That is not what I said. I said that you are not required to continue updating your appearance with appearance slots. That is, as soon as you find a look you like, you are not required to continue any progression with appearance. You can choose to not look for anything else and wear the same thing indefinitely. With stat based gear, you must continually search out new gear to continue progressing. If there is no appearance slots, then the player will also be required to continue looking for gear that they find visually appealing.
It is irrelevant if someone will or not, the fact is that the continued progression is removed as a requirement. So, without appearance tabs, you will always appear with the gear that you have which is practical in play. You won't be able to wear that level 10 item at level 50 because you think it looks better. If you only have acquired a generic common item at level 50, then you will look like it is and those who were able to get a nicer looking item will appear as that. Again, no magical overlay to wear a level 1 robe at the higher levels because you like the look. You will be required to continue progressing to gain not only stat gear, but if you desire a certain look, you will have to put in the effort to obtain that at the appropriate level as well.
Right... its "irrelevant" what actual players would do and have done in the past when your entire argument relies on this claim that players wont look for better gear (visually) if there is an appearance tab. How convenient. I already said appearance gear can be for both low level and the very same higher level gear you speak of. Meaning putting in the effort for a 'desired' look will always be there, itll likely be with higher level, more detailed gear, but youre hanging on to the level 10 forever! rhetoric for dear life.
Regardless this has already been solved by games featuring such a system, by tying the "appearance" to the gear itself. Take FFXIV for example, any upgrade requires the entire process of collecting mats, finding the right craft items, and investing in the change. Oh right but you think itll be this effortless stalemate for players who wont bother to look for 'desired' visual upgrades they can wear because they can find visual upgrades they can ... display. Oh! You think that appearance tabs will magically make players "desire" that epic level 10 look over level 100!?
Seems you just rinse and repeated the same point again so ill try and cut the repetition down.
With appearance tabs, you don't have to and you get to look like that cool level 10 robe regardless of your level which makes the person who did get a really cool looking robe of the proper level less valuable.
Oh there is actual value now? So if both hypothetical players had to get the same robe itd be more valuable for some reason? Im assuming youre referring to a more subjective "feeling" of value but then whose "feelings" are you talking about? The guy who doesnt care that there is better looking, higher level gear? Or the one who thought that robes unique look was better and went for it? Like I said before, if a player "desires" a certain look, he will go for it. He may backtrack, he may look ahead, but just like stats, a players 'desire' change. If this level 10 geared player liked any of those robes for the looks, he'd go for those. If he didnt, then he'd just get whichever one lands on him first (assuming equal stats) and move along. You cant MAKE someone like a robe. The reality is an appearance feature actually increases a players ambition for different gear. They scour the net, ask around, maybe a new piece comes out, maybe get some inspiration from someone elses "appearance" and go for it themselves. Or is that fact "irrelevant" too?
How valuable is that robe going to be to either of them when they have to upgrade without appearance tabs? Where is your "value" then? Five levels later hell be putting on something he may hate because you know, an appearance tab would let some other guy he'll never meet get lazy with "looks" and go for some other robe ... and that would "devalue" that gear so he may as well throw away now.....
And do you honestly expect a small studio like VR to pump out 20+ variations of what is basically the same stats with different skins? Every time there is new content added?
All are required, it doesn't matter if your care or not. If you want to look good, if looking a certain way is important to you, then you will have to "consistently" (that is the key here) search out new gear to look that way.
Will you stop pretending this wont be the same with an appearance feature? That people wont want to consistently upgrade to a newer better look as more gear becomes available. That is false. This is not an actual problem. There is NO change here what so ever. This broad assumption you're making like its this widespread problem has purely circumstantial just isnt the truth of it. This hypothetical player that is content looking like level 10 all the time is so minuscule it makes YOUR entire argument irrelevant. To claim that some tiny population of high level players that are content with his level 10 look will somehow even be noticed or detrimental to the "value" of more detailed high level look is about as hyperbole as it gets.
