Seamless Dungeon VS seamless world .

iixviiiix · February 2016

Versus

Image: http://www.win7dwnld.com/screenshot/3D-Dungeon-Screensaver.jpg

I wonder which one is better for RPG . Seamless world or a dark and seamless dungeons ?
Personally i prefer seamless dungeon for RPG and adventure . Dark place , full of dangerous like monster and trap that you can't avoid without special skill (thief) and heart throbbing moments when people screaming "IT A TRAP"
And MOST IMPORTANTLY i feel like seamless dungeon are cheaper compare to seamless world

What about you ?

simsalabim77 · February 2016

I prefer the world to be seamless, but I like dungeons to be instanced.

nariusseldon · February 2016

depends on the game. instanced dungeons are more convenient for hack-n-slash games. Worlds can be fun for single player games like Fallout 4, as long as I don't have to backtrack and walk from point A to B again and again.

laserit · February 2016

ESO has got both, I like having the variety. Openworld dungeon and instanced dungeon.

Imagine if ESO had a seamless world.

Kiyoris · February 2016

Good PVE MMO have open world, secluded open world areas / dungeons and instanced dungeons.

EQ has:
-open world (ok they were technically zoned, but it's basically open world)
-open world dungeons or secluded areas (city of mist, grieg's end, etc)
-instanced dungeons (accursed nest, thundercrest, etc)

All good PVE MMO have those 3 things.

EQ has it
WoW has it
Vanguard has it
Rift has it
FFXIV has it

AAAMEOW · February 2016

i prefer dark dungeon. like that of skyrim. don't work so well in mmorpg. since a supposely dark dungeon without people become a tourist attraction with so many people moving in and out.

Amaranthar · February 2016

Both, without instancing. Separate servers for dungeons are ok.
I like my world to be one with other players. I don't want instancing. I want a huge world.

Archlyte · February 2016

Yeah I gotta go with both unless the instancing starts to get out of hand. Instancing is fine to actually isolate players in their adventures, but in a lot of games it simply gets used to void the world. I guess DDO is a good example of both: the dungeons are a dangerous world of their own, yet all there is to do is dungeons so the game lacks a persistent space where history can occur.

iixviiiix · February 2016

AAAMEOW said:

i prefer dark dungeon. like that of skyrim. don't work so well in mmorpg. since a supposely dark dungeon without people become a tourist attraction with so many people moving in and out.

The dungeon design mostly narrow and deep.The deeper the dungeon , the darker and deadlier .
while seamless world concept is wide and flat.

Maybe i should change the tittle to [Dungeon crawl vs seamless world ]
I wasn't mean "dungeon" = "instance" .

Wizardry · February 2016

Dungeons are EASIER zones to make,easier yet if instanced.
What's better?Well devs SHOULD be trying to recreate a living breathing world,you don't accomplish that with instances.As well a role playing player would not be spending his entire time inside a dungeon and why the concept that the baddest Bosses are living in some Dungeon anyhow?Furthermore it is comical these dungeons always have some form of light....hmm must be fireflies lol.

linadragon · February 2016

I think open world with "live" instancing works a bit better. Certain things like dungeons do have their place being instanced so you aren't sitting around waiting for rez times. That said these days we have the technologies in place that there is no reason that these dungeons have to feel like they are disconnected from a large seamless world. Games where live instancing happens are out there already and it puzzles me why we rely on full on instancing with a load screen at this point.

World of Warcraft's live phasing is a prime example of what can be done and there is no reason something like it cannot be applied to dungeon groups...

linadragon · February 2016

iixviiiix said:

AAAMEOW said:

i prefer dark dungeon. like that of skyrim. don't work so well in mmorpg. since a supposely dark dungeon without people become a tourist attraction with so many people moving in and out.

The dungeon design mostly narrow and deep.The deeper the dungeon , the darker and deadlier .
while seamless world concept is wide and flat.

Maybe i should change the tittle to [Dungeon crawl vs seamless world ]
I wasn't mean "dungeon" = "instance" .

