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Map systems and player known locations

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  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 611
    edited March 2016
    Dullahan said:
    Have no fear, fellow explorer, there will be no gps or minimap in Pantheon.
    I'd play it with or without. Pantheon will be niche. I don't expect it to perfectly fit what I want. But it's nice every so often to get mad.

    It's a waste of effort to research Pantheon at this point. What is it, alpha or prealpha? That's like Adam and Eve compared to Trump.

    I'm not holding my breath. But this forum is fun.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Dullahan said:
    Have no fear, fellow explorer, there will be no gps or minimap in Pantheon.
    I'd play it with or without. Pantheon will be niche. I don't expect it to perfectly fit what I want. But it's nice every so often to get mad.

    It's a waste of effort to research Pantheon at this point. What is it, alpha or prealpha? That's like Adam and Eve compared to Trump.

    I'm not holding my breath. But this forum is fun.
    They are opening pre-alpha testing soon. They plan to show some early gameplay on twitch beginning Friday night (today), and revealing the game at game conferences this year.


  • qyte64qyte64 Member UncommonPosts: 2
    edited March 2016
    Dullahan said:
    Have no fear, fellow explorer, there will be no gps or minimap in Pantheon.
    well there is a compass in the game screenshots section althrough rather pre..pre..alpha

    Edit1: The icons of the game plus the right hand bar illustration is absolutely amazing imho.

    And given the fact that there is already a section in their website titled 

    Atlas of Terminus

    I guess one can interact with the 4K resolution atlas (https://pantheonmmo.com/images/atlas-hi-res.jpg) and put some type of pins / coords on it for a webview at least.



    Edit2: The crowns on the map are the races' starting zones. I can't yet decide if that is really needed nowadays but it sure brings back memories.
    Post edited by qyte64 on
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    qyte64 said:
    Dullahan said:
    Have no fear, fellow explorer, there will be no gps or minimap in Pantheon.
    well there is a compass in the game screenshots section althrough rather pre..pre..alpha

    Edit1: The icons of the game plus the right hand bar illustration is absolutely amazing imho.

    And given the fact that there is already a section in their website titled 

    Atlas of Terminus

    I guess one can interact with the 4K resolution atlas (https://pantheonmmo.com/images/atlas-hi-res.jpg) and put some type of pins / coords on it for a webview at least.



    Edit2: The crowns on the map are the races' starting zones. I can't yet decide if that is really needed nowadays but it sure brings back memories.
    I think racial starting areas are crucial for providing a varied player experience and to spread out the population. It encourages player to replay the game, and also gives the world a more storied feel if done right.


  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    Dullahan said:

    Have no fear, fellow explorer, there will be no gps or minimap in Pantheon.
    Respectfully, I have not seen that announced as an indelible decision that cannot be changed after testing. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • zanfirezanfire Member UncommonPosts: 953
    I dont know if EQ had it, but it was something i liked in XI which is a "Hub City". It is where the higher leveled people would gather that is more centralized to the high lvl areas (and surrounded by higher lvl areas). The way the map that is show with the starter citys it would seem like most people would keep to their own areas and that there doesnt seem to be a place that is relatively far away from all starting areas that would house a lot of the top end stuff.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited March 2016
    Amathe said:
    Dullahan said:

    Have no fear, fellow explorer, there will be no gps or minimap in Pantheon.
    Respectfully, I have not seen that announced as an indelible decision that cannot be changed after testing. 
    Well you could argue anything could be changed after testing, but they've confirmed no minimap or gps on numerous occasions. Just a quick search of "map" on Pantheon forums came up with :

    Kilsin said:
    This is very true and we are not having a minimap in Pantheon, so I know community members will map area's (and the entire game) themselves but they will have to travel and work together to do it, so it does bring people together in a community sense, working towards a greater goal of sharing navigation information and I think that is pretty cool.


  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
     Just a quick search of "map" on Pantheon forums came up with :

    Kilsin said:
    This is very true and we are not having a minimap in Pantheon, so I know community members will map area's (and the entire game) themselves but they will have to travel and work together to do it, so it does bring people together in a community sense, working towards a greater goal of sharing navigation information and I think that is pretty cool.
    As a non-member I have not had much luck searching the Pantheon forums. Maybe I'm doing it wrong?

