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How strong are endgame gear upgrades?

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  • KrylosKrylos Member UncommonPosts: 70
    1 word guys.  Fishing.  Thats worth my money.
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    Leiloni said:
    Jacobin said:
    Leiloni said:
    The guy in this video has been playing for a long time, is level 57 and probably has gear around +18 or so. That's average for Korean's who have been playing the game for a while. The people he was fighting just started the game about a week prior to this video and had much lower levels and lesser gear. He likely would never have gone near them but only did to make a point because they did a lot of shit talking on the forums for a few weeks and he went to go gank them to prove a point (that they were not in fact as badass as they said they were).
    I realize these guys were asking for it, but that isn't the point. They are still in the 50s and it shows how even in a 2v1 the gear scaling is insane.

    The whole mentality of 'my gear is so good you can't even touch me, therefore you suck' is repugnant in a pvp game and shows how anti-competitive and weak many 'pvpers' actually are.

    If the guy was actually legit, he wouldn't play with a gear crutch and would instead use a weaker character and still win the 2v1.

    Is wining a race against a minivan with a formula 1 car really something to brag about?
    Aside from what Kefo wrote which I agree with, games need progression. That's what they're all about. You need to give players goals and reasons to keep playing. And in an OwPvP MMO, you need to give players reasons to be out in the open world. Being out in the world doing things is when you encounter other players for GvG fights, or PK and there's a lot of grind required to prepare for castle sieges and node wars. You're always going to be out grinding something and getting better at something in this game and any game.

    What do you think would happen if players just hit some easy to reach gear and level cap in an open world MMO? They'd get bored fast. Yes we play to PvP but you don't just PvP all day every day. This isn't an ESO or GW2 style MMO. The entire game is encompassed in one seamless open game world and activities happen within that living, breathing world. I am guessing you've never played such an MMO before. If there weren't reasons - such as getting more levels and better gear - for people to be out grinding all day, there'd be no PVP and people would get bored and the game would die.
    Surely there are ways to give a sense of progression that don't end up in massive gear gaps.

    A game like this would be the perfect environment for a more horizontal progression system with limited power scaling precisely because there is so much to do out in the world other than just kill mobs and get better gear, which is what most mmos boil down to.
    ....
  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    edited January 2016
    Kefo said:
    You just described just about every pvp game in existence and every real life war. If I just hit max level in wow and goto pvp in my pve greens I don't expect the number 1 pvper in the world to start taking off their gear to make it more of a even fight, or to tell me to wait while they switch to another character to even the odds. Same goes for real world conflicts, you show up with the biggest stick.

    If those people were saying how badass they are and they do in fact show up to a formula 1 race in a minivan then that's on them. They were probably talking shit because they ganged up on some lower levels or it was a 1 vs 7 of them fight. Hopefully they learned the important lesson of not running your mouth off if you can't back up what you say
    WoW world pvp is a silly example since it is completely pointless.

    Wow has arenas and a ladder/rating system, so an undergeared player can't even get to top tier play. Even if a player is outgeared and losses over and over, he will still be able to eventually get the best PvP gear. Legion is normalizing all PVP stats.

    GW2, SWTOR, ESO all have forms of bolster buffs and stat normalization to keep pvp more fair. Please just stop with the ignorance and pointing to the 'real world' as how a competitive game should be designed.
     

    Leiloni said:
    games need progression. That's what they're all about. You need to give players goals and reasons to keep playing.
    How dense can you be? Vertical stat progression in an open world games does the exact opposite of 'keeping players playing' especially with P2W whale meta. There will always be the suckers who grind for months, but they are a tiny minority of the market - just login to an average AA server.

    Did I play DAOC for years because I was chasing some dream of eventually 1 shoting everybody? No I pvp'd because it was fun for its own sake. Same with Planetside 1 and GW1. If the game is designed well you don't need a carrot to chase and can instead focus on your personal skill set - just like in ACTUAL competitive games like Street Fighter, MOBAs, FPS, Starcraft.

    You are the one who hasn't apparently played a pvp game before other wise you would understand why almost every PVP MMO has failed.
  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    sounds like legion will finally kill pvp in wow.
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

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  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    Jacobin said:
    Kefo said:
    You just described just about every pvp game in existence and every real life war. If I just hit max level in wow and goto pvp in my pve greens I don't expect the number 1 pvper in the world to start taking off their gear to make it more of a even fight, or to tell me to wait while they switch to another character to even the odds. Same goes for real world conflicts, you show up with the biggest stick.

    If those people were saying how badass they are and they do in fact show up to a formula 1 race in a minivan then that's on them. They were probably talking shit because they ganged up on some lower levels or it was a 1 vs 7 of them fight. Hopefully they learned the important lesson of not running your mouth off if you can't back up what you say
    WoW world pvp is a silly example since it is completely pointless.

