I really do like this idea as it will reward the veterans of the game. You will never run out of something to gain, you'll always have something to keep progressing. And I think its only fair that those who have put their time in a game be rewarded. A lot of people are going to disagree but I think a person whos been in the game world for 5 years SHOULD be stronger than the guy that's been there for only 1 year. Now this is considering everything else being equal.
In the video he does say progression will be very very slow and will continue to get slower and slower as you get higher and higher in your stats. This is ok as long as they dial it in to a reasonable amount of gain. Maybe to make it feel like you are still progressing it might be nice to have a .000 3rd decimal break down or view of your stat so you could still see your numbers moving up as you progressed.
The rate of progression and the scale of progression will determine whether this is a good thing or not.
On the one hand, endless progression provides a permanent carrot to the playerbase which is good, it helps players keep on playing even when they are lacking motivation (goals to play through the boredom).
On the other hand, this is a pvp game and an MMO. Any sort of powergap reduces the enjoyment of the playerbase which in turn reduces retention. MMOs rely on new blood to stay healthy, but if the game is set up so that all new players will be at a permanent disadvantage, the new blood wont bother with it.
Finally, I do disagree that a person who has been playing for 5 years should be better than the person who has been playing for 1 year. I think, in a PvP game, the person with the higher skill should be better. Rewarding people for simply spending time in game is pointless.
I'd prefer to have a combat / skill system which takes time to learn and master so that veterans have an advantage that way, but it is an advantage that isn't insurmountable: new players just have to learn the system themselves.
I've never grasped the idea of 'catching up' the older players. Why would anyone even think being equal with someone who have played several years if you made your character yesterday? Off to WoW with you, noob.
Well if you can't grasp the concept of why this is a good thing, there's no point in discussing it with you.
Be off with you.
You can always discuss, and i can see the benefits of catching up mechanisms, but i still value long term investment in game better than having everyone on equal ground.
Besides, we already have enough those casual games where everyone are winners and no one can fail.
But everyone isnt going to be a winner. This is a PvP game remember.
You fight, people will win and people will lose. Thats how PvP works.
And a real PvPer shouldnt need the advantage of thousands of skill points over his opponent. A real PvPer would still beat his opponent even if everyone was on equal ground.
That's the difference between mmorpg PvP and moba PvP. In mmo, part of the gameplay is improving your character's skills and gear, and getting an upper hand over your opponent in a battlefield. Even in real life, war never is a fair fight; one always is better equipped and trained than the other.
Some games are designed to put everyone on equal ground and have the best player to win, while in other games it's your character that is better than your opponent's character even tho your skills as a player still has an impact on the outcome of a fight.
I, for one, am not into mobas or fps's; competing with other players for being the best player in a server doesn't interest me in the slightest. But if a part of the gameplay is to develop my character to get advantage against other player, my interest change drastically. Add some reason to fight other characters other than 'have some fun and kill other players because i can' and i begin to even enjoy it.
That's one thing mmorpg developers haven't got right in this genre. All attempts to balance and homogenize classes and races to give players as fair fights as possible have only pushed this genre more and more towards mobas and fps games. We can see it even today; in most games you can't even attack other players until you are at max level and wear the same gear as the others to ensure balance in PvP, or you can't wear or use equipment acquired from PvE encounters or from crafting, and your racial skills don't work in PvP. In mmorpg with some kind of PvP feature everything you do in a game should aim for being a better and tougher opponent to your enemies, both NPCs and players, and you should also accept one side always has more fighters, better gear, and more skilled players behind them unlike in mobas where everything depends on your skill as a player.
I remember back in a day when i started playing WoW in 2005 when people constantly complained how it wasn't fair that raiders were so powerful in PvP, and they were not PvP'ers but PvE'ers and yet they could 'wtfpwn the real PvP'ers' on battlegrounds and wPvP. I thought, and still think, it was working as intended in mmorpg game. Only the reason to fight other players was still missing from a perfect game. When PvP gear was introduced a few months later, that's when things went wrong; you could now ignore a vital part of the mmorpg and focus on playing a moba (battlegrounds) inside an rpg. It's easy to see why they developed the game to that direction, but it devalued the rpg aspect of the game nonetheless.
Reminds me of the ESO champion system. They had to cap it because of complaints that newer players would never be able to catch up to high level players. They also had people who had lots of extra time just grinding out points to reach a high level quickly. Devs underestimate players who use Mountain Dew and Hot Pockets, playing for days without sleep or little sleep just so they can run around beating up the normal levelers. Some even take vacation time off from work.
Lets hope its nothing like the champion point system in ESO, that was fairly damaging for pvp.
So I listened to the whole video OP linked. (Btw. I would have preferred a text version.) Definately worth listening to the whole stuff.
But man, they really want to do things different in this game. There are many other things mentioned which I think are at least as risky as the "no cap" approach. I was just constantly on the jump to step in and say: No no, this will never work because....
