I don't really consider them not as good,there are some improvements.The problem i have is that nobody is giving us a COMPLETE game,sure they improve one area but dumb down another or completely leave out another expected idea.
I just want someone to give me the whole package and without getting Jason Statham to deliver it :P
Are you prepared to accept a decade-long delivery time frame and a higher price tag, for a fully-complete fresh out of the box experience (equal to the 10-year "aged" AAA mmo titles)?
Or do you want Everything, at a basic price, and fast fast fast?
I have said it before if a game can deliver a complete game ,i will pay a higher sub fee than 15 ,maybe 25 bucks a month.They can hire a lot more employees if they got 10 bucks more a player on top of the box sale price which btw is no longer a box price most game sales are digital costing them a LOT less. Also technology is better faster than old days and it took them 7 years max in the old days.As well some studios are using 300 employees where in old days they maybe had from 50-150.
If your game was really good and even only had 2 million players,at 10 bucks more that is 20 million a month on top of the 15x2mil which is another 30 million,if you can't work with that,you shouldn't be making games.
Blizzard is proof that having an endless bucket of money doesn't mean *more* for the consumer.
Also, you forget the most important element of any product design... planned obsolescence. No product is designed to last forever. If anything, newer games are sticking closer to the philosophy of product design than ever before. You are getting less for your money because it encourages you to spend more money to get more. If they gave you a *complete* game, you wouldn't ever buy another. All those people involved with creating said game, who aren't the same people necessary to maintain said game, would be out of work forever.
I'm just stating the facts sorry you don't like them.
We are all expressing OPINIONS, stop getting all bent out of shape.
Glad you said that. I trust you will remain civil when you hear opinions that you do not agree with, such as "modern MMOs are much better because they are better games than virtual worlds".
There is no game now that was like Ultima Online. It is a shame that they changed it to be more like the newer games. Every mmo afterwards has been boring for me.
The crafting was great. It was always in demand. Getting to mark your characters name on items that you made was great.
Housing was great. What other games can you place a house and decorate it like UO could?
Character customization was great for original character looks. Dye tubs were awesome.
Character vendors in houses to sell stuff was awesome. You could spend hours just going around seeing what other people had for sale on their vendors.
The reputation on your characters was great. It was funny having a lord or lady character.
Fast travel with recall ruins was nice also. It allowed you to fast travel all over the world.
Skill based and not character classes was great. There were no places level dependent. If you wanted to see how good your character was you went out and fought something. If you started getting your rear end handed to you then you ran. Having that free feeling with no hand holding was great. Not having to check if something was some type of color was great.
Not knowing how much hp's or what type of character someone made up was great. I remember my friends house was getting looted by 2 people. He asked for help on icq so 7 of us showed up. None of us could fight ourselves out of a wet paper bag, we all had sucky characters or had crafting characters. The 2 people looting the house did not know it. They stopped and my friend told us not to attack and bluffed them. He told the main guy looting the house that he would duel him and if he won he could have the house and everything in it. I seen one of the most awesome duels I have ever witnessed in any game. The guy that was looting his house ended up leaving because he ran out of reagents. his friend followed promptly.
The orc masks were great. I remember playing on Chessy and there was a guild that dressed up as orcs and tried to pk people with just basic items. That is the closest I have seen to any mmo letting you try to play creatures in the world.
For all the people that complained about getting pked there was recall. It did not always work, but it helped a lot. I never pked people, but it was always fun being in a dungeon with a group of friends and either running from a few of them, or just trying to fight one. There were quite a few times when we won and a few times when I got pked. Items were easy to replace so it was no big deal. That is what made the game fun in my opinion. Every other game has fallen flat for me. The excitement is not there.
The flagging system was great. The games out now just want to have pvp with no consequences. Stat loss on red pk characters helped fewer people be pk's. Also having pk's in the game promoted grouping or going out with friends. Games now are usually just a solo quest.
All this put together makes it the most memorable game I have ever played. I still can remember stuff about UO and I can hardly remember about any other mmo that I have played.
The first time I went to a dungeon with a friend I was worried my character was going to die. There were a lot of people there. A guy with a Katana with no armor and asked if we seen a guy there( I will call him Bill). Everyone said no. He told us that he had been blue pked by Bill earlier. I kind of felt bad for him. Kat guy told us he was waiting for Bill to get even. Everyone said ok we would let him know if we seen him. Not more then 2 min after Kat guy told us about it Bill showed up. He recalled in right by Kat guy. Kat guy ended up flagging grey and trapping bill into a table and pked him. Kat guy told us all thanks for not attacking him since he was grey. I was shocked. It was the first time in a dungeon and this happened. I was hooked after that.
