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Power gaps

YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
One thing that concerns me most about pvp focused games is power gaps. By that I mean the power gap between a very well geared player and a player in average gear. To illustrate here are some examples of power gaps in other mmos on a scale of 1 (least gap) to 4 (highest gap):

1. GW2 Spvp: No gear/level advantage whatsoever.

2. GW2 WvW: The blue pvp gear (basically average/good gear) is fairly easy to get just by pvping, while the strongest gear is quite difficult to get but doesn't give a huge advantage over the basic pvp gear.

3. ESO: Average/good gear is fairly expensive and for the average player would require pve grinding to get it faster. Top gear is very expensive. The difference between a well geared player and a player in average gear is as far apart as heaven and earth (for example a well geared player will basically two shot a player in average gear, while receiving very little damage themselves, have high resource regen, etc.).

4. Tera: Similar to ESO except more pve grinding is needed and the best gear is also gated through rng (although you could probably just buy it for a lot of money).

For those people that are playing in the alpha or talk on the CU forums, where do you think CU will stand in a list like this? Obviously the game is not a semi-moba like GW2's spvp, but is the feeling among the community and the devs that the gear gap should be large like in many other mmos, or is the game leaning toward more of a horizontal power scaling, where actual knowledge of game mechanics and group play far outweigh gear?

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Comments

  • LedrirLedrir Member UncommonPosts: 69
    I don't think game developers understand how destructive the power gap is to the population of a game.  You have a small amount of hardcore players and a large amount of casual players.  Then the power gap develops.  Some power gaps can't be avoided like skill and group coordination.  However, also adding better gear and abilities onto this creates a very unfun environment for the casual players. Eventually the population dwindles and you are left with just the hardcore players who eventually leave as well because the population is too low.
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,818
    ESO's gear gap is very small. for example a v15 purple chest is like 1% difference from a v16 gold chest. In fact many people wear lower rank gear because they like the set bonuses better. Some go as low as v14 gear. No one has ever complained about the ESO gear power gap. People due complain the that v16 gold takes a lot of mats though. 

    If CU followed ESO model I would be very pleased. The best gear in game is crafted and easy to get. 
    "We see fundamentals and we ape in"
  • meddyckmeddyck Member UncommonPosts: 1,282
    They are aiming for a game with mostly (not 100%) horizontal progression which includes gear. Something in between how you have described GW 2 WvW and ESO would be my guess leaning more towards the GW 2 WvW model.

    Until they get to the point of actually adding progression and gear into testing it is hard to say for sure exactly how it will work however.

    DAOC Live (inactive): R11 Cleric R11 Druid R11 Minstrel R9 Eldritch R6 Sorc R6 Scout R6 Healer

  • Gaming.Rocks2Gaming.Rocks2 Member UncommonPosts: 531
    edited January 2016
    A new player might win a duel against a veteran. That's what they emphasized during their KS campaign. It's not like there won't be stats scaling but it's kinda like you are in full body armor facing a dude wearing a rag and holding a dagger. You probably win the fight but you can't just dismiss him because he might actually gouge your eyes out ;)
    Gaming Rocks next gen. community for last gen. gamers launching soon. 
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    bcbully said:
    If CU followed ESO model I would be very pleased. The best gear in game is crafted and easy to get. 
    ESO has a lot of good ideas, the crafting is especially well done imo.

     meddyck said:
    They are aiming for a game with mostly (not 100%) horizontal progression which includes gear. Something in between how you have described GW 2 WvW and ESO would be my guess leaning more towards the GW 2 WvW model.

    Until they get to the point of actually adding progression and gear into testing it is hard to say for sure exactly how it will work however.
    That sounds good, although I didn't realize the game was still at such an early stage development wise. 

