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PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF (YOUR) GOD.....

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  • VardahothVardahoth Member RarePosts: 1,472
    edited December 2015
    tawess said:
    Vardahoth said:
    There are developers out there who choose to be professionals, and their are companies out there who value professionalism and honesty. One that comes to mind is 8thLight.

    You do understand right that there is a lot more at work producing an item than idealism and hope right. 

    Delays happens, things breaks, suppliers let you down, people let you down, systems fails, economis shift and that is just the simple and easy to understand things. Sometimes... actually scratch that... Often you have to compromise the artistic vision and even integrity in order to either meet your set dealines or deliver a product. Pre-ordering culture is not a developer thing but a publisher thing... It is about them doing what they have set out to do, maximizing profit... Often because they have invested a lot in a product and they need to make enough money back so that their investors keep the faith in them so they in turn can continue to publish... And so on and so forth...

    But if you can find a way to make the games you want cheap enough and find a market big enough through selfpublishing and then avoid the siren call of expanding your business while also maintianing a fanbase that keep buying your games without demanding that you expand on features or do any further development. 

    Sure... you might be able to make a living as a game dev while never going back on any promis or make a compromise. But that is one in a million. 


    Or did you mean anything else by "honesty" and "professionalism"
    no, I do not define "honesty" and "professionalism" as idealism and hope.

    A professional is a loaded term. It is a marker of responsibility and accountability. You are right in saying it is much easier to be a nonprofessional. Nonprofessionals don't have to take responsibility for the job they do - they leave that to their employers. If a nonprofessional makes an error, the employer cleans up the mess (or worse, the customers). But when a professional makes a mistake, he cleans up the mess.

    Honesty is defined by the promises you make. It involves estimated timelines, features, and the product itself. This is where ultimately every gaming industry is failing due to the greed of cheating out it's customers and doing so repeatedly.

    Watch this video and you will see what I mean by honesty and professionalism:
    - (skip the first 5 minutes, he just tries to grab the attention of programmers)

    After you watch the video, then feel free to give your opinion on why professionalism is not desired in the industry, and why I believe eventually it will lead to government regulation.

    At the end of the day, all I have to do is look at the products over the last 10 years, and realize the excuses you listed are the reason the products are like that. If you are all okay with that, then fine. But I am not, so I chose not to give any of my money.

    I Quit.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/436845/page/1 -> http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/436845/what-killed-mmorpgs-for-you/p1

    http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2316034
    .............
    Retired Gamer: all MMORPG's have been destroyed by big business, marketing of false promises, unprofessional game makers, and a generation of "I WIN and GIVE ME NOW" (brought to you by pokeman).

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    edited December 2015
    Vardahoth said:
    After you watch the video, then feel free to give your opinion on why professionalism is not desired in the industry, and why I believe eventually it will lead to government regulation.
    Desired is a synonym of hope.

    A video inspiring people to do something better is idealism.

    So you haven't really addressed the criticism that this is just idealism and hope.

    Idealism shatters when there are concrete examples of things done perfectly.  Keep in mind this is the game industry, not accounting software, so you're not delivering against a completely static list of requirements (because any designer who does that will have designed a game as fun as accounting software.)  So until you provide an example of how someone has made this ideal work in the game industry, it's still idealism and hope.

    Nothing stops you from liking the ideal.  The ideal can even be a fantastic goal to shoot for (and in this case it is).  It's just not realistic given the constraints, but shooting for the goal will at least improve things somewhat (and does improve things somewhat, as most programmers I know already shoot for it; but it's balanced against the desire not to produce games as fun as accounting software, which inevitably results in some compromises that end up improving the product.)

    In fact coming from the design side, my designs end up having to be deliberately more fragile to fit programmer requirements.  I've designed self-balancing systems that dynamically keep themselves fixed and producing the desired gameplay, but sometimes it's too much programming work for what the system does, which results to intentionally designing things worse (simpler) and watching how the predicted problems do spring up and must be fixed manually.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • VardahothVardahoth Member RarePosts: 1,472
    edited December 2015
    Axehilt said:
    Vardahoth said:
    After you watch the video, then feel free to give your opinion on why professionalism is not desired in the industry, and why I believe eventually it will lead to government regulation.
    Desired is a synonym of hope.

    A video inspiring people to do something better is idealism.

    So you haven't really addressed the criticism that this is just idealism and hope.

    Idealism shatters when there are concrete examples of things done perfectly.  Keep in mind this is the game industry, not accounting software, so you're not delivering against a completely static list of requirements (because any designer who does that will have designed a game as fun as accounting software.)  So until you provide an example of how someone has made this ideal work in the game industry, it's still idealism and hope.

