At this particular moment in the history of the MMORPG scene, it looks
laughably easy to manipulate kids because we have at least a decade of
gaming companies laying the ground for it. I mean look at the SC fiasco, shocking really.
So
I'm thinking, instead of trying to be the voice of reason I should
really just take advantage of this and get in this MMO development
racket. Big thank you to all you delusional 'gamers' for letting me realize this.
And by kinds you mean adults that have money to burn and choose to do so on video games?
I find it hilarious that some of you believe everyone else lacks common sense and are being robbed by these companies.
Some folks simply don't care that much and or won't miss $100-$10k. Amount I've put into BDO is a decent dinner on date night, if it turns terrible in a couple months, I won't be starving.
Not to say there aren't probably a few that don't take 5 seconds to look into what they are charging to their credit card, but those folks can't be helped regardless.
the thing thats wrong with that mentally is it gives devs of games and future devs a good reason to keep making shit fans of that genre arent cool with. The best way to hurt any business is to not spend money with them at all. The moment a game gets a few 10k ppl saying they dont care either way is the moment the devs will think to keep cashing out on them. And then, ppl that saw potential to make that game better will get fanboi'd to silence and the devs will keep handing out crap (or the lack thereof). So yea you SHOULD care either way, especially when you want the best someone has to offer in terms of a good game that also has potential to be better.
@Benjola we live in a capitalist society, everything is P2W.
True, but the systems that AA and BDO have in place are just brutal for any high-end player that actually wants to stick around in their fucking games and excel.
But then you have complete morons paying thousands of dollars for space ships to devs of Star Citizen, a game that doesn't even exist yet, a vaporware really, which makes the AA P2W scam look like a child's play.
So yeah, game companies have taken this way to far, from asking 15 bucks a month for a fully supported MMO that adds content regulary to thousands of dollars for just a promise of a game in less then a decade and the gamers are partially to blame for the whole thing because they haven't learned anything from past MMO fiascos and keep throwing money at any new MMORPG (many of which don't deserve the tag in first place) contributing to the deterioration of the genre in the process.
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
At this particular moment in the history of the MMORPG scene, it looks
laughably easy to manipulate kids because we have at least a decade of
gaming companies laying the ground for it. I mean look at the SC fiasco, shocking really.
So
I'm thinking, instead of trying to be the voice of reason I should
really just take advantage of this and get in this MMO development
racket. Big thank you to all you delusional 'gamers' for letting me realize this.
And by kinds you mean adults that have money to burn and choose to do so on video games?
I find it hilarious that some of you believe everyone else lacks common sense and are being robbed by these companies.
Some folks simply don't care that much and or won't miss $100-$10k. Amount I've put into BDO is a decent dinner on date night, if it turns terrible in a couple months, I won't be starving.
Not to say there aren't probably a few that don't take 5 seconds to look into what they are charging to their credit card, but those folks can't be helped regardless.
the thing thats wrong with that mentally is it gives devs of games and future devs a good reason to keep making shit fans of that genre arent cool with. The best way to hurt any business is to not spend money with them at all. The moment a game gets a few 10k ppl saying they dont care either way is the moment the devs will think to keep cashing out on them. And then, ppl that saw potential to make that game better will get fanboi'd to silence and the devs will keep handing out crap (or the lack thereof). So yea you SHOULD care either way, especially when you want the best someone has to offer in terms of a good game that also has potential to be better.
Yeah but you're asking hindsight on "the adult that has money to burn" and apparently that adult has none to spare. He can't be bothered wondering wether or not the game will flop or won't, he's just that important.
what level of resilience do you need for the challenge of RNG or zero risk? im not defending wow or any traditional pve oriented game, but why cant the challenge come before the definite prize?
and from what ive seen about BDO there is no chellenge in ANY thing you obtain gear wise - whether that being those lame ass open world dungeons, or those long winded tank and spank boss fights with no mechanics. The only "challenge" ive seen (not played, so plz correct me if im wrong) is the time sink needed to be the best type of trader/crafter and the mental fortitude to withstand some RNG for gear upgrades (pvp will have it for sure seeing as its situational).
