guys, leaving this 'intelligent discussion' to you !!!
    So nothing to back up what you said?

    I will help you out.  Original quote

    "Obviously he's the creative force behind SC, I don't think anyone disputes that."

    The post you linked was not talking about SC.  So perhaps you have something else in mind?
  • GrumpyHobbitGrumpyHobbit Member RarePosts: 1,220

    So nothing to back up what you said?

    I will help you out.  Original quote

    "Obviously he's the creative force behind SC, I don't think anyone disputes that."

    The post you linked was not talking about SC.  So perhaps you have something else in mind?
    lol I am not the one trying to dispute it.

    Talk to Brenics if you want proof he is not the creative force, he is the one who is disputing it as per his post above and in the linked thread (which is ALL about SC not sure why you don't think it isn't. I mean the title of the thread even has Start Citizen in it). 



  • TheYear1500TheYear1500 Member UncommonPosts: 531
    edited March 2016

    So nothing to back up what you said?

    I will help you out.  Original quote

    "Obviously he's the creative force behind SC, I don't think anyone disputes that."

    The post you linked was not talking about SC.  So perhaps you have something else in mind?
    lol I am not the one trying to dispute it.

    Talk to Brenics if you want proof he is not the creative force, he is the one who is disputing it as per his post above and in the linked thread (which is ALL about SC not sure why you don't think it isn't. I mean the title of the thread even has Start Citizen in it). 



    Well perhaps because he is talking about Wing Commander and Freelancer and his past games.  It seems very clear its about his last games.  Perhaps you want to reread the link?   
    Edit: well since its clear you didn't read it the first time, I might as well quote it. 

    "Calling the shots means the person can cut/add/redo anything he wants and then lead it to release. He has never done that and in fact he was told no on many things he wanted to change in WC and FL. So the answer is to this day, CR has never released a game. Its all out there just have to go read it. Oh and it was said way before DS. "

    Lets see talking about his past games and CR's past.  

    and 
    "Actually you never answered my question. pasting all that means nothing. You really should read up on CR. he isn't who you think he is. 

    Only chance you guys have of a game coming out is all in Erin's hands. Personally i think it is too late but time will tell. "

    Again talking about his past, even says " you really should read up on CR"

    Kind of funny considering you could not even bother to read the post you quoted.  

    The only time is is talking about SC is about handing it over to Erin's hands.  Indicating that CR is in charge now.  
  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906

    Quote from David.


    "This is why redoing a task over and over again is so draining to the psyche. Now, to be clear- I expect to have to redo things at times. Sometimes the circumstances change, the asset becomes problematic, or the bar has been greatly raised by adjacent assets within the context of the game.

    Redoing something more than once? Repeatedly? Every asset? Repeatedly? It is clearly not about the asset or the artist. Several times since I have been here, I have had an asset approved by CR only to learn weeks or months later that he had decided that it wasn’t good enough.

    One production phenomenon that has become familiar to anyone working under Roberts is ‘Unapproval.’ That is, when something that was previously approved becomes unacceptable later on in production for reasons known to Roberts only. It is usually based on whim or a nebulous quality bar that has shifted.

    When you get approval only to have it revoked later on, repeatedly, approval becomes meaningless. It is no longer a metric of progression. It does not energize or motivate you. It is met with apathy or cynicism.

    Redoing the same asset over and over again kills the spirit, and I suspect this was largely the reason the UK character team collapsed."


    It is clear this guy knows what he's talking about given his ability to write coherently and style in general.  Notice the last statement saying that the UK character team collapsed.  Meaning all that money spent was wasted and now has nothing to show for it.  Man that article shows so many obvious problems that are happening I will quote later because some people just don't like reading that much.

    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    filmoret said:

    Quote from David.


    "This is why redoing a task over and over again is so draining to the psyche. Now, to be clear- I expect to have to redo things at times. Sometimes the circumstances change, the asset becomes problematic, or the bar has been greatly raised by adjacent assets within the context of the game.

    Redoing something more than once? Repeatedly? Every asset? Repeatedly? It is clearly not about the asset or the artist. Several times since I have been here, I have had an asset approved by CR only to learn weeks or months later that he had decided that it wasn’t good enough.

    One production phenomenon that has become familiar to anyone working under Roberts is ‘Unapproval.’ That is, when something that was previously approved becomes unacceptable later on in production for reasons known to Roberts only. It is usually based on whim or a nebulous quality bar that has shifted.

