Gorgon is missing some basic systems that oldschool mmorpgs have and it's largely thje fact that it's purely exploration based and the combat is pretty bland compared to many mmorpgs.
Gorgon is missing some basic systems that oldschool mmorpgs have and it's largely thje fact that it's purely exploration based and the combat is pretty bland compared to many mmorpgs.
The biggest add that I am looking for is more robust guild functionality. I don't need a ton, but I'd really love a guild banking system.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
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I tried it but couldnt get completely into it. Graphics arent everything, but for me they do have an effect and they are really rough here. There are a few things i dont like that are not closer to my old school game of choice (FFXI) like the lack of auto attack, death outside of defined fights have no negative impact and as much as i like the "classless" idea, it usually ends up pretty poorly by the end.
And for whoever said stuff about rose tinted glasses, i though i might be the same way but i have had more fun playing on a small buggy private server of an old version of FFXI than i have with pretty much any modern game i have tried. I still see the flaws but it has yet to be replaced even after a decade of trying bunches of new MMOs. I would also say the very large population with project 99 also shows that the old school games are still desired even if its a bigger niche than it once was. Games like Pantheon can not come any faster.
Biggest thing I disliked about Gorgon when trying it is the weekly limit on vendors.
Yeah, to me it's part of the attraction. Vendors actually have a limit. No it's not a real economy but it feels better than the unlimited funds in other games. It's made me focus on building up my relationships with key vendors to increase the cash each has as well as storage space.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Actually most of those old school MMOs which the veterans keep praising are still there. They just don't feel like playing them anymore.
Instead they are spending their time trash talking modern games.
They are but not in any recognisable form. EQ is not like classic EQ, but you can play on P99 for that, which I do. DAoC is still around but was spoiled by ToA, SWG got nerfed with the NGE then the plug was pulled.
Those games we talk about aren't still there in the same way, the same state that they were in when we played them. They evolved into something we no longer enjoyed, usually because they tried to appeal to the WoW crowd and became easier, watered down forms of the former selves.
As for Gorgon, it looks ok. I watched the video on the site's front page and they said that money from the early access/kickstart would be used, partly, to improve art assets. Even they acknowledge the game could look better, and they plan do do something about it.
It does look worth a try. It's not the best looking game but at least it's not 16 bit puke inducing graphics. They've made some effort to make it look playable.
Gorgon is missing some basic systems that oldschool mmorpgs have and it's largely thje fact that it's purely exploration based and the combat is pretty bland compared to many mmorpgs.
The biggest add that I am looking for is more robust guild functionality. I don't need a ton, but I'd really love a guild banking system.
It def needs more features and polish work and the like, combat is something to look at and some other things as well as guilds and some ui tweaks and the like. Explaining things a bit more at first would likely help to some degree as well.
That said nice exploration and stuff like that going on though it is still somewhat shallow in areas where I'm hoping they fill it out more extensively. I'm sure it will improve with time, though the team is relatively small it does feel like they love what they are doing and all that.
I am not bashing the game by any means though, there is just a lot "missing" currently and the thing I'm getting at it many of us that want old school MMORPG's are talking about games that are more robust in nature. I'd like to see an MMORPG do deep crafting systems that mattered a lot in gameplay, I'd like to see a push for grouping mechanics again and proper group setups with things beyond just tank, heals, and DPS (whatever happened to crowd control really?).
There is this focus in modern games to focus so much on combat related things that so much other stuff just feels tacked on. Crafters are just stuff anyone can do without much real investment into that character as a crafter, you have purely combat based roles outside of crafting etc. Back with SWG and more open ended games like that you were able to do so much more. You could be an entertainer, there was a focus on building communities and the like and there just isn't now.
These worlds can be big, they can be magnificent, they can have this deep lore, great communities, and deep systems, and yet we design around this rush to end game with no real journey. We are at a point where we might as well just make most MMORPG's non-level based and just have it be an endless gear treadmill made up of dungeons and raids with how blatantly easy most are.
