Black Desert is pay 2 win.

viletot0 · December 2015

even if the game is "pay to win" doesn't matter to me in the slightest. I don't play mmorpg's to "win" I enjoy the game at my own pace. I won't buy from the cash shop and if someone is more powerful than me thats fine. I have money to spend in the cash shop if I wanted, I just choose not to. I really don't understand people that won't play a game if someone else might have an advantage. I'm excited about this game because the combat looks fun and more importantly, there is a lot of seamless open world to explore.

time007 · December 2015

viletot0 said:

even if the game is "pay to win" doesn't matter to me in the slightest. I don't play mmorpg's to "win" I enjoy the game at my own pace. I won't buy from the cash shop and if someone is more powerful than me thats fine. I have money to spend in the cash shop if I wanted, I just choose not to. I really don't understand people that won't play a game if someone else might have an advantage. I'm excited about this game because the combat looks fun and more importantly, there is a lot of seamless open world to explore.

honestly this thread is a moot point. You have to buy the game to play it. It is B2P. All the people who complain, cry etc, are usually people who want to play for free. Sooooo, most of these complainers won't actually play the game.

Since its B2P i really feel like the players will be much more tame compared to the F2P shit show we always get in F2P games. So thats cool. The B2P players were mostly cool in GW2. I mean yes over time you run into jerks, elitists, trolls etc. But in general having to B2P weeds out all the anti social flamers, trolls etc.

Torque2484 · December 2015

Can we please have a community moderator close this thread now this arguing and bickering over something so god damn stupid should be done now.

zaberfangx · December 2015

Waterlily said:

EponyxDamor said:

Waterlily said:

Which means what exactly? Do fans of the game even know what they're getting into or are you just hoping that you're not going to get screwed over royally.

Have you gotten any guarantees at all? You can already exchange RL cash for in-game currency. Do you know where it stops?

What are they going to add to the cash shop in 2 months? Do you know?

That's the thing with these games, you have no idea what you're getting into.

Guess you should never play any games, then ... Since ... Well, you never actually know.

That's the thing, we do know. We know the track record of Korean F2P when it comes to monetization. Look at every game from Nexon and NCSoft.

I'm going get the game my self did play the korean F2P I liked it but never got to the point when cash shop would been the player of the game if people wanted more power. But the pvp may kill the game befor alot worry about cash shop being p2w I have not seen a Korean pvp game come over NA that did really well. And when that happens hard p2w items start showing up to keep the game out of the red.

Allein · December 2015

So in conclusion, BDO is P2W and many are fine with it. Or it isn't and some people are fine with it.

If you don't fall into either category, move along.

Is what it is and they sure aren't going to change it.

Seems to be working so far in the other versions.

YashaX · December 2015

If you can pay money to get an advantage it is p2w. The thing is, p2w is not necessarily a bad thing and the impact it has on a game can vary considerably depending on how the game it set up.

For example in GW2 you can exchange game currency for gems (basically real money), so that game is on paper as p2w as you can get. However, since it has totally normalized (no gear/level differences) skill-based group pvp as its main competitive arena, a level boosting system for its WvW with easily obtainable mid-tier gear and a reasonable gap between gear tiers in terms of power, and no open world pvp, there is very little to no sense of what usually comes to mind when people think of the term "p2w". Indeed, despite the ability to basically straight out buy power with cash, GW2 feels more balanced to me than games like ESO and pre-cash shop WoW, in terms of pvp at least.

On the complete opposite end of the spectrum recently we had ArchAge. This game had the gall to charge a sub to play the full version of the game AND have an aggressive p2w system that had a huge impact on the game. It would take a long time to detail the depths of that system, but in short being able to buy everything from actual play time (labor) to powerful game changing items that can be used from level 1 (houses, boats, etc) combined with open world pvp and huge gear gaps made it the worst p2w system I have seen recently.