    When you get approval only to have it revoked later on, repeatedly, approval becomes meaningless. It is no longer a metric of progression. It does not energize or motivate you. It is met with apathy or cynicism.

    Redoing the same asset over and over again kills the spirit, and I suspect this was largely the reason the UK character team collapsed."


    It is clear this guy knows what he's talking about given his ability to write coherently and style in general.  Notice the last statement saying that the UK character team collapsed.  Meaning all that money spent was wasted and now has nothing to show for it.  Man that article shows so many obvious problems that are happening I will quote later because some people just don't like reading that much.

    Definitely reasonable as far as reason to complain, or even as it says acknowledge such stewardship can easily lead to collapse. That's not hard to believe in the slightest. 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • GrumpyHobbitGrumpyHobbit Member RarePosts: 1,220

    So nothing to back up what you said?

    I will help you out.  Original quote

    "Obviously he's the creative force behind SC, I don't think anyone disputes that."

    The post you linked was not talking about SC.  So perhaps you have something else in mind?
    lol I am not the one trying to dispute it.

    Talk to Brenics if you want proof he is not the creative force, he is the one who is disputing it as per his post above and in the linked thread (which is ALL about SC not sure why you don't think it isn't. I mean the title of the thread even has Start Citizen in it). 



    Well perhaps because he is talking about Wing Commander and Freelancer and his past games.  It seems very clear its about his last games.  Perhaps you want to reread the link?   
    Edit: well since its clear you didn't read it the first time, I might as well quote it. 

    "Calling the shots means the person can cut/add/redo anything he wants and then lead it to release. He has never done that and in fact he was told no on many things he wanted to change in WC and FL. So the answer is to this day, CR has never released a game. Its all out there just have to go read it. Oh and it was said way before DS. "

    Lets see talking about his past games and CR's past.  

    and 
    "Actually you never answered my question. pasting all that means nothing. You really should read up on CR. he isn't who you think he is. 

    Only chance you guys have of a game coming out is all in Erin's hands. Personally i think it is too late but time will tell. "

    Again talking about his past, even says " you really should read up on CR"

    Kind of funny considering you could not even bother to read the post you quoted.  

    The only time is is talking about SC is about handing it over to Erin's hands.  Indicating that CR is in charge now.  
    Well people can make up their own minds I really don't want to argue against the "I BELIEVE he wasn't in charge of those other successful games but I BELIEVE he is in charge of this one" position. Belief is not reliant on fact. 


  • DeathengerDeathenger Member UncommonPosts: 880
    Distopia said:
    filmoret said:

    Quote from David.


    "This is why redoing a task over and over again is so draining to the psyche. Now, to be clear- I expect to have to redo things at times. Sometimes the circumstances change, the asset becomes problematic, or the bar has been greatly raised by adjacent assets within the context of the game.

    Redoing something more than once? Repeatedly? Every asset? Repeatedly? It is clearly not about the asset or the artist. Several times since I have been here, I have had an asset approved by CR only to learn weeks or months later that he had decided that it wasn’t good enough.

    One production phenomenon that has become familiar to anyone working under Roberts is ‘Unapproval.’ That is, when something that was previously approved becomes unacceptable later on in production for reasons known to Roberts only. It is usually based on whim or a nebulous quality bar that has shifted.

    When you get approval only to have it revoked later on, repeatedly, approval becomes meaningless. It is no longer a metric of progression. It does not energize or motivate you. It is met with apathy or cynicism.

    Redoing the same asset over and over again kills the spirit, and I suspect this was largely the reason the UK character team collapsed."


    It is clear this guy knows what he's talking about given his ability to write coherently and style in general.  Notice the last statement saying that the UK character team collapsed.  Meaning all that money spent was wasted and now has nothing to show for it.  Man that article shows so many obvious problems that are happening I will quote later because some people just don't like reading that much.

    Definitely reasonable as far as reason to complain, or even as it says acknowledge such stewardship can easily lead to collapse. That's not hard to believe in the slightest. 
     I wish more people would read what the man wrote like you just did because people are clearly not reading what the man said.

    Now let me just say this. Despite all I have said I am not a hater of Star Citizen. I just hate the fact that it's being so incredibly mismanaged and just ran into the ground. I would love for this to actually wind up into the game they are promising. I love space and sci-fi and all that is included in that. I was following since the early kick starter, but luckily did not invest.

