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France sues Steam, argues you own your account and game, not Valve.

KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
edited December 2015 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
The French consumer association is taking Valve to court. They argue that according to EU law (not just French), you own the game when you buy it, including any assets, accounts or other things you create.

And, since you own the games and account, regardless if it is digital or not, you have a right to resell it.

100% agree. If you buy something, it should be your property. This is how it used to work, until these corporate bloodsuckers changed it.

http://www.vg247.com/2015/12/18/valve-sued-by-a-french-consumer-association-over-steams-subscriber-agreement/




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Comments

  • GruntyGrunty Member EpicPosts: 8,657
    "I used to think the worst thing in life was to be all alone.  It's not.  The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel all alone."  Robin Williams
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,215
    100% disagree. 

    So any country can change the law to whatever they want and then online companies have to comply to 100 different  laws in 100 different countries.

    Yeah I don't think so.

  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    DMKano said:
     any country can change the law to whatever they want and then online companies have to comply to 100 different  laws in 100 different countries.

    Yeah I don't think so.

    haha, that is how the world works pumpkin
  • GestankfaustGestankfaust Member UncommonPosts: 1,989
    Kiyoris said:
    DMKano said:
     any country can change the law to whatever they want and then online companies have to comply to 100 different  laws in 100 different countries.

    Yeah I don't think so.

    haha, that is how the world works pumpkin
    Haha..not quite pumpkin. Do some research for Diablo's sake

    "This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."

  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    edited December 2015
    Haha..not quite pumpkin. Do some research for Diablo's sake
    Companies need to abide by local regulations.

    While some companies try to find loopholes, like Google claiming they don't need to abide by local regulations because they have a main office is another EU country. Those are loopholes that are quickly being shut down.

    So yes, it is how it works, pumpkin. A company has to abide by the regulations of the country they do business in, that's not something new or shocking, it's how the world works.
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,767
    edited December 2015
    Kiyoris said:
    DMKano said:
     any country can change the law to whatever they want and then online companies have to comply to 100 different  laws in 100 different countries.

    Yeah I don't think so.

    haha, that is how the world works pumpkin
    I was about to say,
    If you want to do business in said country..................


    Anyway, I suppose we will see "how it works" soon enough.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,004
    If I ran Valve I'd just stop marketing in France, it's a small market and would send a message to other regulatory agencies considering overextending consumer "rights."

    Look folks, the TOS is very clear, you don't like it don't buy from Steam, I don't.

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 27,088
    So "France" isn't suing Valve it's a consumer association. From what I can see it's not government run. Unless someone finds something that indicates it is I think the title is a bit misleading.

    They run this website:

    http://www.quechoisir.org/

    So it seems it's "almost" like an activist version of "Consumer Reports".




  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    edited December 2015

    Kyleran said:
    If I ran Valve I'd just stop marketing in France, it's a small market and would send a message to other regulatory agencies considering overextending consumer "rights."

    Look folks, the TOS is very clear, you don't like it don't buy from Steam, I don't.
    Longer analysis here: http://tweakers.net/nieuws/106943/franse-consumentenbond-klaagt-valve-aan-wegens-verbod-op-doorverkoop-op-steam.html

    The interesting part is this:




    "even though according to European law, reselling of games is permitted"

    If Valve loses this battle, it might set a precedent for every EU nation.


  • NasaNasa Member UncommonPosts: 696
    Kyleran said:
    If I ran Valve I'd just stop marketing in France, it's a small market and would send a message to other regulatory agencies considering overextending consumer "rights."
    If France is such a small market I wonder why so many game companies bother to translate their game to French.
  • alexhpy98721alexhpy98721 Member UncommonPosts: 264
    This is why its better to get them from torrents, its yours and so on rather than steam where even after you pay for it its not yours.

    After all, laws should be changed to benefit the people not the rich companies. If you pay for it, its yours... games used to be like that.

    So if a game releases through a platform and only through that just get it from a torrent and that is it... eventually they will learn and do what the consumers want as long as the consumer stands his ground.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 34,004
    Nasa said:
    Kyleran said:
    If I ran Valve I'd just stop marketing in France, it's a small market and would send a message to other regulatory agencies considering overextending consumer "rights."
    If France is such a small market I wonder why so many game companies bother to translate their game to French.
    So they can sell them in Quebec?