BDO looks like the p2w impact could be similar to something like we have in Tera judging by what the OP says about enchanting, but at least we don't have to also pay a sub to enjoy the full game (unlike in AA), and there are also plenty of mechanics (trade/farming/exploration/world-building) that don't require the "best gear" for us to enjoy.

Allein · December 2015

Waterlily said:

Kyleran said:

coretex666 said:

OP's example is P2W as hell. I used to play a game like this a long time ago. It made me spend loads of RL cash on items from cash shop that I sold in the player market for ingame gold for which I bought equip in the player market. Those were the days

"Made" you spend loads of RL cash?

Or offered you a choice which you decided to act upon?

Many of those games don't offer you a choice but to quit. The difference between a +0 and +15 is massive in these games. I'm sure it's no different in BDO. The content gets increasingly harder for people with +0, they're increasingly shunned in PVE and PVP, and the only choices you speak of, are spending RL cash or quit. For most it's quit once they realized how much money they're spending.

Plenty of people know what games we're talking about.

What other games do or have done does not matter at all.

Regardless if BDO is Korean or XYZ, it is it's own thing. Own pros/cons.

If you haven't played it, not sure how you can believe you non-related experiences mean anything.

If people feel the need to buy something, oh well, BDO offers plenty of ways to earn silver to purchase things off the AH. Your view that people HAVE to spend cash is simply incorrect.

Curious what part of PVE people are shunned into BDO with crap gear or why they would even have it to begin with. The speed at which people can reach "end game" lvl/gear (not ultimate super best) is pretty easy compared to a lot of other games. Those that want to be the very bestest ever will have to put in more, just like all other games.

grafh · December 2015

GeezerGamer said:

grafh said:

This is madness lol. Basically it seems like people are arguing the definition of p2w. As someone who has watched the evolution of games, I offer my input again.

Pay-to-win(p2w) is when a developer sells virtual items that give bonuses to the player that spent real money to obtain, that are not obtainable through normal means in the game. Examples would be any item that is stronger than anything that you can obtain in the game through regular play. Weapons, mounts,potions that effect stats(exp pots are not included as this simply speeds up a process that will naturally happen), costumes that have bonuses, etc.

That's it! there is no debating the definition (you can change the wording a bit, but the core meaning is the same. Its NOT WHAT YOU FEEL IS P2W! That's like trying to argue that a cat is a canine because it looks similar to a dog. Sure its similar, but they are two totally different species.

Just because you feel it's unfair that people can spend money on pearls, buy cosmetic items, sell cosmetic items on AH, and then buy said powerful item, doesn't means its P2W. Is this a good practice? that's questionable. If i make six figures a year, but I only have 8 hours a week to play vs someone who spends 70 hours a week playing, but has no money to spend on the game, then it becomes a perfect balance. I invest money which I have lots of to offset the time i cant spend in the game(bby buying and selling cosmetic items). The guy with all the time gets to buy items that he doesnt have the real money to spend.

So according to many of you, the guy with the time and not the money, should have no chance at the cosmetic items. They should be bound to your account. And the person with money and no time, but wants to enjoy the game as well, should just be sol?

Riiiight. I can make up a definition of P2W and force it on everyone else too. But OK, fine, let's play along with this definition. Let's not call it P2W since it doesn't meet your personal definition. What does that change? Since we can't call BDO "P2W", Somehow the mechanics that allow players heavily into RMT to ultimately acquire gear that players who only grind can never get no longer work? (And that's exactly how RMT+RNG cash shops work.....RMT players get gear that grinders simply cannot get....Ever. You'll see.)

When are people going to realize this stupid game of semantics over "P2W" definitions is exactly what these publishers love? They know if the generally accepted term for P2W is whether or not the game sells "God's Armor" in the cash shop or not, then all they have to do is make it work in other ways. They have gotten very creative at hiding it.