So if you get into dungeon crawler they don't lend themselves entirely well to just deep dark dungeons. There have seldom been games that take place entirely in a singular dungeon where you just go deeper and deeper and deeper. It also doesn't lend itself well to mmorpg design and is best left to straight up ARPG like things. Games like diablo while "dungeon crawlers" to a degree also have areas that are out and about on normal land and it's not just dungeon after dungeon after dungeon.

cameltosis · February 2016

I personally prefer seamless open worlds.

You can do everything in an open world that you can in a dungeon, but the reverse isn't necessarily true.

As for the role-playing side of things, again, I prefer open worlds - I enjoy the sense of scale you can get from open worlds, I like the feeling that I'm out in a big world taking part in big events. I want to take part in battles, not fights. Dungeons serve their purposes but for me, I only really like dungeons when they are "lairs", i.e. I'm going to a dungeon to hunt down a specific boss or group. Simply dungeon crawling isn't my thing.

I also prefer my RPGs to be bright and colourful wherever possible. Dungeons, by their nature, tend to be dark, damp and depressing. Good roleplaying places for evil to hide out but doesn't really appeal to me. I never reach the end of a dungeon and think "that was a good place to explore" or "wow, I'd like to re-do that". I only really get enjoyment out of dungeons if they contain interesting scripted events or bosses.

iixviiiix · February 2016

Wizardry said:

Dungeons are EASIER zones to make,easier yet if instanced.
What's better?Well devs SHOULD be trying to recreate a living breathing world,you don't accomplish that with instances.As well a role playing player would not be spending his entire time inside a dungeon and why the concept that the baddest Bosses are living in some Dungeon anyhow?Furthermore it is comical these dungeons always have some form of light....hmm must be fireflies lol.

I think the concept "the baddest bosses are living in some dungeon" cause the dungeon (or what ever before it turned to dungeon) are build upon the resources like rare metals mine or special place that carry or gather more power resources like mana or what ever . Basically they are perfect place for the evil be born .

As you said , the dungeon are easier to make compare to world
yet it offer more tricks for the maker (defender) to kill the players (invaders) , some trap you can't avoid or room of monster you can't get pass without to kill them all .

I mean , wasn't it too hard for the maker to create good "seamless world" . So .... why don't try to make just dungeons ?

deniter · February 2016

I prefer to have them both in PvE mmorpg. Basically how it was in WoW from classic to early WotLK before dungeon finders.

I'd make dungeons much more deep and complex, however, and add features like traps, secret doors, illumination, etc.

Lazzaro · February 2016

Easy, seamless open world. I hate instancing, because it feels like it takes me out of the game world. This goes with PvP too. UO, SWG and even Vanguard did this well, those felt like an MMORPG.

Flyte27 · February 2016

Wouldn't a lot of it come down to game design.

One of the issues with seamless world is that everyone thinks they should easily have access to everything in the game without putting in much effort.

I believe for a seamless game to work it has to be risky to go into to dungeons. That means dungeons won't be flooded by people all the time. It also adds to the immersion that the dungeons are really dangerous places to go.

One of the tricky parts of creating dungeons has always been requiring certain roles to be successful. The thief class is the perfect example. No game has ever made a dungeon that requires you to bring a thief except for maybe DDO that I can think of. In Everquest dungeons had fake walls/floors and locked doors, but you could generally bypass them without bringing a rogue. This made the rogue class somewhat useless for things other than pulling peoples corpses out of dungeons when they died.

To expand upon the idea of hidden doors/false walls I there have been other things implemented in older games like icy/slippery bridges, areas that you can't get to without finding a certain item(think Legend of Zelda and Final Fantasy). An example would be in Legend of Zelda finding a raft to cross a river or finding an wall in a dungeon that can only be opened with bombs. In Final Fantasy you had oceans you couldn't traverse without getting access to a ship, sky cities that couldn't be accessed without an air ship, certain areas that couldn't be accessed without going through a dangerous dungeon, and more (this was true for EQ to in some places). There also might be something like needing a water breathing spell or helmet that lets you breath underwater so you can go explore underwater cities. Those are just a few ideas, but obviously things that have been done before.