Most players, specially if there is some kind of fee, or work attached, ignore an appearance tab until closer or even AT end game. When they can afford it and when all available gear is obtainable. Do you honestly believe someone will not go after a certain end game robe because there is an appearance tab? Even if there are multiple robes of comparable stats, why on earth do you believe he wont just go for his/her favorite in the first place?
Appearance slots serve no real purpose than giving convenience to someone to look as they want at any time.
No they allow a players the most detailed customization of their character to look a certain way where he would otherwise be unable to and still remain functional within the game. Developers cannot be expected to continuously provide multiple equally stated gear slots to accommodate players looks, despite what you may think. Convenience is simply for making something easier, an appearance feature gives players an opportunity to do something they otherwise cant. Im not for convenience in this game, I dont even want the /loc either, however this is not a convenience. Its a side activity players can further play with which promotes all kinds of game play this the developers at Pantheon claim to want in their tenets. And you think some rando in a level 10 outfit is worth sacrificing that? Gimme a break.
With no appearance slots, you must either take the stat hit by wearing a lesser item or put on another item with better stats, but doesn't give you the look you wanted. Again, continued game play.
Thats not continued game play, thats actually just blocking additional game play. Players will just go for the best looking option available at the time and thats it. With an appearance feature they can continue moving and customizing every detail of their look without having to screw themselves over in stats. New options come out or are discovered and they go for it as well. Its an additional and completely separate carrot.
It doesn't matter if people will care about their looks or not, some will and a game play element shouldn't be removed because some don't care. It is the same with stats, some people just don't give a crap about stats, but that doesn't mean we should make the need to continue progressing a requirement.
Uh... and this isnt removing a game play element, its about adding one. One YOU want removed or omitted completely because you have this make-believe paranoid sense that itll ruin some vague "value" of certain pieces of gear if some random player doesnt match your personal idea of whatever some X level player should look like. Thats all it really is as this has NO objective negative affect on any game that has ever or any of VR's tenets.
Nope. Doesn't matter. You wear what you are using. I don't see how this is an issue. You want to look a certain way, go find items that you can use that appeal to it. This gives meaning to the work of finding such.
How you looked meant something in EQ. It was a direct show of your current success at that level in the game. Appearance slots throw out that entire concept of play, of achievement. I think if you want "convenience" features, there are tons of games out there you can play dress up in. There are however few if any games that had EQs old "earn your look" style of play.
If you want to be honest here, you are demanding we play your way so the game can have a convenience dress up feature.
ANd there is it. Ah what the hell, once more repetition just to make sure. It doesnt matter to YOU. There arent always "items the appeal to it." A lot of it becomes obsolete and cannot be worn. What youre basically saying to players in that situation is "Too @#&;%ing bad. Cross your fingers and hope there are better ones patched in. Or gimp yourself." Im not arguing that part, I realize yours is more of an "idgaf" approach to other players. My whole point is thats is all it is. Any attempt at claiming itll single handedly significantly impact the game in a negative way is false, a hyperbole argument at best.
Unless you hostely think VR can pump out 10-20+ sets of all kinds of looks, every time there is an upgrade? Thats just naive at best.
You keep basing your argument on the position that there will be a limited selection of gear.
You
also seem to ignore the fact that EQ items were rare, not extremely
common and because of this not everyone had the items. If pantheon
follows this concept in loot rarity, then having an item will be highly
sought after. The look of the FBR was widely sought after, but lets
consider a moment...
What if you allow players to to wear a
level 10 item at level 100? Now, that level 100 player goes back and
camps that robe, because it is cool looking. Also, lots of people start
doing it, even to sell it, you know... because it is cool looking. So
now we have level 100's buying and camping level 10 content just so they
can walk around looking cool, you know... because they don't want to
look like they look in the crappy 100 gear they have.
More hyperbole. First of all do you want VR to make a wide variety of comparable gear? Or do you want rare items? You cant make an argument with one then change it for the other. Are they going to have options for both end game and earlier leveling or is your "consistent" quest for better gear going to be even more impossible for Pantheon? Make up your mind.