That's just the thing. I didn't make up this definition. It's an industry definition. Its not even a definition thats really ambiguous, at least not like love is. I dont see how players who only grind cant get this gear? Why is it that they cant get this gear? Not to mention the game isnt even released yet. If they sell items that increase your chances of enchanting something to +15 for example. you make said item. You sell said item. Who's to say a person who grinded cant afford it?

According to may peoples logic, World of tanks and World of Warships would be P2W. There is no auction house though. The gold you buy, can be obtained normally through the game. Buying a membership just gets you more exp and silver while you play. You move ahead faster, but a person that its grinding it out will get there eventually. They say they are not pay to win, but it doesnt matter what they say huh? if you feel its p2w, then it is?

Will BDO be p2w? Eventually I think it will be. They will sell account bound items that give you boosts. KR version has costumes that have bonuses already, but these can be sold on AH. whether that has changed or not i'm not sure. We will have to see how to localization works. This is not NEXON. So its not fair to compare. Lets wait and see what happens before we start pre judging.

Thupli · December 2015

Just as p2w as GW2. Maybe less, we will see. With how much grind gw2 has and encourages gem purchases, and how much gold and gem purchases can buy wvw and pve gear and highest weapon stat gear, BDO COULD beat it easily. COULD.

Quesa · December 2015

Every game has RMT and P2W aspects, it's the inevitable conclusion to the years of everyone yelling about how non-subscription games and their payment models are far superior to subscription games.

GeezerGamer · December 2015

YashaX said:

If you can pay money to get an advantage it is p2w. The thing is, p2w is not necessarily a bad thing and the impact it has on a game can vary considerably depending on how the game it set up.

For example in GW2 you can exchange game currency for gems (basically real money), so that game is on paper as p2w as you can get. However, since it has totally normalized (no gear/level differences) skill-based group pvp as its main competitive arena, a level boosting system for its WvW with easily obtainable mid-tier gear and a reasonable gap between gear tiers in terms of power, and no open world pvp, there is very little to no sense of what usually comes to mind when people think of the term "p2w". Indeed, despite the ability to basically straight out buy power with cash, GW2 feels more balanced to me than games like ESO and pre-cash shop WoW, in terms of pvp at least.

On the complete opposite end of the spectrum recently we had ArchAge. This game had the gall to charge a sub to play the full version of the game AND have an aggressive p2w system that had a huge impact on the game. It would take a long time to detail the depths of that system, but in short being able to buy everything from actual play time (labor) to powerful game changing items that can be used from level 1 (houses, boats, etc) combined with open world pvp and huge gear gaps made it the worst p2w system I have seen recently.

BDO looks like the p2w impact could be similar to something like we have in Tera judging by what the OP says about enchanting, but at least we don't have to also pay a sub to enjoy the full game (unlike in AA), and there are also plenty of mechanics (trade/farming/exploration/world-building) that don't require the "best gear" for us to enjoy.

I would think it's probably going to revolve around how tight the circles are. Meaning how much influence on the average person's day to day gaming whales will have. If for the most part, the whales operate in their circles and the casuals in their own circles and they don't really come into much contact with each other, then this type of set up can work. But if the whales can exert more influence over everyone else's game and really create issues for casuals, then this game is not likely to be a highly successful title.

time007 · December 2015

Can a moderator close this thread? (note to self: how to make a huge thread, type "upcoming game" add the words "is P2W".)

reeereee · December 2015

At first I started on page 9 of this thread and was like: Yeah! That's P2W!

Then I went back and read the first page and looked a little closer and realized so much of this thread boils down to simply: Korean game so must be P2W!

Here I though this was another thread about P2W when it was really another thread about how much some people hate Korean games.