    The common denominator in all the internal  drama and all the problems surrounding this game is clearly the same person who imagined it. That person is Chris Roberts. It is clear as crystal that as long as Chris Roberts is running the show there will not be a game. If anything, if the community of this game truly cares about the game and wants to see it to fruition they will band together and demand that Chris and any cronies are removed from the position of ultimate power. Star Citizen has a chance, but that chance is dependent on the removal of the cancer that is destroying it from within.
     
  • RusqueRusque Member RarePosts: 2,783
     
    Only chance you guys have of a game coming out is all in Erin's hands. Personally i think it is too late but time will tell. "

    Come now, SC will release, it's just not likely that it will be everything it's slated to be nor work as well as expected.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,615
    He was given a license to print money and even when mishandling/abusing that idea he still get support,so how and why would anything change?

    Sure he can play out his fantasy of being mr.hollywood director,sure he can pamper his wife with promises and gifts with all that money but to the people who made it all a reality,he has abused and exploited them and nothing will change that,not even the game.

    Sure the game imo 99.9% likely release,definitely already way over budget no matter how he spins all these stretch goals because he still has ship sales happening on going non stop.
    He has already failed and LIED when he could even produce the 6 million dollar game he promised,he actually is long over due to produce anything but some boring fly around in boring space.He has one space station,wow what is that the work of maybe 5 people over maybe 4 months?

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • DrDread74DrDread74 Member UncommonPosts: 308

    This type of problem is pretty common and unfortunate. I mean look at the story of Farmville on Facebook and the Zynga company that created it. There are similar horror stories about the lead guy there also.

    I think when you give people millions of dollars + power, half of them become the evil kings of medieval times


    http://baronsofthegalaxy.com/
     An MMO game I created, solo. It's live now and absolutely free to play!
  • ShodanasShodanas Member RarePosts: 1,933
    Embers said:
    I'm having fun just watching all the drama over this game being developed.  Never seen anything like it.
    I presume that you weren't here during the months leading to SWTOR's release.

    This is kindergarten compared to the drama, flame and hate s**tstorm raging through these forums during that period.
  • BrenicsBrenics Member RarePosts: 1,939

    So nothing to back up what you said?

    I will help you out.  Original quote

    "Obviously he's the creative force behind SC, I don't think anyone disputes that."

    The post you linked was not talking about SC.  So perhaps you have something else in mind?
    lol I am not the one trying to dispute it.

    Talk to Brenics if you want proof he is not the creative force, he is the one who is disputing it as per his post above and in the linked thread (which is ALL about SC not sure why you don't think it isn't. I mean the title of the thread even has Start Citizen in it). 



    Well perhaps because he is talking about Wing Commander and Freelancer and his past games.  It seems very clear its about his last games.  Perhaps you want to reread the link?   
    Edit: well since its clear you didn't read it the first time, I might as well quote it. 

    "Calling the shots means the person can cut/add/redo anything he wants and then lead it to release. He has never done that and in fact he was told no on many things he wanted to change in WC and FL. So the answer is to this day, CR has never released a game. Its all out there just have to go read it. Oh and it was said way before DS. "

    Lets see talking about his past games and CR's past.  

    and 
    "Actually you never answered my question. pasting all that means nothing. You really should read up on CR. he isn't who you think he is. 

    Only chance you guys have of a game coming out is all in Erin's hands. Personally i think it is too late but time will tell. "

    Again talking about his past, even says " you really should read up on CR"

    Kind of funny considering you could not even bother to read the post you quoted.  

    The only time is is talking about SC is about handing it over to Erin's hands.  Indicating that CR is in charge now.  
    Well people can make up their own minds I really don't want to argue against the "I BELIEVE he wasn't in charge of those other successful games but I BELIEVE he is in charge of this one" position. Belief is not reliant on fact. 


    Nice two step. 
    I'm not perfect but I'm always myself!

    Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event


    4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.

    http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/

    Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!

  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906

    Another quote from the article David said.


    "So the one thing that no one discusses is the biggest problem. Roberts is someone who on a company- wide level is always feared, but never respected. His direction is met with nervous compliance to his face, and rolled-eyed resentment behind his back. When his orders are articulated later to the rest of the team, and basic questions of logic and practicality are inevitable asked, they are met not with an explanation of why CR’s idea is a good one, but the importance of his happiness. The explanation is always the same- “I know it makes no sense, but that’s what CR wants”. This team is filled with people who have experience publishing other titles. Lots. We all know how it is “supposed” to be done. But everyone is faced with the same repeated dilemma, a choice- make CR happy or do what works for the game? Short term survival vs long term wins. And unfortunately it’s the survival option that wins out, mainly because turning away from a directive of CR is a recipe for unemployment.

