The Lack of Endgame is Not a Problem That Needs Solving

SBFord · March 2016

The Lack of Endgame is Not a Problem That Needs Solving

As I round up on yet another week with Black Desert Online I’m no closer to my goal of hitting at least level 45 before assigning a score… and it’s not for lack of trying. Black Desert’s a game that’s custom built to mess with anyone who has the slightest propensity for attention deficit disorder and well… what was I talking about again?

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manolodazona · March 2016

Agreed, the game is surely not perfect (or any game is for that matter) but it is incredibly refreshing and certainly one of the best MMO's since the old goodies like UO and EQ

fed79 · March 2016

Black desert is well made but I feel the company behind it is just too greedy. Sure they are a business and need to make money but different decisions such as cash shop only - pets, costumes with stats and items like Elions Tears just make me feel they are too greedy. And why shouldn't they be? There is a post on the forums were people have been bragging about how many $hundreds they have spent.
My other issue is the pvp is very unbalanced, there is very little strategic counter play available and I feel that and the fact that pvp is unavoidable after 45 are deliberate to push you towards the cash shop.

Sovrath · March 2016

Well, unless Pantheon releases (or Dragon's Dogma Online comes west), this will be my game.

It gives me more of that "lineage 2 feel" than any game since and I'm tired of "pure" theme parks (never really liked them anyway).

holdenhamlet · March 2016

BDO seems to get the most praise from people who haven't reached level cap yet. Eventually they'll get there, and I wonder how they'll feel about the game then.

I've read tons of posts from people saying things like, "I'm level 25 and having a blast- check out this boat I made!" but not a single one from someone saying, "I'm level 50 and having a blast!"

Sirmatthias · March 2016

Great article, well written.

*claps

SEANMCAD · March 2016

I kinda wish System would stop posting articles related to BDO, in non BDO areas. BDO topics are getting tiresome

fed79 · March 2016

holdenhamlet said:

BDO seems to get the most praise from people who haven't reached level cap yet. Eventually they'll get there, and I wonder how they'll feel about the game then.

I've read tons of posts from people saying things like, "I'm level 25 and having a blast- check out this boat I made!" but not a single one from someone saying, "I'm level 50 and having a blast!"

Very well said, totally agree. End game, once most get bored of afk fishing etc, is going to be a shock.

manolodazona · March 2016

holdenhamlet said:

BDO seems to get the most praise from people who haven't reached level cap yet. Eventually they'll get there, and I wonder how they'll feel about the game then.

I've read tons of posts from people saying things like, "I'm level 25 and having a blast- check out this boat I made!" but not a single one from someone saying, "I'm level 50 and having a blast!"

Not sure what you're getting at but I know lots of people 45+ who are having a blast with the game...

Sovrath · March 2016

holdenhamlet said:

BDO seems to get the most praise from people who haven't reached level cap yet. Eventually they'll get there, and I wonder how they'll feel about the game then.

I've read tons of posts from people saying things like, "I'm level 25 and having a blast- check out this boat I made!" but not a single one from someone saying, "I'm level 50 and having a blast!"

Well, I have one level to go to the soft level cap of 50and I am not dissuaded from continuing.

I'm also glad that 50+ slows down as far as leveling speed. Oh and I'm having a blast.

BillMurphy · March 2016

fed79 said:

holdenhamlet said:

BDO seems to get the most praise from people who haven't reached level cap yet. Eventually they'll get there, and I wonder how they'll feel about the game then.

I've read tons of posts from people saying things like, "I'm level 25 and having a blast- check out this boat I made!" but not a single one from someone saying, "I'm level 50 and having a blast!"

Very well said, totally agree. End game, once most get bored of afk fishing etc, is going to be a shock.

I think you're missing my point. BDO isn't meant to be played just to hit the soft cap and then find some PVE to grind. It's supposed to be a world where you set up a trade/craft/territory control empire by yourself and with your guild. In this kind of game, the whole game IS endgame.

TheHiveLeader · March 2016

holdenhamlet said:

BDO seems to get the most praise from people who haven't reached level cap yet. Eventually they'll get there, and I wonder how they'll feel about the game then.