Kiyoris · December 2015

time007 said:

but tell you what, next major game that comes out, I'll create a thread that says "XYZ game is P2W", just to let you know you're not clever

It will never be as popular as mine, making successful threads takes skill

MMORPG.COM should give me a share of their profits, considering the amount of traffic I generated for them

time007 · December 2015

[mod edit]

[mod edit]

In other cases they would just not believe, and be like "these articles you are pulling up are lies, they aren't true. how do you know they are true etc etc"" i.e. so if i put up a definition on the internet of P2W that completely debunks her own "personal" definition of P2W she just folded and retreated to her personal definition as being the universal truth.

So thats probably why the OP never actually discussed the counter points stated in this thread. oh well.

Kiyoris · December 2015

[mod edit]

Completely false, no one in this thread has been flaming.
[mod edit]

Torque2484 · December 2015

Ummm actually before I finally leave there is no rule that I can't cuss as long as it's not directed at anyone and not once have I directed the cuss at anyone so no I have not done anything wrong and yes you have started a flame thread towards a game that you have no reason to complain about because you live in Beijing so peace out.

Henchdwarf · December 2015

why are so few people in this thread able to understand that paying rl money to warp light years ahead creates a class of players who fundamentally change the games economy, thus eventually rendering non paying players completely powerless and irrevocably left behind.

winning an mmo is not merely completing its content, but controlling its players. this is done through the economy. whether its top tier gear or material requirement funnels, the paying players will use their RL money to exert game changing influence over everyone else.

people pedantically opposing the OP because "TECHNICALLY IT DOESENT MEAN YOU CANT ENJOY JUST WALKING WITH NO GEAR ON" or whatever other excuse they are defending BDO with are completely paving over the practical reality, which is the only reality that matters. That BDO is hypothetically not P2W does not change the reality that it is fundamentally P2W, and that's how it will manifest.

reeereee · December 2015

Lester_Creech said:

why are so few people in this thread able to understand that paying rl money to warp light years ahead creates a class of players who fundamentally change the games economy, thus eventually rendering non paying players completely powerless and irrevocably left behind.

winning an mmo is not merely completing its content, but controlling its players. this is done through the economy. whether its top tier gear or material requirement funnels, the paying players will use their RL money to exert game changing influence over everyone else.

people pedantically opposing the OP because "TECHNICALLY IT DOESENT MEAN YOU CANT ENJOY JUST WALKING WITH NO GEAR ON" or whatever other excuse they are defending BDO with are completely paving over the practical reality, which is the only reality that matters. That BDO is hypothetically not P2W does not change the reality that it is fundamentally P2W, and that's how it will manifest.

Last I heard it was very easy to hit lvl 50 and there is little to do once you got there so I don't know where you are getting these ideas.

Aelious · December 2015

reeereee said:

Lester_Creech said:

why are so few people in this thread able to understand that paying rl money to warp light years ahead creates a class of players who fundamentally change the games economy, thus eventually rendering non paying players completely powerless and irrevocably left behind.

winning an mmo is not merely completing its content, but controlling its players. this is done through the economy. whether its top tier gear or material requirement funnels, the paying players will use their RL money to exert game changing influence over everyone else.

people pedantically opposing the OP because "TECHNICALLY IT DOESENT MEAN YOU CANT ENJOY JUST WALKING WITH NO GEAR ON" or whatever other excuse they are defending BDO with are completely paving over the practical reality, which is the only reality that matters. That BDO is hypothetically not P2W does not change the reality that it is fundamentally P2W, and that's how it will manifest.

Last I heard it was very easy to hit lvl 50 and there is little to do once you got there so I don't know where you are getting these ideas.

Because that isn't the "real level" where power is concerned. That power lies in the enchanting of items, currently at +20 if I'm not mistaken. That is accomplished though an RNG systems that uses other items to enchant the ones you have equipped. That's where the problem with the ability to sell cash shop items in the in game market comes from.

Going further, expanding on what @Lester_Creech stated, there is a node/market economy system in BDO as well, which is a fantastic aspect of what makes the MMO special, but can also be effected by what Lester was talking about.

