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Hard content

This is what I like in an mmo.

I created a new character on a newly found Vanilla WoW server.  I'm only level 7, this is important only level 7.  There is starting area 1-10 called Teldrassil.  On this Island there is a non instance group cave called Ban'ethil Barrow Den.

After collecting a quest to retrieve four Relics, I ventured off.  At the entrance I helped someone fight off a few Gnarlpine Ferblogs and we grouped, just the two of us to tackle the quest at hand.  Well, spending 45 minuets we only collected three of the four.  We died a few times and things went downhill from there, so we finally gave up.

This cave in now on my mind.....I must finish it at all cost late this afternoon when I get home from work.


Grouping at such a low level is unthinkable in most modern games, but this is my plan.  I have three choices, sit at the entrance for more, spam general chat, or sent out pm's, but I will get a group and complete this quest at all cost.  At level 7.

This is what an mmo is !!!!!!!......Try and find something like this in any newer mmo !


I'm confidant Pantheon Rise of the Fallen will have content such as this.  Something I can plan thought the day :)

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Comments

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081

    Side note :

    I added this level 7 Priest to my friends list.  He was good and doesn't give up.  Will play future dungeons together.  Already making friends at level 7 ?.......Find something like that in a newer game !  

  • Pratt2112Pratt2112 Member UncommonPosts: 1,636

    This is what I like in an mmo.

    I created a new character on a newly found Vanilla WoW server.  I'm only level 7, this is important only level 7.  There is starting area 1-10 called Teldrassil.  On this Island there is a non instance group cave called Ban'ethil Barrow Den.

    After collecting a quest to retrieve four Relics, I ventured off.  At the entrance I helped someone fight off a few Gnarlpine Ferblogs and we grouped, just the two of us to tackle the quest at hand.  Well, spending 45 minuets we only collected three of the four.  We died a few times and things went downhill from there, so we finally gave up.

    This cave in now on my mind.....I must finish it at all cost late this afternoon when I get home from work.


    Grouping at such a low level is unthinkable in most modern games, but this is my plan.  I have three choices, sit at the entrance for more, spam general chat, or sent out pm's, but I will get a group and complete this quest at all cost.  At level 7.

    This is what an mmo is !!!!!!!......Try and find something like this in any newer mmo !


    I'm confidant Pantheon Rise of the Fallen will have content such as this.  Something I can plan thought the day :)


    Ahhh yes, I remember that place well, having leveled a few NEs through there. And yes, that place could be a serious pain in the neck. It's one of those places where you were actually a little bit happy if others were there killing stuff, because at least you didn't have to deal with an army of the things swarming you lol.

    But you raise a good point. That was a difficult spot in that area. There's another, near the first town you're sent off to after leaving the starting spot. It's a cave kind of around and behind that village, and there's a stream running through it, etc (I forget the name, obviously :p). That spot could be difficult, too.

    Something that jumped out at me about those spots is that they were open world, and that they were actually really challenging to complete, whether solo or with a small group. I remember a number of spots in early WoW, in fact, that were like that. There's an area in Darkshore, where you had to get to the top of this spot near a cliff to interact with a crystal, with a bunch of moonkins running around. That could also be a painin the neck for a solo player near or at level for that spot.

    Open world dungeons is what MMOs need to bring back in general. This whole thing with "having everything instanced", where everyone gets their own personal "copy" of the world was one of the first nails in the sense of adventure and wonder MMORPGs could once bring.
  • Pratt2112Pratt2112 Member UncommonPosts: 1,636
    edited January 2016
    DMKano said:
    OP - you could have just said

    EQ1 - runnyeye, Upper Guk, or any othwe lowbie dungeon. They were all hard at their level.

    If that's all they'd said, people who didn't play EQ1 would have no idea what they were talking about.

    Post edited by Pratt2112 on
  • AmatheAmathe Member LegendaryPosts: 7,630
    No mention of Crushbone Castle in EQ1. I loved that place. It was my first experience of mmo grouping. 

    EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests

  • BenjolaBenjola Member UncommonPosts: 843
    edited January 2016
    No love for Beffalen?
    Understandable, a nightmare for unprepared players and Leroy Jenkinses =)
    Post edited by Benjola on

    I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.

  • AngryElfAngryElf Member UncommonPosts: 194
    Blackburrow.  
  • JurisDictumJurisDictum Member UncommonPosts: 31
    Blackburrow fangs are highly underrated for leveling. There are several really good sweet spots for solo/small group exp in BB as well. Nevertheless, it is Crushbone that is considered the best newb leveling zone. It has an insain +EXP modifier and Crushbone Belts/Bracers. In reality however, the place is over camped. This is of course, based on p99 not live. But I assume that Crushbone was very popular on live as well (p99 is x10 more top heavy than live classic EQ was). 

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081

    Thankfully everyone gets my point.  It's not about WoW, but what an mmo is :)

    What separate's an mmo from just another online rpg is working with others.  NOTHING released in the past 7 or so years has anything to do with an mmo.  Add a cash shop and you have an even bigger pile of garbage.

  • ThebeastttThebeasttt Member RarePosts: 1,130
    lol how is vanilla wow any part of a hard content discussion?? That game was one of the first carebear MMO's ever made, hence the popularity. Pantheon is dead in the water if the "vets" think vanilla wow is an example of old school MMO gaming.
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    lol how is vanilla wow any part of a hard content discussion?? That game was one of the first carebear MMO's ever made, hence the popularity. Pantheon is dead in the water if the "vets" think vanilla wow is an example of old school MMO gaming.


    lol this has nothing to do with the point.  I'm talking about a hard situation and how to overcome it, that is not in newer games. It's also about being social.

    All this proves is that your letting us know your not a carebear :)

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    lol how is vanilla wow any part of a hard content discussion?? That game was one of the first carebear MMO's ever made, hence the popularity. Pantheon is dead in the water if the "vets" think vanilla wow is an example of old school MMO gaming.


    It's a "better than" example and to be honest, having played vanilla myself now it's nothing like retail currently is, or most newer MMOs out, which was the OP's point. It's the idea that every encounter isn't guaranteed and this opens up the kind of interactions that happened in the story above. While I think the term "hard content" is not only on a spectrum but subjective, the idea that sometimes the player won't be successful is the key. If I wanted a participation trophy I'd play tee ball. ;)

    As a side note I couldn't even go in that barrow den solo as a pre-10 Hunter. I could only get the Shamans outside down to 40% before they would heal and after a few of those heals, mana still at about 60%, another mob would path too close and social aggro. I also had to enlist help to get the quest done and luckily the server is populated enough to always have a chunk of people in the zone.

  • NitthNitth Member UncommonPosts: 3,904

    Grouping at such a low level is unthinkable in most modern games, but this is my plan.  I have three choices, sit at the entrance for more, spam general chat, or sent out pm's, but I will get a group and complete this quest at all cost.  At level 7.

    This is what an mmo is !!!!!!!......Try and find something like this in any newer mmo !

    Heres a question:
    Do you think that is because of a design flaw in games or a change in gamer mentality?

    Most games actually have the capacity for grouping but players choose not to. The phasing out of "forced grouping" is a reflection of what the majority of players want, which is sad.

    However i'm skeptical of niche games that try to address this because you need a critical mass of players to make this work so you wont be standing around for hours looking for group.

    image
    TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development

  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member RarePosts: 620
    edited March 2016
    Nice comment Nitth. I love the thread OP! YOu're so right. That's what an MMO is. It's not a single player thing. It's open world, preferably less instancing. Too much instancing just makes it Massively Multiplayer Online

    Nitth brings up some important points. Pantheon has to figure out how to enable the population--however small it may be--to facilitate effective grouping at all level ranges. Whether it's young or old! Whether there's just a trickle of new players or a flood of them!

    it's a big challenge. I hope it succeeds because I want to play it!
    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
  • Curt2013Curt2013 Member UncommonPosts: 66
    I remember great times like this in eqoa, even at early levels groups were forming because if you didn't life was tough, and it was a great way to meet folks. 