I've read tons of posts from people saying things like, "I'm level 25 and having a blast- check out this boat I made!" but not a single one from someone saying, "I'm level 50 and having a blast!"

I follow a crap-ton of people on YouTube who are all level 50 and still loving it. It entirely depends on how you view endgame and the journey there.

Different people want different things out of their games.

SEANMCAD · March 2016

BillMurphy said:

fed79 said:

holdenhamlet said:

BDO seems to get the most praise from people who haven't reached level cap yet. Eventually they'll get there, and I wonder how they'll feel about the game then.

I've read tons of posts from people saying things like, "I'm level 25 and having a blast- check out this boat I made!" but not a single one from someone saying, "I'm level 50 and having a blast!"

Very well said, totally agree. End game, once most get bored of afk fishing etc, is going to be a shock.

I think you're missing my point. BDO isn't meant to be played just to hit the soft cap and then find some PVE to grind. It's supposed to be a world where you set up a trade/craft/territory control empire by yourself and with your guild. In this kind of game, the whole game IS endgame.

which begs the question.

what is the point of early to mid game then.

Its a question I have asked on other games where endgame is such a focus. Best I can tell the early to mid game for many players is nothing more than a tutorial that is far too long and doesnt even teach the player the skills needs at end game anyway.

heerobya · March 2016

Gah you are certainly tempting me, but I'm not sure the game would even run on my Surface Pro 4 as I don't have a gaming PC anymore

TheHiveLeader · March 2016

SEANMCAD said:

BillMurphy said:

fed79 said:

holdenhamlet said:

BDO seems to get the most praise from people who haven't reached level cap yet. Eventually they'll get there, and I wonder how they'll feel about the game then.

I've read tons of posts from people saying things like, "I'm level 25 and having a blast- check out this boat I made!" but not a single one from someone saying, "I'm level 50 and having a blast!"

Very well said, totally agree. End game, once most get bored of afk fishing etc, is going to be a shock.

I think you're missing my point. BDO isn't meant to be played just to hit the soft cap and then find some PVE to grind. It's supposed to be a world where you set up a trade/craft/territory control empire by yourself and with your guild. In this kind of game, the whole game IS endgame.

which begs the question.

what is the point of early to mid game then.

Its a question I have asked on other games where endgame is such a focus. Best I can tell the early to mid game for many players is nothing more than a tutorial that is far too long and doesnt even teach the player the skills needs at end game anyway.

...I think you misunderstood. By "the whole game IS endgame" he doesn't mean that everything before endgame is meaningless. He means THE ENTIRE GAME from the second you log in, is essentially endgame.

azurrei · March 2016

It's a shame this game is forced PvP after 45 - had there been an option to never have to deal with unwanted PvP I'd be playing this instead of BnS...oh well. I really wonder why they didn't set up a GvG only server and adjust the Karma system to not suck for people who like to PvP on the open PvP servers.

Gdemami · March 2016

BillMurphy said:

I think you're missing my point. BDO isn't meant to be played just to hit the soft cap and then find some PVE to grind. It's supposed to be a world where you set up a trade/craft/territory control empire by yourself and with your guild. In this kind of game, the whole game IS endgame.

So you found out games got crafting component and spiral it into absurd proportions.

Guess what, pretty much any game got crafting.

BDO is same rush/grind to endgame like any other themepark - you can't be competitive without gear and levels, including crafting.

If what you say was true, there wouldn't be massive power gaps in gear, crafted items would be somewhat meaningful and market wouldn't be regulated.

SEANMCAD · March 2016

TheHiveLeader said:

...I think you misunderstood. By "the whole game IS endgame" he doesn't mean that everything before endgame is meaningless. He means THE ENTIRE GAME from the second you log in, is essentially endgame.

which properly translated doesnt mean that mid and early game activities are meaningless but rather they dont exist.

think on that given what you said.

never the less, I am not sure why gamers dont see this but in most games in which end game is a goal the first 40 hours of game play is basically just a barriar to get to the game you want and doesnt add really any value to the overall game play and could very well be completely removed.

carvalho677 · March 2016

Gdemami said:

BillMurphy said:

I think you're missing my point. BDO isn't meant to be played just to hit the soft cap and then find some PVE to grind. It's supposed to be a world where you set up a trade/craft/territory control empire by yourself and with your guild. In this kind of game, the whole game IS endgame.