Second, more players going for an item that would otherwise disappear a few levels after it was designed? Thats a bad thing to you? A really rare item? Besides your argument is they wont go for that other level 100 items which is false. So long as there is something to look forward to appearance tabs will only be adding something to look back at. What level was FBR again? Could you sell it? What stopped players from farming and banking on that one as well? Are we blaming appearance for the consequences of other features now? Is this even a real thing youve seen before? Or is that irrelevant to you too?
I think it is a joke. It ruins game play on many levels, it allows people to hide
their character progression behind a gimmick overlay. Again, appearance
slots are gimmicks of convenience, not a game play element. If you want
to look good all the time, then you better earn it... "all the time",
not just when it is "convenient" for you.
You have yet to provide an actual game play that gets "ruined" by an appearance feature. Whether or not its a "gimmick" is subjective. Thankfully its completely ignorable by anyone who thinks so. Unfortunately for you until you can actually present a real significant negative consequence, your "opinion" should have no bearing how how others choose to play their character, especially how they look.
You mean with all the games where their systems are streamlined,
homogenized, where their classes systems are dumbed down single purpose
smash a few buttons over and over type games where itemization has been
streamlined to the point where everyone is wearing the same gear because
all the classes are basically the same?
Yeah, BIS is a modern
concept. BIS can be diminished by having complex systems of differing
focuses, varied focus itemization and style allowance, etc...
So,
if the game allows for classes to be played in varying styles and
focuses, BIS has less meaning because what is good for one focus, may
not be good for another.
Like I said, modern games aren't even
games anymore. They are dumbed down entertainment simulators where
number crunching is simply a linear process.
"Diminish," meaning there will always be a 'best.' It cannot be removed completely unless they just start making copies with different skins. Meaning purposefully gimping yourself. Pantheon can try to make a considerable amount of equally stated gear (still far-fethced) for end game but at the end of the day its all subjective to the player if it looks good or not. At least with appearance, he can actually fully customize his character with more detail than ever and if something comes out later that he/she likes, he can go get it. Its rarely if ever, a lazy player wearing level 10.
Players will just go for the best looking option available at the time and thats it.
Exactly, players will have to play the game, constantly seeking the best looking option at the time of their characters options. Yes... you get it..exactly!
No need to go into any of the other discussion. You have commented and admitted to the very point I was getting at.
Players will have to continue to look for gear throughout their progression.
So either you are for game play, continued development and the continued progression of play, or you want "convenience" added to the game so you can have what you want, when you want. just because well.. you want it.
Players will just go for the best looking option available at the time and thats it.
Exactly, players will have to play the game, constantly seeking the best looking option at the time of their characters options. Yes... you get it..exactly!
No need to go into any of the other discussion. You have commented and admitted to the very point I was getting at.
Players will have to continue to look for gear throughout their progression.
So either you are for game play, continued development and the continued progression of play, or you want "convenience" added to the game so you can have what you want, when you want. just because well.. you want it.
/shrug
Except limiting them to whats optimal with stats greatly limits their options, meaning they reach a dead end much faster. Players will be going for that gear regardless just as a goal for stats, if they actually like the look, they will go for that too. Your point is its somehow detrimental to players working and earning their gear when its not. You completely blow this minuscule possibility that SOME players will keep a low level appearance look forever without actually going for higher sets because "they already look cool" when the fact is most players are constantly changing it. It is a very popular feature that becomes its own mini-game in of itself.
You completely misrepresent the feature and its consequences, fail to address any counter points, and completely fail to address the list of advantages it brings to multiple aspects of gameplay as it has done with many other games already. All to make it seem like its just another "convenience" feature of newer MMOs we 'traditionalists' of Pantheon should avoid. The FACT is its not ... luckily Brad doesnt seem as closed off to everything and anything "new" as some of you. All you have is your very own subjective opinionated conservative "feeling" against what another player should be able to do with their own character. Thats fine enough by itself, what you are not going to do twist it into this false idea that it it does anything but benefit game play, add gold sinks, promote crafting, and grouping on top of allowing players to work to customize their own character, in much greater detail, in a role playing game.
Appearance gear, and appearance tabs should be available. There is little reason not to allow people to customize their character's appearance within certain limits.