Im not saying the games that have come out in recent times need to copy and paste what popular ones of the past have done to the T. But I cant for the life of me see why the sudden change in good challenging content.
Personally never found any mmorpg to be "challenging" in of themselves.
Time sinks =/= hard to me or rather "hardcore" as some like to call themselves. Trial and error isn't challenging, it's a chore. I'll commend folks in games like WoW that wipe 500+ times before clearing a dungeon, but after 500+ times it isn't exactly "skill" overcoming a challenge but slowly breaking down every tiny piece of a mechanic to overcome it to almost guarantee victory.
PVP is the only place I feel challenged as other players are unpredictable (not all) and always someone better.
I'd love for some of these games to be challenging outside of stabbing other players in the face and or grinding gear to do so.
But go to pretty much any game's forum and there are folks moaning about how terrible XYZ is. So either everything is garbage or some games simply aren't designed with every unique snowflake in mind and we have to pick what fits us best.
What you consider "good challenging content" might not match up 100% with me so not an easy way to answer your question, if I'm even understanding it correctly.
the thing thats wrong with that mentally is it gives devs of games and future devs a good reason to keep making shit fans of that genre arent cool with. The best way to hurt any business is to not spend money with them at all. The moment a game gets a few 10k ppl saying they dont care either way is the moment the devs will think to keep cashing out on them. And then, ppl that saw potential to make that game better will get fanboi'd to silence and the devs will keep handing out crap (or the lack thereof). So yea you SHOULD care either way, especially when you want the best someone has to offer in terms of a good game that also has potential to be better.
Problem with this view is that despite all the hate and "don't give them your money" vocal folks on forums, there are hundreds, thousands, millions actually in these "shit" games enjoying themselves.
Unless you can convince an entire demographic to stop playing/paying for something they might actually enjoy, not going to get anywhere.
Despite WoW being the devil that destroyed the genre, still has the most players. GW2, took a huge amount of negativity, still relatively popular, and so on. Heck AA still appears to be functioning so at least a few people like it.
BDO is supposed to be this evil P2W machine, yet KR, JP, RU still up and running and they some how have enough resources to launch in NA/EU. All while people don't all pay $10k a month to play.
Why should I or anyone that has actually enjoyed BDO not play/pay for it?
I don't endorse taking out a loan to pay to win in a game, but I'm not going to stop someone else from doing so.
Usually the ways people suggest to make a game better revolve around cutting a companies profits and or going against the design. Assuming they make suggestions at all, most around here just point the finger and have zero constructive suggestions.
Then companies actually attempt to get feedback, hello BDO, and you have people saying "it's a lie, will be P2W within a month." Clearly there is no simple solution that will make everyone happy.
Been playing online games over 20 years. If I was happy with any of them, I wouldn't be wasting my time on a forum. Even BDO isn't my ideal, not by a long shot. Gotta take the positives when I can or simply give up on gaming. Not ready just yet.
@Benjola we live in a capitalist society, everything is P2W.
True, but the systems that AA and BDO have in place are just brutal for any high-end player that actually wants to stick around in their fucking games and excel.
But then you have complete morons paying thousands of dollars for space ships to devs of Star Citizen, a game that doesn't even exist yet, a vaporware really, which makes the AA P2W scam look like a child's play.
So yeah, game companies have taken this way to far, from asking 15 bucks a month for a fully supported MMO that adds content regulary to thousands of dollars for just a promise of a game in less then a decade and the gamers are partially to blame for the whole thing because they haven't learned anything from past MMO fiascos and keep throwing money at any new MMORPG (many of which don't deserve the tag in first place) contributing to the deterioration of the genre in the process.
It's hilarious that you keep calling ArcheAge a scam. Not sure you've ever played the game or not.
