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Crafted Prey - Camelot Unchained Column
SBFord
Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
Crafted Prey - Camelot Unchained Column
Before I say anything about crafters I wanted to let the screenshot below sink in. That is a thick forest (an area specifically meant to push the system) with hundreds of players and bots (bots that were designed to be even more resource-intensive than an average player) battling it out in a game in Alpha that isn’t crashing.
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21 year MMO veteran
PvP Raid Leader
Lover of The Witcher & CD Projekt Red
The fact that GATHERING is the best way to make money, and if anything this video might make the gatherers say that it should because theyre facing the greatest risk. So in a vacuum this game is going to be the same over hyped lack of delivery for actual CRAFTING and still making the gatherers the guys getting rich.
As for the first paragraph of the article, I would hope the server wouldnt crap out because the graphics are horrendous, hopefully by design, but if it is by design then it obviously skews the 'test' because if graphics are (hopefully) going to improve (greatly) then running a test like this in almost useless. But it surely makes for a good story and hype.
If it seems I am being (overly) cynical I am simply because I have seen dozens of these games all promise us everything only to fail miserably in the implementation of them.
Besides all kinds of "average" stuff (you know, typical bland and "basic" combat from the pre-CU era, soon to be forgotten forever and replaced by next gen stuff we are witnessing here), all kinds of collision also have to be calculated and re-calculated dozens of times per second, between thousands of objects.
I have in mind collision of players vs players vs trees vs spells vs spells (2x spells is not a typo - the A.I.R. makes spells collide, furthermore in complicated ways that further affect the whole mess...) vs buildings (or thousands of their pieces - these are moveable/destructable as well) vs, say, spirit pets (also spells, A.I.R., yadda...) which will extremely stress the engine in big fights.
For example, the way I understood it from those pyramidal vines and comments (say, July 28th Vine), even a static building (stable, receiving zero damage) puts pressure on engine, since in CU buildings are not "usual" boring, soon-to-be-extinct-and-forgotten ones you might remember from the pre-CU era, but rather thousands of blocks connected to pressure/gravity and whatnot.
If gathering materials is difficult and/or rare, then the overall availability will be less. Which then causes the price of materials to go up, which makes crafting far more expensive. Then depending on how much "cash" is available via the market, your profit margin from the actual craft will vary greatly. If you're looking at a 5% return or so, you may not be able to sustain your craft. If you're looking at a 25%+ return, then the overall customer base will most likely be significantly smaller.
Of course, if the market can be flooded with materials, then crafting becomes inexpensive. Gatherers can make profits via quantity. Crafters then face the problem of tons of competition and/or lack of customer base if everyone else is crafting. Crafters might be able to profit through quantity, unless items become super common and you're selling for near cost or even below just to move some of the items from your inventory.
Those are the two main scenarios I've seen happen over the last 16ish years of mmorpg gaming. Sure, there are always those who can turn massive profits, but they also tend to corner the market, which is bad for your casual crafter.
The server has nothing to do with the graphics that's what your graphic card is for. Even if the game used 4k textures and 10mio poly models then it would run the same on the server. It might slow down your PC a bit but it's your fault for not having 3+ Fury X cards
So don't worry they will up the graphic and it won't affect the server.
@TimothyTierless (and others that touched upon this), I assume that their recent 3k+ test was likely done without lots of elements I mentioned (naked models, barren terrain etc. I guess?), while the 600+ one from the recent video had models with varying pieces of armor, new alpha ambient (forest) and whatnot. OFC there was no building/destruction...
What I gathered from Andrew's comments in the first video is that he seems pretty confident about being able to, in the end, optimize the engine for 500-600+ when the game is done (I assume it was post-launch, with all the elements...what else?).
He also mentioned that the actual aim (thou 100% unofficial / unpromised) is 1k+ ; Again, from the context - I assume full gear/effects/destruction that is - post launch.
Of course, this is all IMO rather speculative without series of massive siege/destruction tests, which we will likely see at some point mid/late beta!?
PS I am actually quite optimistic about CSE's tech performance; What I am MUCH more curious about are animations in general and, especially, combat and it's intuitiveness, smoothness and overall feel. Not to say it'll be bad, just we haven't seen much of it so far (and those pre-alpha animations...yikes...).
This is the only mmorpg on my radar. I think the masterminds here actually know what people like myself want, the screen cap and crafting detail is quite pleasant to hear and see coming to fruition. I think epic good times are still ahead.
Same here, there's nothing around now or coming in the near future that holds any interest for me at all, apart from CU.
The MMO genre is thriving indeed. If you like mediocrity or games that aren't really MMO's at all. It's nice to see a real MMO in development.
TimothyTierless said:
The economics of the supply chain are interesting, but also quite over my head. That said I think its early to jump to that conclusion. The market could be impacted by a number of factors that we haven't yet learned of or considered. If the crafter or the gatherer gains more wealth has yet to be determined and I don't see how you came to your conclusion based on what we currently know.
...
Historically speaking, gathering typically nets you far more wealth than actual crafting. This has held true for quite a long time across many games. The problem is that the upfront cost of gathering is typically significantly less than that of the actual craft. There is also no end result to obtain via gathering, you're just simply gathering materials as you go about your normal routine.