Aelious · December 2015

Because context is always important, I'm a huge supporter of BDO as an MMO. It feels like a AA 2.0 and has so much depth in everything except maybe character creation. If Daum was to announce today that they would have a PvE server I would purchase a pack and be impatiently waiting for release. It really has a large, live world to explore and be a part of.

I can't support another AA though. Well, I didn't support AA but would have, had they offered a PvE option. A big reason for this is the ability to buy into power. Sure, it doesn't mean you will be powerful but if someone's entertainment is OWPvP and they had the money to spend, why wouldn't they?

reeereee · December 2015

Aelious said:

reeereee said:

Lester_Creech said:

why are so few people in this thread able to understand that paying rl money to warp light years ahead creates a class of players who fundamentally change the games economy, thus eventually rendering non paying players completely powerless and irrevocably left behind.

winning an mmo is not merely completing its content, but controlling its players. this is done through the economy. whether its top tier gear or material requirement funnels, the paying players will use their RL money to exert game changing influence over everyone else.

people pedantically opposing the OP because "TECHNICALLY IT DOESENT MEAN YOU CANT ENJOY JUST WALKING WITH NO GEAR ON" or whatever other excuse they are defending BDO with are completely paving over the practical reality, which is the only reality that matters. That BDO is hypothetically not P2W does not change the reality that it is fundamentally P2W, and that's how it will manifest.

Last I heard it was very easy to hit lvl 50 and there is little to do once you got there so I don't know where you are getting these ideas.

Because that isn't the "real level" where power is concerned. That power lies in the enchanting of items, currently at +20 if I'm not mistaken. That is accomplished though an RNG systems that uses other items to enchant the ones you have equipped. That's where the problem with the ability to sell cash shop items in the in game market comes from.

Going further, expanding on what @Lester_Creech stated, there is a node/market economy system in BDO as well, which is a fantastic aspect of what makes the MMO special, but can also be effected by what Lester was talking about.

I fail to see why I should be concerned some people are getting to +20 when there is very little content to compete over.

If items related to upgrading were sold in the cash shop then you would have a much stronger claim. If all the whales are forced to buy costumes and sell them to get rich I see the price of costumes being very low.

saurus123 · December 2015

reeereee said:

I fail to see why I should be concerned some people are getting to +20 when there is very little content to compete over.

If items related to upgrading were sold in the cash shop then you would have a much stronger claim. If all the whales are forced to buy costumes and sell them to get rich I see the price of costumes being very low.

items needed for upgrades are sold in cash shop in form of RNG boxes

and if its not right here in beta it will come after release
if you think you are safe and ur NA/EU version wont have this you are naive

Aelious · December 2015

reeereee said:

Aelious said:

reeereee said:
Last I heard it was very easy to hit lvl 50 and there is little to do once you got there so I don't know where you are getting these ideas.

Because that isn't the "real level" where power is concerned. That power lies in the enchanting of items, currently at +20 if I'm not mistaken. That is accomplished though an RNG systems that uses other items to enchant the ones you have equipped. That's where the problem with the ability to sell cash shop items in the in game market comes from.

Going further, expanding on what @Lester_Creech stated, there is a node/market economy system in BDO as well, which is a fantastic aspect of what makes the MMO special, but can also be effected by what Lester was talking about.

I fail to see why I should be concerned some people are getting to +20 when there is very little content to compete over.

If items related to upgrading were sold in the cash shop then you would have a much stronger claim. If all the whales are forced to buy costumes and sell them to get rich I see the price of costumes being very low.

The issue isn't with what can be fought over, it's the power discrepancy between those fighting. In an MMO with PvP systems, power, and how it can be obtained, is paramount.

You can see the pictures in the OP for pricing. I assume prices fluctuate a little, markets always do, but it gives a good picture into the effect. I see what you are saying but you should see the difference between the gear dropped in game and the outfits they sell, the level of detail is amazing and I doubt the demand goes down very far.

Aelious · December 2015

Ug, these forums..

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