Paying the minimal $15 a month to be a subscriber get's you virtually everything you could want. They do sell stuff to the "whales" but who freaking cares???
I will use my same example, NOBODY complains that you can buy card packs in Hearthstone. Yet everybody wants to complain about ArcheAge because you can buy labor pots. NEWS FLASH; if you have enough time to use all your labor points AND buy more and use those all in one day, you should really go outside and get a girlfriend.
An ultra casual shallow player like you that never even gets max level let alone participate in end-game features would not care about end game and everything the game has to offer no. Nor he would he be able to understand the discussion. This is why every post goes over your head and you still haven't learned that you don't even belong in MMORPG discussions or even playing them because you are approaching them from a casual single player experience.
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
An ultra casual shallow player like you that never even gets max level let alone participate in end-game features would not care about end game and everything the game has to offer no.
If you are claiming to be some ultra hardcore serious player that races to the "end," min/maxes, and does whatever it takes to be the bestest ever, I really don't understand the issue with P2W or any model/design.
If you are that serious about gaming, you have to devote XYZ to compete, be it time, energy, money or all of the above.
None of which have anything to do with "skill" or actually earning any competitive edge.
If you can't or won't pay to win (assuming it is 100% necessary), find a different game. Unless a game shuts down, clearly those in charge don't care if Joe "hardcore" quits or not. Ultimately it is their product and they deal with any consequences for their decisions.
BDO is not a fair game for many reasons. If people don't know that, they haven't bothered looking into it beyond "oooh it's pretty." Some people aren't looking for "fair" and even if they are, I'd like to know what games they play where they've actually found it.
Either invest what is needed to compete, or move along. Complaining because others are more serious than you and therefore the design is terrible, broken, unfair is a personal issue to work on.
I set my own goals and accept I won't be the best as I have a life outside of gaming, but will do what I can to maximize my entertainment within my limits.
Allein said: Complaining because others [have different acceptable standards] than you and therefore the design is terrible, broken, unfair is a personal issue to work on.
Ultimately all you are doing is complaining about 'complainers' and spamming don't like it don't buy it in 5000 word blog posts.
Why can't you accept that critically assessing the value of a product that wants your money is a perfectly valid form of discussion? If a company is going to use a disgusting monetization scheme, they will get called out.
Allein said: Complaining because others [have different acceptable standards] than you and therefore the design is terrible, broken, unfair is a personal issue to work on.
Ultimately all you are doing is complaining about 'complainers' and spamming don't like it don't buy it in 5000 word blog posts.
Why can't you accept that critically assessing the value of a product that wants your money is a perfectly valid form of discussion? If a company is going to use a disgusting monetization scheme, they will get called out.
I'm all for discussion, debate, being critical or whatever.
To call what you are doing as "critically assessing" is a pretty big stretch.
I'll keep this short so maybe you are able to get through my entire post and respond with something of worth.
Please list a few mmo games that haven't deviated from their original design, pay model, upset fans after launch, or done what was in the company's best interest over players.
How many of them are "fair" and don't require players to spend a lot of time, money, energy to be "the best?"
Ultimately you are spamming "I don't like KR games" on a forum for a KR game at people that actually do. As my "corrected" comment says, we all have different standards. Just because I don't find McDonalds to be quality food, doesn't mean I stand on a corner with a sign pointing it out.
Lol I've been a member of this site for years and have never before seen a poster typing walls of text just to say nothing at all. Well, not nothing. Your posts are telling me that you are so behind the curve on game design, playing games and general experience with video games that it's really not worth anyone's time to engage in any MMORPG related convo with you. Or, you are just playing dumb - (my money is actually on this). Either way I just can't learn anything new from you bud and I can't teach you anything as well, you are not listening, you are just repeating the same tripe every post. On that note, you will be the very first poster I've ever put on ignore, gratz.