Because they weren't capable of it, and nor were the computers at that time. I was there. The "old school" games were as good as they could be given the technology of the time, but using graphics that looked good in 1999 just isn't going to do it these days. Not now, when there are complex games like Blade and Soul and Black Desert (to name but a couple of upcoming games) that make full use of what people's modern-day computers are actually capable of.
I agree.
As an old school gamer who started on the first release day of UO, I'm really glad in this day and age we have the capabilities to produce nicer graphics. IMO, one of the biggest immersion-breaking things about the old-school games was the terribad graphics. Why would anyone want that garbage again?
It's amazing how many posts are dedicated to wanting a throwback game, but when an amazing one is actually in a playable state of development, folks skip it because it doesn't have AAA eye-candy. This is the PvE game people have been claiming they want.
If you try it and it's just not for you, OK. But if you don' even give it a shot, you really should never again post about the good old days or how MMOs "used to be".
And yes, it's Project:Gorgon but the subject line ran out of room
Out of the gate, I tried P:G and, while I appreciate what they're doing, and all the work they've done for such a small team, the game doesn't really hold my interest. A few key aspects of the game are a turn-off to me, and the graphics aren't one of them. Graphics are never a deal-breaker for me, and I tend to think many people take the whole graphics thing to absurd lengths - but that's me. Anyway, I didn't think P:G was that horrible looking; it just needs more cohesion in the art style dept. The tech is fine; Unity3D can push out some nice looking stuff.
That said, you present something of a false dichotomy. It's not nearly so "all or nothing" as you make it sound.
A person who longs for an old-school style MMO could very well have merely read about the features of P:G, looked at some footage, or what-not, and decided "ehh.. I'm not really crazy about how they're handling some core concepts, I think I'm gonna give this one a pass for now".
Further, P:G isn't the only game in town going for that old-school approach. There is Pantheon, and Crowfall, and Camelot Unchained, and other projects which also seek to return to the roots of the genre, each in their own way, with their own ideas and implementations.
So, while I can appreciate that you're clearly a fan of P:G, your premise is rather flawed and short-sighted.
Actually most of those old school MMOs which the veterans keep praising are still there. They just don't feel like playing them anymore.
Instead they are spending their time trash talking modern games.
That's because they "changed" which is hilarious because they also go on about "living breathing worlds". MMOs aren't static. They change and grow. What those people want is a static world snapshot that never changes - not an MMORPG.
They're overly nostalgic. Nothing can match their selective memories of games like daoc, eq1, swg, etc...
Funny thing is, it had been so many years since I found enjoyment in an MMO that I almost started believing this. Then I played ArcheAge alpha and it was great, like really great. I would actually consider it maybe the second or third best MMO I have played. Alas, then there was 1.2 and the cash shop and the crafting RNG added and it "changed". I guess is should have stuck it out in that changing and growing game, I'm such a cynical Ahole.
Also, those games you mentioned are among the best MMOs ever made, period. Are you implying people just remember it that way and they actually weren't?
No... I'm implying that they are all overrated at this point. Keep in mind that overrated does not mean bad and I would agree that they are among the best MMOs ever made, still they are far from what most seem to remember them as.
I can't speak for Everquest as I hardly played it. However I'm sure I've played more DAoC and SWG than most. I can tell you, without a doubt, the amount of whining rivaled any modern MMO out there... especially in the more "elitist" crowds. I still remember the scores of complaints that would pop up after every DAoC patch filled with rants about various perceived "imbalances". Population imbalance was a "problem" essentially from launch. Point is those games were not just sunshine and roses, they had their fair share of issues.
Further, P:G isn't the only game in town going for that old-school approach. There is Pantheon, and Crowfall, and Camelot Unchained, and other projects which also seek to return to the roots of the genre, each in their own way, with their own ideas and implementations.
So, while I can appreciate that you're clearly a fan of P:G, your premise is rather flawed and short-sighted.
All of those games are in a far less playable state currently and all of them require that you pay, sight unseen for the privilege of testing those games.