    I am only speaking from one corner of this project, but I know that the micro managerial frustration experience is an epidemic at CIG. Everyone seems to be unhappy for the exact same reason. I don’t foresee anything changing at CIG if Roberts doesn’t change himself. And this is a shame because the company has all the ingredients to do something truly great, if only they would be allowed to do it. "


    We can clearly see the disconnect from CR with his employees.  They raise questions and concerns but not directly to CR but someone who is relaying commands.  The staff clearly needs freedom to work which is a huge rookie mistake and CR shouldn't be making that kind of mistakes especially when he has over 100 million.  You tell someone to fix your window and sit back don't tell them exactly how to hold the hammer and hold the measuring tape. 

    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Wizardry said:
    He was given a license to print money and even when mishandling/abusing that idea he still get support,so how and why would anything change?

    Sure he can play out his fantasy of being mr.hollywood director,sure he can pamper his wife with promises and gifts with all that money but to the people who made it all a reality,he has abused and exploited them and nothing will change that,not even the game.

    Sure the game imo 99.9% likely release,definitely already way over budget no matter how he spins all these stretch goals because he still has ship sales happening on going non stop.
    He has already failed and LIED when he could even produce the 6 million dollar game he promised,he actually is long over due to produce anything but some boring fly around in boring space.He has one space station,wow what is that the work of maybe 5 people over maybe 4 months?


    At least you're consistent in your 6 million argument. You're wrong, but at least you're consistently wrong.

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
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    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • DeathmachinePTDeathmachinePT Member UncommonPosts: 119
    edited March 2016
    Not only that but they had to redone/retarget all animations for every character.. But that is CR that's the risk you took if you backed I think most of us have accept it.

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  • TheYear1500TheYear1500 Member UncommonPosts: 531
    edited March 2016

    So nothing to back up what you said?

    I will help you out.  Original quote

    "Obviously he's the creative force behind SC, I don't think anyone disputes that."

    The post you linked was not talking about SC.  So perhaps you have something else in mind?
    lol I am not the one trying to dispute it.

    Talk to Brenics if you want proof he is not the creative force, he is the one who is disputing it as per his post above and in the linked thread (which is ALL about SC not sure why you don't think it isn't. I mean the title of the thread even has Start Citizen in it). 



    Well perhaps because he is talking about Wing Commander and Freelancer and his past games.  It seems very clear its about his last games.  Perhaps you want to reread the link?   
    Edit: well since its clear you didn't read it the first time, I might as well quote it. 

    "Calling the shots means the person can cut/add/redo anything he wants and then lead it to release. He has never done that and in fact he was told no on many things he wanted to change in WC and FL. So the answer is to this day, CR has never released a game. Its all out there just have to go read it. Oh and it was said way before DS. "

    Lets see talking about his past games and CR's past.  

    and 
    "Actually you never answered my question. pasting all that means nothing. You really should read up on CR. he isn't who you think he is. 

    Only chance you guys have of a game coming out is all in Erin's hands. Personally i think it is too late but time will tell. "

    Again talking about his past, even says " you really should read up on CR"

    Kind of funny considering you could not even bother to read the post you quoted.  

    The only time is is talking about SC is about handing it over to Erin's hands.  Indicating that CR is in charge now.  
    Well people can make up their own minds I really don't want to argue against the "I BELIEVE he wasn't in charge of those other successful games but I BELIEVE he is in charge of this one" position. Belief is not reliant on fact. 


    But everything I said was.  I am still waiting for those links.  Perhaps you only BELIEVE you have them.   
  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,584
    edited March 2016
    filmoret said:

    Another quote from the article David said.


    "So the one thing that no one discusses is the biggest problem. Roberts is someone who on a company- wide level is always feared, but never respected. His direction is met with nervous compliance to his face, and rolled-eyed resentment behind his back. When his orders are articulated later to the rest of the team, and basic questions of logic and practicality are inevitable asked, they are met not with an explanation of why CR’s idea is a good one, but the importance of his happiness. The explanation is always the same- “I know it makes no sense, but that’s what CR wants”. This team is filled with people who have experience publishing other titles. Lots. We all know how it is “supposed” to be done. But everyone is faced with the same repeated dilemma, a choice- make CR happy or do what works for the game? Short term survival vs long term wins. And unfortunately it’s the survival option that wins out, mainly because turning away from a directive of CR is a recipe for unemployment.