    Gaming.Rocks said:
    A new player might win a duel against a veteran. That's what they emphasized during their KS campaign. It's not like there won't be stats scaling but it's kinda like you are in full body armor facing a dude wearing a rag and holding a dagger. You probably win the fight but you can't just dismiss him because he might actually gouge your eyes out ;)
    I think this sounds fine on paper, but in reality it will be hard for a game to capture the fighting skill required  to overcome such odds. That to me sounds like the kind of 5vs1 scenario I see a lot in most other mmos (one OP player in body armor with a nice sharp sword taking out groups of newer players armed with rags and a butter knife).
    ....
  • LokeroLokero Member RarePosts: 1,514
    I think sensible power gaps are fine.  I think players(both in PvE and PvP, tbh) should be on a bit of a see-saw when it comes to their power.

    For instance, a player who builds themselves up for melee combat should be pretty susceptible to magic.

    So, the above-mentioned melee guy may be a devastating power-house if you go up against him blade against blade, but a caster could potentially pick him apart.

    Obviously, there needs to be skill involved, and a guy shouldn't be a god if he doesn't know what he's doing, but as a general balancing tool for skills/gear.

    I think the problems arise when you can have everything and start to deviate from the rock-paper-scissors style philosophies... the same problems we've all seen time and time again when developers try to make it so everyone is "evenly balanced".

    People are always so worried about balance, but it's usually those attempts to balance every class out that cause things to go downhill in the long run.
  • Adjuvant1Adjuvant1 Member RarePosts: 2,100
    YashaX said:

    For those people that are playing in the alpha or talk on the CU forums, where do you think CU will stand in a list like this? Obviously the game is not a semi-moba like GW2's spvp, but is the feeling among the community and the devs that the gear gap should be large like in many other mmos, or is the game leaning toward more of a horizontal power scaling, where actual knowledge of game mechanics and group play far outweigh gear?

    If you're going for an educated comparison discussion, why didn't you include Warhammer Online? This pleb reddit junk you listed isn't even in the same zipcode.
  • RynetRynet Member UncommonPosts: 114
    This has been solved in some games by making all gear mean nothing in  PVP. Essentially it's a even play ground on that front. Only skill comes into play. 
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    Rynet said:
    This has been solved in some games by making all gear mean nothing in  PVP. Essentially it's a even play ground on that front. Only skill comes into play. 
    Yes that would be my preference in any pvp based game, but I think CU is going to have some form of gear/level gap, I am just unsure how extreme it will be. I don't have access to the CU forums (because I am not a backer) so I don't know what the community there thinks about this aspect of the game and was just trying to get some insight into it.

    For example, most people will claim that the mmo they like has fairly balanced pvp, but the only mmo that has come close to that for me was GW2 spvp pre-HoT. I still play and like games that aren't so focused on balance, but I am hoping that if the gear-gap is meant to be small, it is quite a bit smaller than the "small" gear-gap in ESO that has allowed play like this:


    ....
  • Adjuvant1Adjuvant1 Member RarePosts: 2,100
    edited January 2016
    That didn't happen because of gear disparity.

    Again, why don't you compare other Mark Jacobs games to CU?

    Here, I will help.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Jacobs_(video_game_designer)

  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    Adjuvant1 said:
    That didn't happen because of gear disparity.

    Again, why don't you compare other Mark Jacobs games to CU?

    Here, I will help.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Jacobs_(video_game_designer)

    WAR was my favorite mmo before they closed it down. And yes the one player taking out the whole enemy team, able to stand in boiling oil and take hits from siege while getting cc'd and focused fired by several other players had nothing to do with gear disparity, he was just really skilled.
    ....
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member LegendaryPosts: 3,438
    The power gap in WAR was horrendous, especially early on. 

    You hit tier 4 at level 32 and average player had a renown rank of 25-30ish so was wearing blues of that sort of level. But, you'd be pvping against level 40 rr60+ players who would just annihilate you. 

    Even once players realised that you had do completely ignore pve from 1-40, your renown rank was still capped to your level so it took ages to get the competitive, top tier gear. 