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    edited December 2015
    Nasa said:
    Kyleran said:
    If I ran Valve I'd just stop marketing in France, it's a small market and would send a message to other regulatory agencies considering overextending consumer "rights."
    If France is such a small market I wonder why so many game companies bother to translate their game to French.
    It's partly because the market isn't so small. (there are many larger markets, but disposable income in France as a Western nation, is high)

    But secondly, in France, almost everything is dubbed. That's not the case in every European nation. If you turn on a French or German channel, English is dubbed with voice actors, in other European nations you usually see subtitles.

    Like...you can find a French dubbed version of Friends...but you'll have a hard time finding it in Italian or Dutch, but you will find a subbed version of those languages. It's partly cultural, but also partly the size of the countries.

    (and not to judge here, but this is why some French and German peeps, have rather shoddy English skill compared to some other EU countries, I'm perfectly bilingual, but many people are not)
  • TofkeTofke Member UncommonPosts: 339
    They should have looked into it years ago... that being said I agree even if they are behind on the times.
    Valve (and other platforms) should consider that we own the games and that we should be able to re-sell a game (hell they can even get a percentage of it). I felt the same on refunds, yes you'll have people abusing a system but why should the majority be punished for it.

    In the end it would give us consumers a better deal and a company like Valve doesn't need our defending or us consumers shooting in our own foot.

    Don't think I would use it, but it has always bugged me that we had lesser rights on digital games than we had with physical copies.

    Some sort of compromise would already be great. For ex. not for online/account based games (which I'm pretty sure would happen if something changes).
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,839
    The movie Rollerball predicted that Corporations would one day run the world.  Well they are well on their way.  Hopefully people will wake up to see what's going on before they have zero rights left.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    edited December 2015
    The movie Rollerball predicted that Corporations would one day run the world.  Well they are well on their way.  Hopefully people will wake up to see what's going on before they have zero rights left.
    Ikr. This is why I still buy movies on disc (DVD or Blu Ray) instead of paying for streaming services. Besides the fact that a movie on disc is far higher quality (lol many of my DVD movies are higher quality than "HD" streaming), but more importantly, I own the movie, and can use it in my PC, disc player, I am also allowed to make back-up copies. Also, the times I watch movies is often when our internet goes down, and that's exactly when streaming services don't work, and my disc player does.
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 3,882
    Kyleran said:
    Nasa said:
    Kyleran said:
    If I ran Valve I'd just stop marketing in France, it's a small market and would send a message to other regulatory agencies considering overextending consumer "rights."
    If France is such a small market I wonder why so many game companies bother to translate their game to French.
    So they can sell them in Quebec?
    No one cares about Quebec lol
  • QuizzicalQuizzical Member LegendaryPosts: 21,003
    Kiyoris said:
    Haha..not quite pumpkin. Do some research for Diablo's sake
    Companies need to abide by local regulations.

    While some companies try to find loopholes, like Google claiming they don't need to abide by local regulations because they have a main office is another EU country. Those are loopholes that are quickly being shut down.

    So yes, it is how it works, pumpkin. A company has to abide by the regulations of the country they do business in, that's not something new or shocking, it's how the world works.
    So if Doesnotexistan has a law prohibiting people from addressing others as "pumpkin", does that mean they can sue you for doing so on a web site that people access from there?  At what point is an online company with no physical assets in an area required to abide by the laws of that area?

    And what does it mean for things to be sellable?  Would it mean that MMORPGs can't do anything to stop gold spammers?  Would it prohibit games from making items that are bind on pickup, bind on equip, or otherwise no longer sellable?  What if game balance changes make previously sellable items now worthless?  Could a company be sued for that?  If not, then where do you draw the line?
  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    edited December 2015
    Quizzical said:
    So if Doesnotexistan has a law prohibiting people from addressing others as "pumpkin", does that mean they can sue you for doing so on a web site that people access from there?
    You might be surprised that the answer is YES. The site owner could get sued.

    In fact, there are several laws like that.

    One is the Cookie Law. If your site gets accessed in Europe, you need to tell users that you use cookies, and they need to give consent, if you don't, you can get sued.

    All larger sites abide by this, and most web developers know this. Every large site I go to, has an agreement box, including all major foreign sites. This isn't the case in the US, I know because I have family in the US and they don't have the cookie box, even though they use the same site.

    https://www.cookielaw.org/the-cookie-law/




    official EU site:

    http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm


  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 3,882
    Kiyoris said:
    Quizzical said:
    So if Doesnotexistan has a law prohibiting people from addressing others as "pumpkin", does that mean they can sue you for doing so on a web site that people access from there?
    You might be surprised that the answer is YES. The site owner could get sued.

