Black Desert is pay 2 win.

reeereee · December 2015

Aelious said:

reeereee said:

Aelious said:

reeereee said:
Last I heard it was very easy to hit lvl 50 and there is little to do once you got there so I don't know where you are getting these ideas.

Because that isn't the "real level" where power is concerned. That power lies in the enchanting of items, currently at +20 if I'm not mistaken. That is accomplished though an RNG systems that uses other items to enchant the ones you have equipped. That's where the problem with the ability to sell cash shop items in the in game market comes from.

Going further, expanding on what @Lester_Creech stated, there is a node/market economy system in BDO as well, which is a fantastic aspect of what makes the MMO special, but can also be effected by what Lester was talking about.

I fail to see why I should be concerned some people are getting to +20 when there is very little content to compete over.

If items related to upgrading were sold in the cash shop then you would have a much stronger claim. If all the whales are forced to buy costumes and sell them to get rich I see the price of costumes being very low.

The issue isn't with what can be fought over, it's the power discrepancy between those fighting. In an MMO with PvP systems, power, and how it can be obtained, is paramount.

You can see the pictures in the OP for pricing. I assume prices fluctuate a little, markets always do, but it gives a good picture into the effect. I see what you are saying but you should see the difference between the gear dropped in game and the outfits they sell, the level of detail is amazing and I doubt the demand goes down very far.

Again, from what I'm hearing there is very little to be gained and much to lose from PvP. This isn't Dark Fall.

I'm looking at the OP's numbers and it seem they need to sell 15 costumes to get one unupgraded ring. (Unless I'm not seeing the upgrade on it) Doesn't seem super troubling to me so far.

hyutei · December 2015

After reading few pages i will say this,BDO is PAY2WIN 100%
You say gw2 does the same thing,no they dont,cos even if you spend cash and buy gold with your cash,you wont be any stronger then other people,cos what it comes down to is skill,some games like that work even if there are cash shop items that you can sell for gold,they still will not be pay2win

But lets say ArcheAge,in a way BDO and ArcheAge are identical games,archeage was ruined by cash shop items,cos guy that spends 1000€ 1 shots people that played months to get their gear

You loving the game and not wanting any bad reviews about the game does not mean BDO is not pay2win,cos sooner or later the game will end up as archeage did,dead

It does not matter if player/npc that grinded the RING or what ever and then sold it to a guy that spent cash to buy that rings,there is no difference if players sell it or NPC do,cos at the end of the day,the guy that grinds few months will not be even close to being as geared up as guy who spends the 1st day 1000€ and buys him self the best possible gear,and no this is not another hate towards Korean,i love their games,TERA/Blade and Soul,played both for quite a long time,ofc Blade and Soul was on China server,but that doesnt matter.

For those that think that this is not Pay2Win i will say this,in few months after the game is released,DO NOT COME BACK HERE AND SAY THE GAME IS PAY2WIN,but both you and i know that you will,cos you have no fkin idea what your talking about,and non of you even knows what pay2win means,in few months most of you will either get raped by some guy who spends 1000€ on gear and will quit the game or some of you will be the ones that spend 1000s of € and will be top on server,which ever ends up,i know that BDO will not last for long time,cos it having great graphics means shit if at the end of the day you cant do anything to the guy that spent a bit more money then you have.

YashaX · December 2015

GeezerGamer said:

YashaX said:

If you can pay money to get an advantage it is p2w. The thing is, p2w is not necessarily a bad thing and the impact it has on a game can vary considerably depending on how the game it set up.

For example in GW2 you can exchange game currency for gems (basically real money), so that game is on paper as p2w as you can get. However, since it has totally normalized (no gear/level differences) skill-based group pvp as its main competitive arena, a level boosting system for its WvW with easily obtainable mid-tier gear and a reasonable gap between gear tiers in terms of power, and no open world pvp, there is very little to no sense of what usually comes to mind when people think of the term "p2w". Indeed, despite the ability to basically straight out buy power with cash, GW2 feels more balanced to me than games like ESO and pre-cash shop WoW, in terms of pvp at least.

On the complete opposite end of the spectrum recently we had ArchAge. This game had the gall to charge a sub to play the full version of the game AND have an aggressive p2w system that had a huge impact on the game. It would take a long time to detail the depths of that system, but in short being able to buy everything from actual play time (labor) to powerful game changing items that can be used from level 1 (houses, boats, etc) combined with open world pvp and huge gear gaps made it the worst p2w system I have seen recently.

BDO looks like the p2w impact could be similar to something like we have in Tera judging by what the OP says about enchanting, but at least we don't have to also pay a sub to enjoy the full game (unlike in AA), and there are also plenty of mechanics (trade/farming/exploration/world-building) that don't require the "best gear" for us to enjoy.

I would think it's probably going to revolve around how tight the circles are. Meaning how much influence on the average person's day to day gaming whales will have. If for the most part, the whales operate in their circles and the casuals in their own circles and they don't really come into much contact with each other, then this type of set up can work. But if the whales can exert more influence over everyone else's game and really create issues for casuals, then this game is not likely to be a highly successful title.