    It was only once they increased renown gains whilst leveling, removed the renown cap and made all the gear purchasable using gold that things started to improve balance wise (by basically making it easy to catch up), but by that point we'd already gone through a few rounds of server merges and most people had quit. 


    CU can't get it as wrong as WAR did
  • Adjuvant1Adjuvant1 Member RarePosts: 2,100
    YashaX said:
    Adjuvant1 said:
    That didn't happen because of gear disparity.

    Again, why don't you compare other Mark Jacobs games to CU?

    Here, I will help.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Jacobs_(video_game_designer)

    WAR was my favorite mmo before they closed it down. And yes the one player taking out the whole enemy team, able to stand in boiling oil and take hits from siege while getting cc'd and focused fired by several other players had nothing to do with gear disparity, he was just really skilled.
    Didn't happen on my watch, nor did fear of stacks of bright wizards. /shrug.
  • Adjuvant1Adjuvant1 Member RarePosts: 2,100
    edited January 2016
    The power gap in WAR was horrendous, especially early on. 

    You hit tier 4 at level 32 and average player had a renown rank of 25-30ish so was wearing blues of that sort of level. But, you'd be pvping against level 40 rr60+ players who would just annihilate you. 

    Even once players realised that you had do completely ignore pve from 1-40, your renown rank was still capped to your level so it took ages to get the competitive, top tier gear. 

    It was only once they increased renown gains whilst leveling, removed the renown cap and made all the gear purchasable using gold that things started to improve balance wise (by basically making it easy to catch up), but by that point we'd already gone through a few rounds of server merges and most people had quit. 


    CU can't get it as wrong as WAR did
    You weren't supposed to be able to jump in at the bottom of a tier and be competitive in any game. You take your knocks and play support/peripheral roles for the pack. This is no argument.

    edit: Wait, I just realized... is this the argument? Do you suppose some joe off the street is supposed to ding max level and automatically have some 50 50 chance to 1v1 someone with 200+ hours invested? What the actual hell, guys. That's really a strange position.

    further edit: See, when you argue gear disparity, you're supposed to be arguing all other conditions being equal. You're being disingenuous. Same level of IQ opponents, same time investiture, gear becomes only a matter of focused particular stat in a rock-paper-scissors game. That's always how Warhammer was. This weird idea you should be able to walk in with 50 hours, plus the baseline capacity to pound square pegs through square holes, and walk over a person with more time in, is twisted. No player in Warhammer I ever saw, unless fighting against people who had no clue, could win more than a desperate 2v1, and those were really competent DoKs and warpriests.
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    Adjuvant1 said:
    The power gap in WAR was horrendous, especially early on. 

    You hit tier 4 at level 32 and average player had a renown rank of 25-30ish so was wearing blues of that sort of level. But, you'd be pvping against level 40 rr60+ players who would just annihilate you. 

    Even once players realised that you had do completely ignore pve from 1-40, your renown rank was still capped to your level so it took ages to get the competitive, top tier gear. 

    It was only once they increased renown gains whilst leveling, removed the renown cap and made all the gear purchasable using gold that things started to improve balance wise (by basically making it easy to catch up), but by that point we'd already gone through a few rounds of server merges and most people had quit. 


    CU can't get it as wrong as WAR did
    You weren't supposed to be able to jump in at the bottom of a tier and be competitive in any game. You take your knocks and play support/peripheral roles for the pack. This is no argument.

    edit: Wait, I just realized... is this the argument? Do you suppose some joe off the street is supposed to ding max level and automatically have some 50 50 chance to 1v1 someone with 200+ hours invested? What the actual hell, guys. That's really a strange position.
    I am not trying to say CU should or shouldn't do anything. I am just reaching out to any backers or devs about what their view of how gear/level-gaps should operate in CU. If I could read the CU forums I would look/ask there but you have to be a backer to do that so I am asking here since I know some backers and devs read these forums.