    In fact, there are several laws like that.

    One is the Cookie Law. If your site gets accessed in Europe, you need to tell users that you use cookies, and they need to give consent, if you don't, you can get sued.

    All larger sites abide by this, and most web developers know this. Every large site I go to, has an agreement box, including all major foreign sites. This isn't the case in the US, I know because I have family in the US and they don't have the cookie box, even though they use the same site.

    https://www.cookielaw.org/the-cookie-law/




    official EU site:

    http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm


    Not quite the same thing. If I'm from Doesnotexistan and you call me pumpkin and you live in the US does that mean I can now sue you?
  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    Kefo said:
    Kiyoris said:
    Quizzical said:
    So if Doesnotexistan has a law prohibiting people from addressing others as "pumpkin", does that mean they can sue you for doing so on a web site that people access from there?
    You might be surprised that the answer is YES. The site owner could get sued.

    In fact, there are several laws like that.

    One is the Cookie Law. If your site gets accessed in Europe, you need to tell users that you use cookies, and they need to give consent, if you don't, you can get sued.

    All larger sites abide by this, and most web developers know this. Every large site I go to, has an agreement box, including all major foreign sites. This isn't the case in the US, I know because I have family in the US and they don't have the cookie box, even though they use the same site.

    https://www.cookielaw.org/the-cookie-law/




    official EU site:

    http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm


    Not quite the same thing. If I'm from Doesnotexistan and you call me pumpkin and you live in the US does that mean I can now sue you?
    If there is a law against the word pumpkin in Doesnotexistan, you could sue the site owner yes. Not me.

    It's the same with the cookie law, if you allow your site to cross international borders, it has to abide by local regulations, especially when it comes to privacy.
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,320
    edited December 2015
    Kyleran said:
    If I ran Valve I'd just stop marketing in France, it's a small market and would send a message to other regulatory agencies considering overextending consumer "rights."

    Look folks, the TOS is very clear, you don't like it don't buy from Steam, I don't.

    And by extension all of the EU ...... bigger market than the US remember.


    In addition the EU Supreme court has been very clear on TOSs: they cannot override the law of the land. Which - if you stop and think about it - not only makes sense but is no different from e.g. shops having signs saying if what you buy is broken its not our fault. And a host of other attempts over the years to let companies ignore laws.
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,215
    edited December 2015
    Kiyoris said:
    Haha..not quite pumpkin. Do some research for Diablo's sake
    Companies need to abide by local regulations.

    While some companies try to find loopholes, like Google claiming they don't need to abide by local regulations because they have a main office is another EU country. Those are loopholes that are quickly being shut down.

    So yes, it is how it works, pumpkin. A company has to abide by the regulations of the country they do business in, that's not something new or shocking, it's how the world works.
    No.

    Consider a mom and pop shop in US that has a website need to abide by FRENCH law???

    What online companies (that are smart) do is they have authentication, and all payment processing done inside of US - so that they are essentially self contained like a mom and pop business with a website.

    if a french citizen decides to go and shop online from this mom-and-pop shop for software - that happens to be in US - why would french law apply? It doesn't.

    You can do online business in any country AND NOT HAVE LEGALLY BINDING BUSINESS (no local office, no local payment processing or login servers) so no local presence there - this is the loophole that you are missing.

    If you have no legally binding business establishement in France - French law does not apply.

    Valve's problem is that they do have a presence in France - which is why this lawsuit exists - but other online companies who don't (like many chinese companies) - they are out of reach of french law, because they have no business footprint whatsover in France - it's 100% online.


  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,215
    edited December 2015

    Kiyoris said:
    DMKano said:
     any country can change the law to whatever they want and then online companies have to comply to 100 different  laws in 100 different countries.

    Yeah I don't think so.

    haha, that is how the world works pumpkin
    I was about to say,
    If you want to do business in said country..................


    Anyway, I suppose we will see "how it works" soon enough.

    If you have a business presence in that country (like an office, or you do payment processing in that country or authentication)  - then YES - but if you don't have any of that and you are just a website that French citizens for example can access from France that runs in China - French laws do not apply.


  • KiyorisKiyoris Member RarePosts: 2,130
    DMKano said:

    You can do online business in any country AND NOT HAVE LEGALLY BINDING BUSINESS presence there
    false

    You are required to abide by regulations of the country you do business in.

    Wallmart can't sell me a gun in Europe just because it's legal in the US.
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