EQ never forces anyone to have a specific CC class like enchanter or bard.
Druids, Clerics, Rangers, Necros, Paladins, and Wizards can CC with root, and Druits and Shaman have an AE type vine root / punt. Druids and Rangers have harmony to CC during pulls. SK and Monk have FD to CC during pulls. Warriors have AA rampage and AE whirlwind skills, SK and Paladin have PB AE spells, to deal with adds.
You never needed enchanters or bards in EQ just to CC. You had a gazillion and one options.
Then having played the simple plate armor design,i felt no real difference between needing a Shadowknight or a Paladin.
A good paladin often saved your raid, their ability to cure your group and their ability to keep themselves alive was unmatched. Often times it was a paladin saving the raid. Those are things SK can't do, but they get unmatched aggro and FD instead.
This is one of only two MMOs I am following right now. I hope this gets pointed in a direction that it gets made. When my money can get me a place at the table to play, I will support this game.
I dunno but they def need to cut something for Bard at launch and this is coming from someone that hates playing Bards. It fills a very unique role that many people love. Maybe replace Druid with Bard, since Shaman could hold over those players for awhile. Same thing with Dark Elves, they are far more important then Dark Myr/Gnomes/Skar.
I dunno but they def need to cut something for Bard at launch and this is coming from someone that hates playing Bards. It fills a very unique role that many people love. Maybe replace Druid with Bard, since Shaman could hold over those players for awhile. Same thing with Dark Elves, they are far more important then Dark Myr/Gnomes/Skar.
I agree, bard is a must have but they need to make twisting songs done differently lol
What I don't like about "balancing" classes is the amount of developer time that has to be invested trying to do it. And every change they make just leads to another FOTM build, which then has to be balanced all over again.
What does, imo, need to be monitored are classes that are getting wholesale passed over for groups due to a gamewide perception that the class is weak/less useful. That doesn't mean every class has to do the same dps, or whatever their principal role may be, but they should have some meritorious reason for being in a group that makes them valuable.
This is exactly what happened in EQ due to player perception. Were classes as players perceived? Not really, but that didn't stop the ridiculous pigeonholing by the player base. People whined about how they were passed over in groups, not because their class was useless, not because they had nothing to bring to the group, but because mob rule defined such perception and lots of gullible people bought into it. This perpetuated the class wars and envy with complaint after complaint, whine after whine, attack after attack, etc... all BS garbage.
I go on about mainstream, but EQ had its own problems and the EQ player base was no stranger to the idiocy of social morons pushing gossip about classes and inciting wars among each other. In fact, it was like the WoW forums, which is why Sony shut down its official forums at that time. Players threw tantrums and had hissy fits over the dumbest things concerning this. Hell, you even had developers buying into the garbage.
In the end, you can't balance based on "who is getting passed over" as it will be heavily driven by misinformation, gossip, social fad, and issues with people using class balance to hide their own inadequacy.
Here is the thing though. This is what people want, it is what they keep asking for, it is what they will get. As long as they attempt to "balance" to cater to people, the problem will continue. There are too many variables and very rarely will you find a player willing to argue for true balance which means each complaint about a lacking or another class excelling will be extremely biased and self serving.
Just too add some things I remember being answered by devs. And keep in mind this isnt necessarily set in stone. But they said they have no intention of copying Bloodmage or Disciple. However they said for expansion classes, they might design a new type of class that was as unique as those classes. I think thats where the secret class forum listing comes in. Also Bard and Necromancer are 2 classes that would definitely be coming with an expansion if they cant get them out by launch.
I also specifically asked and Kilsin answered directly about Bard saying they would try to get it out by launch but no promises. So I really hope it does for sure. We need another dedicated support class, because everything else aside from Enchanter seems like Tanks, DPS, or Healers.
I personally would love Bard to be in at launch as that would likely be my main. And I cant for the life of me figure out why it didnt make it in the initial class round up. It seems to be a very popular class by forum post count..... and needed. But I do agree that it doesnt need to be OP.
This is where I think something between EQ or VG Bard meets FFXI Bard might work. XI's bard Was similar in many ways to the other 2. However it didnt do dps. So It not only was worthless to try soloing it, it was never any significant source of damage. In fact if you were doing anything other than buffs/debuffs or emergency CC, you were doing it wrong and would likely get kicked. So basically in FFXI they were master buffer/debuffers with some CC and some utility skills like movement speed. They couldnt ever hold a dps spot and werent insane and unstoppable kite monsters. So I think giving negligible DPS while limiting Kiting could help even them out for Pantheon. Just basically make them buff/debuff masters with some CC and a few utility spells like movement speed. With of course the EQ/VG spin.
EQ gave many classes special abilities that made them experts against certain mob types. Mages for elementals, Cleric, pally,shadownight, Necromancer for undead, Druid for animals.
Basically, if character used the right spells they could solo or group content designed for a rounded group if it was mobs they were experts against.
As far as healers, shaman, druid, cleric should be mains and have other ways of evening out heals for normal mobs similar to how EQ did it. For strong group encounters a cleric will be needed along with another class to either offset incoming damage or extra heals like shaman or druid.
Also both Druid and Bard were very effective at many rolls but experts of few. This changed a bit once enough AA's were distributed to dial in more of an expert roll in either dots, heals, direct damage..etc.
Hope they surprise us and announce 4 more classes . Tank healer dps utility. With the game a year away or two leaves lots of time to add.Think EQ1 and EQ2 had 14 to 16 at launch .
P.S. This is the type of class system I have been dying for. I miss the trinity so much lol, just ty =-)
If you really love/miss the trinity than you havent played FFXIV. That game took the trinity to its most standard aspect and made me dislike it. You were either DPS/tank/heal and strictly those roles with no hybrids or playing any other role. They even build the endgame raids with those strictly in mind so if you were not doing X amount of damage or could heal quick enough you would fail their dull as hell scripted to death fights.
I miss things like XI and EQ where there were jobs that fit more than one role, more pure support or crowd control jobs, not just the big 3 only. Its why i loved jobs like redmage/bluemage/summoner in XI and Bard and Shaman in the EQ series, You did not feel like you were tied down to one task and rarely diviated from it. They were also the better solo jobs back when MMOs did not have much soloing.
FFXI did have the Dancer Job. Rogue type frontline AoE healer/buffer. Used daggers to gain TP (stamina) instead of MPs for casting. It was a fun class.
I just had to say it........ I can picture Sinist dying a little on the inside lol.
It was a rather shall I say flamboyant class, not for everyone lol.
I dunno but they def need to cut something for Bard at launch and
this is coming from someone that hates playing Bards. It fills a very
unique role that many people love. Maybe replace Druid with Bard, since
Shaman could hold over those players for awhile. Same thing with Dark
Elves, they are far more important then Dark Myr/Gnomes/Skar.
Bards are hard to balance, thats why I dont mind they'll be added later.
The Dark Myr are obviously supposed to be the Darkelves of Pantheon.
Alternatively the Elves are actually two races, Ashen and Ember, so one of them might be Darkelves, too. But my guess from the description is that Ashen Elves are High Elves and Ember Elves are Woodelves.
I dunno but they def need to cut something for Bard at launch and
this is coming from someone that hates playing Bards. It fills a very
unique role that many people love. Maybe replace Druid with Bard, since
Shaman could hold over those players for awhile. Same thing with Dark
Elves, they are far more important then Dark Myr/Gnomes/Skar.
Bards are hard to balance, thats why I dont mind they'll be added later.
The Dark Myr are obviously supposed to be the Darkelves of Pantheon.
Alternatively the Elves are actually two races, Ashen and Ember, so one of them might be Darkelves, too. But my guess from the description is that Ashen Elves are High Elves and Ember Elves are Woodelves.
Personally, I think they are only "hard to balance" if you are attending to certain player expectations. A common problem with hybrids were that players always evaluated their worth based on narrowed requirements.