I just hope they have something like a living netflix chaos monkey who just tries to misuse/exploit/sabotage their systems. Because honestly so far I can't believe all this will work unless I see it for real.
But I wish them all the best. I really hope they are successfull. I just can't see it happen, but who knows, maybe it will. Surprise me, please.
I think its funny that people are getting upset over the potential for a single stat point to go up by 1 over a month or two compared to another player once a certain threshold is hit. He said it could take weeks or it could take months to increase a single stat at that point. If another player of the same class and race, same equipment has 1 more vitality that me after he has been playing for two years longer, I am still going to kill him.
Also, if you believe the way they are designing their system, there is a good chance that the king of my realm might see the stat difference and give me a greater reward in the morning because of it. I look forward to the challenge.
Again, how many of you have played another MMO like DarkFall, Conan, Warhammer, WoW, and likely killed another player at one point that had a higher level or more stats than you? You don't know because you just jumped in the fray and went for it. That is exciting.
I played Warhamer Online where the game will scale your stats up to the bottom of a tier if you try jumping tiers but you didn't get more skills, and I would regularly kill players who belonged in that tier and had more skills than I did. Their gear also gave them stat boosts over me on top of the extra skills they had. You guys are looking at it from extreme standpoints. If the guy has 10% more speed than you, you will never catch him? I forgot this game suddenly lost the ability to root people, to snare people, or to slow people. Typically in RvR the first two or three things you do to another player is some form of hard or soft CC.
It's almost guaranteed that this system is going to be very close to the realm rank system from DAoC, you know that game considered the greatest PvP MMORPG of all time. Could a RR10 beat a RR2 pretty easily in that game? Of course. Did people care? Not really, it was something to strive for.
This thread is like 50% trolling, 25% EVE players who only understand how bad this would be if it was in EVE, and 25% of players who have never played (or maybe even heard about) a game where the developers didn't promise the players that everything would be 100% equal. Or maybe the last 25% are people who don't understand what the term 'soft cap' even means.
It's just insane that of all the things in this game people think this is the one that will make the game fail. The RR system was one of the best parts of DAoC to me and many others and people honestly believe that it can't work.
It has worked in the past. . . really well.
P.S. Does anyone understand what these EVE player's actually position is? Saying that slow progression beyond the soft cap will break a game, but completely accepting being able to literally buy the best of everything in EVE for actual money.
I don't think this will work tbh. Might have worked in EvE to an extent but this will cause people not to want to even bother with the game even if the stats go up a very very small amount.
Actually in EvE every skill can be trained up to level 5 which means there is a hard cap - hard to achieve but still present. Also in EvE you can specialise so as a newcomer you have a way to decrease the gap atleast a little bit.
No skill cap here however even if looks promising in the beginning it may easily turn into game killer eventually (gap between vets and newcomers too big to overcome).
If you ever came across a RR13 while you were RR 3 in DAOC you would have an appreciation how a unlimited power curves can be a not so great idea.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
For me power difference is a must ( and this coming from a casual player) I dont want the feel of arena or moba, if someone start gaming before me and spend more time he should be stronger this is excepted since again its RVR so noobs can contributes. How big is the gap is something need to be tested and I wish its small one.
You also must account for smaller realms or underplayed realms getting bigger realm bonuses by default to help even things out. It won't be anywhere near as bad as people are thinking.
And a real PvPer shouldnt need the advantage of thousands of skill points over his opponent. A real PvPer would still beat his opponent even if everyone was on equal ground.
Winning or losing has really nothing to do with being a real PvPer.
And a real PvPer shouldnt need the advantage of thousands of skill points over his opponent. A real PvPer would still beat his opponent even if everyone was on equal ground.
Winning or losing has really nothing to do with being a real PvPer.
For a real PvP'er Winning or losing is everything. But a win gained because of a level advantage, is utterly without meaning.
And a real PvPer shouldnt need the advantage of thousands of skill points over his opponent. A real PvPer would still beat his opponent even if everyone was on equal ground.
Winning or losing has really nothing to do with being a real PvPer.
For a real PvP'er Winning or losing is everything. But a win gained because of a level advantage, is utterly without meaning.
This isn't true. This could be the start of you trying new rotations or a new build. Something can ALWAYS be gained by PvP. No matter the outcome.
And a real PvPer shouldnt need the advantage of thousands of skill points over his opponent. A real PvPer would still beat his opponent even if everyone was on equal ground.
Winning or losing has really nothing to do with being a real PvPer.
For a real PvP'er Winning or losing is everything. But a win gained because of a level advantage, is utterly without meaning.
Correct, because "real PVPers" ...(hah, sorry, can't say that with a straight face) zerg to give their PVP meaning.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
And a real PvPer shouldnt need the advantage of thousands of skill points over his opponent. A real PvPer would still beat his opponent even if everyone was on equal ground.
Winning or losing has really nothing to do with being a real PvPer.
For a real PvP'er Winning or losing is everything. But a win gained because of a level advantage, is utterly without meaning.