That said, I have accounts on both Crowfall (where I pledged way too much for a rational person) and Camelot Unchained. Those are dramatically different games than Gorgon though as their focus is on PvP and territory control. I'd argue that Crowfall is about as far from an "old-school" MMORPG as you can get with the entire Hunger aspect and game reset. Pantheon I originally reflexively pledged to on their KS but when i saw how bad that was run I elected to wait after the KS failed. If they deliver on their promises I'll be happy to buy, but Brad doesn't get any more of my money up front. Ever.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I'm one of those who wants to take the design philosophies of old-school MMOs and implement them using modern techniques and lessons learned. I'm not an advocate of simply reverting to the old-school and old-school MMOs made tons of mistakes.
I've not played Project:Gorgon.
I took a good look through the website to get a better understanding. First impression? Amateurs. Their whole website looks like it was built by amateurs, just horrible layout, styling etc. I don't want to play a game made by amateurs. Amateurs don't have the capability to build a complex MMO to rival old-school games.
Second impression: What is the game even about? Seriously, I read through the welcome post, all the game info etc and I still don't know what the game is about. It seems like it is about exploration, but its not clear. This is a terrible thing! Why the fuck would anyone want to play a game that has no purpose? nothing to attract you? Plus, if it is about exploration, you're seriously gimping yourself with terrible graphics.
The whole game seems like a couple of developer friends got together to reminisce about the good 'ol days, picked their favourite 3 or 4 game mechanics and slapped them together into a game. Thats fine as an intellectual exercise, but that isn't a good way to build a game.
Finally, as others have said, "old-school" mmos came in all shapes and sizes. When I think old-school, I think SWG, which means character freedom, crazy big worlds, player cities, community and lots of pvp. Others think of more structured PvE like EQ / AC. Others still think RvR like DAoC. The only common traits that old-school MMOs really had in common are: bigger worlds, long leveling time, lots of grind, more variety, more grouping.
I love this game. I played it right when it first came out and it looked AWEFUL but it was barely playable too. I then took breaks off and on, the latest for a year, because I had run through the available content. When I did come back the graphics were outstanding in comparison to what I had known. Granted, they're not GW2 nice yet, and may never be, but the huge jump TWO developers were able to make really impressed me. Throw in the true mmorpg gameplay and this game is something I think a lot of people want. Plus, I don't thinking graphics are anywhere near important to overall game enjoyment. Just look at minecraft.
I played it for a little while. The interface seemed broken and unusable. The gameplay was fun. Is the interface usable or still giving error messages constantly?
I'm sure as they start generating revenue one way or another that they'll improve their graphics little by little. The path they're taking of making a good game that can be upgraded slowly is smart. You see all my anti-themepark posts and how much I love old school games and the grind, don't indict me over this one buddy.
Actually most of those old school MMOs which the veterans keep praising are still there. They just don't feel like playing them anymore.
Instead they are spending their time trash talking modern games.
That's because they "changed" which is hilarious because they also go on about "living breathing worlds". MMOs aren't static. They change and grow. What those people want is a static world snapshot that never changes - not an MMORPG.
It's not hard to identify what millions of people want. That's where the development direction is. They show up on revenue reports.
I was playing Lineage way before WoW. I'm not characterizing pre-WoW players. I'm characterizing players who make ludicrous unsubstantiated claims about first generation games as it relates to current development.
Okay, excuse my comparison here, but millions of people eat at McDonald's and that company is like the WoW of fast food. If restaurant companies acted like MMO devs, every restaurant that came out would be like a moderately altered version of McDonald's.
So you are saying that if I want some more old school mechanics and gameplay than I have to put up with low production values and incomplete games, otherwise, I am a hypocrite?
Project Gorgon is roughly equivalent to Anarchy Online, a game I played in 2002, my first MMO and why I fell in love with the genre. I think after spending money on MMOs for 13 years that I have every right to expect and hope for a game that is and upgrade to AO in every way.
However, while in AAA games graphics have improved the gameplay is in fact worse. So I should in that case play an incomplete game, with no upgrade to 2002 or shut up. No, I just will not spend money on MMOs because they are now a boring waste of time.