I remember the first time I made a Katana with my character marking on it. I thought it was awesome. Also, standing around at Brit repairing people's weapons and armor for tips was great.
I remember the player run events, and counselors that helped people when something happened in the game. The first night I played I was lost so I called for help. A counselor came and talked to me. He helped me with suggestions and showed me around a little. I have never had that happen in any other mmo that I have played. He asked me what I wanted to do. I told him I wanted to make weapons and armor. He then showed me how to craft, and got me started by telling me what to do.
Most MMO's now do not even have half the stuff that UO had or has now. I have not played since a little after 2000. I played on a free shard for a while about 3 years ago and it was great, but it shut down. I keep waiting for another MMO to come close, but nothing has. I have not played on another free shard since then, but I have been thinking seriously about it. If no MMO comes out soon then I may go back to one. I just do not like all the Macro's that they have in the game now. It does not have the same feel as it used to because of it.
While there are innumerous ways in which people are able to enjoy, or not enjoy, something like an MMO, the mechanics and "structure" of gameplay has kept overall to the same tenants. I think that is why there is such disagreement about the "state of current MMOs" all the time, because there is really two aspects to the conversation: What a title actually "is" vs. the ability, for various reasons, for someone to get enjoyment out of it.
While there are innumerous ways in which people are able to enjoy, or not enjoy, something like an MMO, the mechanics and "structure" of gameplay has kept overall to the same tenants. I think that is why there is such disagreement about the "state of current MMOs" all the time, because there is really two aspects to the conversation: What a title actually "is" vs. the ability, for various reasons, for someone to get enjoyment out of it.
The issue is less that as much as it is people getting tired of being stuck with shelves of MMO titles that all compete for the same space. It's basically the supermarket effect of going down an aisle and seeing several different brands of pumpkin pie. There's a place for very merry eggnog ice cream, coffee flavored cheese cake with dark chocolate icing, pecan pie, etc, but those are being ignored in favor of the "big market" of pumpkin pie. My previous post goes over a few more details on the subject, of why this is happening, but that is the gist of things.
Old school MMOs seemed to have more variety. These days every game plays the same way. Grind generic quests to max level, sprinkle in some group finder dungeons along the way, then transition to end game instanced raiding and pvp. The gameplay is so focused on those narrow ludic functions that players are divorced from the IP and the game world and the "massively multiplayer" aspect. I suspect most of these games don't really need to be an MMO anymore, and probably would have provided players with a better experience had they been developed as single player RPGs or multiplayer dungeon crawlers.
Yes, perfect. Its like if you're building a motorcycle and keep adding more and more car like features to appeal to the car crowd. At a certain point isn't it easier to just build a car and give it a good experience. Now you you have a 4 door closed in "motorcycle" that's cumbersome. Now motorcycle guys don't want it and car people only tolerate it if its free. Doesn't sound like a good recipes for success.
While there are innumerous ways in which people are able to enjoy, or not enjoy, something like an MMO, the mechanics and "structure" of gameplay has kept overall to the same tenants. I think that is why there is such disagreement about the "state of current MMOs" all the time, because there is really two aspects to the conversation: What a title actually "is" vs. the ability, for various reasons, for someone to get enjoyment out of it.
The issue is less that as much as it is people getting tired of being stuck with shelves of MMO titles that all compete for the same space. It's basically the supermarket effect of going down an aisle and seeing several different brands of pumpkin pie. There's a place for very merry eggnog ice cream, coffee flavored cheese cake with dark chocolate icing, pecan pie, etc, but those are being ignored in favor of the "big market" of pumpkin pie. My previous post goes over a few more details on the subject, of why this is happening, but that is the gist of things.
We may be talking about two separate things. I looked at your previous post and I'm sure it applies to some cases, as we can't know the closed door happenings of every pre-development MMO meeting. My argument above is more in reference to how we as players react, and the argument in this very thread.
To use your analogy if I may, pumpkin pie is the bulk of what companies are making but there are variations. Pumpkin pie with nuts, cinnamon, whip cream, or any variations of flavoring though the base is the same. Some people don't mind pumpkin pie even if they would prefer coffee flavored cheesecake with dark chocolate icing (* see below) and even further still may prefer, or tolerate, the other variations of pumpkin pie being made.
I'm not personally impressed with any MMO out right now and from a fundamental standpoint because 90% of the content is brain dead easy. Solo, group, doesn't matter there should be some "reward" for beating it, whether that be the act itself or gear. These conversations get muddled though because the willingness to play them may differ from person to person.