    I could be mistaken of course. Time will tell if that is a feature the players will accept or reject. I can remember features that were not going to be in Vanguard that ended up being in Vanguard. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 611
    edited March 2016
    Amathe said:
     Just a quick search of "map" on Pantheon forums came up with :

    Kilsin said:
    This is very true and we are not having a minimap in Pantheon, so I know community members will map area's (and the entire game) themselves but they will have to travel and work together to do it, so it does bring people together in a community sense, working towards a greater goal of sharing navigation information and I think that is pretty cool.
    As a non-member I have not had much luck searching the Pantheon forums. Maybe I'm doing it wrong?

    I could be mistaken of course. Time will tell if that is a feature the players will accept or reject. I can remember features that were not going to be in Vanguard that ended up being in Vanguard. 
    This is why I said Pantheon is still pre-alpha or alpha. We don't know what it wil be. it's worthless to watch what's going on right now. And I honestly don't want to know anyway. I want to be surprised when it's released.

    But even though I don't like radars and GPS, I hope those things are in it when--or if--it launches. I know it's weird to say I want something in it I don't like, but the margin of error is too small for them to increase the risk. MMO's as they're even when you play it safe are risky. Loook at all the failed WoW clones which have a fraction of the population they wanted.

    Besides I have other choices. I can play Wurm Online for no GPS. And there're other things too I can do. It's not a one choice world.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Amathe said:
     Just a quick search of "map" on Pantheon forums came up with :

    Kilsin said:
    This is very true and we are not having a minimap in Pantheon, so I know community members will map area's (and the entire game) themselves but they will have to travel and work together to do it, so it does bring people together in a community sense, working towards a greater goal of sharing navigation information and I think that is pretty cool.
    As a non-member I have not had much luck searching the Pantheon forums. Maybe I'm doing it wrong?

    I could be mistaken of course. Time will tell if that is a feature the players will accept or reject. I can remember features that were not going to be in Vanguard that ended up being in Vanguard. 
    This is why I said Pantheon is still pre-alpha or alpha. We don't know what it wil be. it's worthless to watch what's going on right now.
    They've actually said plainly several times that there will be no minimap. The earliest builds had one. Players were adamant that they did not want it, and it was removed. A lot of things are up in the air, but that isn't one of them.


  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    I have to laugh at this thread.  IF you hate not having a mini-map, own it by saying you can't play without one.
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

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    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

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    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

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  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 611
    edited March 2016
    Dullahan said:
    They've actually said plainly several times that there will be no minimap. The earliest builds had one. Players were adamant that they did not want it, and it was removed. A lot of things are up in the air, but that isn't one of them.
    You may be right and they'll never change on this. I'll give you that.

    Maybe another reason I am this way is because I'm preparing for the worst. Unlike a lot of fans, I know from history you really can't trust what'll occur. I don't want to get my hopes up and then get burned.
    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
  • ScummScumm Member UncommonPosts: 78
    Did anyone notice (from the Twitch stream) that there are little arrow pointers next to your group members names?

      


    I don't think I like them.  I know Brad wants to make sure it's easy for groups to get together and stay together, but this feels a bit too far to me.  It's an external solution for a problem that should have a gameplay solution.  Maybe something as simple as a spell that allows you to 'sense party' when it's cast on you.  
  • ScummScumm Member UncommonPosts: 78
    Also, it looks like there is a compass and a map icon for the time being.  This could change of course, but it's in there now.

    I don't mind the compass TOO much, but I would definitely prefer it if you were required to have a compass in your inventory.  

    As for the map icon, I'm still hoping it only shows a rough map once you've acquired one:

      
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    Scumm said:
    Also, it looks like there is a compass and a map icon for the time being.  This could change of course, but it's in there now.

    I don't mind the compass TOO much, but I would definitely prefer it if you were required to have a compass in your inventory.  

    As for the map icon, I'm still hoping it only shows a rough map once you've acquired one:

      
    Compass dependent on sense heading skill!


  • ScummScumm Member UncommonPosts: 78
    I'm into that idea, but how about only for classes like Ranger, Druid, Rogue, and Bard? (More Interdependency!) 
  • kjempffkjempff Member RarePosts: 1,705
    edited March 2016
    The system I would advocate is a compromise, but also something that has not been tried before.

    1. There will be maps, but a new started character will not have any. Maps is something you obtain by various means. 
    2. Maps will be a varied quality, from very rough drafts to drafts with a few markers - No map will ever be an exact or to scale representation. Imagine if you went outside with paper, pencil/paint and had to make a map using your eyes and distance&scale judgement.
    3. Maps will NEVER show yourself, players or npc on it, so a map is something you look at and then try to approximate your location by looking at the world around you. ex: I am at a big river with a two pointed mountain behind, according to my map I am probably around here, and if I follow the river north I will find the bridge.
    4. Dungeon maps would be even less accurate, because as you can imagine, it is very hard to judge direction and distance underground. Dungeon maps would mostly be more like a series of point of interest markers maybe with some scribbled notes. Again finding your way around a dungeon, should be about looking at the surroundings and see if the map matches any of it.