If gathering materials is difficult and/or rare, then the overall availability will be less. ...
I've seen in numerous games where the costs to purchase the gathered materials to create an item will far exceed the salable price for the crafted item in almost all circumstances. This tends to cause many, if not most, active crafters to have a stable of alts just for gathering purposes.
Though I have seen crafters that use guild supplied materials, and there are the dabblers that buy auction stuff to make the few items they occasionally craft.
But for some reason there are still some people with absurdly deep pockets that will pay stupid prices for resources, and I've had in games a 10th level crafter with more cash than all 5 of my other 30+ level characters combined because of PC-Moneybaggers. Yet I still do crafting because for me, the gathering is boring, while the crafting is some kind of accomplishment in some small way. (It sure isn't because of the virtually non-existent profits.)
Lost my mind, now trying to lose yours...
I am sure we will not see highly stylized animations but rather heavy emphasis on what we see is what happens in the game. Hopefully it has a good balance between looks and function.
Improved animations are only just slowly entering the current build only IT testers get to see.
The only Alpha build test of CUBE I am aware of is CSE slapping in a crap ton of high brick count pyramids in game and the frame rate ran just fine. As stated in the forest video the greatest impact on performance was the non-optimized trees that were first pass as well (literally made within days of the vid). Destruction of CUBE objects would impact collision calculations but not create many more objects as they already exist prior to destruction. Effects is a different engine entirely and has far less impact on performance (which is why pets were created using it).
I'll be waiting along with all of you for the 1st quarter updates of the game prior to Beta. The game will rapidly come together in appearance and function and I am sure we will better judge how the game will look in the long run.
That draw distance and map size though! Each zone has the ability to be the entire size of some mmo worlds! I really hope some of this engine tech can be transferred over to a more pve mmorpg some day. Mark has stated interest in a pve mmo at some point (obviously entirely based on this game's success or failure). He apparently has some ideas around a pet-centric game. I dare not enter the mind of this man until he willing to reveal more about it.
As for crafting: My interests is in all the non-crafting content that stems from crafter activity. The game isn't a pve game but this is where pve-like objectives will arise. Crafters have needs (including imbuing souls into items ... souls captured through RvR). RvR classes likely will be able to work hand in hand with crafters and progress through the faction XP system with many things to do outside of conventional RvR raiding. I look forward to see how this evolves.
You stay sassy!
Speaking of PvE game, yes there are plans and the "Unchained" engine was mentioned in that context (I just hope Mark won't fly away too soon). Furthermore, if all goes well, CSE will consider leasing/selling (or whatever the term is) the engine, as mentioned IIRC couple months ago!?
Currently........not playing any game.
-Crafting will be primarily bottle-necked by vox power/energy, not raw materials.
-Even non-crafters can gather to a degree.
-Crafting progression is analogous to character progression and will take (much) time and effort to master.
-There are multiple stages of crafting in which players can specialize beyond gathering.
-Items decay.
-Crafting is a relatively slow process.
What these design principles tell me is that resources are going to be abundant and cheap at low levels at least. There will always be a demand for certain items because of decay and also the rarity of crafting something extremely high end will cause those 'near-perfect' items to be insanely valuable. The market isn't likely to be flooded because of the long crafting times; even if there are a lot of crafters, some will refine, some will process, etc (sorry if those aren't the right names I don't have the doc in front of me).
Will there be areas of crafting that are more profitable than others? Of course there will. I can imaging gathering the highest end materials from somewhere like The Depths to be quite profitable. I can imagine that high end risky crafting, which has a high chance for failure, could make you rich or break you depending on RNG. I could also foresee that the most cost-effective good items (the fotm'ish weapons and armors) will produce some healthy competition among the average crafters.
It seems to me that the system is designed for all crafters to be able to find a niche in the market if they want it. Also I feel it slightly unfair to compare a game that puts this much emphasis on crafting to any MMO that obviously doesn't. The most common comparisons are EVE and SWG and I know the crafting in EVE was fine and I'm pretty sure SWG was as well though I didn't play it. I think it's thoroughly unfair, even naive, to scrutinize a game that is entirely different in crafting outlook and economy to other MMOs where the most common model for crafting is simply an economic gold sink that often only produces a single item of value for the crafter itself and nothing sellable whatsoever. Of course resources are more valuable in those games, players need the resources to 'max out' their characters while nothing of value is ever produced to the player economy. This isn't those games.
We won't know for sure until we touch it ourselves, but remember that player run economies work like real economies: supply and demand. If something isn't profitable you don't have to do it; if you have more fun doing something less profitable then you are free to do that as well. If the availability of materials is low and there are a TON of crafters then it's pretty likely that you are going to make very little selling your armor, that's just the nature of economics.
And IMO graphics aren't the important thing. It's whether its a good solid game. If the thing is beautiful but the server lags every time there's a big fight, to hell with it. If they are dated, but it runs smooth, then yes! I'm in! No, I don't expect to play the finished game with this old rig, but just giving you an idea of how well optimized it can be.