    Nothing stops you from liking the ideal.  The ideal can even be a fantastic goal to shoot for (and in this case it is).  It's just not realistic given the constraints, but shooting for the goal will at least improve things somewhat (and does improve things somewhat, as most programmers I know already shoot for it; but it's balanced against the desire not to produce games as fun as accounting software, which inevitably results in some compromises that end up improving the product.)

    In fact coming from the design side, my designs end up having to be deliberately more fragile to fit programmer requirements.  I've designed self-balancing systems that dynamically keep themselves fixed and producing the desired gameplay, but sometimes it's too much programming work for what the system does, which results to intentionally designing things worse (simpler) and watching how the predicted problems do spring up and must be fixed manually.
    Ugh, you again.

    This video was not an inspirational video (it can be taken that way, but it was not the purpose or intent). He is actually the CEO for that company and was telling them the way they were going to do things.

    Who is this person Robert C. Martin, and why should we bother listening to him? Ever hear of agile software development? No? Okay than don't even bother reading further or replying to me. Yes? read on...

    Robert is one of the people who started the meeting with 17 of the worlds best software developers and out of the meeting came the agile movement. He is an author of several successful software books and known very well to be one of the best software developers of the world. Clearly he knows what he is talking about.

    So I say again. Clearly everything I see done in the video game industry goes against what Robert is saying in that video (of what professionalism is), and this is why I call the video game programmers and the industry unprofessional.

    As for your "desired" is "hope" argument, it was a word I tied to the industry and not me (I flat out don't care, they have proven to me without a doubt they are unprofessional and do not deserve any of my money). If the industry "hopes" to remain unprofessional, so be it. If you want to pull the synonym card to discredit what I am saying, well news flash. Go to the synonym website, click on about 20 word links and realize the word you are now on means nothing like the word you started with. Hell i did it in 3, desired > aim> object.

    Once again, Robert even told me himself when I spoke to him over the phone "There are people who make promises that don't keep to them, and do not take responsibility for them. These people are unprofessional." Here I even saved the email and I'll post it as an image for you where he basically said the same thing (edited out personal sensitive information for protection against identity theft):


    Post edited by Vardahoth on

    I Quit.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/436845/page/1 -> http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/436845/what-killed-mmorpgs-for-you/p1

    http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2316034
    .............
    Retired Gamer: all MMORPG's have been destroyed by big business, marketing of false promises, unprofessional game makers, and a generation of "I WIN and GIVE ME NOW" (brought to you by pokeman).

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Vardahoth said:
    Ugh, you again.

    This video was not an inspirational video (it can be taken that way, but it was not the purpose or intent). He is actually the CEO for that company and was telling them the way they were going to do things.

    Who is this person Robert C. Martin, and why should we bother listening to him? Ever hear of agile software development? No? Okay than don't even bother reading further or replying to me. Yes? read on...

    Robert is one of the people who started the meeting with 17 of the worlds best software developers and out of the meeting came the agile movement. He is an author of several successful software books and known very well to be one of the best software developers of the world. Clearly he knows what he is talking about.

    So I say again. Clearly everything I see done in the video game industry goes against what Robert is saying in that video (of what professionalism is), and this is why I call the video game programmers and the industry unprofessional.

    As for your "desired" is "hope" argument, it was a word I tied to the industry and not me (I flat out don't care, they have proven to me without a doubt they are unprofessional and do not deserve any of my money). If the industry "hopes" to remain unprofessional, so be it. If you want to pull the synonym card to discredit what I am saying, well news flash. Go to the synonym website, click on about 20 word links and realize the word you are now on means nothing like the word you started with. Hell i did it in 3, desired > aim> object.

    Once again, Robert even told me himself when I spoke to him over the phone "There are people who make promises that don't keep to them, and do not take responsibility for them. These people are unprofessional." Here I even saved the email and I'll post it as an image for you where he basically said the same thing (edited out personal sensitive information for protection against identity theft):


    You don't seem to get it.  The core criticism leveled at you is you're just spouting idealism and hope.  You don't wave that away by spouting more idealism and hope.  The only thing you can do is admit it's true and there isn't game software development experience behind it.

    As mentioned, ideals aren't necessarily bad. Shooting for the right ideals can be great. It's just tremendously anti-social to go around demanding everyone else in the world strives for perfection (especially when the industry in question is a distinctly different form of software development where the ideals are harder to achieve.)

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • VardahothVardahoth Member RarePosts: 1,472
    edited December 2015
    Axehilt said:
    Vardahoth said:
    Ugh, you again.

    This video was not an inspirational video (it can be taken that way, but it was not the purpose or intent). He is actually the CEO for that company and was telling them the way they were going to do things.

    Who is this person Robert C. Martin, and why should we bother listening to him? Ever hear of agile software development? No? Okay than don't even bother reading further or replying to me. Yes? read on...