For instance, if a class could do fair in many areas, they would always select one area and then only evaluate it in comparison. That is... if the class did fair healing... they would say "my healing is crappy, nobody will want me because my healing is so bad" while ignoring that they can also do several other abilities fair as well and it was the versatility and their unique utility that made them powerful.
Thing is, such power is lost on groups of people who pigeon hole everything into narrow focus (ie tank, healer, dps) so it was unfortunate for some players as the masses began to dictate what was required for a group there by making many hybrid classes feel as if they were inferior and needed changes to make them viable.
The bard was powerful in EQ from the start, being the perfect goto class to provide all the utility you could need. A clever and skilled bard was a force a very poweful tool. Problem is, many saw them as just fluff always coming up short of what other classes did better. Over time, with "trinity" becoming the law of the land according to players and eventually adopted by even developers, classes of such nature were termed lacking and so were empowered.
The result? Bards soloing every mob in a zone at once (HoH swarm kiting), becoming the premier pullers, CC'ers, providing many of the best buffs, AoEs, etc... all because people thought a hybrid class still needed to compete in something, had to be pushed into one of those narrow roles. The very concept to which the bard was born (ie the D&D bard, jack of all trades, class of a 1000 uses) lost its meaning.
All in all I find thew new classes boring compared to the old version that was in the original Kickstarter just like I find the new races boring compared to the old version.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
I love healing for group play, and that's why I play mmos for group play.
I hate being a tank ( I respect them, just can't be one ).
1) There usually boring classes to me.
2) Anyone that plays one should know the dungeon or content well, however their are naturals at it. Great for them, I'm just not one.
3) I'm not good at pressure when I have someone in my group busting my balls.
Why would anyone be busting your balls or putting pressure on you? Be it playing the healer the tank or anything else? You're not the problem in those situations ..
blame wow because that is the game that started that annoying trend of tearing through dungeons as fast as possible with absolutely no need for actual planning or communication at all.....except for when the tank isn't going fast enough then you get yelled at....which is what the poster was referring to.
they need to make the group content hard and not just a faceroll race to the end. must require careful planning and CC to survive, make finishing a dungeon an accomplishment again.
All in all I find thew new classes boring compared to the old
version that was in the original Kickstarter just like I find the new
races boring compared to the old version.
... ?????
How so ? We have more classes now than back then.
No subclasses yet, though, but my guess is they'll be added later.
They'll be added for sure for Cleric, very likely also for Shaman, to accommodate the fact that of course theres more than just religion in Pantheon.
Comments
Druids, Clerics, Rangers, Necros, Paladins, and Wizards can CC with root, and Druits and Shaman have an AE type vine root / punt.
Druids and Rangers have harmony to CC during pulls.
SK and Monk have FD to CC during pulls.
Warriors have AA rampage and AE whirlwind skills, SK and Paladin have PB AE spells, to deal with adds.
You never needed enchanters or bards in EQ just to CC. You had a gazillion and one options.
This is exactly what happened in EQ due to player perception. Were classes as players perceived? Not really, but that didn't stop the ridiculous pigeonholing by the player base. People whined about how they were passed over in groups, not because their class was useless, not because they had nothing to bring to the group, but because mob rule defined such perception and lots of gullible people bought into it. This perpetuated the class wars and envy with complaint after complaint, whine after whine, attack after attack, etc... all BS garbage.
I go on about mainstream, but EQ had its own problems and the EQ player base was no stranger to the idiocy of social morons pushing gossip about classes and inciting wars among each other. In fact, it was like the WoW forums, which is why Sony shut down its official forums at that time. Players threw tantrums and had hissy fits over the dumbest things concerning this. Hell, you even had developers buying into the garbage.
In the end, you can't balance based on "who is getting passed over" as it will be heavily driven by misinformation, gossip, social fad, and issues with people using class balance to hide their own inadequacy.
Here is the thing though. This is what people want, it is what they keep asking for, it is what they will get. As long as they attempt to "balance" to cater to people, the problem will continue. There are too many variables and very rarely will you find a player willing to argue for true balance which means each complaint about a lacking or another class excelling will be extremely biased and self serving.
I also specifically asked and Kilsin answered directly about Bard saying they would try to get it out by launch but no promises. So I really hope it does for sure. We need another dedicated support class, because everything else aside from Enchanter seems like Tanks, DPS, or Healers.
I personally would love Bard to be in at launch as that would likely be my main. And I cant for the life of me figure out why it didnt make it in the initial class round up. It seems to be a very popular class by forum post count..... and needed. But I do agree that it doesnt need to be OP.
This is where I think something between EQ or VG Bard meets FFXI Bard might work. XI's bard Was similar in many ways to the other 2. However it didnt do dps. So It not only was worthless to try soloing it, it was never any significant source of damage. In fact if you were doing anything other than buffs/debuffs or emergency CC, you were doing it wrong and would likely get kicked. So basically in FFXI they were master buffer/debuffers with some CC and some utility skills like movement speed. They couldnt ever hold a dps spot and werent insane and unstoppable kite monsters. So I think giving negligible DPS while limiting Kiting could help even them out for Pantheon. Just basically make them buff/debuff masters with some CC and a few utility spells like movement speed. With of course the EQ/VG spin.
Basically, if character used the right spells they could solo or group content designed for a rounded group if it was mobs they were experts against.
As far as healers, shaman, druid, cleric should be mains and have other ways of evening out heals for normal mobs similar to how EQ did it. For strong group encounters a cleric will be needed along with another class to either offset incoming damage or extra heals like shaman or druid.
Also both Druid and Bard were very effective at many rolls but experts of few. This changed a bit once enough AA's were distributed to dial in more of an expert roll in either dots, heals, direct damage..etc.
I miss things like XI and EQ where there were jobs that fit more than one role, more pure support or crowd control jobs, not just the big 3 only. Its why i loved jobs like redmage/bluemage/summoner in XI and Bard and Shaman in the EQ series, You did not feel like you were tied down to one task and rarely diviated from it. They were also the better solo jobs back when MMOs did not have much soloing.
I just had to say it........ I can picture Sinist dying a little on the inside lol.
It was a rather shall I say flamboyant class, not for everyone lol.
Just Necro it, and ill "throw" money at you!
....Being Banned from MMORPG's forums since 2010, for Trolling the Trolls!!!
The Dark Myr are obviously supposed to be the Darkelves of Pantheon.
Alternatively the Elves are actually two races, Ashen and Ember, so one of them might be Darkelves, too. But my guess from the description is that Ashen Elves are High Elves and Ember Elves are Woodelves.
For instance, if a class could do fair in many areas, they would always select one area and then only evaluate it in comparison. That is... if the class did fair healing... they would say "my healing is crappy, nobody will want me because my healing is so bad" while ignoring that they can also do several other abilities fair as well and it was the versatility and their unique utility that made them powerful.
Thing is, such power is lost on groups of people who pigeon hole everything into narrow focus (ie tank, healer, dps) so it was unfortunate for some players as the masses began to dictate what was required for a group there by making many hybrid classes feel as if they were inferior and needed changes to make them viable.
The bard was powerful in EQ from the start, being the perfect goto class to provide all the utility you could need. A clever and skilled bard was a force a very poweful tool. Problem is, many saw them as just fluff always coming up short of what other classes did better. Over time, with "trinity" becoming the law of the land according to players and eventually adopted by even developers, classes of such nature were termed lacking and so were empowered.
The result? Bards soloing every mob in a zone at once (HoH swarm kiting), becoming the premier pullers, CC'ers, providing many of the best buffs, AoEs, etc... all because people thought a hybrid class still needed to compete in something, had to be pushed into one of those narrow roles. The very concept to which the bard was born (ie the D&D bard, jack of all trades, class of a 1000 uses) lost its meaning.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
they need to make the group content hard and not just a faceroll race to the end. must require careful planning and CC to survive, make finishing a dungeon an accomplishment again.
How so ? We have more classes now than back then.
No subclasses yet, though, but my guess is they'll be added later.
They'll be added for sure for Cleric, very likely also for Shaman, to accommodate the fact that of course theres more than just religion in Pantheon.