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
Love when people resort to "you type too much and I can't read for 10 seconds without getting confused," aka I can't back up what I say or respond to actual questions/logic.
But true that none of us are really learning much from the back and forth, welcome to the forums that you've been a part of for so long.
Allein said: Complaining because others [have different acceptable standards] than you and therefore the design is terrible, broken, unfair is a personal issue to work on.
Ultimately all you are doing is complaining about 'complainers' and spamming don't like it don't buy it in 5000 word blog posts.
Why can't you accept that critically assessing the value of a product that wants your money is a perfectly valid form of discussion? If a company is going to use a disgusting monetization scheme, they will get called out.
I don't think BDO is using a "disgusting monetization scheme"; the way the game is monetized looks far better for gamers than AA was.
It is hard for me to understand how people can seriously say that BDO's monetization model is on par with AA's. One huge difference is that BDO requires no sub to unlock all the features of the game and has no optional f2p system. Everyone has to pay the entry fee and then everyone has equal access to all aspects of the game.
Asking for a sub to play the full game AND having an aggressive cash shop was one of the big issues with AA. In addition, although the more hardcore types think the limited land system in AA was great, its quite clear that it was a double edged sword that also created a lot of angst. BDO doesn't have that, but still has a deep and interesting housing system.
There are similarities of course, but the two games differ considerably in several key areas. I personally don't like the idea of extreme gear scaling and the issues it brings, but I can just enjoy the good parts - its very hard to find an mmo/game that perfectly fits all my tastes.
I would say that I'm not going to play this game but playing the beta left me wanting to see more. Hope they don't fuck it up but don't have high confidence.
Love when people resort to "you type too much and I can't read for 10 seconds without getting confused," aka I can't back up what I say or respond to actual questions/logic.
But true that none of us are really learning much from the back and forth, welcome to the forums that you've been a part of for so long.
Perhaps if you weren't polarising everything to such extremes it wouldn't be such a red rag to a bull. Saying comments like all games change their monetisation after launch therefore anything goes, or bunching spending real money with time logged and other time sinks to imply spending is just another type of hard core play is an example.
Patronising comments like "life isn't fair" or whatever don't sit well on some of us who consider competitive challenges like sports to be one of the few things life offers that can give us a level playing field.
Patronising comments like "life isn't fair" or whatever don't sit well on some of us who consider competitive challenges like sports to be one of the few things life offers that can give us a level playing field.
The word competitive continually triggers him. In his bubble verse competitive = jumping through every conceivable hoop a dev could possibly imagine. There is never a point where it simply becomes to much of a hassle for a legitimate player to even bother trying to make an honest effort. He is so completely out of touch that spending $10 000 on vertical stat upgrades is equivalent to building reflexes and skill rotations.
Games that try to be skill based and build a sustainable pvp community are apparently way to equal and fair...lol.
The word competitive continually triggers him. In his bubble verse competitive = jumping through every conceivable hoop a dev could possibly imagine. There is never a point where it simply becomes to much of a hassle for a legitimate player to even bother trying to make an honest effort. He is so completely out of touch that spending $10 000 on vertical stat upgrades is equivalent to building reflexes and skill rotations.
Games that try to be skill based and build a sustainable pvp community are apparently way to equal and fair...lol.
Why would a legitimate PVPer (whatever that is) spend any time on BDO or any fantasy mmorpg for that matter?
Zero of them are skill based entirely.
Outside of a WoW/GW2 arena setup with preset gear/lvls, these games aren't balanced in so many ways.
No where have I said that $10k or $1 = skill. BDO is very time sink based (gear/lvls). Regardless if someone is paying to skip that hassle or not. But skill isn't completely absent either.
Which again is like pretty much any fantasy mmorpg with unstructured PVP to ever exist. Including Crowfall.
If you are seeking a competitive/fair aka skill based design, you're in the wrong genre.
I am curious what a legitimate, competitive, honest effort player looks like and what games they play.