    Wow has arenas and a ladder/rating system, so an undergeared player can't even get to top tier play. Even if a player is outgeared and losses over and over, he will still be able to eventually get the best PvP gear. Legion is normalizing all PVP stats.

    GW2, SWTOR, ESO all have forms of bolster buffs and stat normalization to keep pvp more fair. Please just stop with the ignorance and pointing to the 'real world' as how a competitive game should be designed.
     
    pvp has nothing to do about being fair especially open world pvp. Yeah sure WoW's ladder system they limit at what tier you can play but that still doesn't change the fact that people won't stop and compare gear/team makeup/talent points in order to normalize the field so everyone has a fair chance.

    If I am out fishing and I get jumped by someone I sure as hell am not going to whine to the whole world that they should have warned me ahead of time so I could equip my weapon, drink any potions that would have helped and rebuffed myself.

    If you normalize everyone and make everyone exactly the same then where the hell is the fun of open world pvp? I want to always be on edge that I could be randomly ganked or someone who has better gear is going to kick my ass. You should take your own advice and stop being ignorant to how certain styles of pvp are done.
  • JacobinJacobin Member RarePosts: 1,009
    I have had this debate many times over the years and its usually the people who mainly played WoW that can't seem to understand that gear2win is not the only form of PvP design.

    WoW is just a dumb example anyways to use in regards to Black Desert because it doesn't involve a crazy RNG crafting system that takes months and months of grinding and upgrade attempts to get the best gear, and its a PVE raiding game.

    The carrot on a stick to keep you playing should be your personal skill development and ability to outplay people who are on a level playing field.

    Normalization means you actually need skill to win, not luck or a pile of cash to drop into the crafting casino. I guess on some level people get the games they deserve - just remember this thread 5 months after the game is out and the servers are merging.
  • reeereeereeereee Member UncommonPosts: 1,636
    Yall have fun being salty, I'm going to enjoy the cheap cosmetic items the whales will be forced to flood the market with if they want to "win"
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    Kefo said:
    Jacobin said:
    Kefo said:
    You just described just about every pvp game in existence and every real life war. If I just hit max level in wow and goto pvp in my pve greens I don't expect the number 1 pvper in the world to start taking off their gear to make it more of a even fight, or to tell me to wait while they switch to another character to even the odds. Same goes for real world conflicts, you show up with the biggest stick.

    If those people were saying how badass they are and they do in fact show up to a formula 1 race in a minivan then that's on them. They were probably talking shit because they ganged up on some lower levels or it was a 1 vs 7 of them fight. Hopefully they learned the important lesson of not running your mouth off if you can't back up what you say
    WoW world pvp is a silly example since it is completely pointless.

    Wow has arenas and a ladder/rating system, so an undergeared player can't even get to top tier play. Even if a player is outgeared and losses over and over, he will still be able to eventually get the best PvP gear. Legion is normalizing all PVP stats.

    GW2, SWTOR, ESO all have forms of bolster buffs and stat normalization to keep pvp more fair. Please just stop with the ignorance and pointing to the 'real world' as how a competitive game should be designed.
     


    If you normalize everyone and make everyone exactly the same then where the hell is the fun of open world pvp? I want to always be on edge that I could be randomly ganked or someone who has better gear is going to kick my ass. You should take your own advice and stop being ignorant to how certain styles of pvp are done.
    Y
    I think OWPVP in a closely balanced game power wise would be extremely fun, not sure why you claim it wouldn't. You still have to be on edge, since any one person would be able to kill you depending on skill/surprise etc, and and 2vs1 would put you at a severe disadvantage and almost certain death unless you were extremely skilled.

    The difference is that you wouldn't be able to twink yourself , lord it over everyone and basically run around without fear- ie the very opposite of why you claim massive gear imbalances make owpvp good.
    ....
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,852
    Jacobin said:
    It is my understanding that like most Korean MMOs, the endgame gear grind consists of upgrading items through an RNG crafting system where the item can potentially be destroyed after a certain tier.  This seems problematic to me because I don't believe that PVP can truly be considered balanced and competitive until all combatants are at the gear cap.

    In Western MMOs players generally have to farm daily/weekly/monthly capped tokens to buy the best gear which allows everyone to get to the cap and be competitive in a reasonable amount of time. This gear is also BOP which means it cannot be sold on the auction house. Games like GW2 further reduce the gear gap by making the best gear only 5% stronger than the easily obtainable exotic gear.

    Since Korean games make the best gear extremely rare and risky to obtain due to the RNG / casino nature of the crafting, then go a step further by making those items not BOP and sellable on the auction house which is influenced by real world cash, I have strong concerns that endgame pvp will be completely unbalanced like ArcheAge.