There are other aspects that would go into having a seamless world work. I think you might need to have more dynamic content and you would need to remove the GPS. Seamless worlds are about sharing, working together with, and also competing against other people. I said this before, but removal of GPS and helpers is good in many ways. It brings the community together and allows them to cooperate and solve problems for themselves. I don't know about other people, but it's not just the helpers making games more simple that annoys me. It's also that they clutter everything and make the interface headache inducing at times. I'd rather just have a plain and simple interface. The world and interacting with it is what should be complex IMO.

Vermillion_Raventhal · February 2016

Flyte27 said:

Wouldn't a lot of it come down to game design.

One of the issues with seamless world is that everyone thinks they should easily have access to everything in the game without putting in much effort.

I believe for a seamless game to work it has to be risky to go into to dungeons. That means dungeons won't be flooded by people all the time. It also adds to the immersion that the dungeons are really dangerous places to go.

One of the tricky parts of creating dungeons has always been requiring certain roles to be successful. The thief class is the perfect example. No game has ever made a dungeon that requires you to bring a thief except for maybe DDO that I can think of. In Everquest dungeons had fake walls/floors and locked doors, but you could generally bypass them without bringing a rogue. This made the rogue class somewhat useless for things other than pulling peoples corpses out of dungeons when they died.

To expand upon the idea of hidden doors/false walls I there have been other things implemented in older games like icy/slippery bridges, areas that you can't get to without finding a certain item(think Legend of Zelda and Final Fantasy). An example would be in Legend of Zelda finding a raft to cross a river or finding an wall in a dungeon that can only be opened with bombs. In Final Fantasy you had oceans you couldn't traverse without getting access to a ship, sky cities that couldn't be accessed without an air ship, certain areas that couldn't be accessed without going through a dangerous dungeon, and more (this was true for EQ to in some places). There also might be something like needing a water breathing spell or helmet that lets you breath underwater so you can go explore underwater cities. Those are just a few ideas, but obviously things that have been done before.

There are other aspects that would go into having a seamless world work. I think you might need to have more dynamic content and you would need to remove the GPS. Seamless worlds are about sharing, working together with, and also competing against other people. I said this before, but removal of GPS and helpers is good in many ways. It brings the community together and allows them to cooperate and solve problems for themselves. I don't know about other people, but it's not just the helpers making games more simple that annoys me. It's also that they clutter everything and make the interface headache inducing at times. I'd rather just have a plain and simple interface. The world and interacting with it is what should be complex IMO.

The action adventure game I designed in my head had multiple abilities for each class to counter traps and obstacles in dungeons. I think that's how it should be. Rogues function as assasin creeds opening locks and climbing ledges. Mage dealing with arcane issues and priest dealing with ritual and religious issues. Warriors dealing with strength based problems.

I prefer both. But open world generally sours some people becaue the journeys are wasted by developers. In stories you usually have things that take place during journeys. Level restrictions many time interfere with doing things on the road.

Even in closed worlds the journey is what developers never do to make weak open world games MMO like games. Just as well script the journey to so and so along with linear quest. Its much better than filler task. How about instanced chase or escape sequences. Getting ambushed on the road. Helping locals get freed from a evil mayor. Visiting an inn and finding people watching you leading to a fight. I guess it's too much to ask for.

iixviiiix · February 2016

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Flyte27 said:

Wouldn't a lot of it come down to game design.
.....
.....
.....

The action adventure game I designed in my head had multiple abilities for each class to counter traps and obstacles in dungeons. I think that's how it should be. Rogues function as assasin creeds opening locks and climbing ledges. Mage dealing with arcane issues and priest dealing with ritual and religious issues. Warriors dealing with strength based problems.

I prefer both. But open world generally sours some people becaue the journeys are wasted by developers. In stories you usually have things that take place during journeys. Level restrictions many time interfere with doing things on the road.