I agree. The decision to lower the level cap on when owpvp is allowed and if this is combined with making it harder to get to level 50 like in the Russian server will unfortunately make things worse for casuals. Just have to see how it pans out, but the large power gaps in gear and difficulty/rng on enchantments automatically makes any p2w element all the more dangerous (for a pvp game at least).

I'm being an armchair dev here, but I would have thought a game like this with an endgame focused on pvp, plenty of interesting non-combat pve activities and goals, and limited scope in terms of "traditional" pve (dungeon runs, raids, etc) that relies heavily on gear scores and bumping up gear power so that players can take on every increasingly powerful monsters, would have presented the perfect opportunity to implement a more horizontal progression system with limited gear gap, and combat/class interaction honed for pvp encounters.

Unfortunately from what I can tell it seems to be highly gear based with pvp-unfriendly mechanics like potion spamming and little in the way of group synergy in pvp combat. I'll still be playing it though (Oceanics will be able to play!!!) since it appears to have many amazing and fresh elements. GW2 or ESO is always going to draw me back though until a solid pvp replacement comes out.

Aelious · December 2015

reeereee said:

Again, from what I'm hearing there is very little to be gained and much to lose from PvP. This isn't Dark Fall.

I'm looking at the OP's numbers and it seem they need to sell 15 costumes to get one unupgraded ring. (Unless I'm not seeing the upgrade on it) Doesn't seem super troubling to me so far.

Because of our conversation you may have missed this, I had at first:

saurus123 said:

reeereee said:

I fail to see why I should be concerned some people are getting to +20 when there is very little content to compete over.

If items related to upgrading were sold in the cash shop then you would have a much stronger claim. If all the whales are forced to buy costumes and sell them to get rich I see the price of costumes being very low.

items needed for upgrades are sold in cash shop in form of RNG boxes

and if its not right here in beta it will come after release
if you think you are safe and ur NA/EU version wont have this you are naive

YashaX · December 2015

hyutei said:

After reading few pages i will say this,BDO is PAY2WIN 100%
You say gw2 does the same thing,no they dont,cos even if you spend cash and buy gold with your cash,you wont be any stronger then other people,cos what it comes down to is skill,some games like that work even if there are cash shop items that you can sell for gold,they still will not be pay2win

But lets say ArcheAge,in a way BDO and ArcheAge are identical games,archeage was ruined by cash shop items,cos guy that spends 1000€ 1 shots people that played months to get their gear

You loving the game and not wanting any bad reviews about the game does not mean BDO is not pay2win,cos sooner or later the game will end up as archeage did,dead

It does not matter if player/npc that grinded the RING or what ever and then sold it to a guy that spent cash to buy that rings,there is no difference if players sell it or NPC do,cos at the end of the day,the guy that grinds few months will not be even close to being as geared up as guy who spends the 1st day 1000€ and buys him self the best possible gear,and no this is not another hate towards Korean,i love their games,TERA/Blade and Soul,played both for quite a long time,ofc Blade and Soul was on China server,but that doesnt matter.

For those that think that this is not Pay2Win i will say this,in few months after the game is released,DO NOT COME BACK HERE AND SAY THE GAME IS PAY2WIN,but both you and i know that you will,cos you have no fkin idea what your talking about,and non of you even knows what pay2win means,in few months most of you will either get raped by some guy who spends 1000€ on gear and will quit the game or some of you will be the ones that spend 1000s of € and will be top on server,which ever ends up,i know that BDO will not last for long time,cos it having great graphics means shit if at the end of the day you cant do anything to the guy that spent a bit more money then you have.

I pretty much agree, except to add that to me there is little difference between a game like Tera/Rift etc in which you can spend real money to get more powerful gear and pawn everyone and something like ESO where it is (or was?) more difficult or impossible to pay real cash to become powerful but required a player to grind for power.

GW2 stands out because like you said it basically all comes down to skill, ping, and teamwork. I can beat the guy that has grinded thousands of hours of pve for the best gear or spent thousands of dollars in the cash shop just through skill and pvp experience. Its the only mmo I have played that is set up that way, and to be frank it is just fucking amazing.

P2w and grind2win are almost synonymous imo, what differentiates a (pvp) game is more whether progression and power are based more on a horizontal or a vertical paradigm.

reeereee · December 2015

Aelious said:

reeereee said:

Again, from what I'm hearing there is very little to be gained and much to lose from PvP. This isn't Dark Fall.

I'm looking at the OP's numbers and it seem they need to sell 15 costumes to get one unupgraded ring. (Unless I'm not seeing the upgrade on it) Doesn't seem super troubling to me so far.

Because of our conversation you may have missed this, I had at first:

saurus123 said:

reeereee said:

I fail to see why I should be concerned some people are getting to +20 when there is very little content to compete over.