The funny thing is, I now have a lot more money, time and willingness to spend it than I did in 2002 as a student.
Why would I play Gorgon when I can play the old school design I prefer (SWG, multiple versions of it from Pre-cu to the NGE) ?
Yep, the original versions of the older games are the only way currently to get the gameplay posed in this thread. Project Gorgon certainly has elements of this but even graphics aside does not completely fit the bill. Does it look like it could be great. Indeed but is still a ways out, the development is actually being done right, improving systems first and not the flare of polish. I'll be keeping an eye on it for sure.
The excuse that the "old school" MMOs are still there is only half true. On official servers they are there in name but not really in spirit (EQ's newest TLEs are pretty close however). There are thousands upon thousands playing unofficial servers so that says something.
There are a group of players that would like a newer, high production version of that original MMO state. Will we get it? I think so over time because the toolsets are getting better where not as much $ is needed to get the same production quality. In the meantime we have a valid assertion, one that can't really be argued against. There is indeed an empty spot in current MMOs where "difficult" PvE content is concerned in the MMOsphere.
Comments
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
And for whoever said stuff about rose tinted glasses, i though i might be the same way but i have had more fun playing on a small buggy private server of an old version of FFXI than i have with pretty much any modern game i have tried. I still see the flaws but it has yet to be replaced even after a decade of trying bunches of new MMOs. I would also say the very large population with project 99 also shows that the old school games are still desired even if its a bigger niche than it once was. Games like Pantheon can not come any faster.
So am I a) not serious about wanting old school mmorpgs, or b) serious about NOT wanting old school mmorpgs? I will let you be the judge of that.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
You answered your own question.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Those games we talk about aren't still there in the same way, the same state that they were in when we played them. They evolved into something we no longer enjoyed, usually because they tried to appeal to the WoW crowd and became easier, watered down forms of the former selves.
As for Gorgon, it looks ok. I watched the video on the site's front page and they said that money from the early access/kickstart would be used, partly, to improve art assets. Even they acknowledge the game could look better, and they plan do do something about it.
It does look worth a try. It's not the best looking game but at least it's not 16 bit puke inducing graphics. They've made some effort to make it look playable.
That said nice exploration and stuff like that going on though it is still somewhat shallow in areas where I'm hoping they fill it out more extensively. I'm sure it will improve with time, though the team is relatively small it does feel like they love what they are doing and all that.
I am not bashing the game by any means though, there is just a lot "missing" currently and the thing I'm getting at it many of us that want old school MMORPG's are talking about games that are more robust in nature. I'd like to see an MMORPG do deep crafting systems that mattered a lot in gameplay, I'd like to see a push for grouping mechanics again and proper group setups with things beyond just tank, heals, and DPS (whatever happened to crowd control really?).
There is this focus in modern games to focus so much on combat related things that so much other stuff just feels tacked on. Crafters are just stuff anyone can do without much real investment into that character as a crafter, you have purely combat based roles outside of crafting etc. Back with SWG and more open ended games like that you were able to do so much more. You could be an entertainer, there was a focus on building communities and the like and there just isn't now.
These worlds can be big, they can be magnificent, they can have this deep lore, great communities, and deep systems, and yet we design around this rush to end game with no real journey. We are at a point where we might as well just make most MMORPG's non-level based and just have it be an endless gear treadmill made up of dungeons and raids with how blatantly easy most are.
As an old school gamer who started on the first release day of UO, I'm really glad in this day and age we have the capabilities to produce nicer graphics. IMO, one of the biggest immersion-breaking things about the old-school games was the terribad graphics. Why would anyone want that garbage again?
~~ postlarval ~~
That said, you present something of a false dichotomy. It's not nearly so "all or nothing" as you make it sound.
A person who longs for an old-school style MMO could very well have merely read about the features of P:G, looked at some footage, or what-not, and decided "ehh.. I'm not really crazy about how they're handling some core concepts, I think I'm gonna give this one a pass for now".