    Do the RNG gear upgrades have massive stat bonuses like AA? or is it like GW2 where the vertical stat progression is extremely limited?

    ........the endgame gear grind consists of upgrading items through an RNG crafting system


    This is where I am out. With that, this game holds ZERO interest for me.
  • BenjolaBenjola Member UncommonPosts: 843
    reeereee said:
    Yall have fun being salty, I'm going to enjoy the cheap cosmetic items the whales will be forced to flood the market with if they want to "win"
    Comon man, this is short-sighted and you know it.
    'Carebears' (casual PVE players that don't care much about PVP or competing against players) are not safe at all in these types of games.

    Actually, they are first to leave the game crying because the PVE is poor and gets boring fast ( end-game is PVP remember?) on top of being harrased, ganked and made fun of at every turn by 'P2W frustrated losers at life kiddies' and in the case of Archeage carebears, they were being farmed at their farms lol, molested while they were trying to craft, harvest or just chill around their cash shop decorated houses.

    Face it, if you want to stay in this type of  game for longer then few weeks you need to start PVPing, like it or not it's forced on you and in a massive-end-game-gear-gap type of game like Archeage or BDO, you need to spend a lot of money early in order to be able to defend yourself.



    I care about your gaming 'problems' and teenage anxieties, just not today.

  • heerobyaheerobya Member UncommonPosts: 465
    Progression needs to matter for the RPG side of the MMORPG, but the MMO side is greatly injured by having too much reliance on RPG power progression.

    There needs to be a progression of power, but higher-end players still need to always be in danger.

    Like, yeah a higher-end player of equal skill as a lower-end player should have a distinct advantage, but not be an invincible 1-shotting machine.

    If they screw up, get outplayed greatly, etc. the lower-end player should have a good shot at defeating them.

    And 2 vs 1? Yeah, the higher-end player has an advantage, and if played well has a great chance of victory, but if they don't take the fight seriously, get outmaneuvered, etc. they should definitely lose.

    All of this especially in a OWPvP game/scenario.

    MMOs kind of moved away from this idea a long time ago, and became all about a linear progression based on grinding - and it has not been good for the genre.

    The world then has to be designed to separate players, which is exactly what you DON'T want to do.
  • FrammshammFrammshamm Member UncommonPosts: 322
    Leiloni said:


    The only reason to try to P2W in BDO is if you're impatient. But this is a game where progression is literally neverending, so paying is completely stupid and won't get you any long term benefits. Not to mention, even if you have good gear, aside from the fact that everyone else will catch up, you still need to grind out levels, skill points, contribution points, energy, level and use your workers for crafting and gathering, etc. Those are all other very important methods of progression in BDO that you can't just pay your way through. They need to be grinded the old fashioned way and they all contribute to the game in important ways. This isn't a game where gear wins all. Sure you'll be temporarily powerful until people catch up, but you're still lacking in so many other ways.
    Umm.. if progression is neverending, then no one will ever catch up. Seems to me an ideal reason to pay a bit and get out ahead of the curve, and stay that way. You really dont think much do you?
  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,771
    Newnan said:
    I have played KR BDO for a few month over the summer.

    The Gear progression is 0-7 for weapons and 0-5 on armor have zero % chance to fail and require just one black spirit weapon/armor stone to upgrade. as you get past those numbers you run into the chance to fail which lowers the durability of the item by 5 or 10 depending on the item (out of 100). Each enchant level adds about 6-8 main dmg stat to the weapon depending on the weapon you are enchanting a Riberto weapon being the best because it starts as blue with the highest initial damage stat plus +3 crit as the base roll with two sockets. Other weapons are close but a +14 Riberto will normally be equal to a +15 of all the green equivalent weapons (both pve and pvp). The green (pve or pvp) weapon can be upgraded to blue/yellow easily but the increase is very small and even the yellow version is about the same as a riberto's base stats just without as much attack damage.  


    Final bit of info is after +15 you can actually go back down in enhances to +15 and need a second tiered black spirit stone that run for a lot more then tier 1.  Also the game turns into Horse simulator 2015 where people sit afk running on their horses 24/7 to level and breed them (using both in game and out of game macro, Legally).

    IMO the game will be another Archeage and be heavy pay2win. I mean that a player can open their wallet and get +15  on all their gear in the first week and then has easy time to PK/Owning  his/her way to a farming spot. Granted grind time will allow for more skill points for stronger skill ranks and higher lvl the gear in BDO is going to be controlled by the whales.
    Apparently it's incredibly easy to get +15 without paying anything.  Someone on reddit said he got it in 4 days in CBT just by knowing what to do.

    Also, +20 is basically impossible.  

    Furthermore, without an item to increase the chance of upgrade (which we won't have), it's going to be very expensive to just buy upgrades with cash.
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