If items related to upgrading were sold in the cash shop then you would have a much stronger claim. If all the whales are forced to buy costumes and sell them to get rich I see the price of costumes being very low.

items needed for upgrades are sold in cash shop in form of RNG boxes

and if its not right here in beta it will come after release
if you think you are safe and ur NA/EU version wont have this you are naive

And to that I say: we'll see when it happens. I don't think anyone really though it would be B2P in na/eu either.

The primary critique I'm hearing from people who have actually played the game is not: Omg it was so P2W that I quit!

It is instead: I got to level 50 and there was nothing to do so I quit.

I'm not saying it isn't possible P2W will ruin this game, I'm just saying it's not what I'm most worried about at this point.

Rhygarth · December 2015

Ok OP are we only talking about the korean version of BDO ? if so no one gives a rats ass if its P2W

and if we are talking about NA/EU we dont fully know whats going to be in the shop yet as no one has seen it and also we dont know if the costumes will be tradable in NA/EU

so what is your problem ? the fact that korean is P2W or the fact you just dont know whats going to happen in NA/EU ?

Asariasha · December 2015

From my experience, pay-2-win means that you must buy certain items from the game publisher in order to be able to compete with other players. For example, certain MMOs offer weapons in their ingame shops that are more powerful than other in the game acquirable weapons. That's the classic idea of pay-2-win.

What the OP describes is not pay-2-win. It is an example on how to make impatient customers spend real money on their game.

fafdsfr · December 2015

I have a question; it may have been addressed already, but I'd rather not go insane reading some of these posts.

You're saying the only way to get enough gold to buy high end items is by selling cash shop costumes.

My question is this: How did someone afford the costume you put on the cash shop? Someone had to buy it for you to get the gold, and there's no way they sold a different cash shop costume to afford it, since they'd have just bought the costume they wanted in the first place.

saurus123 · December 2015

Asariasha said:

From my experience, pay-2-win means that you must buy certain items from the game publisher in order to be able to compete with other players. For example, certain MMOs offer weapons in their ingame shops that are more powerful than other in the game acquirable weapons. That's the classic idea of pay-2-win.

What the OP describes is not pay-2-win. It is an example on how to make impatient customers spend real money on their game.

you need to buy looting pets and bag space or your gameplay will be a horror

Gdemami · December 2015

fafdsfr said:

I have a question; it may have been addressed already, but I'd rather not go insane reading some of these posts.

You're saying the only way to get enough gold to buy high end items is by selling cash shop costumes.

My question is this: How did someone afford the costume you put on the cash shop? Someone had to buy it for you to get the gold, and there's no way they sold a different cash shop costume to afford it, since they'd have just bought the costume they wanted in the first place.

1 person might not be able to afford to buy 10 costumes, but you can sell 10 costumes to 10 different people.

Still nonsense tho...

Maurgrim · December 2015

If items that gives you boosts thats only obtainable from cash shop then yes It's P2W if sead items are found also in the gameworld or can be crafted then no its not P2W.

Torque2484 · December 2015

saurus123 said:

Asariasha said:

From my experience, pay-2-win means that you must buy certain items from the game publisher in order to be able to compete with other players. For example, certain MMOs offer weapons in their ingame shops that are more powerful than other in the game acquirable weapons. That's the classic idea of pay-2-win.

What the OP describes is not pay-2-win. It is an example on how to make impatient customers spend real money on their game.

you need to buy looting pets and bag space or your gameplay will be a horror

Ummm..... I am fine looting mobs on my own and in NA/EU you do not need to buy bag space, you are given bags for completing quest, and yes I did play CBT1 and can confirm that's true.

fafdsfr said:

I have a question; it may have been addressed already, but I'd rather not go insane reading some of these posts.

You're saying the only way to get enough gold to buy high end items is by selling cash shop costumes.

My question is this: How did someone afford the costume you put on the cash shop? Someone had to buy it for you to get the gold, and there's no way they sold a different cash shop costume to afford it, since they'd have just bought the costume they wanted in the first place.

No that's the thing you can buy end game items by lets wait for it ................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................ Playing the game how it was meant to be played. They are complaining that in the Korean version you can sell Vanity outfits to get money quicker to buy end game items quicker. Yet to have end game items or enchanted gear you need more of said gear to actually enchant it with, and I have talked with multiple streamers that actually play on the KR servers, that have none of these said problems even though they are in guilds and such.

In the NA/EU CBT1 beta they have said they are not going to allow trading of any sort besides health and magic potions. Also the PvP that everyone is talking about is basically fixated on the Guild War system, yes there is open world PvP but there is a gigantic penalty for killing players, such as after killing three people you because FFA and it is very hard to get the Karma points lets just call it that back down to where you won't be FFA.

To be honest I could care less about someone killing me in any sort of way this game does not have a corpse looting system. Also Daum was trying out the OW PvP at level 30 they did not think they were going to keep it that way at all.

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