    The mapless 1999 eq had the advantage that you had to learn your way around but it just resulted in people printing out maps instead and hotkeyed a /loc key .. and moving by /loc key was about as fun as counting ants. On the other hand I don't like the modern ingame maps where you look at your map more than the world. So this seem to me like a compromise that could be acceptable for all ?.
    Post edited by kjempff on
  • Kiori001Kiori001 Member UncommonPosts: 18
    I never did play EQ1,  but I liked the map system in Vanguard.    Some of what I have read regarding how things worked in EQ1 sounds interesting.  However I do not want to spend large amounts of time stumbling about in the wops because I suck at orientation 101.  Regardless though of how it is done,  I think I will try the game.  I miss Vanguard and the big open world zones,  seeing multiple groups competing for mobs and bit**ing about trains and so much more.  
  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member UncommonPosts: 611
    edited March 2016
    Scumm said:
    Also, it looks like there is a compass and a map icon for the time being.  This could change of course, but it's in there now.

    I don't mind the compass TOO much, but I would definitely prefer it if you were required to have a compass in your inventory.  

    As for the map icon, I'm still hoping it only shows a rough map once you've acquired one:

      
    I agree, the compass should be in inventory. However, most games don't do that. Wurm Online does, it's just another unique thing about it. Most players just don't care about that. It's abstract, you know?

    Abstraction. 3rd person is a form of it. I don't like that either. Wurm Online has no 3rd person. I've played it for years and don't miss it.

    Bottom line, no GPS and no minimap and no extreme detail maps and no easy compass (the compasses in Wurm Online take several seconds to show direction) means you have to be aware of your environment much more. And in Wurm Online monsters aren't automatically highlighted and you can fall and get hurt. Forests are thick so you can run off a cliff. Nights are dark. Admittedly, a lot of this is /drool once you get a horse and some skills. But the immersion when I first started was incredible. It left Everquest far behind. Unfortunatley, it's all getting forgotten because of high skills and because of carebears. It's slowly losing the immersion. Too bad, so sad.

    Wurm Unlimited was made recently. It's a private single-player or server version of Wurm Online. It's worth looking into for anyone interestd in sandbox or evne survival things. It has a lot of potential.
    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
  • cutbirth01cutbirth01 Member UncommonPosts: 17
    edited March 2016
    Man, it was hard, but I just read through this entire thread. The last two pages became a little easier to read since, well, someone who was overly opinionated and REALLY liked to post 6:1 to all other posters now appears to be banned.  :o 

    For me this is one of those deals that won't be a gamebreaker one way or another, but I think there are tons of fair compromises. 

    I will be happy if there is a cartography system where, for the people who love to explore, maps can be created and sold. I think that for the players that decide to either map an area, or decide to purchase crafted maps they should be able to stop, equip a compass, and, depending on skill level, attempt to determine their location. Once the book is open and the compass is out, a certain amount of time will pass, (goes back to skill level (maybe even the quality of their map))  and they will eventually see a rough approximation of where they are including orientation, or if they are skilled enough and/or have a high quality map they will have an exact location of where they are with orientation.

    The two elements that need to be taken into consideration by the more "hardcore" player base is:

     a) You will be immobile in 1st person looking at a map while you try and determine where you are, thus making you vulnerable to attack. 

    -and-

    b) You are only seeing a temporary location that you lose once you drop your map, and start moving again. This takes away the constant GPS system and makes it more like how people use maps in real life. 

    Not only do I feel like those two conditions are important, but it also needs to be considered that this system will only be available to people who can map their own areas, or the people who can find and purchase the zone map they want.

    From my perspective, this helps build immersion, in addition to creating player commerce. High level zone maps should be hard to make and even harder to complete accurately, so many maps can/would become hard to find and pretty pricey. This type of system has even more levels of gradation if certain zones maps become a rare commodity, and additionally, if each map has a % completion quality per zone. You would find low level areas very common and affordable, and beyond that the sky is the limit. 
  • phoenixfire2phoenixfire2 Member UncommonPosts: 226
    I'm on board with no maps, however other navigation systems such as /loc and a compass are almost required, especially if there is any kind of corpse retrieval death penalty.  I always instinctively did /loc when dying in EQC so I'd know where my corpse was.  As well as I knew the game and terrain it could still take a long time to recover your corpse without /loc in some zones such as the Karanas.
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