    I am only speaking from one corner of this project, but I know that the micro managerial frustration experience is an epidemic at CIG. Everyone seems to be unhappy for the exact same reason. I don’t foresee anything changing at CIG if Roberts doesn’t change himself. And this is a shame because the company has all the ingredients to do something truly great, if only they would be allowed to do it. "


    We can clearly see the disconnect from CR with his employees.  They raise questions and concerns but not directly to CR but someone who is relaying commands.  The staff clearly needs freedom to work which is a huge rookie mistake and CR shouldn't be making that kind of mistakes especially when he has over 100 million.  You tell someone to fix your window and sit back don't tell them exactly how to hold the hammer and hold the measuring tape. 

    One problem I have with these statements. This guy obviously hated his job there and Chris Robert's enough to quit but did nothing to stand up for himself or others who work in what he considers a toxic workplace. If some third party hadn't leaked this info we'd never even know about it.

    If you want to change someone's bad behavior they need to be confronted about said behavior. If you are unwilling to stand up for yourself or your fellows who are being mistreated, don't blame anyone but yourselves when this sad state of affairs continues. Running away and hiding might temporarily fix the problem FOR YOU, but if all you industry professionals are doing is continuing to support toxic workplaces, and yeah, running away fixes nothing at the workplace you ran away from, its inevitable that kind of shit will eventually seep into your next job as well, and the cycle will continue. Don't like your mistreatment? Grow a pair and do something about it for a change.

    I find it sad in this day and age so many people feel its their "deity of your choice's" given right to complain, but nobody seems to want to accept responsibility to actually fucking do something to make things better. Maybe that's the kind of oversight this industry needs. Less bellyaching and more doing something. Be loud, be proud, and yell "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!!"

    "You have kept me at your beck and call for fifteen years. I shall never again do what you demand of me. By every rule of single combat, from this moment your life belongs to me. Is that not correct? Then I shall simply declare you dead. In all of your dealings with me, you'll do me the courtesy to conduct yourself as a dead man. I have submitted to your notions of honor long enough. You will now submit to mine."

  • GrumpyHobbitGrumpyHobbit Member RarePosts: 1,220

    So nothing to back up what you said?

    I will help you out.  Original quote

    "Obviously he's the creative force behind SC, I don't think anyone disputes that."

    The post you linked was not talking about SC.  So perhaps you have something else in mind?
    lol I am not the one trying to dispute it.

    Talk to Brenics if you want proof he is not the creative force, he is the one who is disputing it as per his post above and in the linked thread (which is ALL about SC not sure why you don't think it isn't. I mean the title of the thread even has Start Citizen in it). 



    Well perhaps because he is talking about Wing Commander and Freelancer and his past games.  It seems very clear its about his last games.  Perhaps you want to reread the link?   
    Edit: well since its clear you didn't read it the first time, I might as well quote it. 

    "Calling the shots means the person can cut/add/redo anything he wants and then lead it to release. He has never done that and in fact he was told no on many things he wanted to change in WC and FL. So the answer is to this day, CR has never released a game. Its all out there just have to go read it. Oh and it was said way before DS. "

    Lets see talking about his past games and CR's past.  

    and 
    "Actually you never answered my question. pasting all that means nothing. You really should read up on CR. he isn't who you think he is. 

    Only chance you guys have of a game coming out is all in Erin's hands. Personally i think it is too late but time will tell. "

    Again talking about his past, even says " you really should read up on CR"

    Kind of funny considering you could not even bother to read the post you quoted.  

    The only time is is talking about SC is about handing it over to Erin's hands.  Indicating that CR is in charge now.  
    Well people can make up their own minds I really don't want to argue against the "I BELIEVE he wasn't in charge of those other successful games but I BELIEVE he is in charge of this one" position. Belief is not reliant on fact. 


    But everything I said was.  I am still waiting for those links.  Perhaps you only BELIEVE you have them.   
    OK just to clarify because I honestly think you have misunderstood what I wrote.