Correct, because "real PVPers" ...(hah, sorry, can't say that with a straight face) zerg to give their PVP meaning.
1. No true Scotsman. 2. No generalization is worth a damn, including this one. 3. So after a few years we can click the mouse and every mob on the server will die at once? The underwear gnomes approve this plan.
Just on #3... they have already said it will take months to go up a single skill point, after years you might have gained an addition 5. It will be ok.
Comments
On the one hand, endless progression provides a permanent carrot to the playerbase which is good, it helps players keep on playing even when they are lacking motivation (goals to play through the boredom).
On the other hand, this is a pvp game and an MMO. Any sort of powergap reduces the enjoyment of the playerbase which in turn reduces retention. MMOs rely on new blood to stay healthy, but if the game is set up so that all new players will be at a permanent disadvantage, the new blood wont bother with it.
Finally, I do disagree that a person who has been playing for 5 years should be better than the person who has been playing for 1 year. I think, in a PvP game, the person with the higher skill should be better. Rewarding people for simply spending time in game is pointless.
I'd prefer to have a combat / skill system which takes time to learn and master so that veterans have an advantage that way, but it is an advantage that isn't insurmountable: new players just have to learn the system themselves.
Some games are designed to put everyone on equal ground and have the best player to win, while in other games it's your character that is better than your opponent's character even tho your skills as a player still has an impact on the outcome of a fight.
I, for one, am not into mobas or fps's; competing with other players for being the best player in a server doesn't interest me in the slightest. But if a part of the gameplay is to develop my character to get advantage against other player, my interest change drastically. Add some reason to fight other characters other than 'have some fun and kill other players because i can' and i begin to even enjoy it.
That's one thing mmorpg developers haven't got right in this genre. All attempts to balance and homogenize classes and races to give players as fair fights as possible have only pushed this genre more and more towards mobas and fps games. We can see it even today; in most games you can't even attack other players until you are at max level and wear the same gear as the others to ensure balance in PvP, or you can't wear or use equipment acquired from PvE encounters or from crafting, and your racial skills don't work in PvP. In mmorpg with some kind of PvP feature everything you do in a game should aim for being a better and tougher opponent to your enemies, both NPCs and players, and you should also accept one side always has more fighters, better gear, and more skilled players behind them unlike in mobas where everything depends on your skill as a player.
I remember back in a day when i started playing WoW in 2005 when people constantly complained how it wasn't fair that raiders were so powerful in PvP, and they were not PvP'ers but PvE'ers and yet they could 'wtfpwn the real PvP'ers' on battlegrounds and wPvP. I thought, and still think, it was working as intended in mmorpg game. Only the reason to fight other players was still missing from a perfect game. When PvP gear was introduced a few months later, that's when things went wrong; you could now ignore a vital part of the mmorpg and focus on playing a moba (battlegrounds) inside an rpg. It's easy to see why they developed the game to that direction, but it devalued the rpg aspect of the game nonetheless.
Definately worth listening to the whole stuff.
But man, they really want to do things different in this game. There are many other things mentioned which I think are at least as risky as the "no cap" approach. I was just constantly on the jump to step in and say: No no, this will never work because....
I just hope they have something like a living netflix chaos monkey who just tries to misuse/exploit/sabotage their systems. Because honestly so far I can't believe all this will work unless I see it for real.
But I wish them all the best. I really hope they are successfull. I just can't see it happen, but who knows, maybe it will. Surprise me, please.
Also, if you believe the way they are designing their system, there is a good chance that the king of my realm might see the stat difference and give me a greater reward in the morning because of it. I look forward to the challenge.
Again, how many of you have played another MMO like DarkFall, Conan, Warhammer, WoW, and likely killed another player at one point that had a higher level or more stats than you? You don't know because you just jumped in the fray and went for it. That is exciting.
I played Warhamer Online where the game will scale your stats up to the bottom of a tier if you try jumping tiers but you didn't get more skills, and I would regularly kill players who belonged in that tier and had more skills than I did. Their gear also gave them stat boosts over me on top of the extra skills they had. You guys are looking at it from extreme standpoints. If the guy has 10% more speed than you, you will never catch him? I forgot this game suddenly lost the ability to root people, to snare people, or to slow people. Typically in RvR the first two or three things you do to another player is some form of hard or soft CC.
This thread is like 50% trolling, 25% EVE players who only understand how bad this would be if it was in EVE, and 25% of players who have never played (or maybe even heard about) a game where the developers didn't promise the players that everything would be 100% equal. Or maybe the last 25% are people who don't understand what the term 'soft cap' even means.
It's just insane that of all the things in this game people think this is the one that will make the game fail. The RR system was one of the best parts of DAoC to me and many others and people honestly believe that it can't work.
It has worked in the past. . . really well.
P.S. Does anyone understand what these EVE player's actually position is? Saying that slow progression beyond the soft cap will break a game, but completely accepting being able to literally buy the best of everything in EVE for actual money.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But a win gained because of a level advantage, is utterly without meaning.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon