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Trying again - High population, soloing difficult or impossible, slow XP gain

DesirsarDesirsar Member UncommonPosts: 116
Yeah, this will probably restrict me to newer games.  My preference is levelless and classless, and open world (even if zoned) over instancing.  There should be as many players working on characters below the cap as there are raiding at the cap (or whatever you'd consider the "cap" in a levelless system.)

Keeping the first post short, details of my previous searches will be in the post below.

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  • DesirsarDesirsar Member UncommonPosts: 116
    http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/423608/steepest-learning-skill-curve-most-complex-mechanics/p1

    http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/422913/looking-for-open-world-pve-focus-crafting-heavy-grouping/p1

    Desirsar said:

    I had a perfectly functional topic for this going here, before it was randomly closed in spite of logic : http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/157538/page/1

    A recap of things I've tried, and the evolution of what I want in a game :


    - I should be able to hunt or otherwise earn experience when I can't find a group.  Soloing to maximum level should probably be possible (but not entirely necessary), but it shouldn't be the most efficient method, because...

    - I should always be able to find a group, at any level.  This can either be due to the size of the server population, or the game could be designed with positive rewards for grouping.  (Positive would be experience per player faster over a given length of time, either questing or killing.  Negative would be making most content so hard that a group is absolutely necessary.)

    - Item crafting should be interesting, and definitely not tedious.  (Component collecting can be borderline tedious, I suppose.)  Crafted items should be viable for at least either economic reasons or being functionally equivalent (or serving alternate functions) as dropped items.

    - Roleplaying elements should exist in the world (strong, compelling, detailed world lore), but not be forced on the players, either by the game or by the community.  Basically, you should be able to roleplay if you want to, not do if you don't want to, but the world should be so awesome that even the most hardcore powergamers are simply compelled to by mystical force.

    Genre doesn't matter.  Graphics quality doesn't matter (although I have a 7950GT for a reason!)  Age of the game doesn't matter.  Decent subscriber base would be good, but it doesn't matter if there are enough players in the world to make it work.  Games I've played before...  *runs electric current into the brain to remember them all from so long ago*  ...Everquest, DAoC, AO, AC, GW, LOTRO, WoW, AA, Jumpgate, SWG, EQ2, Planetside, Puzzle Pirates, CoH, DDO, EVE, Lineage 2, Tabula Rasa, Vendetta Online, and I've tried just about every pay-to-play style "free" MMO there is.  Some of those were only in beta, but I have a good idea of what the game is like and ability to find groups is like if I bothered to include it on this list.  The only free game I played much of was Space Cowboy, which doesn't really compare to my list here due to its design, and I don't mention that I've spent a lot of time in There and Second Life as well.  I also leave out the golf games, no real killing or quests there.  :)



    I guess that's another point I left out - I absolutely cannot comprehend the logic of game designers that make 75% or the game's content for players at or near the maximum level, and then continue to force new players and characters to work their way up to the level where the fun part of the game actually begins.  (To me, that's where you start playing with other people more regularly.  To others, I can see that being the level for which the majority of the content is designed.)


    You're hitting on every reason why I'm looking for a new MMO and I'm logged into WoW while I'm writing this post. Sure, you can solo to 60 - you have to, because no one is grouping other than instanced dungeons, and not really even that at lower levels. If it's supposed to be an MMO, why do I not actually play with people before 60? Just start me at 60, in that case.

    I already play on RP servers, because they tend to have more intelligent and mature players. (Tend to. Not always, heh.) I would never join an RP guild... I was in a "light" RP guild that went nuts if you said anything out of character in guild chat, you were supposed to use a custom chat channel for that (that no one was ever in.) The rules of RP servers are that guild chat is the only truly unmonitored, OOC permitted channel. I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me when and how all our character got communal telepathic powers that work across planets that we can use /tell and general chat channels that they're supposed to be in-character...

    Yeah, I've been noticing and hearing about that. I don't want to get there faster, I want getting there to be more fun. I'd rather see more MMOs put out every other expansion with no content for max level players, but enough excellent lower level content that everyone would buy it and leave their current characters to run a new character through it all.



    That's one thing I loved about CoH, finding a group was never a problem.  (And finding people to permanently ignore when they realized I wasn't an empathy defender, but was, in fact, more effective, but still wouldn't group with me, was also easy to do.  :)  I loved how much hurricane was and probably still is overpowered, but no one used it properly so no one noticed...)  It just gets old after a while, repeating the same series of attacks against any type of NPCs over and over, and maybe having to find some glowing object to finish a mission.  That could be said about a lot of games, but it seemed to wear thin a lot sooner in CoX than other MMOs.

    It's not impossible to make games that are single dimensional that keep you playing a long time - wrestling games have only one goal, any sports game (not counting a franchise manager mode or whatever), Forza or other racing games in the sense that you can both drive and paint the cars.  I just don't get why it's never done in an MMO in a way that it is constantly new and changed every time.  (Planetside is a good example, because your opponent learns what you're trying to do eventually, and changes their tactic.  Kind of hard to compare with a game that has zero PvE, I suppose.)

    It's not an impossible thing for me to try games I've quit from in the past (like my current subscription to WoW), but it's hard for me to want to go back, even after major changes, when most players are not going to be using characters that I can group with, and I'm not interested in a game where I have to play some 200 hours of single player before I can play the multiplayer part.  (That could be said of Pokemon, but at least the single player part of that is fun plus it doesn't remind you constantly that you're not doing the multiplayer part yet...)


  • DesirsarDesirsar Member UncommonPosts: 116

    So, three years later (or so) and I'm looking again.  I've tried just about every micropayment game since the last posts, but there hasn't been a subscription MMO out since then that I've been particularly interested in.  (Might have gotten myself stuck in STO if I'd gotten into beta, but it definitely looked bad enough in gameplay videos and reviews that I would never buy it.)  Still waiting on Jumpgate Evolution, but that will always be along whatever sports and fantasy RPG titles I'm playing at any time.  Been playing Football Superstars since last January, got stupidly banned (game staff stupid, banning me instead of the player who actually broke the rules, long story), and still play currently on a newer account (game staff seems to be "over it".)  Cant get myself to stay into DDO or EQ2 lately, since DDO has that D&D hook (if not much else) and I have time invested in EQ2 (too much work to catch back up in EQ1.)

    Then I realized that I always go back to roguelikes!  Incursion, ADoM, Nethack, Angband - I'll play just about any roguelike over and over forever, even installing emulators on my portable devices like DS or Palm Pre to play them!  So, I ask the impossible question...

    Are there any MMOs I haven't tried that play like a 3-D multiplayer roguelike?  Same preferences apply : crafting, large persistent world without instances, mechanical encouragement for grouping but at least mostly soloable, non-sucky lore, and if the game is older, the population cannot be at "on life support" levels.



    Took me a bit to search for my old post to bump it.  :)  Didn't want to have to spend a few hours thinking of everything I'd played before and typing it up again.

    Vanguard's mechanics were fine, graphics not distracting, slightly better combat than the standard "mash every hotkey as soon as it refreshes" WoW or EQ2, crafting system was frustrating yet satisfying when you finally make something, umm...  The diplomacy game could have been a little more complex and challenging, but it was an interesting alternative to simply running around killing every badger, frog, and undead you can find.  Been a while since I played it, can't think of anything else specific, but even having found a fairly active guild, I still couldn't just log on and find players my level looking for a group or groups begging me to join.  (In fact, the only game I know of on the level of group finding-ness I want is Planetside, but the genre and mechanics play a huge role in that, obviously.  On the plus side, I racked up plenty of XP even without a group by driving support vehicles near combat and then hiding in a nearby hill and sniping.)

    I think what I want most when I say "roguelike" is the lack of explicit game guides (for some.)  Even if the basic overworld map is static, dungeons (if instanced, public - I want to see other players!) would be mechanically random so that guide websites would only be useful for game mechanics - the overall design should limit the usefulness of maps and quest guides found on various web sites.  Soloers or groups would have to actually go into a dungeon and explore it, and the NPC AI should be good enough that you actually have to prepare in a general sense (knowing you're going to be running into a dungeon of illithids still could mean they're mages, warriors, priests, or some mix of those, and no telling what they're keeping as pets/slaves), and then figure out the actual combat strategy when you get that far - preferably with options for finishing quests or dungeons without any combat at all, if you're good (of course, the game design would have to prevent exploits, but stat and skill system making it manageable.)

    In a tabletop RPG setting, you never know what the DM is bringing in terms of location, monsters, quest-y bits, or anything else on a given night.  That's the aspect of roguelikes I want to see in an MMO, but I'm pretty sure does not exist yet.  That's why I'm posting here, in case I'm wrong and someone else knows which game I'm looking for.



    Finally got around to trying Darkfall.  Game looks decent, I love the skill system and combat system, hate that there's nothing to do but grind skills or kill other players.  So much so, that someone followed me around (still under protection) for quite a while waiting to see if I'd die to PvE enemies, and looted my corpse when I did.  I'd put away two sets of equipment in the bank, but that's still too much of an indication of a lack of compelling PvE content.  Make a game with Darkfall's combat and everything else (full PvP included!) in a world the size and depth of EQ1 and you'd have something.  (And with a functional alignment system.  Planetside certainly did it right...)

    Anything else I haven't tried that might be decent?


  • DesirsarDesirsar Member UncommonPosts: 116

    I don't know why I didn't mention it in my bump post, I had played CoH and EQ2 within a month of making the post.  Not being able to get back into either was what made me post.  Bit of a waste of money for the reactivation month in each game except when I do EQ2, because I usually play a million hours on an alt for a month and then not have the money to keep the account going (I seem to have bad timing with that game, heh.)  It was the first time I'd unsubscribed from CoH willingly.

    Did Darkfall, joined one of the most powerful guilds on the server.  They were very helpful, defending our holdings was interesting, and my FPS and artillery game experience helped tremendously at archery.  Forced onto a bad wifi connection, Darkfall doesn't handle latency at all (not just "poorly", if you drop packets ever, you might as well not even try to play), and I stopped to save the money and until I could get my proper connection back.

    Gave Asheron's Call a try, but it's dead at the low levels and starting town.  If I wanted to have to solo to catch the high level population just to find people who are grouping at a given level range, I'd go bore myself with WoW.

    Looking for a new game (or not new) again, decided it wasn't quite what I was looking for, so here I am back at this thread, bumping for great justice.

    Emphasis this time :  People always on.  Lots of people.  Not just the top-heavy hardcore population.  Always someone to group with at all levels.  Game design allows for soloing, but people will actually WANT to group at all levels (either because the game is hard or because they give bonus XP or soemthing else mechanical.)  Large world.  Questy bits that actually take some thought from the player.  Randomish monster spawns and dungeons (procedurally generated games are awesome - see roguelikes or Spelunky.)  Player crafted items are very functional, yet rare (scarce?  To use an economics term), and crafting does not have a painful interface.  Classless and levelless a plus.  Experience should be based on how much time is spent actively playing the game, and a "busy" and effective new player *will* make significant strides on a complacent veteran.  (Does it sound like that that one explicitly excludes EVE?  It is meant to.)  Genre is unimportant, but can't be outright silly.

    Most of all, the game must look like it was published by a competent company with a decent sized staff, preferably who knows how to test their own game for bugs without basically beta testing on the end user.  Graphics aren't a big deal (my Atari 2600 is still hooked up to my TV right now), but they are one sign that the game is well designed.

    Yes, I know I ask too much, but I am really getting sick of making new characters or parties in Neverwinter Nights 2, or having to always fall back to roguelikes (Incursion and ADoM, mostly.)



    Let's try two years later...  out of college, have a job.  Only things that hold my attention or interest for long are World of Tanks and Football Superstars.  I maintain my Station Pass or All Access or whatever they call it this week, but I rarely use it.  I have an active EVE account and There.com account as well.  I still play Neverwinter Nights 2 weekly, trying random character classes and races and trying to do anything with the storyline I haven't (there really isn't anything left, I have every bit of voice acting from the first act of the first campaign memorized.)

    Does my game exist yet?  Sandbox, procedurally generated inside a persistant world (instancing at a minimum), deep crafting, player economy, skills instead of levels is a plus, PvP can exist but PvE should be the focus.  The theme and genre largely do not matter (since my preference is Dragonlance or Forgotten Realms, and I know I'm not getting that.)

    Edit - Yes, I have Minecraft.  That's a single player Rogue-like, not an MMO.



    Path of Exile is not my type.  Final Fantasy anything is not my type (as an MMO.  I like the single player RPGs.)  Had GW1, never played it after the first week.  Tried to get back into AO, EQ, EQ2, DDO, Vanguard, or Planetside in the past couple days, but none of them are really "sticking", and I think it's for the same reason.

    Let's make it simpler, then : None of the games above.  No WoW, no SWTOR.  People grouping in pick up groups AROUND THE CLOCK, players using the LFG tools available to them rather than spamming chat, and a preference toward groups that form first and decide what to try to do after.  Hell, if it even exists, a game that is impossible to progress solo would be fine.

    Edit - Small groups.  Not raids.  Waiting on account support to try Fallen Earth.



  • DesirsarDesirsar Member UncommonPosts: 116

    Fallen Earth wasn't it.  (In no small part due to their breaking of their own, mostly working crafting system.)  Hawken and MWO aren't really MMOs in the sense that I'm looking for, but I'm also still playing both of those.

    I'm still very put off of Neverwinter for not using 3.5 rules, but I'll probably try it anyway.  Is there anything left worth trying?  I found a site showing the subscription numbers for many games, and I'm surprised at which ones are large at all, and how small everything else really is.  I think my problem will always be that companies have found a way to make a profit in the diluted market, games aren't driven out of the market nearly fast enough if they aren't hugely successful, and so they don't aim for being the next WoW anymore, and the lack of effort and resources shows.

    Is it too much to ask for a game where fights are hard, and dying matters?  Where there is a good crafting system, or none at all and the game is so good you don't even notice?  Where the world is dynamic enough that people can't quote to you from memory the quest progression from start to cap?



    Presently spamming alts at Champions Online.  I get annoyed when the low level content is sparse and linear, because I like to try every type of character, and would prefer doing something different each time.  Now that I have six characters between 15 and 20, they're each doing totally different content, purely out of coincidence.  I'll be playing that until I run out of new things to shoot with lasers, punch, cast spells on, claw, blast, slice with swords...  yeah.

    Finding "that game" would still pull me away from it, of course.



    It's been six months, so I'll dig it back up and pretend I missed a game launch that suits me.

    Picked up Skyrim, played a billion characters, each to about two levels higher than the previous, but kept starting over.  I imagine I'll always have that problem with single player games that are not procedurally generated.  Rather than trying to take my favorite character through what the game throws at me, I try to take different character concepts through the same game.  (NWN2 problem all over again.)

    I love The Binding of Isaac and Rogue Legacy, for obvious reasons.  Shadowrun Returns is an awesome premise, but not my type of game.  Been spending most of my time in Planetside 2 and Football Superstars, because I just can't make myself play any RPGs.

    Maybe my ideal game has changed, though the sound of these things running through my head are probably pretty close to my posts so far in the thread.  The game need not include the entire list (that's asking too much), but as many as possible and not a game I've played before...

    Procedurally generated content deeper than "loot tables".

    Crafting system that matters.

    Skill based advancement rather than level based.

    Skill based character development rather than restrictive classes.

    Open world that gives a reason to explore, bigger the better.  Fast travel not required.

    PvP is undesirable, but when entirely optional (no character advancement from it), its presence is okay.  Exceptions to this for full time PvP games that are done well, but this is rare, and I still don't prefer it.

    Lots of players grouping frequently and in all level ranges.  Ideally, twinking would be prevented or minimized, or it should at least be possible to find people actually playing through the game as a character instead of trying to "beat" the game, especially when they consider their previous characters having done so as their reason to make alts.

    Neuromancer?  Tolkien?  Forgotten Realms?  Star Trek?  Theme really doesn't matter if its done well for what it is.

    Multiple ways to complete the same content.  I should be able to choose any style from Sam Fisher to Incredible Hulk and succeed if I use my skills correctly and have trained and equipped sufficiently.

    Edit - Tried Neverwinter Online.  Might as well have named it Champions Faerun, because Cryptic can't make any other game.  Good for super hero games, utter crap for fantasy.

    Also edit - I have an active SOE All Access subscription that only gets used for Planetside 2, and an active Champions Online subscription that rarely gets used.  I also subscribe to There.com, on principle.  Even if I never log in, it should not cease to exist.



  • DesirsarDesirsar Member UncommonPosts: 116

    Support?  I play rangers.  Range DPS and melee DPS and support and stealth.  Not always the best at each, plus a few toys unique to them.  That said, it's still all about the animal companions and the bows.  :)

    I own GW1, not seeing a reason to go back to that over Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights.  Hell, I'd rather try to find a decent, well populated MUD.

    Part of the problem with most games is not the fact that most or all classes can solo, it's what particular enemies they are able to solo.  A cleric should handle undead and demons, and not much else.  Magic users for other magic users or things not resistant to magic, fighters for fighters or things specifically resistant to magic.  Maybe a little more complexity to the rock-paper-scissors metaphor, but most types of enemies should be out of reach of most classes, and grouping would allow you to tackle some of the others.

    I definitely plan to try Everquest Next.  Most of my problem may go away within the next year anyway, as Ubisoft is poised to kick all genres squarely in the balls.  The Crew, The Division, and Rocksmith 2014?  I may actually not have time for Planetside 2, even.

    I will probably bump this thread forever, waiting patiently for games to go back to playing for the sake of playing, instead of playing to gain levels.  "Progress" should be a side effect of everything else in the game, not the reason for it.



    Like every year, it's getting to November or December and I am bored of what I've been doing, but haven't heard about anything I'd rather be doing...

    Currently playing 1-3 hours of Rocksmith 2014 a day.  I'm now better on bass than guitar and regularly smashing up people in the competitions.

    Still pretending Football Superstars isn't dying, but I play maybe one match per day on average.

    Still in my Planetside 2 outfit, but not nearly active enough compared to them.  (But it's still an option.) 

    I have an open invite back to my WoT clan, but haven't gotten around to trying to get back into it.

    Firefall has been pretty good, but it's not always as active as I'd like or as social as it could be for the size of world and repetitiveness of its content. 

    Gave up on Champions Online.  I get character ideas, but don't want to do the same *EVERYTHING* for each character up to level 15, maybe 20.  At least CoH had some options for progression. 

    I still have two EVE accounts active, and the "alt" is trained up to the point of being extremely useful, but I still don't actually do it. 

    Poked into Path of Exile...  meh, I'd rather buy Diablo 3.

    Tried SWTOR again, just couldn't stick with it.

    MWO is probably a year away from where I am willing to put time and money into it (clan mechs, Timber Wolf in particular.)

    I peeked back onto the site because of Darkfall UW, which looks stupid having played Darkfall before, and ended up looking into progression servers for EQ, which aren't interesting to me currently (and might never be.  Luclin plus LDoN skipping PoP would sell me.  Yes, locked, not actual progression.)

    So, after all of this, I'm willing to settle.  I already know my desire for procedural content is beyond the capacity of any game dev alive today, and beyond the budget of any publisher with executives willing to take risks.  All I ask is REAL flexibility in classes or skills (including the game's use of twitch), some people that actually group at low level (ideally, the game would force this), with a good number of those being people who play the game rather than glue their face to a window open to a spoiler site, and I don't care about genre or mechanics (although I will not play a game with cheesy stereotypical Asian art style.)  Does it exist and I haven't already tried it?



    Independently of the suggestion in this thread, I have purchased Starbound.   I get more play from Civ V, CCGs on my phone, and old Roguelikes.  It has all the elements I'm looking for except "3D RPG" or "MMO".

    Rust and Nether looked interesting, but the PvP issues could be glossed over - server size cannot.  I should state that "MMO" is emphasized over every other thing I ask for in this thread, if it wasn't enough that I state my disdain for instances of any kind.

    I'm on the mailing list for ToA, but their Kickstarter doesn't look like something I'd touch, for entirely different reasons I won't go near Star Citizen (and I'd put money that I'll never have the chance to, to go totally off topic.  :)  )  I did the Kickstarter for OGRE from Steve Jackson Games because I knew they'd finish the project even if they lost money at it.

    I will peek at the few other suggestions so far, as well as anything on the game list on the site that launched recently.  Since my last post, I've played Football Superstars maybe twice in as many weeks, and any reason I had to play it is largely dying off.  I've played Planetside 2 even less.  Rocksmith is still at least a daily thing, to the point that I'm now recording myself playing so people can see why I smash up their scores (and pretending that some local band will see them and decide they want me to join, of course!)



  • DesirsarDesirsar Member UncommonPosts: 116

    As much as I like many of the concepts introduced in ArcheAge, it has too many things that definitely put me off of paying to beta it early, and maybe enough to keep me from trying it at all.  I really, really do not like "second hand" MMOs, where it is licensed in my region, usually behind its native region by some months, and little or no feedback from my region's players actually reach the developers or have an impact on design.  Also, why ruin a great leveling and "class" concept by allowing unlimited switching in real time.  Travel back to a hometown each time you want to switch?  I could have lived with that.  Just seems like they're talking a novel combination of features that exist in other games, but not fully implementing any of them.

    Wildstar is right out.  I got maybe to level 4 and uninstalled it between vomit bags.

    Still mostly looking for D&D style stat systems or classes systems like you'd find in Diku MUDs where having more abilities makes it take longer to level.  As much procedural generation as possible, as open world as possible (few or no instances), and meaningful crafting.

    Would settle for a game where people still play it, together, from level 1 to whatever.  If they're selling a service of leveling a character to "catch up" to the game's content, it is probably not going to be my choice.


    Played, won't go back : AoC, ArcheAge, AC, AC2, Darkfall, FE, Firefall, GW, Lineage, Lineage 2, PWI, Rift, Silkroad, SWTOR, TERA, WoW.

    Played, would consider with a massive change in development focus or influx of players, etc : AO, CO, DDO, EVE, EQ, EQ2, LOTRO, MWO, PS2, Puzzle Pirates.

    Vetoed, either due to my beta experience, reviews, or gameplay video : DAoC, The Crew, TSW, ESO.

    I still play Football Superstars, but it has a distinct lack of stabbing or quests (or development.)  I still randomly play MWO or PS2, but it doesn't take enough of my time.

    Short version : *HUGE* open world, classless, levelless, PvE oriented, highly functional crafting, no instances if possible, some static quests and dungeons (or thematic equivalent), many procedural dungeons, grouping positively encouraged a lot, negatively encouraged if necessary (I don't consider the game being hard in this category if this isn't the reason it's hard), expansive lore.  Shooters are also acceptable, genre and theme don't largely matter.


    Did Darkfall, joined one of the most powerful guilds on the server.  They were very helpful, defending our holdings was interesting, and my FPS and artillery game experience helped tremendously at archery.  Forced onto a bad wifi connection, Darkfall doesn't handle latency at all (not just "poorly", if you drop packets ever, you might as well not even try to play), and I stopped to save the money and until I could get my proper connection back.

    Gave Asheron's Call a try, but it's dead at the low levels and starting town.  If I wanted to have to solo to catch the high level population just to find people who are grouping at a given level range, I'd go bore myself with WoW.

    Looking for a new game (or not new) again, decided it wasn't quite what I was looking for, so here I am back at this thread, bumping for great justice.

    Emphasis this time :  People always on.  Lots of people.  Not just the top-heavy hardcore population.  Always someone to group with at all levels.  Game design allows for soloing, but people will actually WANT to group at all levels (either because the game is hard or because they give bonus XP or soemthing else mechanical.)  Large world.  Questy bits that actually take some thought from the player.  Randomish monster spawns and dungeons (procedurally generated games are awesome - see roguelikes or Spelunky.)  Player crafted items are very functional, yet rare (scarce?  To use an economics term), and crafting does not have a painful interface.  Classless and levelless a plus.  Experience should be based on how much time is spent actively playing the game, and a "busy" and effective new player *will* make significant strides on a complacent veteran.  (Does it sound like that that one explicitly excludes EVE?  It is meant to.)  Genre is unimportant, but can't be outright silly.

    Most of all, the game must look like it was published by a competent company with a decent sized staff, preferably who knows how to test their own game for bugs without basically beta testing on the end user.  Graphics aren't a big deal (my Atari 2600 is still hooked up to my TV right now), but they are one sign that the game is well designed.

    Yes, I know I ask too much, but I am really getting sick of making new characters or parties in Neverwinter Nights 2, or having to always fall back to roguelikes (Incursion and ADoM, mostly.)



  • DesirsarDesirsar Member UncommonPosts: 116
    Let's try two years later...  out of college, have a job.  Only things that hold my attention or interest for long are World of Tanks and Football Superstars.  I maintain my Station Pass or All Access or whatever they call it this week, but I rarely use it.  I have an active EVE account and There.com account as well.  I still play Neverwinter Nights 2 weekly, trying random character classes and races and trying to do anything with the storyline I haven't (there really isn't anything left, I have every bit of voice acting from the first act of the first campaign memorized.)

    Does my game exist yet?  Sandbox, procedurally generated inside a persistant world (instancing at a minimum), deep crafting, player economy, skills instead of levels is a plus, PvP can exist but PvE should be the focus.  The theme and genre largely do not matter (since my preference is Dragonlance or Forgotten Realms, and I know I'm not getting that.)

    Edit - Yes, I have Minecraft.  That's a single player Rogue-like, not an MMO.



    Path of Exile is not my type.  Final Fantasy anything is not my type (as an MMO.  I like the single player RPGs.)  Had GW1, never played it after the first week.  Tried to get back into AO, EQ, EQ2, DDO, Vanguard, or Planetside in the past couple days, but none of them are really "sticking", and I think it's for the same reason.

    Let's make it simpler, then : None of the games above.  No WoW, no SWTOR.  People grouping in pick up groups AROUND THE CLOCK, players using the LFG tools available to them rather than spamming chat, and a preference toward groups that form first and decide what to try to do after.  Hell, if it even exists, a game that is impossible to progress solo would be fine.

    Edit - Small groups.  Not raids.  Waiting on account support to try Fallen Earth.



    Fallen Earth wasn't it.  (In no small part due to their breaking of their own, mostly working crafting system.)  Hawken and MWO aren't really MMOs in the sense that I'm looking for, but I'm also still playing both of those.

    I'm still very put off of Neverwinter for not using 3.5 rules, but I'll probably try it anyway.  Is there anything left worth trying?  I found a site showing the subscription numbers for many games, and I'm surprised at which ones are large at all, and how small everything else really is.  I think my problem will always be that companies have found a way to make a profit in the diluted market, games aren't driven out of the market nearly fast enough if they aren't hugely successful, and so they don't aim for being the next WoW anymore, and the lack of effort and resources shows.

    Is it too much to ask for a game where fights are hard, and dying matters?  Where there is a good crafting system, or none at all and the game is so good you don't even notice?  Where the world is dynamic enough that people can't quote to you from memory the quest progression from start to cap?



    Presently spamming alts at Champions Online.  I get annoyed when the low level content is sparse and linear, because I like to try every type of character, and would prefer doing something different each time.  Now that I have six characters between 15 and 20, they're each doing totally different content, purely out of coincidence.  I'll be playing that until I run out of new things to shoot with lasers, punch, cast spells on, claw, blast, slice with swords...  yeah.

    Finding "that game" would still pull me away from it, of course.



    It's been six months, so I'll dig it back up and pretend I missed a game launch that suits me.

    Picked up Skyrim, played a billion characters, each to about two levels higher than the previous, but kept starting over.  I imagine I'll always have that problem with single player games that are not procedurally generated.  Rather than trying to take my favorite character through what the game throws at me, I try to take different character concepts through the same game.  (NWN2 problem all over again.)

    I love The Binding of Isaac and Rogue Legacy, for obvious reasons.  Shadowrun Returns is an awesome premise, but not my type of game.  Been spending most of my time in Planetside 2 and Football Superstars, because I just can't make myself play any RPGs.

    Maybe my ideal game has changed, though the sound of these things running through my head are probably pretty close to my posts so far in the thread.  The game need not include the entire list (that's asking too much), but as many as possible and not a game I've played before...

    Procedurally generated content deeper than "loot tables".

    Crafting system that matters.

    Skill based advancement rather than level based.

    Skill based character development rather than restrictive classes.

    Open world that gives a reason to explore, bigger the better.  Fast travel not required.

    PvP is undesirable, but when entirely optional (no character advancement from it), its presence is okay.  Exceptions to this for full time PvP games that are done well, but this is rare, and I still don't prefer it.

    Lots of players grouping frequently and in all level ranges.  Ideally, twinking would be prevented or minimized, or it should at least be possible to find people actually playing through the game as a character instead of trying to "beat" the game, especially when they consider their previous characters having done so as their reason to make alts.

    Neuromancer?  Tolkien?  Forgotten Realms?  Star Trek?  Theme really doesn't matter if its done well for what it is.

    Multiple ways to complete the same content.  I should be able to choose any style from Sam Fisher to Incredible Hulk and succeed if I use my skills correctly and have trained and equipped sufficiently.

    Edit - Tried Neverwinter Online.  Might as well have named it Champions Faerun, because Cryptic can't make any other game.  Good for super hero games, utter crap for fantasy.

    Also edit - I have an active SOE All Access subscription that only gets used for Planetside 2, and an active Champions Online subscription that rarely gets used.  I also subscribe to There.com, on principle.  Even if I never log in, it should not cease to exist.




  • DesirsarDesirsar Member UncommonPosts: 116
    Support?  I play rangers.  Range DPS and melee DPS and support and stealth.  Not always the best at each, plus a few toys unique to them.  That said, it's still all about the animal companions and the bows.  :)

    I own GW1, not seeing a reason to go back to that over Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights.  Hell, I'd rather try to find a decent, well populated MUD.

    Part of the problem with most games is not the fact that most or all classes can solo, it's what particular enemies they are able to solo.  A cleric should handle undead and demons, and not much else.  Magic users for other magic users or things not resistant to magic, fighters for fighters or things specifically resistant to magic.  Maybe a little more complexity to the rock-paper-scissors metaphor, but most types of enemies should be out of reach of most classes, and grouping would allow you to tackle some of the others.

    I definitely plan to try Everquest Next.  Most of my problem may go away within the next year anyway, as Ubisoft is poised to kick all genres squarely in the balls.  The Crew, The Division, and Rocksmith 2014?  I may actually not have time for Planetside 2, even.

    I will probably bump this thread forever, waiting patiently for games to go back to playing for the sake of playing, instead of playing to gain levels.  "Progress" should be a side effect of everything else in the game, not the reason for it.



    Like every year, it's getting to November or December and I am bored of what I've been doing, but haven't heard about anything I'd rather be doing...

    Currently playing 1-3 hours of Rocksmith 2014 a day.  I'm now better on bass than guitar and regularly smashing up people in the competitions.

    Still pretending Football Superstars isn't dying, but I play maybe one match per day on average.

    Still in my Planetside 2 outfit, but not nearly active enough compared to them.  (But it's still an option.) 

    I have an open invite back to my WoT clan, but haven't gotten around to trying to get back into it.

    Firefall has been pretty good, but it's not always as active as I'd like or as social as it could be for the size of world and repetitiveness of its content. 

    Gave up on Champions Online.  I get character ideas, but don't want to do the same *EVERYTHING* for each character up to level 15, maybe 20.  At least CoH had some options for progression. 

    I still have two EVE accounts active, and the "alt" is trained up to the point of being extremely useful, but I still don't actually do it. 

    Poked into Path of Exile...  meh, I'd rather buy Diablo 3.

    Tried SWTOR again, just couldn't stick with it.

    MWO is probably a year away from where I am willing to put time and money into it (clan mechs, Timber Wolf in particular.)

    I peeked back onto the site because of Darkfall UW, which looks stupid having played Darkfall before, and ended up looking into progression servers for EQ, which aren't interesting to me currently (and might never be.  Luclin plus LDoN skipping PoP would sell me.  Yes, locked, not actual progression.)

    So, after all of this, I'm willing to settle.  I already know my desire for procedural content is beyond the capacity of any game dev alive today, and beyond the budget of any publisher with executives willing to take risks.  All I ask is REAL flexibility in classes or skills (including the game's use of twitch), some people that actually group at low level (ideally, the game would force this), with a good number of those being people who play the game rather than glue their face to a window open to a spoiler site, and I don't care about genre or mechanics (although I will not play a game with cheesy stereotypical Asian art style.)  Does it exist and I haven't already tried it?



    Independently of the suggestion in this thread, I have purchased Starbound.   I get more play from Civ V, CCGs on my phone, and old Roguelikes.  It has all the elements I'm looking for except "3D RPG" or "MMO".

    Rust and Nether looked interesting, but the PvP issues could be glossed over - server size cannot.  I should state that "MMO" is emphasized over every other thing I ask for in this thread, if it wasn't enough that I state my disdain for instances of any kind.

    I'm on the mailing list for ToA, but their Kickstarter doesn't look like something I'd touch, for entirely different reasons I won't go near Star Citizen (and I'd put money that I'll never have the chance to, to go totally off topic.  :)  )  I did the Kickstarter for OGRE from Steve Jackson Games because I knew they'd finish the project even if they lost money at it.

    I will peek at the few other suggestions so far, as well as anything on the game list on the site that launched recently.  Since my last post, I've played Football Superstars maybe twice in as many weeks, and any reason I had to play it is largely dying off.  I've played Planetside 2 even less.  Rocksmith is still at least a daily thing, to the point that I'm now recording myself playing so people can see why I smash up their scores (and pretending that some local band will see them and decide they want me to join, of course!)



    As much as I like many of the concepts introduced in ArcheAge, it has too many things that definitely put me off of paying to beta it early, and maybe enough to keep me from trying it at all.  I really, really do not like "second hand" MMOs, where it is licensed in my region, usually behind its native region by some months, and little or no feedback from my region's players actually reach the developers or have an impact on design.  Also, why ruin a great leveling and "class" concept by allowing unlimited switching in real time.  Travel back to a hometown each time you want to switch?  I could have lived with that.  Just seems like they're talking a novel combination of features that exist in other games, but not fully implementing any of them.

    Wildstar is right out.  I got maybe to level 4 and uninstalled it between vomit bags.

    Still mostly looking for D&D style stat systems or classes systems like you'd find in Diku MUDs where having more abilities makes it take longer to level.  As much procedural generation as possible, as open world as possible (few or no instances), and meaningful crafting.

    Would settle for a game where people still play it, together, from level 1 to whatever.  If they're selling a service of leveling a character to "catch up" to the game's content, it is probably not going to be my choice.


  • DesirsarDesirsar Member UncommonPosts: 116
    Played, won't go back : AoC, ArcheAge, AC, AC2, Darkfall, FE, Firefall, GW, Lineage, Lineage 2, PWI, Rift, Silkroad, SWTOR, TERA, WoW.

    Played, would consider with a massive change in development focus or influx of players, etc : AO, CO, DDO, EVE, EQ, EQ2, LOTRO, MWO, PS2, Puzzle Pirates.

    Vetoed, either due to my beta experience, reviews, or gameplay video : DAoC, The Crew, TSW, ESO.

    I still play Football Superstars, but it has a distinct lack of stabbing or quests (or development.)  I still randomly play MWO or PS2, but it doesn't take enough of my time.

    Short version : *HUGE* open world, classless, levelless, PvE oriented, highly functional crafting, no instances if possible, some static quests and dungeons (or thematic equivalent), many procedural dungeons, grouping positively encouraged a lot, negatively encouraged if necessary (I don't consider the game being hard in this category if this isn't the reason it's hard), expansive lore.  Shooters are also acceptable, genre and theme don't largely matter.


    Did Darkfall, joined one of the most powerful guilds on the server.  They were very helpful, defending our holdings was interesting, and my FPS and artillery game experience helped tremendously at archery.  Forced onto a bad wifi connection, Darkfall doesn't handle latency at all (not just "poorly", if you drop packets ever, you might as well not even try to play), and I stopped to save the money and until I could get my proper connection back.

    Gave Asheron's Call a try, but it's dead at the low levels and starting town.  If I wanted to have to solo to catch the high level population just to find people who are grouping at a given level range, I'd go bore myself with WoW.

    Looking for a new game (or not new) again, decided it wasn't quite what I was looking for, so here I am back at this thread, bumping for great justice.

    Emphasis this time :  People always on.  Lots of people.  Not just the top-heavy hardcore population.  Always someone to group with at all levels.  Game design allows for soloing, but people will actually WANT to group at all levels (either because the game is hard or because they give bonus XP or soemthing else mechanical.)  Large world.  Questy bits that actually take some thought from the player.  Randomish monster spawns and dungeons (procedurally generated games are awesome - see roguelikes or Spelunky.)  Player crafted items are very functional, yet rare (scarce?  To use an economics term), and crafting does not have a painful interface.  Classless and levelless a plus.  Experience should be based on how much time is spent actively playing the game, and a "busy" and effective new player *will* make significant strides on a complacent veteran.  (Does it sound like that that one explicitly excludes EVE?  It is meant to.)  Genre is unimportant, but can't be outright silly.

    Most of all, the game must look like it was published by a competent company with a decent sized staff, preferably who knows how to test their own game for bugs without basically beta testing on the end user.  Graphics aren't a big deal (my Atari 2600 is still hooked up to my TV right now), but they are one sign that the game is well designed.

    Yes, I know I ask too much, but I am really getting sick of making new characters or parties in Neverwinter Nights 2, or having to always fall back to roguelikes (Incursion and ADoM, mostly.)



    Let's try two years later...  out of college, have a job.  Only things that hold my attention or interest for long are World of Tanks and Football Superstars.  I maintain my Station Pass or All Access or whatever they call it this week, but I rarely use it.  I have an active EVE account and There.com account as well.  I still play Neverwinter Nights 2 weekly, trying random character classes and races and trying to do anything with the storyline I haven't (there really isn't anything left, I have every bit of voice acting from the first act of the first campaign memorized.)

    Does my game exist yet?  Sandbox, procedurally generated inside a persistant world (instancing at a minimum), deep crafting, player economy, skills instead of levels is a plus, PvP can exist but PvE should be the focus.  The theme and genre largely do not matter (since my preference is Dragonlance or Forgotten Realms, and I know I'm not getting that.)

    Edit - Yes, I have Minecraft.  That's a single player Rogue-like, not an MMO.



    Path of Exile is not my type.  Final Fantasy anything is not my type (as an MMO.  I like the single player RPGs.)  Had GW1, never played it after the first week.  Tried to get back into AO, EQ, EQ2, DDO, Vanguard, or Planetside in the past couple days, but none of them are really "sticking", and I think it's for the same reason.

    Let's make it simpler, then : None of the games above.  No WoW, no SWTOR.  People grouping in pick up groups AROUND THE CLOCK, players using the LFG tools available to them rather than spamming chat, and a preference toward groups that form first and decide what to try to do after.  Hell, if it even exists, a game that is impossible to progress solo would be fine.

    Edit - Small groups.  Not raids.  Waiting on account support to try Fallen Earth.



    Fallen Earth wasn't it.  (In no small part due to their breaking of their own, mostly working crafting system.)  Hawken and MWO aren't really MMOs in the sense that I'm looking for, but I'm also still playing both of those.

    I'm still very put off of Neverwinter for not using 3.5 rules, but I'll probably try it anyway.  Is there anything left worth trying?  I found a site showing the subscription numbers for many games, and I'm surprised at which ones are large at all, and how small everything else really is.  I think my problem will always be that companies have found a way to make a profit in the diluted market, games aren't driven out of the market nearly fast enough if they aren't hugely successful, and so they don't aim for being the next WoW anymore, and the lack of effort and resources shows.

    Is it too much to ask for a game where fights are hard, and dying matters?  Where there is a good crafting system, or none at all and the game is so good you don't even notice?  Where the world is dynamic enough that people can't quote to you from memory the quest progression from start to cap?



  • DesirsarDesirsar Member UncommonPosts: 116
    Presently spamming alts at Champions Online.  I get annoyed when the low level content is sparse and linear, because I like to try every type of character, and would prefer doing something different each time.  Now that I have six characters between 15 and 20, they're each doing totally different content, purely out of coincidence.  I'll be playing that until I run out of new things to shoot with lasers, punch, cast spells on, claw, blast, slice with swords...  yeah.

    Finding "that game" would still pull me away from it, of course.



    It's been six months, so I'll dig it back up and pretend I missed a game launch that suits me.

    Picked up Skyrim, played a billion characters, each to about two levels higher than the previous, but kept starting over.  I imagine I'll always have that problem with single player games that are not procedurally generated.  Rather than trying to take my favorite character through what the game throws at me, I try to take different character concepts through the same game.  (NWN2 problem all over again.)

    I love The Binding of Isaac and Rogue Legacy, for obvious reasons.  Shadowrun Returns is an awesome premise, but not my type of game.  Been spending most of my time in Planetside 2 and Football Superstars, because I just can't make myself play any RPGs.

    Maybe my ideal game has changed, though the sound of these things running through my head are probably pretty close to my posts so far in the thread.  The game need not include the entire list (that's asking too much), but as many as possible and not a game I've played before...

    Procedurally generated content deeper than "loot tables".

    Crafting system that matters.

    Skill based advancement rather than level based.

    Skill based character development rather than restrictive classes.

    Open world that gives a reason to explore, bigger the better.  Fast travel not required.

    PvP is undesirable, but when entirely optional (no character advancement from it), its presence is okay.  Exceptions to this for full time PvP games that are done well, but this is rare, and I still don't prefer it.

    Lots of players grouping frequently and in all level ranges.  Ideally, twinking would be prevented or minimized, or it should at least be possible to find people actually playing through the game as a character instead of trying to "beat" the game, especially when they consider their previous characters having done so as their reason to make alts.

    Neuromancer?  Tolkien?  Forgotten Realms?  Star Trek?  Theme really doesn't matter if its done well for what it is.

    Multiple ways to complete the same content.  I should be able to choose any style from Sam Fisher to Incredible Hulk and succeed if I use my skills correctly and have trained and equipped sufficiently.

    Edit - Tried Neverwinter Online.  Might as well have named it Champions Faerun, because Cryptic can't make any other game.  Good for super hero games, utter crap for fantasy.

    Also edit - I have an active SOE All Access subscription that only gets used for Planetside 2, and an active Champions Online subscription that rarely gets used.  I also subscribe to There.com, on principle.  Even if I never log in, it should not cease to exist.



    Support?  I play rangers.  Range DPS and melee DPS and support and stealth.  Not always the best at each, plus a few toys unique to them.  That said, it's still all about the animal companions and the bows.  :)

    I own GW1, not seeing a reason to go back to that over Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter Nights.  Hell, I'd rather try to find a decent, well populated MUD.

    Part of the problem with most games is not the fact that most or all classes can solo, it's what particular enemies they are able to solo.  A cleric should handle undead and demons, and not much else.  Magic users for other magic users or things not resistant to magic, fighters for fighters or things specifically resistant to magic.  Maybe a little more complexity to the rock-paper-scissors metaphor, but most types of enemies should be out of reach of most classes, and grouping would allow you to tackle some of the others.

    I definitely plan to try Everquest Next.  Most of my problem may go away within the next year anyway, as Ubisoft is poised to kick all genres squarely in the balls.  The Crew, The Division, and Rocksmith 2014?  I may actually not have time for Planetside 2, even.

    I will probably bump this thread forever, waiting patiently for games to go back to playing for the sake of playing, instead of playing to gain levels.  "Progress" should be a side effect of everything else in the game, not the reason for it.



    Like every year, it's getting to November or December and I am bored of what I've been doing, but haven't heard about anything I'd rather be doing...

    Currently playing 1-3 hours of Rocksmith 2014 a day.  I'm now better on bass than guitar and regularly smashing up people in the competitions.

    Still pretending Football Superstars isn't dying, but I play maybe one match per day on average.

    Still in my Planetside 2 outfit, but not nearly active enough compared to them.  (But it's still an option.) 

    I have an open invite back to my WoT clan, but haven't gotten around to trying to get back into it.

    Firefall has been pretty good, but it's not always as active as I'd like or as social as it could be for the size of world and repetitiveness of its content. 

    Gave up on Champions Online.  I get character ideas, but don't want to do the same *EVERYTHING* for each character up to level 15, maybe 20.  At least CoH had some options for progression. 

    I still have two EVE accounts active, and the "alt" is trained up to the point of being extremely useful, but I still don't actually do it. 

    Poked into Path of Exile...  meh, I'd rather buy Diablo 3.

    Tried SWTOR again, just couldn't stick with it.

    MWO is probably a year away from where I am willing to put time and money into it (clan mechs, Timber Wolf in particular.)

    I peeked back onto the site because of Darkfall UW, which looks stupid having played Darkfall before, and ended up looking into progression servers for EQ, which aren't interesting to me currently (and might never be.  Luclin plus LDoN skipping PoP would sell me.  Yes, locked, not actual progression.)

    So, after all of this, I'm willing to settle.  I already know my desire for procedural content is beyond the capacity of any game dev alive today, and beyond the budget of any publisher with executives willing to take risks.  All I ask is REAL flexibility in classes or skills (including the game's use of twitch), some people that actually group at low level (ideally, the game would force this), with a good number of those being people who play the game rather than glue their face to a window open to a spoiler site, and I don't care about genre or mechanics (although I will not play a game with cheesy stereotypical Asian art style.)  Does it exist and I haven't already tried it?



  • DesirsarDesirsar Member UncommonPosts: 116

    Independently of the suggestion in this thread, I have purchased Starbound.   I get more play from Civ V, CCGs on my phone, and old Roguelikes.  It has all the elements I'm looking for except "3D RPG" or "MMO".

