At the end of the day Mark will implement his vision of CC and we will have to see if its something that meshes well with the overall combat expereience.
And I'll have to decide if its a game I'll be playing.
He might even surprise us all and do something very different with the same effect to stop zerges and that is more fun, anything is possible.
In any case will it be interesting to see how it all turn out.
Solid CC was a hallmark of DAOC combat, a single 8 man should be able to defeat a small zerg, if this title skips this mechanic then I'll call it fail right now.
They need to decide if they are catering to DAOC vets or Warhammer fans, two very different audiences IMO.
Disagree. You are part of a very small hardcore crowd that played Daoc. 99% of the population of players did not run 8 man groups. You 8 man group people were loathed by most as elitist non-team players. Most did not care about the war at hand, only themselves. Many refused to even communicate with the leaders on the field. And I disagree, 8 people should not be able to defeat an army. You few who did it may have had fun, but 8 man groups were bad for Daoc.
Bingo. I had a lot of fun chasing down the elitist 8 mans all the time. Once they were gone we were back to the actual war at hand.
Solid CC was a hallmark of DAOC combat, a single 8 man should be able to defeat a small zerg, if this title skips this mechanic then I'll call it fail right now.
They need to decide if they are catering to DAOC vets or Warhammer fans, two very different audiences IMO.
Disagree. You are part of a very small hardcore crowd that played Daoc. 99% of the population of players did not run 8 man groups. You 8 man group people were loathed by most as elitist non-team players. Most did not care about the war at hand, only themselves. Many refused to even communicate with the leaders on the field. And I disagree, 8 people should not be able to defeat an army. You few who did it may have had fun, but 8 man groups were bad for Daoc.
I actually played where the real war was, Mordred, and beating 8 mans was an accomplishment
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Find it kind of strange that people complain about crowd control and to be honest @Loke666, DAoCs crowd control system is what made the PvP great and challenging. What seems unfair or unbalanced is what actually made the first MMOs and especially DAoC great. Crowd control for example: sometimes it lead to epic moments, be it epic for you or your opponent. Point is, you experienced epic moments in PvP/RvR and not just the casual balanced and evened out zergfests that are called great PvP in todays MMOs.
By the way. DAoC offered several counters when it comes to crowd control effects. Accessible via realm abilities, player abilities, master level abilities and champion abilities - be it passive or active abilities.
The gret challenge - or let's call it art of pvp - was to make use of all the offered abilities in the best way.
And I still think it was over the top but taste differs.
In the beginning, yes. Later on Mythic implemented several counters to crowd control effects. But you're of course right. Taste differs.
It was far too late for a large number of players as well. ToA lead to the mass exodus and the fixes to the ridiculous CC in early DAoC came way too late.
Hard CC can be a real tactical tool, but it also needs to come with a heavy price for using it. Long cooldowns, massive resource hog, some type of negative effect on the caster are some examples of ways that hard CC can be made more meaningful. There also needs to be multiple counters which are also somewhat restricted in use.
When you get to a point where you can make plays to have enemies use their counterplay to line up for hard CC, it becomes far more strategic in use. Class knowledge of your enemies becomes far more important as well. That's where the game becomes more fun for more folks.
Having not played DAoC, can someone explain the differences between hard and soft CC? Is it just length of CC, or is it relating to inability to escape from the CC?
As for what I feel should be in CU, it all comes down to what the devs want to achieve. If they want long term success then a heavy CC based game wont cut it. Any time you take control away from a player and then that player dies, the player feels frustrated. Its not fun for the player and the more negativity a player feels, the more likely they are to quit.
There are plenty of other ways to keep the combat varied, tactical and skill-based without pissing off players. WAR had short CC, but I saw and was a part of many small groups / raids that could take on the zerg and win. Rather than using CC or overpowered skills, the skill came from from distributing damage (tanks ftw) and clever use of morale abilities, using player collisions to protect squishies. The more skillful players still came out on top, but both sides always felt in control and had fun.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
DAoC CC was a ton of fun. My second 60 I played an Albion Sorcerer and if you think CC was just spamming AOE mezz, then you have no idea how the game was played. CC was definitely part of it and the bad players had no way of countering it. If you paid attention to abilities, specifically realm abilities, there was a break available for like 5 points, not hard to get.
The take away being, if you didn't know how to deal with CC you were a bad DAoC player.
They haven't said anything definitive on CC yet. It's still under discussion internally. Many classes have soft CC and I personally agree that soft CC is the way to go. I think, philosophically, they have said that they do not want lots of hard CC because it removes a person's ability to play their character. I agree with them. We don't need stuns, we have roots. We don't need knock-downs, we have knock-backs and slows. I think the game can work just fine without hard CC and honestly don't see any real advantage that hard CC brings to the game that outweighs the reasons for not having it.
Hard CC's in Daoc allowed smaller more organized and more skilled players the ability to lock down and take out overwhelming numbers. Was hard cc a pain in the butt on the receiving end, Yeap, But it was the great equalizer imo.. Something other RvR similar games have been missing.. No way to counter the zerg of the mindless. Hopefully there are hard cc's very similar to Daoc. One of the things new rvrers will have to learn is his how to think on your feet when encountering other players. No more of the lets throw numbers at em to win a fight.. This is just my humble op. and I realize other have different memories and thoughts on the matter.
Comments
In any case will it be interesting to see how it all turn out.
Bingo. I had a lot of fun chasing down the elitist 8 mans all the time. Once they were gone we were back to the actual war at hand.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Hard CC can be a real tactical tool, but it also needs to come with a heavy price for using it. Long cooldowns, massive resource hog, some type of negative effect on the caster are some examples of ways that hard CC can be made more meaningful. There also needs to be multiple counters which are also somewhat restricted in use.
When you get to a point where you can make plays to have enemies use their counterplay to line up for hard CC, it becomes far more strategic in use. Class knowledge of your enemies becomes far more important as well. That's where the game becomes more fun for more folks.
As for what I feel should be in CU, it all comes down to what the devs want to achieve. If they want long term success then a heavy CC based game wont cut it. Any time you take control away from a player and then that player dies, the player feels frustrated. Its not fun for the player and the more negativity a player feels, the more likely they are to quit.
There are plenty of other ways to keep the combat varied, tactical and skill-based without pissing off players. WAR had short CC, but I saw and was a part of many small groups / raids that could take on the zerg and win. Rather than using CC or overpowered skills, the skill came from from distributing damage (tanks ftw) and clever use of morale abilities, using player collisions to protect squishies. The more skillful players still came out on top, but both sides always felt in control and had fun.
But I doubt you'll ever find any CC system that's universally considered ideal for PVP purposes.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The take away being, if you didn't know how to deal with CC you were a bad DAoC player.
- Albert Einstein
Played DAoC from beta for years and am well aware of its mechanics , and i stand by my statement .. Weak weak weak
Vellic - Guild Leader
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