The key is, within limits. Characters running around in clown outfits and tuxedos is just plain silly and immersion breaking. Characters wanting a matching armor set, not the other hand, is completely reasonable - even if game stats don't support that choice on primary gear slots.
To go one step further, good looking gear and gear with unique appearances should not be restricted to raiding. Appearance is a very good example of Horizontal progression that should be supported by all available means of advancement: raiding, group content, solo play, questing and crafting.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
My trouble with appearance slots are when they: 1) Ignore weight allowances or other game mechanics 2) Allow a warrior to look like a cleric or vice versa
I know weight allowances are less and less common in RPGs and MMORPGs since it's "not fun", but I still hate it when an MMO which otherwise has weight allowance is ignored for appearance items. I understadn the WHY. But IMHO it's just a failure of design if they can't make it work right.
The part about making your warrior look like a cleric is even more annoying. I know illusions should be tolerated somewhat in RPGs, since there're many spells/magic with that effect. But appearance slots aren't magical in nature and are permanent. It's completely anti-immersive.
To me it's just an excuse to have a "fashion simulator", as Sinist
put it. I'm not against players altering their appearance. Everquest had
dyes for changing the color. Sometimes I wore items longer than I
should have because I liked their look. I sometiems salivated at how an item looked. But I respect the game mechanics and don't like things which feel "tacked on". Appearnce slots feel that way. They really don't belong and they're added anyway.
I'd be more in support of something which preserves the value of the appearance of high level items. So maybe you'd combine low level items with high level items to adjust their appearance and it'd be reliant on the original look with some limitations. Sort of like dyes. They do change hte look but with limitations. Something like that, but it changes the shape and texture.
All in all when a mmo or rpg starts to feel too loose and disconnected, it loses me. The world is sacred to me. I don't like it when random or otherwise incoherent things are added onto it. For example, the stupid mounts or models which're added to some MMORPGs just because players like them. For example, the Rudolph/Randolph mount in Vanguard. Hated that so much. It didn't belong but they kept it there because it was "fun". /vomit
At first it was harder. But they kept removed barriers until it was in your face easy and everywhere. They did finally limit its use in 2012, probably because F2P, but damage was done. That kind of s*** made me lost interest in Vanguard much faster than even the gameplay stunts they did. Too many MMO's add things just "because". It's "fun". Excuse me as I vomit again.
Everquest added a lot of that. Over the years, it got worse and worse. You step into POK and it's a circus of inanity. Almost every MMORPG does this. And it's the stupid cash shops pushing it. They get off saying it's not a gameplay bonus. What it's is simple, it's people who don't care about immersion and it's cash shops or otherwise game makers with $$$ in their eyes.
EDIT: And I don't want anybody telling me I should feel sorry for all the people who want to look like XYZ or have XYZ. It's a world, respect it! They're varied. Find one you like. Don't demand all to be the same.
I know I'm coming across inhospitably, but as a longtimer gamer, I realize one must draw a line in the sand. There're enough choices out there for us to do so. If we all could only play one MMO, I'd understand the concerns some bring up. But we're not stuck with one MMO. Some are more popular because they appeal to more people and some are less so. Neither is better than the other. People are different and MMO's are different too. If a MMO is unpopular, it's niche. It's not inferior or invalid, unless it desires to be popular.
IMO the only appearance slot system I could support, however begrudgingly, would be one that had no appearance only fluff type of items. Secondarily you should only be able to equip gear in the appearance slot your class can equip.
I'd rather not have it at all, but I'm not gonna cry into my pillow if they implement one. There really are bigger fish to fry.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
I just don't want this to turn out like how FFXIV is where its basically half a fashion show game and tons of people wear stuff for the "lolz" like going into a boss fight in a swimsuit. FFXIV forums also constantly had "glamour contents" and the like and it really put me off how many people cared far more for the dress up gear than actual new and interesting content. They also packed their cash shop full of the crap. I havent been on those forums for a while now, but i can bet a good portion of the from page of the general chat is that junk.