    I, me, believe that CR is the creative guy behind the project due to the fact that his name is really the only name I have ever head. His name is credited as produce for those games and I have no reason to question that. 
    Brenics among others have stated that CR does not have as much influence/creative licence/freedom as everyone says he has but they use heresay or personal opinion to justify why they BELIEVE that. 
    I, me, linked the thread where that very conversation took place. 
    I, me, do not disagree that CR is in charge of SC. I AGREE WITH YOUR STATEMENT. I DISAGREE THAT EVERYONE does or has agreed with it. 
    You keep asking me to provide links to prove CR is NOT in charge. 
    I, me, never said he wasn't. There is NO evidence to provide only personal opinions which are about as much use as a chocolate Teapot.

    Does that help you constantly asking me for links to something that I don't have, never said I did have and have continually tried to explain to you that I AGREE with you that CR is in charge but OTHERS, Brenics for example, have stated that in past games where he WAS in charge they BELIEVE he was not (because for their agenda to work he must not have been able to produce a successful game in charge) and using the same logic to argue that now CR IS in charge (that is the reason for it being delays (because if you look at his previous games that were all successful and well made and very well received you have to find a way to disassociate him from those successes to continue to believe that SC is the ONLY game he has been in cahrge of and use that as the reason for the delays).
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 3,956
    filmoret said:

    Another quote from the article David said.


    "So the one thing that no one discusses is the biggest problem. Roberts is someone who on a company- wide level is always feared, but never respected. His direction is met with nervous compliance to his face, and rolled-eyed resentment behind his back. When his orders are articulated later to the rest of the team, and basic questions of logic and practicality are inevitable asked, they are met not with an explanation of why CR’s idea is a good one, but the importance of his happiness. The explanation is always the same- “I know it makes no sense, but that’s what CR wants”. This team is filled with people who have experience publishing other titles. Lots. We all know how it is “supposed” to be done. But everyone is faced with the same repeated dilemma, a choice- make CR happy or do what works for the game? Short term survival vs long term wins. And unfortunately it’s the survival option that wins out, mainly because turning away from a directive of CR is a recipe for unemployment.

    I am only speaking from one corner of this project, but I know that the micro managerial frustration experience is an epidemic at CIG. Everyone seems to be unhappy for the exact same reason. I don’t foresee anything changing at CIG if Roberts doesn’t change himself. And this is a shame because the company has all the ingredients to do something truly great, if only they would be allowed to do it. "


    We can clearly see the disconnect from CR with his employees.  They raise questions and concerns but not directly to CR but someone who is relaying commands.  The staff clearly needs freedom to work which is a huge rookie mistake and CR shouldn't be making that kind of mistakes especially when he has over 100 million.  You tell someone to fix your window and sit back don't tell them exactly how to hold the hammer and hold the measuring tape. 

    One problem I have with these statements. This guy obviously hated his job there and Chris Robert's enough to quit but did nothing to stand up for himself or others who work in what he considers a toxic workplace. If some third party hadn't leaked this info we'd never even know about it.

    If you want to change someone's bad behavior they need to be confronted about said behavior. If you are unwilling to stand up for yourself or your fellows who are being mistreated, don't blame anyone but yourselves when this sad state of affairs continues. Running away and hiding might temporarily fix the problem FOR YOU, but if all you industry professionals are doing is continuing to support toxic workplaces, and yeah, running away fixes nothing at the workplace you ran away from, its inevitable that kind of shit will eventually seep into your next job as well, and the cycle will continue. Don't like your mistreatment? Grow a pair and do something about it for a change.

    I find it sad in this day and age so many people feel its their "deity of your choice's" given right to complain, but nobody seems to want to accept responsibility to actually fucking do something to make things better. Maybe that's the kind of oversight this industry needs. Less bellyaching and more doing something. Be loud, be proud, and yell "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!!"
    Perhaps he did stand up to Chris and in turn he just made his life absolute garbage while at work to force him into quitting. It is a thing employers will do when they want someone to quit, they will pile on the work and give them the shittiest jobs to do.

    I'm not saying this is what Chris did but we don't have the whole picture. Perhaps someone else stood up to Chris and he saw the end result of what happens and that was the straw that broke the camels back. Also it is generally accepted that the gaming industry is a rather small place and you can easily be blackballed from the industry if certain people seem it so. 

    Mage sounds like a guy who would have the balls to do what's right and when things still didn't change he decided to leave before it started to affect his life outside of work but that's just me speculating.
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 3,956
    Lol not sure why he was auto corrected to Mage but maybe my iPhone is trying to tell me something 
  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member LegendaryPosts: 3,584
    edited March 2016
    Kefo said:
    filmoret said:

    Another quote from the article David said.