So you found out games got crafting component and spiral it into absurd proportions.

Guess what, pretty much any game got crafting.

BDO is same rush/grind to endgame like any other themepark - you can't be competitive without gear and levels, including crafting.

If what you say was true, there wouldn't be massive power gaps in gear, crafted items would be somewhat meaningful and market wouldn't be regulated.

crafting is only one portion of the game, there's ton of things never seen in other MMO's... that and not everyone is competitive, if you like to explore the world, quest or focus on one profession you can do that and that's where the game is good it.. doing these things is not a chore which can't be said for many other MMO's

Sovrath · March 2016

SEANMCAD said:

which properly translated doesnt mean that mid and early game activities are meaningless but rather they dont exist.

think on that given what you said.

never the less, I am not sure why gamers dont see this but in most games in which end game is a goal the first 40 hours of game play is basically just a barriar to get to the game you want and doesnt add really any value to the overall game play and could very well be completely removed.

uh, what a cynical way of looking at it. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people who, once they get to "end game" in most games, stop. They don't want to raid for gear ad infinitum.

Sorry I can't get on board with that take on it.

Leiloni · March 2016

BillMurphy said:

fed79 said:

holdenhamlet said:

BDO seems to get the most praise from people who haven't reached level cap yet. Eventually they'll get there, and I wonder how they'll feel about the game then.

I've read tons of posts from people saying things like, "I'm level 25 and having a blast- check out this boat I made!" but not a single one from someone saying, "I'm level 50 and having a blast!"

Very well said, totally agree. End game, once most get bored of afk fishing etc, is going to be a shock.

I think you're missing my point. BDO isn't meant to be played just to hit the soft cap and then find some PVE to grind. It's supposed to be a world where you set up a trade/craft/territory control empire by yourself and with your guild. In this kind of game, the whole game IS endgame.

The game IS actually meant to play to 50 and grind (50 is not the softcap, 55 is, but you are supposed to rush to 50 and then do the rest). The level curve in KR is absurdly fast and easy in order to facilitate that as was the Korean design of leaving PvP until level 50. Western gamers asked that leveling be slowed down, as well as asking for other changes, but it was not the developer's intent for the game to work that way. You've heard the phrase that the 1-50 leveling was intended as a tutorial and that is the truth.

The game is completely centered around Guild vs Guild PvP and Siege/Node war PvP, with all of the node, crafting, worker, trade, etc. systems built to support that and any endgame PvPer is near required to participate in many of those activities (especially those interested in seiging). So mix that with the necessary endgame grind for levels, skill points, and gear, and the massive imbalance of it all along with the need to no-life it to keep up with the endless progression. It's niche and a lot of people are going to be hit with reality once they get to that hardcore PvP endgame. The masses aren't going to enjoy that long-term. Sure there is a community that loves that, but it's a smaller community.

But the sandboxy activities aren't meant to exist in a vacuum. This game wasn't mean for player to player trade and it doesn't need it. PvPers will want to craft items to help themselves gear up at endgame, they'll want cook and do alchemy for endgame buff consumables, they'll want to level up their workers for the necessary crafting required to prepare for sieges, they'll connect and level up nodes to improve drop rates at their favorite farming spots, they'll fish and farm and other activities to earn money to support the endgame progression, etc.

Like most Korean games (and this differs from how Western devs design games), the developers expect the players to take part in all of the game's content and design the content to be interdependent and to benefit the players that partake in all of it. It's the same reason why guild quests exist, and why boss scrolls exist - these are both big group PvE activities, that are necessary daily activities for PvP guilds to partake in to gear up, and level up their guilds so they can partake in more GvGs.

So BDO definitely has an endgame and it starts at 50+ when a variety of other endgame activities open up to you. The endgame is open world PvP via constant GvG wars, Castle sieges, and node sieges. Every single activity in BDO centers around supporting that endgame and players partaking in that endgame will need to participate in a lot of non-PvP activities in order to PvP. This is completely normal for any Korean game - Aion and TERA are two examples of Korean games that forced you to PvP, PvE, craft, and do other activities all at once to progress in any particular area of the game. BDO's PvP nature has been reinforced numerous times by the devs and their content updates with Valencia have also reinforced that nature (and they will continue to reinforce this with the Valencia Part 3 update that will include maritime PVP and more boats).