Comments
But then you have complete morons paying thousands of dollars for space ships to devs of Star Citizen, a game that doesn't even exist yet, a vaporware really, which makes the AA P2W scam look like a child's play.
So yeah, game companies have taken this way to far, from asking 15 bucks a month for a fully supported MMO that adds content regulary to thousands of dollars for just a promise of a game in less then a decade and the gamers are partially to blame for the whole thing because they haven't learned anything from past MMO fiascos and keep throwing money at any new MMORPG (many of which don't deserve the tag in first place) contributing to the deterioration of the genre in the process.
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
Time sinks =/= hard to me or rather "hardcore" as some like to call themselves. Trial and error isn't challenging, it's a chore. I'll commend folks in games like WoW that wipe 500+ times before clearing a dungeon, but after 500+ times it isn't exactly "skill" overcoming a challenge but slowly breaking down every tiny piece of a mechanic to overcome it to almost guarantee victory.
PVP is the only place I feel challenged as other players are unpredictable (not all) and always someone better.
I'd love for some of these games to be challenging outside of stabbing other players in the face and or grinding gear to do so.
But go to pretty much any game's forum and there are folks moaning about how terrible XYZ is. So either everything is garbage or some games simply aren't designed with every unique snowflake in mind and we have to pick what fits us best.
What you consider "good challenging content" might not match up 100% with me so not an easy way to answer your question, if I'm even understanding it correctly.
Unless you can convince an entire demographic to stop playing/paying for something they might actually enjoy, not going to get anywhere.
Despite WoW being the devil that destroyed the genre, still has the most players. GW2, took a huge amount of negativity, still relatively popular, and so on. Heck AA still appears to be functioning so at least a few people like it.
BDO is supposed to be this evil P2W machine, yet KR, JP, RU still up and running and they some how have enough resources to launch in NA/EU. All while people don't all pay $10k a month to play.
Why should I or anyone that has actually enjoyed BDO not play/pay for it?
I don't endorse taking out a loan to pay to win in a game, but I'm not going to stop someone else from doing so.
Usually the ways people suggest to make a game better revolve around cutting a companies profits and or going against the design. Assuming they make suggestions at all, most around here just point the finger and have zero constructive suggestions.
Then companies actually attempt to get feedback, hello BDO, and you have people saying "it's a lie, will be P2W within a month." Clearly there is no simple solution that will make everyone happy.
Been playing online games over 20 years. If I was happy with any of them, I wouldn't be wasting my time on a forum. Even BDO isn't my ideal, not by a long shot. Gotta take the positives when I can or simply give up on gaming. Not ready just yet.
Paying the minimal $15 a month to be a subscriber get's you virtually everything you could want. They do sell stuff to the "whales" but who freaking cares???
I will use my same example, NOBODY complains that you can buy card packs in Hearthstone. Yet everybody wants to complain about ArcheAge because you can buy labor pots. NEWS FLASH; if you have enough time to use all your labor points AND buy more and use those all in one day, you should really go outside and get a girlfriend.
But again, WHO CARES??
So much to learn for this young padavan here.
Seeing his post history though, not holding my breath.
An ultra casual shallow player like you that never even gets max level let alone participate in end-game features would not care about end game and everything the game has to offer no.
Nor he would he be able to understand the discussion.
This is why every post goes over your head and you still haven't learned that you don't even belong in MMORPG discussions or even playing them because you are approaching them from a casual single player experience.
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
If you are that serious about gaming, you have to devote XYZ to compete, be it time, energy, money or all of the above.
None of which have anything to do with "skill" or actually earning any competitive edge.
If you can't or won't pay to win (assuming it is 100% necessary), find a different game. Unless a game shuts down, clearly those in charge don't care if Joe "hardcore" quits or not. Ultimately it is their product and they deal with any consequences for their decisions.
BDO is not a fair game for many reasons. If people don't know that, they haven't bothered looking into it beyond "oooh it's pretty." Some people aren't looking for "fair" and even if they are, I'd like to know what games they play where they've actually found it.