    I understand completely your view on the matter, are you a backer? If so does the rest of the CU community generally feel the same way about gear/balance as you have illustrated in your posts?
    ....
  • LedrirLedrir Member UncommonPosts: 69
    I know that CU will have banes and boons for character creation.  Maybe they will have a similar type system to crafting.  For example you provide the dragon scales to a crafter to make your magical dragon armor.  Maybe this armor gives you extra bonus defense against certain weapons and magic but also makes you weaker against certain weapons and magic.  Or maybe the armor is heavier and makes you move slower.

    Of course the positives of the armor should outweigh the minuses, but having some minuses could keep the armor from providing too much of a competitive advantage.
  • vadio123vadio123 Member UncommonPosts: 593
    only time said 
    for now dont clue since i hardcore pvp and still play gw2/eso and now warhammer as well
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    The power gap in WAR was horrendous, especially early on. 

    You hit tier 4 at level 32 and average player had a renown rank of 25-30ish so was wearing blues of that sort of level. But, you'd be pvping against level 40 rr60+ players who would just annihilate you. 

    Even once players realised that you had do completely ignore pve from 1-40, your renown rank was still capped to your level so it took ages to get the competitive, top tier gear. 

    It was only once they increased renown gains whilst leveling, removed the renown cap and made all the gear purchasable using gold that things started to improve balance wise (by basically making it easy to catch up), but by that point we'd already gone through a few rounds of server merges and most people had quit. 


    CU can't get it as wrong as WAR did


    One of the great things about WAR was how it was basically designed so you could just pvp, I also liked how they attempted to create some balance by having tiered zones (although in some ways this may have backfired). But yeah, the difference in gear scaling did seem fairly large.

    ....
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,818
    YashaX said:
    Rynet said:
    This has been solved in some games by making all gear mean nothing in  PVP. Essentially it's a even play ground on that front. Only skill comes into play. 
    Yes that would be my preference in any pvp based game, but I think CU is going to have some form of gear/level gap, I am just unsure how extreme it will be. I don't have access to the CU forums (because I am not a backer) so I don't know what the community there thinks about this aspect of the game and was just trying to get some insight into it.

    For example, most people will claim that the mmo they like has fairly balanced pvp, but the only mmo that has come close to that for me was GW2 spvp pre-HoT. I still play and like games that aren't so focused on balance, but I am hoping that if the gear-gap is meant to be small, it is quite a bit smaller than the "small" gear-gap in ESO that has allowed play like this:


    That's not a gear gap man that was ESO launch month 2014 with a Vamp DK. Vamp DK was easily the most overpowered/unbalanced class combination ever put into a mmorpg! lol Before that right there I used to yell Balance is a myth! I never cried about OP. 

    Seriously man top teir players in ESO still run v14 stuff while cap is 16. Imagine in a game like WoW if people were wearing gear two levels lower than cap they would get crushed and be considered nobs. That's gear gap.

    I think I understand what you are saying though. Gear should be about flavor not power. If that's what you are saying I'll agree. I'd love that for CU. ESO gear does add power though tiers, but it may be the smallest power creep on the market today.
    "We see fundamentals and we ape in"
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    bcbully said:
    YashaX said:
    Rynet said:
    This has been solved in some games by making all gear mean nothing in  PVP. Essentially it's a even play ground on that front. Only skill comes into play. 
    Yes that would be my preference in any pvp based game, but I think CU is going to have some form of gear/level gap, I am just unsure how extreme it will be. I don't have access to the CU forums (because I am not a backer) so I don't know what the community there thinks about this aspect of the game and was just trying to get some insight into it.