In FFXI people only really wore the costume stuff or certain stand out gear in the citys, while bazzaring or goofing about in the world for w/e reason (we called it "town gear" for the obvious reasons). I just dont want to play another dressup/costume party game is all. Do it for events or if your looking to show off it the towns, but if its possible keep it limited so i dont have to see what i already have all over again.
I just don't want this to turn out like how FFXIV is where its basically half a fashion show game and tons of people wear stuff for the "lolz" like going into a boss fight in a swimsuit. FFXIV forums also constantly had "glamour contents" and the like and it really put me off how many people cared far more for the dress up gear than actual new and interesting content. They also packed their cash shop full of the crap. I havent been on those forums for a while now, but i can bet a good portion of the from page of the general chat is that junk.
In FFXI people only really wore the costume stuff or certain stand out gear in the citys, while bazzaring or goofing about in the world for w/e reason (we called it "town gear" for the obvious reasons). I just dont want to play another dressup/costume party game is all. Do it for events or if your looking to show off it the towns, but if its possible keep it limited so i dont have to see what i already have all over again.
Yeah FFXIV ruins it with all the glamour stuff... cash shop abuse was a big part of the reason I quit. Still, as much as I disliked the over the top, out of place glamour they allowed, they still had a decent system behind it. They were tied to professions according the gear type, I think they even had level requirements iirc, gear types had to match, every new upgrade needed to be "re-glamoured" if you wanted
That said, I played a Bard. Im sure youll remember how for some reason the developers had this misconception that Bards should dress up like court jesters. Basically medieval clowns. If thats not reason enough for such a feature I dont know what is. Then there were the giant monk weapons which thankfully I heard could be hidden completely. I dont think anyone really wants (or would miss) if they restricted it by allowable gear type and just simply not allow bathing suits and the like (if theyre even in Pantheon) to be glamoured. Most of the issues with appearance features like glamour are part of a bigger problem in MMO's today (cash shop greed, events which have no place in the world) many which have been or could be easily addressed by the developers themselves.
IMO the only appearance slot system I could support, however begrudgingly, would be one that had no appearance only fluff type of items. Secondarily you should only be able to equip gear in the appearance slot your class can equip.
I'd rather not have it at all, but I'm not gonna cry into my pillow if they implement one. There really are bigger fish to fry.
If such a system exists, there needs to be a toggle option to hide appearance gear. I think there should be some neat options for "looks" items, but that they should be equipped in normal slots. If people want to wear that stuff around town, or while in a non-combat situations, than fine. If they have an appearance tab I want the option of hiding that crap and only seeing what they are actually wearing.
Comments
No need to go into any of the other discussion. You have commented and admitted to the very point I was getting at.
Players will have to continue to look for gear throughout their progression.
So either you are for game play, continued development and the continued progression of play, or you want "convenience" added to the game so you can have what you want, when you want. just because well.. you want it.
/shrug
You completely misrepresent the feature and its consequences, fail to address any counter points, and completely fail to address the list of advantages it brings to multiple aspects of gameplay as it has done with many other games already. All to make it seem like its just another "convenience" feature of newer MMOs we 'traditionalists' of Pantheon should avoid. The FACT is its not ... luckily Brad doesnt seem as closed off to everything and anything "new" as some of you. All you have is your very own subjective opinionated conservative "feeling" against what another player should be able to do with their own character. Thats fine enough by itself, what you are not going to do twist it into this false idea that it it does anything but benefit game play, add gold sinks, promote crafting, and grouping on top of allowing players to work to customize their own character, in much greater detail, in a role playing game.
Appearance gear, and appearance tabs should be available. There is little reason not to allow people to customize their character's appearance within certain limits.
The key is, within limits. Characters running around in clown outfits and tuxedos is just plain silly and immersion breaking. Characters wanting a matching armor set, not the other hand, is completely reasonable - even if game stats don't support that choice on primary gear slots.
To go one step further, good looking gear and gear with unique appearances should not be restricted to raiding. Appearance is a very good example of Horizontal progression that should be supported by all available means of advancement: raiding, group content, solo play, questing and crafting.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
1) Ignore weight allowances or other game mechanics
2) Allow a warrior to look like a cleric or vice versa
I know weight allowances are less and less common in RPGs and MMORPGs since it's "not fun", but I still hate it when an MMO which otherwise has weight allowance is ignored for appearance items. I understadn the WHY. But IMHO it's just a failure of design if they can't make it work right.