* You seriously had to say that phrase? Talk about the best substance ever to be known by human kind! O.o
Without player driven content or real time developer GM's turning it into a living world that is constantly changing I don't see how any mmo can turn out to be anything more than end game mini games until new content is developed months down the road.
IMO the market is flooded with games that are good enough but none so much better than any others that I devote my full attention to. I literally am playing 5 mmo's full time. I feel like a cheap whore lol.
Not sure the future will change that nor am i sure it's even possible.
I will play B&S till I have a few max level toons and have done everything then it will prob just become a fighting game which is fine TBH.
I have high hopes for BDO and will deff devote a month or more solely to that but weather it can keep my attention past that full time is up in the air.
Many players seem to have very unrealistic opinions or strange biased ones that give a pass to single player games even calling them "great" while an mmo with exactly the same elements is only "so so" even though that single player game cost you $60 for maybe 100 hours of content while the mmo gave you 100+ hours for free.
If there is one thing i wish mmo writers stopped doing it's creating stories where we are the solo savior protagonist during leveling only to be confronted with 1000's of other solo saviors of the world.
for fuck sake write a compelling story that doesn't emphasize anyone's uniqueness... I know it can be done.
MMORPGs are great right now. There's a bit of market oversaturation, and a bit of an over-representation of certain formats, but there are a plethora of really fantastic games available right now.
When I look at this poll and I see "MMO's Are Growing Old And Stale Because They All Basicly Play The Same." as a choice, I think to other genres. Do people still say this about Mario Bros.? What if I said "Platform Jumpers Are Growing Old And Stale Because They All Basicly Play The Same."? Or "FPS Are Growing Old And Stale Because They All Basicly Play The Same."
Yes, we've gotten too many crappy designs over the years, but there have been diamonds in the rough too. And this is what they are. So I have to ask.......If MMO's Are Growing Old And Stale Because They All Basicly Play The Same, then do you really like them at all?
LOL crappy choices. MMO's just arnt made as well as they were. All the choices have been taken out of them. Worlds are on rail roads and skills are too limited. Dont get me wrong some games of tons of skills TSW/PoE, but they have nothing that makes the world a home and both of those games expect you to do content over and over again.
I would expect mmo's to have advanced from eq/dnd/marrowind with tons of character builds and choices instead it seems like they advanced from mortal combat/streetfighter just cookie cutter choices
So much to say on this subject. I really prefer an open world where you have to travel everywhere(not jump through with a mechanic like a dungeon finder). Makes the game much more social, interesting and interactive.
Talking about games where thousands of players exist simultaneously in a single instance and mechanics related to such games.
When I look at this poll and I see "MMO's Are Growing Old And Stale Because They All Basicly Play The Same." as a choice, I think to other genres. Do people still say this about Mario Bros.? What if I said "Platform Jumpers Are Growing Old And Stale Because They All Basicly Play The Same."? Or "FPS Are Growing Old And Stale Because They All Basicly Play The Same."
Yes, we've gotten too many crappy designs over the years, but there have been diamonds in the rough too. And this is what they are. So I have to ask.......If MMO's Are Growing Old And Stale Because They All Basicly Play The Same, then do you really like them at all?
While stale isn't the option I picked, I do sort of see why people would choose it. The fact is that we have a genre with pretty much unlimited possibilities in terms of gameplay, and yet an inordinate of them stick the formula that EQ and WoW popularized.
While we have our Ever Janes and our Eves, they're the exception in the genre, not the norm. We need more Ever Janes, more Wizard101s, more Crowfalls, and fewer ESOs and FFXIVs. Not saying we shouldn't have both (we definitely should), but a bit more balance would be nice.
screw non repeatable content in mmo's. I mean it's not that a good storyquest isn't nice but you can only do it once and never again. It's not as worth while imo as making repeatable content. I just cant see how the ROI can be as good on nonrepeatable content as it would be on repeatable content.
imo fokus should be on making it easy for people to socialise and giving them a reason to do so. Making a good combatsystem, a good number of guild tools, some sort of groupfinder tool, doesn't have to be automated though, but some way of letting people know your looking to group up.
Imo the problem is mmorpg's are more and more the same as singleplayer rpg's, only with less customisation and worse story. mmorpg's shouldn't try compete with singleplayers rpg's in the area's where singleplayer rpg's are strongest and by that weaken the area where mmorpg's are strongest.
mmorpg's should fokus on their owns strenghts instead of trying to copy good singleplayer rpg strenghts. At least dont do it at expense of own strenghts.
screw non repeatable content in mmo's. I mean it's not that a good storyquest isn't nice but you can only do it once and never again. It's not as worth while imo as making repeatable content. I just cant see how the ROI can be as good on nonrepeatable content as it would be on repeatable content.
imo fokus should be on making it easy for people to socialise and giving them a reason to do so. Making a good combatsystem, a good number of guild tools, some sort of groupfinder tool, doesn't have to be automated though, but some way of letting people know your looking to group up.