Either invest what is needed to compete, or move along. Complaining because others are more serious than you and therefore the design is terrible, broken, unfair is a personal issue to work on.
I set my own goals and accept I won't be the best as I have a life outside of gaming, but will do what I can to maximize my entertainment within my limits.
Think about it.
Once I finish the story and cap my character I'm done, no endgame and nothing much to do once you cap out.
And there is the whole PVP aspect, but why do PVP in a game with PVP as a large feature...
Not sure if the NA/EU cap is 50 at launch, but getting to 56 is quite a climb for Awakenings.
Why can't you accept that critically assessing the value of a product that wants your money is a perfectly valid form of discussion? If a company is going to use a disgusting monetization scheme, they will get called out.
To call what you are doing as "critically assessing" is a pretty big stretch.
I'll keep this short so maybe you are able to get through my entire post and respond with something of worth.
Please list a few mmo games that haven't deviated from their original design, pay model, upset fans after launch, or done what was in the company's best interest over players.
How many of them are "fair" and don't require players to spend a lot of time, money, energy to be "the best?"
Ultimately you are spamming "I don't like KR games" on a forum for a KR game at people that actually do. As my "corrected" comment says, we all have different standards. Just because I don't find McDonalds to be quality food, doesn't mean I stand on a corner with a sign pointing it out.
I've been a member of this site for years and have never before seen a poster typing walls of text just to say nothing at all.
Well, not nothing.
Your posts are telling me that you are so behind the curve on game design, playing games and general experience with video games that it's really not worth anyone's time to engage in any MMORPG related convo with you.
Or, you are just playing dumb - (my money is actually on this).
Either way I just can't learn anything new from you bud and I can't teach you anything as well, you are not listening, you are just repeating the same tripe every post.
On that note, you will be the very first poster I've ever put on ignore, gratz.
I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.
Love when people resort to "you type too much and I can't read for 10 seconds without getting confused," aka I can't back up what I say or respond to actual questions/logic.
But true that none of us are really learning much from the back and forth, welcome to the forums that you've been a part of for so long.
It is hard for me to understand how people can seriously say that BDO's monetization model is on par with AA's. One huge difference is that BDO requires no sub to unlock all the features of the game and has no optional f2p system. Everyone has to pay the entry fee and then everyone has equal access to all aspects of the game.
Asking for a sub to play the full game AND having an aggressive cash shop was one of the big issues with AA. In addition, although the more hardcore types think the limited land system in AA was great, its quite clear that it was a double edged sword that also created a lot of angst. BDO doesn't have that, but still has a deep and interesting housing system.
There are similarities of course, but the two games differ considerably in several key areas. I personally don't like the idea of extreme gear scaling and the issues it brings, but I can just enjoy the good parts - its very hard to find an mmo/game that perfectly fits all my tastes.
Patronising comments like "life isn't fair" or whatever don't sit well on some of us who consider competitive challenges like sports to be one of the few things life offers that can give us a level playing field.
I give up.
BDO is an evil game by an evil company.
All hail Western sub only, cash shop free, everyone is equal mmos that focus on fairness and no advantage outside of player "skill."
They don't exist, but who cares, forums are where it is at!
Games that try to be skill based and build a sustainable pvp community are apparently way to equal and fair...lol.
Zero of them are skill based entirely.
Outside of a WoW/GW2 arena setup with preset gear/lvls, these games aren't balanced in so many ways.
No where have I said that $10k or $1 = skill. BDO is very time sink based (gear/lvls). Regardless if someone is paying to skip that hassle or not. But skill isn't completely absent either.
Which again is like pretty much any fantasy mmorpg with unstructured PVP to ever exist. Including Crowfall.
If you are seeking a competitive/fair aka skill based design, you're in the wrong genre.
I am curious what a legitimate, competitive, honest effort player looks like and what games they play.