    For example, most people will claim that the mmo they like has fairly balanced pvp, but the only mmo that has come close to that for me was GW2 spvp pre-HoT. I still play and like games that aren't so focused on balance, but I am hoping that if the gear-gap is meant to be small, it is quite a bit smaller than the "small" gear-gap in ESO that has allowed play like this:


    That's not a gear gap man that was ESO launch month 2014 with a Vamp DK. Vamp DK was easily the most overpowered/unbalanced class combination ever put into a mmorpg! lol Before that right there I used to yell Balance is a myth! I never cried about OP. 

    Seriously man top teir players in ESO still run v14 stuff while cap is 16. Imagine in a game like WoW if people were wearing gear two levels lower than cap they would get crushed and be considered nobs. That's gear gap.

    I think I understand what you are saying though. Gear should be about flavor not power. If that's what you are saying I'll agree. I'd love that for CU. ESO gear does add power though tiers, but it may be the smallest power creep on the market today.
    I could show you many other (although less extreme!) examples in ESO, but yeah without being picky about it basically what you said "gear should be about flavor not power" (I really like ESO's pvp btw, I am not trying to pick on it in particular- that video always makes me smile though).

    However, if CU is built to favor a kind of "gear race" that's ok, I'm not a backer so I don't have any right to ask for change or whatever, its just something I would like to know more about concerning CU since it looks like an amazing game. 
    ....
  • growillgrowill Member UncommonPosts: 28
    Well they DID say that for CU, being very RvR-centered, they were aiming for very small powergaps between hardcore vs casual players.
    And to be honest I'd say about time... I never understand why, if i'm looking for some good endgame pvp, I have to grind 2 months of useless, boring, repetitive stuff.
    And since camelot unchained is supposed to be for pvp/rvr lovers I really hope they'll go for that.

    I think the only thing that came close to that was gw2.. you could gear up easily and play your cards against other people with not so much gear imbalance. Too bad the wvw mechanic was not good enough.

    I loved too WAR and I think it would've been awesome if they didn't go for that crazy renown rank gear imbalance... they also promised fair pvp and not too much grind but again failed...

    ESO also I tried and OH GOSH between the time to level, gear and champion points the power gap is atrocious and it will take months to chase...

    MAybe for the end of the year between CU, crowfall and das taal something will come up...
  • RPGMASTERGAMERRPGMASTERGAMER Member UncommonPosts: 516
    bcbully said:
    YashaX said:
    Rynet said:
    This has been solved in some games by making all gear mean nothing in  PVP. Essentially it's a even play ground on that front. Only skill comes into play. 
    Yes that would be my preference in any pvp based game, but I think CU is going to have some form of gear/level gap, I am just unsure how extreme it will be. I don't have access to the CU forums (because I am not a backer) so I don't know what the community there thinks about this aspect of the game and was just trying to get some insight into it.

    For example, most people will claim that the mmo they like has fairly balanced pvp, but the only mmo that has come close to that for me was GW2 spvp pre-HoT. I still play and like games that aren't so focused on balance, but I am hoping that if the gear-gap is meant to be small, it is quite a bit smaller than the "small" gear-gap in ESO that has allowed play like this:


    That's not a gear gap man that was ESO launch month 2014 with a Vamp DK. Vamp DK was easily the most overpowered/unbalanced class combination ever put into a mmorpg! lol Before that right there I used to yell Balance is a myth! I never cried about OP. 

    Seriously man top teir players in ESO still run v14 stuff while cap is 16. Imagine in a game like WoW if people were wearing gear two levels lower than cap they would get crushed and be considered nobs. That's gear gap.

    I think I understand what you are saying though. Gear should be about flavor not power. If that's what you are saying I'll agree. I'd love that for CU. ESO gear does add power though tiers, but it may be the smallest power creep on the market today.
    ha sweet memory i was in the first people to get the bite on the server lol, people have spend alot of gold get my bite too lol. was playing my vamp dk in cyrodil that was amazing and fun, probably the most fun i have ever got in a mmorpg pvp wise, i was like a god,  i was running right in pack of 20++ players and killing everyone, people were running from me everywhere and hiding lol.

    was so fun :)

    i droped eso when they fixed my vamp DK but will remember this memory :)
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member LegendaryPosts: 3,438
    Adjuvant1 said:
    The power gap in WAR was horrendous, especially early on. 