    Then Vanguard came along and they had some awesome early lvl dungeons that I hope VR can somehow rekindle.

    Great Stuff
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    Curt2013 said:
    I remember great times like this in eqoa, even at early levels groups were forming because if you didn't life was tough, and it was a great way to meet folks. 

    Then Vanguard came along and they had some awesome early lvl dungeons that I hope VR can somehow rekindle.

    Great Stuff


    Vanguard, remember Khegor's End in Three Rivers ?.......I did most dungeons in Vanguard, they were all great and so different from each other.  But Khegor's End was the most ran because it was the first serious one.

    Even the entrance was well guarded, it was always best to wait for your group at the Dam before you got close.  We would spend hours in their.  Groups knew they had no choice to collect themselves after each hard fight, no running and gunning......Many friends to be made in Vanguard's dungeons :)

    One thing I must say, I never actually finished the very end.  The actual end was extremely hard.  In fact, One time we met up with another group at the very end and both groups together couldn't finish it.  It seemed to oddly ramp up in level near the end.

    I miss that feeling of friendship. 

  • wesjrwesjr Member UncommonPosts: 506
    Benjola said:
    No love for Beffalen?
    Understandable, a nightmare for unprepared players and Leroy Jenkinses =)

    Befallen was awesome, I remember the first time I make the mistake of jumping in the well. Lol
  • Damage99Damage99 Member UncommonPosts: 202
    edited March 2016
    Ahh Crushbone!  Crush's camp is dangerous in the low teens.  What a great zone though it holds a lot of memories
    Post edited by Damage99 on
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,090
    Nitth said:

    Grouping at such a low level is unthinkable in most modern games, but this is my plan.  I have three choices, sit at the entrance for more, spam general chat, or sent out pm's, but I will get a group and complete this quest at all cost.  At level 7.

    This is what an mmo is !!!!!!!......Try and find something like this in any newer mmo !

    Heres a question:
    Do you think that is because of a design flaw in games or a change in gamer mentality?

    Most games actually have the capacity for grouping but players choose not to. The phasing out of "forced grouping" is a reflection of what the majority of players want, which is sad.

    However i'm skeptical of niche games that try to address this because you need a critical mass of players to make this work so you wont be standing around for hours looking for group.
    I think the whole idea of "forced grouping" is a bit cynical.

    In most modern games, if you group there really isn't much of a point other than to tag along and share a private chat channel.

    While I'm very comfortable and happy to solo I find that there is a very different experience when it comes to grouping and taking on a challenge that requires team work.

    So do most games have the capacity for grouping? Sure, but there really is little point other than to hang around.

    While I think all games should have solo content I also think they should have content that requires either an excellent solo player (with the idea that everything might not be killable) or that would work well with a small group.


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  • TyggsTyggs Member UncommonPosts: 456
    Kurn's.... So many trains.

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  • VelocinoxVelocinox Member UncommonPosts: 1,010
    Pratt2112 said:

    Open world dungeons is what MMOs need to bring back in general. This whole thing with "having everything instanced", where everyone gets their own personal "copy" of the world was one of the first nails in the sense of adventure and wonder MMORPGs could once bring.
    Yea, because nothing says adventure and sense of wonder like...

    /shout CAMP CHECK?

    King
    Ass!
    Frenzy

    /shout AM?

    Camped!

    ...Shin Ghouls Camped!

    /shout Shin Ghouls aren't a camp...

    ...They are tonight, the dungeon is full! Go somewhere else!


