AA Points

Amathe · February 2016

I really enjoyed there being Alternative Advancement ("AA") points in EQ. It allowed me to further customize my character. Also, at times when I was really enjoying my current level and I wanted to keep working on projects in a particular zone without out-leveling them (or my friends), it gave me a place to divert my experience.

Any word on AA points, and what are people's thoughts on them?

Rattenmann · February 2016

I love AA from EQ.

The point about enjoying content without outleveling it is HUGE for me. Being able to stay in an area i like, getting Power without leveling, then pushing the next one easier.

Dullahan · February 2016

I love the concept of AAs. I liked most of EQs AAs, but some I felt were pretty horrible. I'm not a fan of anything that gives a player more utility than they should have. I also don't really care for a system where you don't have to make choices. My perfect idea of AAs would be something of a specialization system with some shared AAs, and no super long cool down power spells/abilities.

Vorthanion · February 2016

What surprises me the most is that most games after EQ didn't bother implement a similar AA system. It's a great system for alleviating the dreaded "nothing to do" at end game syndrome for both hardcore and casual players. I thought it rather strange and disappointing that Brad didn't even add it to Vanguard.

Benjola · February 2016

I enjoyed EQ AA system but it felt too grindy at times because there were too many of them especially if you played few alts to boot.
Or, I would keep all AA abilities but would eliminate the ranks and make them all a single rank.
Also, adding exp mods to particular zones didn't help the feeling of a grind at all.
Plane of Fire had best bang for AA buck for a loooong time, I mean literaly 10 expansions further so of course everyone grinded PoF all the time.

So, I approve of AA type of a deal for Pantheon but it has to be made better then EQ.

Amsai · February 2016

Just basically gonna say ditto to what Dullahan said.

Only thing Id add is maybe make them challenging like an epic quest. Not something you can just automatically do at max level.

Nightbringe1 · February 2016

I loved AA in EQ, it provided a means of advancement outside of leveling.

I would love to see a similar system eventually implemented in Pantheon, just not at launch.

Dullahan · February 2016

Amsai said:

Just basically gonna say ditto to what Dullahan said.

Only thing Id add is maybe make them challenging like an epic quest. Not something you can just automatically do at max level.

Ya, personally I don't think AAs should be done through a UI. I think there should be a process. Whether you find rare consumable books that you read, receive them as a quest reward, or find an npc that teaches you certain things for coin, there should be some in game interaction beyond just generic window that magically accumulates points. That was just another example of a generic system thrown in by SOE with no thought to immersion.

Sinist · February 2016

Vorthanion said:

What surprises me the most is that most games after EQ didn't bother implement a similar AA system. It's a great system for alleviating the dreaded "nothing to do" at end game syndrome for both hardcore and casual players. I thought it rather strange and disappointing that Brad didn't even add it to Vanguard.

AAs were a mixed bag for a lot of people due to SoEs poor implementation of them around SoL and the massive division they created between players. People just didn't seem to understand that just because they were level 65, they were nowhere near the same as someone who was 65 with numerous specific AAs.

I didn't mind them, but at times it was hard to organize around them as it became a major min/max game in play. There were level requirements, then a long list of AA requirements for many guilds. Not to mention, the ridiculous mitigation issues that they created for class balance.

Anyway, while many liked them, they were a bit controversial and with game companies striving to dumb everything down, AAs really just didn't fit into that vision.

Sinist · February 2016

Nightbringe1 said:

I loved AA in EQ, it provided a means of advancement outside of leveling.

I would love to see a similar system eventually implemented in Pantheon, just not at launch.

Why not at launch?

I think it is best to implement such systems parallel to the main systems as it allows for a more seamless progression of game systems. When you add it in as an entirely new system later, there is a lot of problems it produces (SoL had numerous issues with AAs when they were released).

Now if they added them from the start, as a part of play and progression not only does it allow them to extend the initial levels, but it also allows them to account for them from the ground up.

Raidan_EQ · February 2016

What Dullahan said above - I think AAs can be made more meaningful than solely an exp grind like EQ (I'd want some EXP grind though)

And, I enjoyed being able to progress in EQ at end-game through AAs. It provided a variety of options at max level where I felt I could still meaningfully advance my character and reduced boredom.

Slightly off-topic, but I enjoyed a proposal that Sypderoptik shared about the Progeny system and AAs on the official forums.

Sypderoptik said: "As somebody who doesn't like to play alts and going back through the same low level content multiple times, I hope that if I choose to stick to a character and not do the progeny mechanic that I'm not at a disadvantage. For example, if I were to stick with a character without "retiring" them, the time I would have spent going back through the content, if I had spent that time on AAs at higher level, it would it equalize (AA bonuses gained vs progeny bonuses gained). I'd think AA would be accumulated faster through higher level mob killing than coming back up through the lower levels. This is assuming both the AA system and the progeny system co-exist at the same time to allow for this equalized option. This then gives two different playstyles an option, those who enjoy going back to old content (Progeny) and those who don't (more of an AA-type route) for bonuses. Could be a win for everybody in that regard."

And to expand on his thoughts to help equalize the gains perhaps the progeny system would already select an AA line and not be AAs + the progeny bonus to provide an additional bonus.

Amsai · February 2016

I mostly agree with that idea Raidan. Unless it severly gimps my character. I would only use the progeny system for 1 possible reason. I might retirea char to give me a boost for Bard if no Bard at launch. Maybe. Because Im kind of a 1 character guy. Dont care for Alts except just as mules or to experiment with at launch to help me commit to a class.