    You hit tier 4 at level 32 and average player had a renown rank of 25-30ish so was wearing blues of that sort of level. But, you'd be pvping against level 40 rr60+ players who would just annihilate you. 

    Even once players realised that you had do completely ignore pve from 1-40, your renown rank was still capped to your level so it took ages to get the competitive, top tier gear. 

    It was only once they increased renown gains whilst leveling, removed the renown cap and made all the gear purchasable using gold that things started to improve balance wise (by basically making it easy to catch up), but by that point we'd already gone through a few rounds of server merges and most people had quit. 


    CU can't get it as wrong as WAR did
    You weren't supposed to be able to jump in at the bottom of a tier and be competitive in any game. You take your knocks and play support/peripheral roles for the pack. This is no argument.

    edit: Wait, I just realized... is this the argument? Do you suppose some joe off the street is supposed to ding max level and automatically have some 50 50 chance to 1v1 someone with 200+ hours invested? What the actual hell, guys. That's really a strange position.

    further edit: See, when you argue gear disparity, you're supposed to be arguing all other conditions being equal. You're being disingenuous. Same level of IQ opponents, same time investiture, gear becomes only a matter of focused particular stat in a rock-paper-scissors game. That's always how Warhammer was. This weird idea you should be able to walk in with 50 hours, plus the baseline capacity to pound square pegs through square holes, and walk over a person with more time in, is twisted. No player in Warhammer I ever saw, unless fighting against people who had no clue, could win more than a desperate 2v1, and those were really competent DoKs and warpriests.
    You've missed the whole arguement completely. 

    In a PvP game, the outcome is supposed to be based off player skill. If the game introduces power gaps, the outcome of a fight becomes skewed in favour of the person with power. Its not fun for the loser and quickly stops being fun for the winner. 

    If the power gap is further restricted by time, i.e. you can't reach a certain power level until you've invested enough time, then it fucks up the whole game as it did with WAR. For example, if you joined WAR 6 months after launch, then you would have to play 4 hours a day for 4 months or more before you even became competitive. How is that fun? How is that balanced?


    I don't expect someone fresh to level cap to have 50/50 chance of beating a vet. However, I expect the vet to win because they have a higher skill level as a result of time invested, not because they have a higher gear score. 


    Did you not notice that WAR had one of the worst retention rates ever? Beyond all the gameplay problems, even if you enjoyed the game and the pvp it still sucked if you were behind the gear curve. As for never seeing people winning 2v1s etc, you must be blind. I played a black orc, not even a particularly good soloer. When I reached RR68 or so and had nearly full sovereign gear, I could solo small groups of lower geared players easily. My best record was winning 5v1, and yes, they had a healer. However, they were all lower ranked (r40rr30-50) which meant i had nearly double their health but more importantly, I mitigated nearly all their damage. I didn't win through skill, I won through gear and the crazy power gap. 


    Power gaps suck. 

    In a PvP game, power gaps drive away new players and eventually kill the game. 

    CU should avoid power gaps. 
    YashaX
  • AxxarAxxar Member UncommonPosts: 104
    They are aiming for a far smaller power gap than is normal in MMORPGs. For example, a veteran character in World of WarCraft could probably kill about a thousand new players. They can't really injure him while he can one-shot them en masse with area effect spells.

    In CU there will still be progression, but the vertical scale will be much more reasonable. So a veteran might only be able to kill a small group of new players, or maybe even less if they are smart. This allows new players to still contribute, as veterans are not completely impervious as in traditional MMOs.

    Instead there will be a lot more emphasis on horisontal progression. Your character will gain more options rather than simply raise damage numbers to astronomical levels.
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