I understand a lot of Western MMO writers (on this site and others) along with a few players, want to make this game out to be the casual do-as-you-please sandbox that they desperately want, but you can't force something to be what it's not. The fact remains blatantly clear to anyone that has played endgame or even researched it. BDO has a very clear and firm OwPVP endgame and all the game's systems are very well designed to support that - beginning after the 1-50 level tutorial of the game. It's grindy as hell and imbalanced, but that's the game's design.

Play however you like, but these are the facts.

derfritz · March 2016

SEANMCAD said:

TheHiveLeader said:

...I think you misunderstood. By "the whole game IS endgame" he doesn't mean that everything before endgame is meaningless. He means THE ENTIRE GAME from the second you log in, is essentially endgame.

which properly translated doesnt mean that mid and early game activities are meaningless but rather they dont exist.

think on that given what you said.

never the less, I am not sure why gamers dont see this but in most games in which end game is a goal the first 40 hours of game play is basically just a barriar to get to the game you want and doesnt add really any value to the overall game play and could very well be completely removed.

Except there are other ways to build an economy in this game which don't consist in rushing to max level which is what the whole trade route/node/worker system is for.

BlurBleh · March 2016

To many people the end game is about having every best-in-slot piece of equipment with maximum enchantment. The rest of the game is about making enough money to do that.

SEANMCAD · March 2016

Sovrath said:

SEANMCAD said:

which properly translated doesnt mean that mid and early game activities are meaningless but rather they dont exist.

think on that given what you said.

never the less, I am not sure why gamers dont see this but in most games in which end game is a goal the first 40 hours of game play is basically just a barriar to get to the game you want and doesnt add really any value to the overall game play and could very well be completely removed.

uh, what a cynical way of looking at it. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people who, once they get to "end game" in most games, stop. They don't want to raid for gear ad infinitum.

Sorry I can't get on board with that take on it.

I dont see how my analysis is cynical. Forgive me but I dont play these games so I am looking at it a bit as an outsider. If the majority of players in a game play the game to play endgame then it seems a good way to improve everyones game experience

Sovrath · March 2016

SEANMCAD said:

Sovrath said:

SEANMCAD said:

which properly translated doesnt mean that mid and early game activities are meaningless but rather they dont exist.

think on that given what you said.

never the less, I am not sure why gamers dont see this but in most games in which end game is a goal the first 40 hours of game play is basically just a barriar to get to the game you want and doesnt add really any value to the overall game play and could very well be completely removed.

uh, what a cynical way of looking at it. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people who, once they get to "end game" in most games, stop. They don't want to raid for gear ad infinitum.

Sorry I can't get on board with that take on it.

I dont see how my analysis is cynical. Forgive me but I dont play these games so I am looking at it a bit as an outsider. If the majority of players in a game play the game to play endgame then it

I don't really know that a majority do play to get to end game. I do agree with you in that there are definitely people who play for "end game" and who have actually made posts (on these forums) proposing that level 1 be the raid part.

But there is a whole other group that doesn't play to raid and raid and raid. I suppose I found the cynical part to be the whole "take away the mid game might as well be removed" when to me and others that IS the best part of the game.

of course I also enjoy pvp so for me everything that supports pvp is a positive.

holdenhamlet · March 2016

BillMurphy said:

fed79 said:

holdenhamlet said:

BDO seems to get the most praise from people who haven't reached level cap yet. Eventually they'll get there, and I wonder how they'll feel about the game then.

I've read tons of posts from people saying things like, "I'm level 25 and having a blast- check out this boat I made!" but not a single one from someone saying, "I'm level 50 and having a blast!"

Very well said, totally agree. End game, once most get bored of afk fishing etc, is going to be a shock.

I think you're missing my point. BDO isn't meant to be played just to hit the soft cap and then find some PVE to grind. It's supposed to be a world where you set up a trade/craft/territory control empire by yourself and with your guild. In this kind of game, the whole game IS endgame.

Yeah but eventually you have all the nodes connected. You have all your craft stuff set up. Then what?

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