Raidan_EQ · February 2016

@Amsai

Agreed - I wouldn't want to use the progeny system either, which is why I liked Spyderoptik's idea of it being another "choice" for advancement rather than a permanent bonus to a character that couldn't be obtained otherwise.

Dagon13 · February 2016

One of my favorite things to do in EQ2 was wander the game world hunting named monsters. Since killing them provided a hefty amount of AA experience it was a rewarding way to progress while exploring the world and the monsters didn't even have to drop BiS raid gear. It was a blast and lead to a lot of great PVP experiences.

Nightbringe1 · February 2016

Sinist said:

Nightbringe1 said:

I loved AA in EQ, it provided a means of advancement outside of leveling.

I would love to see a similar system eventually implemented in Pantheon, just not at launch.

Why not at launch?

I think it is best to implement such systems parallel to the main systems as it allows for a more seamless progression of game systems. When you add it in as an entirely new system later, there is a lot of problems it produces (SoL had numerous issues with AAs when they were released).

Now if they added them from the start, as a part of play and progression not only does it allow them to extend the initial levels, but it also allows them to account for them from the ground up.

If AA's are to implemented, the planning should certainly be done for the system.

I don't support the idea at launch as they system makes for good expansions without increasing the level cap.

Sinist · February 2016

Nightbringe1 said:

Sinist said:

Nightbringe1 said:

I loved AA in EQ, it provided a means of advancement outside of leveling.

I would love to see a similar system eventually implemented in Pantheon, just not at launch.

Why not at launch?

I think it is best to implement such systems parallel to the main systems as it allows for a more seamless progression of game systems. When you add it in as an entirely new system later, there is a lot of problems it produces (SoL had numerous issues with AAs when they were released).

Now if they added them from the start, as a part of play and progression not only does it allow them to extend the initial levels, but it also allows them to account for them from the ground up.

If AA's are to implemented, the planning should certainly be done for the system.

I don't support the idea at launch as they system makes for good expansions without increasing the level cap.

It is all relative. You can add "more" AAs in an expansion, along with levels. AA's at launch if implemented properly can pretty much double the length of your initial content. You could cleverly design the levels combined with the AAs to be a requirement to progress by making content too difficulty on average for those who did not do the expected progression they designed (ie levels + certain AAs).

Thunder073 · February 2016

AA's were the mechanic I loved most about EQ. To this day I will NOT play an mmo unless it has max level vertical character progression like an AA system implemented. As someone who hates just doing gear grinds I welcomed the change to grind exp continuously via the AA system. I agree with both Dullahan that AA's should not have long ridiculous (hour+) cool downs and I agree with Raiden_EQ that you shouldn't feel gimped if you play numerous alts, thus ignoring progression with one "main" character.

A simple solution would be to mimic what Diablo 3 did with its prestige system. For those unfamiliar with it, what it did was allow you to gain max level exp (basically AA's at level cap) and allocate points across ALL your characters. So if your Wizard gained 25 AA's over the past few weeks and you also recently just got your Monk to max level, you can now use 25 points for AA's on your Monk as well. Each class has their own AA's to select from but this reduces the grind if some are concerned with that.

I personally LOVE!!!! the exp grinds on mobs. I could sit in a camp all day and grind mobs. However if you give nothing to advance once I'm max level I'll quit you're game for good in less than an hour.

Amathe · February 2016

Just one point. AAs serve two purposes.

One is as a reward for something. In EQ it was for xp. If that was all there was to it, you could come up with all sorts of things a player might need to do to earn the reward. It need not be xp, or merely xp.

The second is as an alternative use for xp. This the first "A" in AA. What that allowed you to do is to stay at a certain level, either because you liked that level, or had unfinished business there, or because that's the level where your buddies were. Siphoning off your xp to AA let you stay put for a while level wise.

If you take away the xp siphoning (for lack of a better phrase), then you eliminate a good chunk of what made AA worthwhile, imo.

GladDog · February 2016

Thunder073 said:

AA's were the mechanic I loved most about EQ. To this day I will NOT play an mmo unless it has max level vertical character progression like an AA system implemented. As someone who hates just doing gear grinds I welcomed the change to grind exp continuously via the AA system. I agree with both Dullahan that AA's should not have long ridiculous (hour+) cool downs and I agree with Raiden_EQ that you shouldn't feel gimped if you play numerous alts, thus ignoring progression with one "main" character.

A simple solution would be to mimic what Diablo 3 did with its prestige system. For those unfamiliar with it, what it did was allow you to gain max level exp (basically AA's at level cap) and allocate points across ALL your characters. So if your Wizard gained 25 AA's over the past few weeks and you also recently just got your Monk to max level, you can now use 25 points for AA's on your Monk as well. Each class has their own AA's to select from but this reduces the grind if some are concerned with that.

I personally LOVE!!!! the exp grinds on mobs. I could sit in a camp all day and grind mobs. However if you give nothing to advance once I'm max level I'll quit you're game for good in less than an hour.

ESO does the same with their Champion points. Its a unique system, as any character that is created has access to all of the champion points, although only characters at the level cap can generate points.

kjempff · February 2016

AA is by far the most important feature added to EQ. Without AA there would be no EQ today, I boldly claim, adding that luclin, pop, would never have been that huge a success without AA.
It is a shame other mmorpgs never implemented similar systems, and the WoW era mmo(-rp)g could have been so much better with a "ever" leveling system like AA's. I always felt like I could not really invest in WoW and later games because they were only about rushing to max and gearing up (single sided progression).

Uhm does this have anything to do with Pantheon ?

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