Even in closed worlds the journey is what developers never do to make weak open world games MMO like games. Just as well script the journey to so and so along with linear quest. Its much better than filler task. How about instanced chase or escape sequences. Getting ambushed on the road. Helping locals get freed from a evil mayor. Visiting an inn and finding people watching you leading to a fight. I guess it's too much to ask for.

Pretty much impossible if you make it in open world without the lead of quests . You can avoid the events easily in open world , what's why it harder to get open world adventure work .

While you can have both wide world and dungeons, i don't think it's possible with the current price of MMORPG . If chose between half finished open wide world and good design dungeons , i rather make the world simple and focus on dungeons .

Flyte27 · February 2016

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Flyte27 said:

Wouldn't a lot of it come down to game design.

One of the issues with seamless world is that everyone thinks they should easily have access to everything in the game without putting in much effort.

I believe for a seamless game to work it has to be risky to go into to dungeons. That means dungeons won't be flooded by people all the time. It also adds to the immersion that the dungeons are really dangerous places to go.

One of the tricky parts of creating dungeons has always been requiring certain roles to be successful. The thief class is the perfect example. No game has ever made a dungeon that requires you to bring a thief except for maybe DDO that I can think of. In Everquest dungeons had fake walls/floors and locked doors, but you could generally bypass them without bringing a rogue. This made the rogue class somewhat useless for things other than pulling peoples corpses out of dungeons when they died.

To expand upon the idea of hidden doors/false walls I there have been other things implemented in older games like icy/slippery bridges, areas that you can't get to without finding a certain item(think Legend of Zelda and Final Fantasy). An example would be in Legend of Zelda finding a raft to cross a river or finding an wall in a dungeon that can only be opened with bombs. In Final Fantasy you had oceans you couldn't traverse without getting access to a ship, sky cities that couldn't be accessed without an air ship, certain areas that couldn't be accessed without going through a dangerous dungeon, and more (this was true for EQ to in some places). There also might be something like needing a water breathing spell or helmet that lets you breath underwater so you can go explore underwater cities. Those are just a few ideas, but obviously things that have been done before.

There are other aspects that would go into having a seamless world work. I think you might need to have more dynamic content and you would need to remove the GPS. Seamless worlds are about sharing, working together with, and also competing against other people. I said this before, but removal of GPS and helpers is good in many ways. It brings the community together and allows them to cooperate and solve problems for themselves. I don't know about other people, but it's not just the helpers making games more simple that annoys me. It's also that they clutter everything and make the interface headache inducing at times. I'd rather just have a plain and simple interface. The world and interacting with it is what should be complex IMO.

The action adventure game I designed in my head had multiple abilities for each class to counter traps and obstacles in dungeons. I think that's how it should be. Rogues function as assasin creeds opening locks and climbing ledges. Mage dealing with arcane issues and priest dealing with ritual and religious issues. Warriors dealing with strength based problems.

I prefer both. But open world generally sours some people becaue the journeys are wasted by developers. In stories you usually have things that take place during journeys. Level restrictions many time interfere with doing things on the road.

Even in closed worlds the journey is what developers never do to make weak open world games MMO like games. Just as well script the journey to so and so along with linear quest. Its much better than filler task. How about instanced chase or escape sequences. Getting ambushed on the road. Helping locals get freed from a evil mayor. Visiting an inn and finding people watching you leading to a fight. I guess it's too much to ask for.

I find exploration is part of an adventure. Finding you way to a dangerous dungeon should be just as tricky as the dungeon itself IMO. All you have to do is setup a path that is not easy to follow that leads to areas which are difficult to traverse and filled with dangerous creatures. There are likely areas you can go though through that are a safer path, but you don't know what those ways are until you start experimenting.

Vermillion_Raventhal · February 2016

iixviiiix said:

Vermillion_Raventhal said:

Flyte27 said:

Wouldn't a lot of it come down to game design.
.....
.....
.....