    You could completely explore Lower Guk with a newbie in tow and never face a mob. Sorry, but 'Take a Number' dungeons does not mean adventure to me. Besides, your idea of what instancing is comes from the 90s. Today's instancing (or phasing as it's become known) can give you a personal experience without separating you from the rest of the game.

    'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.


    When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.


    No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.


    How to become a millionaire:
    Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.

  • LetsinodLetsinod Member UncommonPosts: 385
    lol how is vanilla wow any part of a hard content discussion?? That game was one of the first carebear MMO's ever made, hence the popularity. Pantheon is dead in the water if the "vets" think vanilla wow is an example of old school MMO gaming.
    Your nutty.  Vanilla WOW was challenging.  You die quite a bit.  Try the emu and see.
  • AngryElfAngryElf Member UncommonPosts: 194
    Velocinox said:
    Pratt2112 said:

    Open world dungeons is what MMOs need to bring back in general. This whole thing with "having everything instanced", where everyone gets their own personal "copy" of the world was one of the first nails in the sense of adventure and wonder MMORPGs could once bring.
    Yea, because nothing says adventure and sense of wonder like...

    /shout CAMP CHECK?

    King
    Ass!
    Frenzy

    /shout AM?

    Camped!

    ...Shin Ghouls Camped!

    /shout Shin Ghouls aren't a camp...

    ...They are tonight, the dungeon is full! Go somewhere else!


    You could completely explore Lower Guk with a newbie in tow and never face a mob. Sorry, but 'Take a Number' dungeons does not mean adventure to me. Besides, your idea of what instancing is comes from the 90s. Today's instancing (or phasing as it's become known) can give you a personal experience without separating you from the rest of the game.

    Last year TLPs were exactly this.  However, this was largely because of boxing.  Boxing makes content immensely easier due to scripts and knowing exactly what each char is doing.  

    I'm not anti-box, but open-world content will stay hard and valid if you can actually get 4-6 players participating, rather than 1-2 per "camp".  It's a philosophical argument to be sure, but many argue that phasing floods the market with "rare" drops and makes earning coin more complicated.  

    This is a taboo subject, so I don't want to get deep into it, but if the game was designed so anything more than a 2-box was undesirable, it might improve how communities develop.  It might leave more room for PuG dungeon crawling as the OP has indicated improves the enjoyment of the game. 
  • RallydRallyd Member UncommonPosts: 95
    We've had this conversation many times on these forums, but it may need to be said again.. boxing shouldn't be condoned by VR for Pantheon, even if you claim that any use of 3rd party programs to automate boxing is illegal, there is still the fact that I can take my G15 keyboard and set up macros to make my cleric heal me and buff me with ease... and that's not fair for everyone to have to do that to compete.
  • LokeroLokero Member RarePosts: 1,514
    Velocinox said:
    Pratt2112 said:

    Open world dungeons is what MMOs need to bring back in general. This whole thing with "having everything instanced", where everyone gets their own personal "copy" of the world was one of the first nails in the sense of adventure and wonder MMORPGs could once bring.
    Yea, because nothing says adventure and sense of wonder like...

    /shout CAMP CHECK?

    King
    Ass!
    Frenzy

    /shout AM?

    Camped!

    ...Shin Ghouls Camped!

    /shout Shin Ghouls aren't a camp...

    ...They are tonight, the dungeon is full! Go somewhere else!


    You could completely explore Lower Guk with a newbie in tow and never face a mob. Sorry, but 'Take a Number' dungeons does not mean adventure to me. Besides, your idea of what instancing is comes from the 90s. Today's instancing (or phasing as it's become known) can give you a personal experience without separating you from the rest of the game.
    I feel this is sort of a mixed bag.  I personally prefer open-world everything, but I also see the need for certain instancing.

    Frankly, what I would like to see more of is the following:

    Everything is public and open-world.
    However, guild groups/pre-formed groups can somehow get access to an instanced version of dungeons/raids when they need them.  It would serve to give guilds more of a purpose and togetherness, while also keeping the open world dungeons for the random explorer/PUG grouper.