Further, P:G isn't the only game in town going for that old-school approach. There is Pantheon, and Crowfall, and Camelot Unchained, and other projects which also seek to return to the roots of the genre, each in their own way, with their own ideas and implementations.
So, while I can appreciate that you're clearly a fan of P:G, your premise is rather flawed and short-sighted.
I can't speak for Everquest as I hardly played it. However I'm sure I've played more DAoC and SWG than most. I can tell you, without a doubt, the amount of whining rivaled any modern MMO out there... especially in the more "elitist" crowds. I still remember the scores of complaints that would pop up after every DAoC patch filled with rants about various perceived "imbalances". Population imbalance was a "problem" essentially from launch. Point is those games were not just sunshine and roses, they had their fair share of issues.
That said, I have accounts on both Crowfall (where I pledged way too much for a rational person) and Camelot Unchained. Those are dramatically different games than Gorgon though as their focus is on PvP and territory control. I'd argue that Crowfall is about as far from an "old-school" MMORPG as you can get with the entire Hunger aspect and game reset. Pantheon I originally reflexively pledged to on their KS but when i saw how bad that was run I elected to wait after the KS failed. If they deliver on their promises I'll be happy to buy, but Brad doesn't get any more of my money up front. Ever.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
No fate but what we make, so make me a ham sandwich please.
I've not played Project:Gorgon.
I took a good look through the website to get a better understanding. First impression? Amateurs. Their whole website looks like it was built by amateurs, just horrible layout, styling etc. I don't want to play a game made by amateurs. Amateurs don't have the capability to build a complex MMO to rival old-school games.
Second impression: What is the game even about? Seriously, I read through the welcome post, all the game info etc and I still don't know what the game is about. It seems like it is about exploration, but its not clear. This is a terrible thing! Why the fuck would anyone want to play a game that has no purpose? nothing to attract you? Plus, if it is about exploration, you're seriously gimping yourself with terrible graphics.
The whole game seems like a couple of developer friends got together to reminisce about the good 'ol days, picked their favourite 3 or 4 game mechanics and slapped them together into a game. Thats fine as an intellectual exercise, but that isn't a good way to build a game.
Finally, as others have said, "old-school" mmos came in all shapes and sizes. When I think old-school, I think SWG, which means character freedom, crazy big worlds, player cities, community and lots of pvp. Others think of more structured PvE like EQ / AC. Others still think RvR like DAoC. The only common traits that old-school MMOs really had in common are: bigger worlds, long leveling time, lots of grind, more variety, more grouping.
I'm sure as they start generating revenue one way or another that they'll improve their graphics little by little. The path they're taking of making a good game that can be upgraded slowly is smart. You see all my anti-themepark posts and how much I love old school games and the grind, don't indict me over this one buddy.
Project Gorgon is roughly equivalent to Anarchy Online, a game I played in 2002, my first MMO and why I fell in love with the genre. I think after spending money on MMOs for 13 years that I have every right to expect and hope for a game that is and upgrade to AO in every way.
However, while in AAA games graphics have improved the gameplay is in fact worse. So I should in that case play an incomplete game, with no upgrade to 2002 or shut up. No, I just will not spend money on MMOs because they are now a boring waste of time.
The funny thing is, I now have a lot more money, time and willingness to spend it than I did in 2002 as a student.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Yep, the original versions of the older games are the only way currently to get the gameplay posed in this thread. Project Gorgon certainly has elements of this but even graphics aside does not completely fit the bill. Does it look like it could be great. Indeed but is still a ways out, the development is actually being done right, improving systems first and not the flare of polish. I'll be keeping an eye on it for sure.
The excuse that the "old school" MMOs are still there is only half true. On official servers they are there in name but not really in spirit (EQ's newest TLEs are pretty close however). There are thousands upon thousands playing unofficial servers so that says something.
There are a group of players that would like a newer, high production version of that original MMO state. Will we get it? I think so over time because the toolsets are getting better where not as much $ is needed to get the same production quality. In the meantime we have a valid assertion, one that can't really be argued against. There is indeed an empty spot in current MMOs where "difficult" PvE content is concerned in the MMOsphere.