The action adventure game I designed in my head had multiple abilities for each class to counter traps and obstacles in dungeons. I think that's how it should be. Rogues function as assasin creeds opening locks and climbing ledges. Mage dealing with arcane issues and priest dealing with ritual and religious issues. Warriors dealing with strength based problems.

I prefer both. But open world generally sours some people becaue the journeys are wasted by developers. In stories you usually have things that take place during journeys. Level restrictions many time interfere with doing things on the road.

Even in closed worlds the journey is what developers never do to make weak open world games MMO like games. Just as well script the journey to so and so along with linear quest. Its much better than filler task. How about instanced chase or escape sequences. Getting ambushed on the road. Helping locals get freed from a evil mayor. Visiting an inn and finding people watching you leading to a fight. I guess it's too much to ask for.

Pretty much impossible if you make it in open world without the lead of quests . You can avoid the events easily in open world , what's why it harder to get open world adventure work .

While you can have both wide world and dungeons, i don't think it's possible with the current price of MMORPG . If chose between half finished open wide world and good design dungeons , i rather make the world simple and focus on dungeons .

That's why it should be challenging.

But If you're going the instanced route why not just instance the journey as well?

SEANMCAD · February 2016

iixviiiix said:

Versus

I wonder which one is better for RPG . Seamless world or a dark dungeons ?
Personally i prefer dungeon for RPG and adventure . Dark place , full of dangerous like monster and trap that you can't avoid without special skill (thief) and heart throbbing moments when people screaming "IT A TRAP"
And MOST IMPORTANTLY i feel like dungeon are cheaper compare to seamless world

What about you ?

dont the vast majority of all RPGs have both?

I am not following no dungeons vs dungeons? what?

Quirhid · February 2016

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

I like dungeons which are part of the world, like UO, AC1, etc... but instances have their use.
I think the main parts of the dungeons should be open world and only boss chambers should be instanced to ensure challenging fights and stop zerging but also griefing.

Shouldn't the whole dungeon be challenging? And if so, I think there shouldn't be any free rides to the boss chamber when the group ahead of you has cleared all the mobs.

Not to mention when you find people spawn campinng in the dungeon which is supposed to be all dark and scary it really kills the immersion.

Instanced all the way.

Flyte27 · February 2016

Quirhid said:

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

I like dungeons which are part of the world, like UO, AC1, etc... but instances have their use.
I think the main parts of the dungeons should be open world and only boss chambers should be instanced to ensure challenging fights and stop zerging but also griefing.

Shouldn't the whole dungeon be challenging? And if so, I think there shouldn't be any free rides to the boss chamber when the group ahead of you has cleared all the mobs.

Not to mention when you find people spawn campinng in the dungeon which is supposed to be all dark and scary it really kills the immersion.

Instanced all the way.

Perhaps this could be solved with some kind of dynamic content without the need for instancing. Perhaps boss mobs would relocate or different mobs would spawn in their place.

Nayr752 · February 2016

I like the worlds to be seamless and dungeons without instancing, but I'm not against instancing so much these days. Ive gotten use instances in MMORPG's.

Quirhid · February 2016

Flyte27 said:

Quirhid said:

Jean-Luc_Picard said:

I like dungeons which are part of the world, like UO, AC1, etc... but instances have their use.
I think the main parts of the dungeons should be open world and only boss chambers should be instanced to ensure challenging fights and stop zerging but also griefing.

Shouldn't the whole dungeon be challenging? And if so, I think there shouldn't be any free rides to the boss chamber when the group ahead of you has cleared all the mobs.

Not to mention when you find people spawn campinng in the dungeon which is supposed to be all dark and scary it really kills the immersion.

Instanced all the way.

Perhaps this could be solved with some kind of dynamic content without the need for instancing. Perhaps boss mobs would relocate or different mobs would spawn in their place.

Why? Instances fix all those problems.

Howdy, Stranger!

Seamless Dungeon VS seamless world .

Comments

Howdy, Stranger!

Quick Links

Seamless Dungeon VS seamless world .

Comments