    Robert is one of the people who started the meeting with 17 of the worlds best software developers and out of the meeting came the agile movement. He is an author of several successful software books and known very well to be one of the best software developers of the world. Clearly he knows what he is talking about.

    So I say again. Clearly everything I see done in the video game industry goes against what Robert is saying in that video (of what professionalism is), and this is why I call the video game programmers and the industry unprofessional.

    As for your "desired" is "hope" argument, it was a word I tied to the industry and not me (I flat out don't care, they have proven to me without a doubt they are unprofessional and do not deserve any of my money). If the industry "hopes" to remain unprofessional, so be it. If you want to pull the synonym card to discredit what I am saying, well news flash. Go to the synonym website, click on about 20 word links and realize the word you are now on means nothing like the word you started with. Hell i did it in 3, desired > aim> object.

    Once again, Robert even told me himself when I spoke to him over the phone "There are people who make promises that don't keep to them, and do not take responsibility for them. These people are unprofessional." Here I even saved the email and I'll post it as an image for you where he basically said the same thing (edited out personal sensitive information for protection against identity theft):


    You don't seem to get it.  The core criticism leveled at you is you're just spouting idealism and hope.  You don't wave that away by spouting more idealism and hope.  The only thing you can do is admit it's true and there isn't game software development experience behind it.

    As mentioned, ideals aren't necessarily bad. Shooting for the right ideals can be great. It's just tremendously anti-social to go around demanding everyone else in the world strives for perfection (especially when the industry in question is a distinctly different form of software development where the ideals are harder to achieve.)
    Well you can think professionalism is idealism and hope all you want. I'm not going to argue with you anymore. Clearly you have chosen to be unprofessional, and all I can say is I hope I never get stuck working with you on any projects.

    I Quit.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/436845/page/1 -> http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/436845/what-killed-mmorpgs-for-you/p1

    http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2316034
    .............
    Retired Gamer: all MMORPG's have been destroyed by big business, marketing of false promises, unprofessional game makers, and a generation of "I WIN and GIVE ME NOW" (brought to you by pokeman).

  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,190
    Vardahoth said:

    no, I do not define "honesty" and "professionalism" as idealism and hope.




    No but you do define it from a "perfect scenario" where everything just works out. Most of the time that simply does not happen. In fact most of the time you run i to problems that could not be predicted or circumvented. Should the developers promise less... Maybe... 

    But let´s say you start your company, you make sure to only make modest claims of what your product will be and you somehow still get funding. Then you come to office one day and two fo your lead programmes have been poached and your lead artist fell of a ladder cleaning the roof and are now concussed, it then also turns out that the animator you hired was just lying out his arse in his resume.  

    Congrats... Even your modest claims are now down the toilet. 

    This is ofc a very extreme example and i use it only to illustrate a larger issue. Yes i agree that we need some more modesty in the game biz... but at the same time there is a metric ton of stuff that no proffesionalism or honesty in the world can help with... Sure you could say that part of the honesty would be to tell us this... But that is not how the business world works, so it is not like your call for more honest devs would have much impact there.

    Again not trying to slam you... Just sharing my experience with you as someone who has seen several time how quickly the best laid plans can fall apart when working with creative ventures. 

    Tawess gaming

    Tawess soapbox

    This have been a good conversation

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Vardahoth said:
    Well you can think professionalism is idealism and hope all you want. I'm not going to argue with you anymore. Clearly you have chosen to be unprofessional, and all I can say is I hope I never get stuck working with you on any projects.
    The programmers I've worked with are professional.

    The primary difference with game development is requirements change.  Why?  Because the purpose of games is fun, and it's well-known that fun is best achieved through iteration (which is change.)

    So change is unavoidable (without creating a game that isn't fun...which would obviously be unprofessional) while at the same time change causes your lofty idealism to be unrealistic. This is why developers who successfully navigate these two conflicting factors are professionals.

    So that spells out quite clearly my definition of professionalism, while also spelling out why your lofty idealism is unrealistic.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • VardahothVardahoth Member RarePosts: 1,472
    tawess said:
    Vardahoth said:

    no, I do not define "honesty" and "professionalism" as idealism and hope.




    No but you do define it from a "perfect scenario" where everything just works out. Most of the time that simply does not happen. In fact most of the time you run i to problems that could not be predicted or circumvented. Should the developers promise less... Maybe... 

    But let´s say you start your company, you make sure to only make modest claims of what your product will be and you somehow still get funding. Then you come to office one day and two fo your lead programmes have been poached and your lead artist fell of a ladder cleaning the roof and are now concussed, it then also turns out that the animator you hired was just lying out his arse in his resume.  

    Congrats... Even your modest claims are now down the toilet. 