The part about making your warrior look like a cleric is even more annoying. I know illusions should be tolerated somewhat in RPGs, since there're many spells/magic with that effect. But appearance slots aren't magical in nature and are permanent. It's completely anti-immersive.
To me it's just an excuse to have a "fashion simulator", as Sinist put it. I'm not against players altering their appearance. Everquest had dyes for changing the color. Sometimes I wore items longer than I should have because I liked their look. I sometiems salivated at how an item looked. But I respect the game mechanics and don't like things which feel "tacked on". Appearnce slots feel that way. They really don't belong and they're added anyway.
I'd be more in support of something which preserves the value of the appearance of high level items. So maybe you'd combine low level items with high level items to adjust their appearance and it'd be reliant on the original look with some limitations. Sort of like dyes. They do change hte look but with limitations. Something like that, but it changes the shape and texture.
All in all when a mmo or rpg starts to feel too loose and disconnected, it loses me. The world is sacred to me. I don't like it when random or otherwise incoherent things are added onto it. For example, the stupid mounts or models which're added to some MMORPGs just because players like them. For example, the Rudolph/Randolph mount in Vanguard. Hated that so much. It didn't belong but they kept it there because it was "fun". /vomit
Here:
http://vanguard.wikia.com/wiki/Randolph_the_Reindeer
At first it was harder. But they kept removed barriers until it was in your face easy and everywhere. They did finally limit its use in 2012, probably because F2P, but damage was done. That kind of s*** made me lost interest in Vanguard much faster than even the gameplay stunts they did. Too many MMO's add things just "because". It's "fun". Excuse me as I vomit again.
Everquest added a lot of that. Over the years, it got worse and worse. You step into POK and it's a circus of inanity. Almost every MMORPG does this. And it's the stupid cash shops pushing it. They get off saying it's not a gameplay bonus. What it's is simple, it's people who don't care about immersion and it's cash shops or otherwise game makers with $$$ in their eyes.
EDIT: And I don't want anybody telling me I should feel sorry for all the people who want to look like XYZ or have XYZ. It's a world, respect it! They're varied. Find one you like. Don't demand all to be the same.
I know I'm coming across inhospitably, but as a longtimer gamer, I realize one must draw a line in the sand. There're enough choices out there for us to do so. If we all could only play one MMO, I'd understand the concerns some bring up. But we're not stuck with one MMO. Some are more popular because they appeal to more people and some are less so. Neither is better than the other. People are different and MMO's are different too. If a MMO is unpopular, it's niche. It's not inferior or invalid, unless it desires to be popular.
IMO the only appearance slot system I could support, however begrudgingly, would be one that had no appearance only fluff type of items. Secondarily you should only be able to equip gear in the appearance slot your class can equip.
I'd rather not have it at all, but I'm not gonna cry into my pillow if they implement one. There really are bigger fish to fry.
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
In FFXI people only really wore the costume stuff or certain stand out gear in the citys, while bazzaring or goofing about in the world for w/e reason (we called it "town gear" for the obvious reasons). I just dont want to play another dressup/costume party game is all. Do it for events or if your looking to show off it the towns, but if its possible keep it limited so i dont have to see what i already have all over again.
That said, I played a Bard. Im sure youll remember how for some reason the developers had this misconception that Bards should dress up like court jesters. Basically medieval clowns. If thats not reason enough for such a feature I dont know what is. Then there were the giant monk weapons which thankfully I heard could be hidden completely. I dont think anyone really wants (or would miss) if they restricted it by allowable gear type and just simply not allow bathing suits and the like (if theyre even in Pantheon) to be glamoured. Most of the issues with appearance features like glamour are part of a bigger problem in MMO's today (cash shop greed, events which have no place in the world) many which have been or could be easily addressed by the developers themselves.
What's wrong with that? Looks like fun to me.
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