    This way the world is open but when your guild is ready to start a raid or camp something, you can do it on your own schedule, etc. 
    Maybe even a full guild instance your guild can earn/buy for dungeons.  That'd be kind of cool.  Then your whole guild could share a dungeon and divvy up the camps or whatever.
  • Hawkaya399Hawkaya399 Member RarePosts: 620
    edited March 2016
    Velocinox said:
    You could completely explore Lower Guk with a newbie in tow and never face a mob. Sorry, but 'Take a Number' dungeons does not mean adventure to me. Besides, your idea of what instancing is comes from the 90s. Today's instancing (or phasing as it's become known) can give you a personal experience without separating you from the rest of the game.
    Too often instancing is just an excuse to separate yourself from contested content or otherwise from others in general. Phasing is nice, I suppose, but I still don't like it. I think part of the magic in Everquest was going to an area and sometimes not finding good spots. During that time you'd also be watching others and learning things you might not already know. It's not perfect and sometimes it was frustrating, but for me it made Everquest special. People also forget the downtime spawned friendships.

    I realize the above is going to send some heads spinning, thinking I'm just a old timer with nostalgia. But oftnetimes things in life aren't black and white. It wasn't just all bad in old Everquest. I went on Project 1999 and confirmed it wasn't just all nostalgia. And I've also confirmed in other games not everybody experiences it the same. For example, in one MMO I liked the new player experience and posted in support. But others didn't like it and they were a majority. Years later, the herd of players are finally getting their way. What gets me angry is I never supported it, ever, even when I was  new player! Players like me are trampled and ignored because we're so few and far between.

    I don't think I'm a masochist or sadist. I think I want some frustration or adversity in it. I don't want a "gamey" MMORPG. I think I want it to parallel life somewhat. Not completely. It needs to be practical.

    Enough about me and all that. I would like to see MMO's try other things to address contested contentt issues.

    Things like:
    1) Increase difficulty and experience rewards when population increases
    ..... This was done in Diablo 1/2 to adjust to the population which was from 1 to 8. 1 person logged in could clear everything and this meant more people makes it worse. With several people logged in the monsters were harder to kill and gave greater rewards, meaning players couldn't just mop the floor with them and the server would  tick around longer.
    ..... In an MMO it'd have to be slightly different. It wouldn't be based on the number logged in, but on the number in an area. Areas might also need to have more flexible safe spots, if Pantheon choosed to have safe spots. This is because if the monsters are changing in difficulty then the positions of the players will change, depending on their progress.

    2) More accessible fast travel, at least to key areas
    ..... So if you come to a contested area and there's no room, you can more quickly find something else. So less back-tracking and more meaningful travel.
    Note: I don't like dungeon finders. Neither did I like the OMM's in EQ where you automatically ported to the dungeon IN POK (of all places!) and death penalties were removed. More accessible fast travel doesn't mean easy or cheap travel. It should require active thinking. I think the best systems are player-driven. The mark/recall system in UO is an example. In the case of EQ, more bind points and more bind locations and a way to recall to them would be comparable. The system can still be player interdependent.

    3) Dungeon clones with slight changes
    ..... This is like phasing except players can choose to enter whichever clone they want. The clones are essentially the same with only slight variations in the layout or monsters. The entrance might be very close to the other one or at least in the same region.
    ..... This is very similar to phasing, but more limited:
    a) you can choose to enter any of the clones, you're not forced into one
    b) the entrances are separate and exist in the world
    c) drop rates might be reduced, depending on the number of clones and design strategy

    4) Dynamic content which is shared
    ..... This content could be random and have a random entrance which appears or disappears dependent on population concerns.
    ..... It might also be spawn rate or spawn amount for a given "camp" or location. This would chagne dependent on population.
    Note: This is very similar to (1), but I make  a distinction as this is not just a change in difficulty but in quantity
    Post edited by Hawkaya399 on
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