    This is ofc a very extreme example and i use it only to illustrate a larger issue. Yes i agree that we need some more modesty in the game biz... but at the same time there is a metric ton of stuff that no proffesionalism or honesty in the world can help with... Sure you could say that part of the honesty would be to tell us this... But that is not how the business world works, so it is not like your call for more honest devs would have much impact there.

    Again not trying to slam you... Just sharing my experience with you as someone who has seen several time how quickly the best laid plans can fall apart when working with creative ventures. 
    In the video it explains how professional teams cover each other. This means eliminating single point of failures and companies who are professional will have risk mitigation involved. It's kind of like having insurance.

    Axehilt said:
    Vardahoth said:
    Well you can think professionalism is idealism and hope all you want. I'm not going to argue with you anymore. Clearly you have chosen to be unprofessional, and all I can say is I hope I never get stuck working with you on any projects.
    The programmers I've worked with are professional.

    The primary difference with game development is requirements change.  Why?  Because the purpose of games is fun, and it's well-known that fun is best achieved through iteration (which is change.)

    So change is unavoidable (without creating a game that isn't fun...which would obviously be unprofessional) while at the same time change causes your lofty idealism to be unrealistic. This is why developers who successfully navigate these two conflicting factors are professionals.

    So that spells out quite clearly my definition of professionalism, while also spelling out why your lofty idealism is unrealistic.
    In the video it explains things on change. Professionals are expected to know which parts of the system are stable and which parts are changeable, so when the customer changes there mind (which happens on rare occasions /endSarcasm) and things need to change it's as simple as changing them.

    I Quit.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/436845/page/1 -> http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/436845/what-killed-mmorpgs-for-you/p1

    http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2316034
    .............
    Retired Gamer: all MMORPG's have been destroyed by big business, marketing of false promises, unprofessional game makers, and a generation of "I WIN and GIVE ME NOW" (brought to you by pokeman).

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Vardahoth said:
    In the video it explains things on change. Professionals are expected to know which parts of the system are stable and which parts are changeable, so when the customer changes there mind (which happens on rare occasions /endSarcasm) and things need to change it's as simple as changing them.
    Right.

    And that happens.

    And the problem is that the inevitable lower level of polish that results from those changes is the basis for your blanket insult of the game industry, claiming they're unprofessional.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • VardahothVardahoth Member RarePosts: 1,472
    Axehilt said:
    Vardahoth said:
    In the video it explains things on change. Professionals are expected to know which parts of the system are stable and which parts are changeable, so when the customer changes there mind (which happens on rare occasions /endSarcasm) and things need to change it's as simple as changing them.
    Right.

    And that happens.

    And the problem is that the inevitable lower level of polish that results from those changes is the basis for your blanket insult of the game industry, claiming they're unprofessional.
    Making promises to your paying customers and not delivering on them is what I claim to be unprofessional.

    Releasing unfinished products with bugs that break the product at every turn to paying customers is what I claim to be unprofessional.

    Forcing your paying customers to be your QA is what I claim to be unprofessional.

    It's really not that complicated.

    I Quit.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/436845/page/1 -> http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/436845/what-killed-mmorpgs-for-you/p1

    http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2316034
    .............
    Retired Gamer: all MMORPG's have been destroyed by big business, marketing of false promises, unprofessional game makers, and a generation of "I WIN and GIVE ME NOW" (brought to you by pokeman).

  • VardahothVardahoth Member RarePosts: 1,472
    edited December 2015
    DrDread74 said:
    Vardahoth said:
    I was talking with an indie I work with last week. I was telling him about how if we had proper resources (which I have and can do at home) then it would increase productivity. He said productivity doesn't matter. I said what do you mean? He said no project is ever supposed to work, its just supposed to get done so they can get a new budget for the next project.

    This kind if thinking is real and happening in the industry right now. I'm honestly sickened by it. Once I save enough money I'm starting my own company that actually delivers what it promises.


    As long as people buy this tuff, they will keep making it.

    Complaining that the industry works this way is like complaining about bad politicians. They got voted in, by YOU. Don't vote for them for the right reasons and they will stop dominating the market.

    I never voted once for any politician in my life (except Ron Paul for president who never made it in). So this claim is false, and I remain left out of the crowd you blame.

    Looking at the next runner ups, I think every single one of them will continue to make this country worse, so again I will not vote for these bad politicians, because then you would be right.

    I pretty much side with what george carlin said on voting:

    I Quit.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/436845/page/1 -> http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/436845/what-killed-mmorpgs-for-you/p1

    http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2316034
    .............
    Retired Gamer: all MMORPG's have been destroyed by big business, marketing of false promises, unprofessional game makers, and a generation of "I WIN and GIVE ME NOW" (brought to you by pokeman).

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