    Rust and Nether looked interesting, but the PvP issues could be glossed over - server size cannot.  I should state that "MMO" is emphasized over every other thing I ask for in this thread, if it wasn't enough that I state my disdain for instances of any kind.

    I'm on the mailing list for ToA, but their Kickstarter doesn't look like something I'd touch, for entirely different reasons I won't go near Star Citizen (and I'd put money that I'll never have the chance to, to go totally off topic.  :)  )  I did the Kickstarter for OGRE from Steve Jackson Games because I knew they'd finish the project even if they lost money at it.

    I will peek at the few other suggestions so far, as well as anything on the game list on the site that launched recently.  Since my last post, I've played Football Superstars maybe twice in as many weeks, and any reason I had to play it is largely dying off.  I've played Planetside 2 even less.  Rocksmith is still at least a daily thing, to the point that I'm now recording myself playing so people can see why I smash up their scores (and pretending that some local band will see them and decide they want me to join, of course!)



    As much as I like many of the concepts introduced in ArcheAge, it has too many things that definitely put me off of paying to beta it early, and maybe enough to keep me from trying it at all.  I really, really do not like "second hand" MMOs, where it is licensed in my region, usually behind its native region by some months, and little or no feedback from my region's players actually reach the developers or have an impact on design.  Also, why ruin a great leveling and "class" concept by allowing unlimited switching in real time.  Travel back to a hometown each time you want to switch?  I could have lived with that.  Just seems like they're talking a novel combination of features that exist in other games, but not fully implementing any of them.

    Wildstar is right out.  I got maybe to level 4 and uninstalled it between vomit bags.

    Still mostly looking for D&D style stat systems or classes systems like you'd find in Diku MUDs where having more abilities makes it take longer to level.  As much procedural generation as possible, as open world as possible (few or no instances), and meaningful crafting.

    Would settle for a game where people still play it, together, from level 1 to whatever.  If they're selling a service of leveling a character to "catch up" to the game's content, it is probably not going to be my choice.


    Played, won't go back : AoC, ArcheAge, AC, AC2, Darkfall, FE, Firefall, GW, Lineage, Lineage 2, PWI, Rift, Silkroad, SWTOR, TERA, WoW.

    Played, would consider with a massive change in development focus or influx of players, etc : AO, CO, DDO, EVE, EQ, EQ2, LOTRO, MWO, PS2, Puzzle Pirates.

    Vetoed, either due to my beta experience, reviews, or gameplay video : DAoC, The Crew, TSW, ESO.

    I still play Football Superstars, but it has a distinct lack of stabbing or quests (or development.)  I still randomly play MWO or PS2, but it doesn't take enough of my time.

    Short version : *HUGE* open world, classless, levelless, PvE oriented, highly functional crafting, no instances if possible, some static quests and dungeons (or thematic equivalent), many procedural dungeons, grouping positively encouraged a lot, negatively encouraged if necessary (I don't consider the game being hard in this category if this isn't the reason it's hard), expansive lore.  Shooters are also acceptable, genre and theme don't largely matter.


  • DesirsarDesirsar Member UncommonPosts: 116
    Oof.  Not my fault they lowered the post length limit.

    The only thing I come back to regularly lately is Fallout 4 (because I haven't finished it yet) and Rocket League (because yeah.  Cars and soccer.  Rockets are just a bonus.)
  • esc-joconnoresc-joconnor Member RarePosts: 1,097
    Wow (as in shock and amazement, not the game) I think I agree on a lot of stuff, but that is the wall of text from the lower planes! WTL:DRIA (Way to long, didn't read it all)
    I think the solution for end game vs leveling is not to have an end game.
  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 3,348
    Jesus...
  • DesirsarDesirsar Member UncommonPosts: 116
    Wow (as in shock and amazement, not the game) I think I agree on a lot of stuff, but that is the wall of text from the lower planes! WTL:DRIA (Way to long, didn't read it all)
    I think the solution for end game vs leveling is not to have an end game.
    If you could design a game that the "end game" never actually felt like it, it was just "the highest stuff available until the expansion comes out", sure.

    Honestly, that part doesn't bother me.  I could go back to any of the games I played before and liked if there were actually people, a lot of them, around my level to group with.  Instead, the games give some insane amount of XP and rush you up to the level cap, which is not why I'm playing the game.  I want to play with other people, yeah, but I want to play the whole game, from the beginning.
  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,292
    Good Luck...
  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,061
    Long Post of 2016

    I'd say Eve off the cuff is the only thing I can think of that hits your points in the first post, but you say you've already played it so I don't know... I think your F'd
  • kashogikashogi Member UncommonPosts: 8
    Personally I think you're being silly and unrealistic. Try lowering your graphics settings on your imagination, cause reality can't handle it.
  • DesirsarDesirsar Member UncommonPosts: 116
    Ridelynn said:
    Long Post of 2016

    I'd say Eve off the cuff is the only thing I can think of that hits your points in the first post, but you say you've already played it so I don't know... I think your F'd
    EVE actually has the wrong kind of "slow leveling".  I absolutely do not want a game where character development is tied to real time.  Playing more should mean advancing faster, but it still should not be fast.  Classic Everquest is the best example of this - you could probably progress through any given level in a couple days if you did nothing but play (no sleeping!), but you'd still get there playing casually, and it always felt like a real accomplishment.

    As a side effect, it sandwiches more players into the lower end of a game rather than the high end.  Even EQ itself acknowledged it - at some point when the level cap was 70, they released some statistics that the average active character was still only level 45, but even with that they couldn't convince the guys in the suits to let them develop anything but new end game content.
  • hardsun79hardsun79 Member UncommonPosts: 66
    EVE online do it ok - play active, earn capital, buy older more develooped character (they are going to implement skill trading between players) = progress faster via playing more.

    Also Haven and Hearth - low population but with very deep and copmplex crafting and pve. And permadeath pvp :fearful:

    Otherwise i would agree with people telling you dream too much hehe...

    ps: probably Crowfall or Chronicles of Elyria(especially this one at least on paper - read game blogs)  will be close to what you are looking for ... but its not sooner then late 2016-2017.
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,967
    Lineage 2, the longest leveling curve I've ever enjoyed playing.  Open world PvP keeps you on your toes but most of the time you're left alone to grind out levels.  Aion was enjoyable also.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,377
    Project Gorgon

  • GestankfaustGestankfaust Member UncommonPosts: 1,989
    Desirsar said:
    Oof.  Not my fault they lowered the post length limit.
    Yer fired from posting

    "This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."

  • ArChWindArChWind Member UncommonPosts: 1,323
    I'm not being a dick but I think you should quit gaming. It looks like none appeal to you. There is a great variety of games you have played and lost interest in so it may be you.
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