Imo the problem is mmorpg's are more and more the same as singleplayer rpg's, only with less customisation and worse story. mmorpg's shouldn't try compete with singleplayers rpg's in the area's where singleplayer rpg's are strongest and by that weaken the area where mmorpg's are strongest.
mmorpg's should fokus on their owns strenghts instead of trying to copy good singleplayer rpg strenghts. At least dont do it at expense of own strenghts.
I am no fan of what most MMOs do in their endgame, and I would hate to see a game even more focused on such a thing, but I think there's a shining nugget of wisdom in your post. It just doesn't make sense to send players on a single player RPG experience to max level and then transition abruptly into an intensely group orientated set of tasks like progression raiding and organized pvp.
Graphically - Better Game play - Better Story - Better Accessibility - Better Mechanics - Better Repetition - Same Class mechanics - Better Class diversity - Better or Worse depends on game World size - Varies Bugs - More Balance - Worse Alternative Advancement Paths - Better or Worse depends on game
In War - Victory. In Peace - Vigilance. In Death - Sacrifice.
It is undeniably worse. Every new MMORPG fails in less than 6 months and every update developers add to there games tend to drive more players away from their product. If MMORPG consumers weren't so starved for a new good game the entire MMORPG market would have died out 5 years ago.
When I look at this poll and I see "MMO's Are Growing Old And Stale Because They All Basicly Play The Same." as a choice, I think to other genres. Do people still say this about Mario Bros.? What if I said "Platform Jumpers Are Growing Old And Stale Because They All Basicly Play The Same."? Or "FPS Are Growing Old And Stale Because They All Basicly Play The Same."
In fact they do and always have.
Of course, most such scenarios are concluded with the developers moving on from platform jumpers etc. and on to making some other kind of game.
That would be shocking, here on mmorpg.com. This sub-genre could be going the way of the platformer?
Why yes, yes it could. Unlikely for it to vanish entirely, but given Blizzard's lack of continued interest, SOE faded into the sunset, Funcom up for sale--where/who are the big players now?
This could very well BE the sunset of the species, what we are currently experiencing.
"There are more arcade titles published today than ever before. And the best quality they've ever been!"
Sure, but does anyone notice? Or has the Gamer Hive Mind already moved on? Is the Developer Hive Mind attracted to the easier money in a different pasture?
Graphically - Better Game play - Better Story - Better Accessibility - Better Mechanics - Better Repetition - Same Class mechanics - Better Class diversity - Better or Worse depends on game World size - Varies Bugs - More Balance - Worse Alternative Advancement Paths - Better or Worse depends on game
Graphically - agreed Gameplay - Not at all, but that's a subjective opinion Story - ...how can you even say "better"? What does that even mean? Accessibility - You mean free Mechanics - Again, no idea what you actually mean here. The game works and is balanced? Repetition - Obviously, you've never played the older MMOs Class Mechanics - I don't think you know what mechanics means Class Diversity - If ya like classes World Size - Meh, whatever works for the game, but yeah, better tools allows for bigger worlds. Bugs - Yeah, more, but that comes with new tech and techniques Balance - I haven't really noticed too much disparity Alternative Advancement - This wasn't even needed until they enforced lame classes
Comments
Also, you forget the most important element of any product design... planned obsolescence. No product is designed to last forever. If anything, newer games are sticking closer to the philosophy of product design than ever before. You are getting less for your money because it encourages you to spend more money to get more. If they gave you a *complete* game, you wouldn't ever buy another. All those people involved with creating said game, who aren't the same people necessary to maintain said game, would be out of work forever.
Of course it does.
As opposed to only a polished mmorpg, now we have a polished ARPG, MOBA, CCG, RTS, and soon a shooter.
Blizz is great for consumers, just not those who only play mmorpgs.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Yes, perfect. Its like if you're building a motorcycle and keep adding more and more car like features to appeal to the car crowd. At a certain point isn't it easier to just build a car and give it a good experience. Now you you have a 4 door closed in "motorcycle" that's cumbersome. Now motorcycle guys don't want it and car people only tolerate it if its free. Doesn't sound like a good recipes for success.
We may be talking about two separate things. I looked at your previous post and I'm sure it applies to some cases, as we can't know the closed door happenings of every pre-development MMO meeting. My argument above is more in reference to how we as players react, and the argument in this very thread.
To use your analogy if I may, pumpkin pie is the bulk of what companies are making but there are variations. Pumpkin pie with nuts, cinnamon, whip cream, or any variations of flavoring though the base is the same. Some people don't mind pumpkin pie even if they would prefer coffee flavored cheesecake with dark chocolate icing (* see below) and even further still may prefer, or tolerate, the other variations of pumpkin pie being made.
I'm not personally impressed with any MMO out right now and from a fundamental standpoint because 90% of the content is brain dead easy. Solo, group, doesn't matter there should be some "reward" for beating it, whether that be the act itself or gear. These conversations get muddled though because the willingness to play them may differ from person to person.
* You seriously had to say that phrase? Talk about the best substance ever to be known by human kind! O.o
IMO the market is flooded with games that are good enough but none so much better than any others that I devote my full attention to. I literally am playing 5 mmo's full time. I feel like a cheap whore lol.
Not sure the future will change that nor am i sure it's even possible.
I will play B&S till I have a few max level toons and have done everything then it will prob just become a fighting game which is fine TBH.
I have high hopes for BDO and will deff devote a month or more solely to that but weather it can keep my attention past that full time is up in the air.
Many players seem to have very unrealistic opinions or strange biased ones that give a pass to single player games even calling them "great" while an mmo with exactly the same elements is only "so so" even though that single player game cost you $60 for maybe 100 hours of content while the mmo gave you 100+ hours for free.
If there is one thing i wish mmo writers stopped doing it's creating stories where we are the solo savior protagonist during leveling only to be confronted with 1000's of other solo saviors of the world.
for fuck sake write a compelling story that doesn't emphasize anyone's uniqueness... I know it can be done.
Yes, we've gotten too many crappy designs over the years, but there have been diamonds in the rough too. And this is what they are. So I have to ask.......If MMO's Are Growing Old And Stale Because They All Basicly Play The Same, then do you really like them at all?
I would expect mmo's to have advanced from eq/dnd/marrowind with tons of character builds and choices instead it seems like they advanced from mortal combat/streetfighter just cookie cutter choices
I really prefer an open world where you have to travel everywhere(not jump through with a mechanic like a dungeon finder). Makes the game much more social, interesting and interactive.
While we have our Ever Janes and our Eves, they're the exception in the genre, not the norm. We need more Ever Janes, more Wizard101s, more Crowfalls, and fewer ESOs and FFXIVs. Not saying we shouldn't have both (we definitely should), but a bit more balance would be nice.
~~ postlarval ~~
imo fokus should be on making it easy for people to socialise and giving them a reason to do so. Making a good combatsystem, a good number of guild tools, some sort of groupfinder tool, doesn't have to be automated though, but some way of letting people know your looking to group up.
Imo the problem is mmorpg's are more and more the same as singleplayer rpg's, only with less customisation and worse story. mmorpg's shouldn't try compete with singleplayers rpg's in the area's where singleplayer rpg's are strongest and by that weaken the area where mmorpg's are strongest.
mmorpg's should fokus on their owns strenghts instead of trying to copy good singleplayer rpg strenghts. At least dont do it at expense of own strenghts.
Graphically - Better
Game play - Better
Story - Better
Accessibility - Better
Mechanics - Better
Repetition - Same
Class mechanics - Better
Class diversity - Better or Worse depends on game
World size - Varies
Bugs - More
Balance - Worse
Alternative Advancement Paths - Better or Worse depends on game
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
Of course, most such scenarios are concluded with the developers moving on from platform jumpers etc. and on to making some other kind of game.
That would be shocking, here on mmorpg.com. This sub-genre could be going the way of the platformer?
Why yes, yes it could. Unlikely for it to vanish entirely, but given Blizzard's lack of continued interest, SOE faded into the sunset, Funcom up for sale--where/who are the big players now?
This could very well BE the sunset of the species, what we are currently experiencing.
"There are more arcade titles published today than ever before. And the best quality they've ever been!"
Sure, but does anyone notice? Or has the Gamer Hive Mind already moved on? Is the Developer Hive Mind attracted to the easier money in a different pasture?
Gameplay - Not at all, but that's a subjective opinion
Story - ...how can you even say "better"? What does that even mean?
Accessibility - You mean free
Mechanics - Again, no idea what you actually mean here. The game works and is balanced?
Repetition - Obviously, you've never played the older MMOs
Class Mechanics - I don't think you know what mechanics means
Class Diversity - If ya like classes
World Size - Meh, whatever works for the game, but yeah, better tools allows for bigger worlds.
Bugs - Yeah, more, but that comes with new tech and techniques
Balance - I haven't really noticed too much disparity
Alternative Advancement - This wasn't even needed until they enforced lame classes