    "So the one thing that no one discusses is the biggest problem. Roberts is someone who on a company- wide level is always feared, but never respected. His direction is met with nervous compliance to his face, and rolled-eyed resentment behind his back. When his orders are articulated later to the rest of the team, and basic questions of logic and practicality are inevitable asked, they are met not with an explanation of why CR’s idea is a good one, but the importance of his happiness. The explanation is always the same- “I know it makes no sense, but that’s what CR wants”. This team is filled with people who have experience publishing other titles. Lots. We all know how it is “supposed” to be done. But everyone is faced with the same repeated dilemma, a choice- make CR happy or do what works for the game? Short term survival vs long term wins. And unfortunately it’s the survival option that wins out, mainly because turning away from a directive of CR is a recipe for unemployment.

    I am only speaking from one corner of this project, but I know that the micro managerial frustration experience is an epidemic at CIG. Everyone seems to be unhappy for the exact same reason. I don’t foresee anything changing at CIG if Roberts doesn’t change himself. And this is a shame because the company has all the ingredients to do something truly great, if only they would be allowed to do it. "


    We can clearly see the disconnect from CR with his employees.  They raise questions and concerns but not directly to CR but someone who is relaying commands.  The staff clearly needs freedom to work which is a huge rookie mistake and CR shouldn't be making that kind of mistakes especially when he has over 100 million.  You tell someone to fix your window and sit back don't tell them exactly how to hold the hammer and hold the measuring tape. 

    One problem I have with these statements. This guy obviously hated his job there and Chris Robert's enough to quit but did nothing to stand up for himself or others who work in what he considers a toxic workplace. If some third party hadn't leaked this info we'd never even know about it.

    If you want to change someone's bad behavior they need to be confronted about said behavior. If you are unwilling to stand up for yourself or your fellows who are being mistreated, don't blame anyone but yourselves when this sad state of affairs continues. Running away and hiding might temporarily fix the problem FOR YOU, but if all you industry professionals are doing is continuing to support toxic workplaces, and yeah, running away fixes nothing at the workplace you ran away from, its inevitable that kind of shit will eventually seep into your next job as well, and the cycle will continue. Don't like your mistreatment? Grow a pair and do something about it for a change.

    I find it sad in this day and age so many people feel its their "deity of your choice's" given right to complain, but nobody seems to want to accept responsibility to actually fucking do something to make things better. Maybe that's the kind of oversight this industry needs. Less bellyaching and more doing something. Be loud, be proud, and yell "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!!"
    Perhaps he did stand up to Chris and in turn he just made his life absolute garbage while at work to force him into quitting. It is a thing employers will do when they want someone to quit, they will pile on the work and give them the shittiest jobs to do.

    I'm not saying this is what Chris did but we don't have the whole picture. Perhaps someone else stood up to Chris and he saw the end result of what happens and that was the straw that broke the camels back. Also it is generally accepted that the gaming industry is a rather small place and you can easily be blackballed from the industry if certain people seem it so. 

    Mage sounds like a guy who would have the balls to do what's right and when things still didn't change he decided to leave before it started to affect his life outside of work but that's just me speculating.
    Well I can't say that's impossible, but it seems like something he would have mentioned in his laundry list of reasons he left. "I tried to take it up with Chris but he just acted like an asshole and made me want to quit even more" seems to be something he wouldn't have left out of his litany of complaints.

     And if as you say he has the balls to do what's right, you think he would have wanted this information publicly aired where it might do some good.

    Addendum: The gaming industry is a multi-billion dollar one, so I fail to see how it could be considered a "small place". There are many laws in place to fight workplace discrimination. And since this is the information age where a huge outlet of social media is just one keyboard away, I don't see how companies could black list someone without getting their ass legally handed to them, and their reputations murdered in the court of public opinion.

    I'm sorry but I feel the blackballing thing is just another excuse for people to not take responsibility for their own actions. IE "Let someone else stick their neck out". 

    "You have kept me at your beck and call for fifteen years. I shall never again do what you demand of me. By every rule of single combat, from this moment your life belongs to me. Is that not correct? Then I shall simply declare you dead. In all of your dealings with me, you'll do me the courtesy to conduct yourself as a dead man. I have submitted to your notions of honor long enough. You will now submit to mine."

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