TBH, I guess what people are saying is there isn't a non-WoW crowd big enough for companies to want to invest developing an mmorpg. So since they all took the WoW-Clone route, they basically keep re-inventing the wheel. Then you have people from a different niche (such as you and me) who shed a tear at what mmorpg's has become today.
Your reasoning is flawed.
"there isn't a non-WoW crowd big enough for companies to want to invest developing an mmorpg" .. true.
"So since they all took the WoW-Clone route" .. this is not true. They don't make wow clone anymore. They make MOBAs, shooters, instanced pvp, and other online games.
Don't make non-wow mmorpg does not equate making wow-clones. There are a lot of other types of MMOs (and online games) to consider.
MOBAs != MMORPG Shooters != MMORPG Instanced pvp = WoW Other Online games (not a wow-clone) != mmorpg (if you want to go back to what mmorpg means I will point the wiki for you)
so? we are talking about what devs are going to make. They do NOT have to make mmorpgs, do they?
In fact, Blizz is a good example. They scrapped Titan (mmorpg) and make new non-mmorpgs (a moba, a shooter, and a card game to be exact).
So what is the problem of my reasoning? Don't tell me you think devs are confined to ONLY making MMORPGs.
If you read my first post you responded to , you would see I was referring to the mmorpg genre. I wasn't talking about non-mmorpg video games. (Note: when making a reference to something within the same paragraph, it's not required to re-reference it)
No you were talking about what developers will do. STOP making mmorpgs is one of their choices. You are not seriously suggest devs have to make MMORPGs, do you?
I was talking about mmorpg developers. I even said it. If they choose to develop other games, they are no longer an mmorpg developer. For the ones who wanted to stay as mmorpg developers they do the WoW-Clones. Why is that so hard to understand?
and i say .. you are missing the point. Few AAA devs (is there any left?) in the west is sticking to mmorpgs. Yes, they are no longer mmorpg developers, and you essentially are talking about no one in particular.
No one is staying .. hence whether they are doing wow-clones is irrelevant.
I was talking about mmorpg developers. I even said it. If they choose to develop other games, they are no longer an mmorpg developer. For the ones who wanted to stay as mmorpg developers they do the WoW-Clones. Why is that so hard to understand?
and i say .. you are missing the point. Few AAA devs (is there any left?) in the west is sticking to mmorpgs. Yes, they are no longer mmorpg developers, and you essentially are talking about no one in particular.
No one is staying .. hence whether they are doing wow-clones is irrelevant.
If that were true, then might as well shut down this website. However, all I have to do is sort the game list on this website by date, and see how wrong you really are.
You did not get the memo, this website has broadened the classification of MMOs, and they are also covering single player RPGs. That is why they are still around.
Don't tell me you think this website is still only about mmorpgs (despite its name).
As long as one forty year old man is willing to dress up in a clown suit and raise his pitch to the level of a girl's in order to make money, he will continue to outsell the old-fashioned model of making games according to literary or moral ideals. The market is children, and although children are not discriminating by nature, they are easily manipulated. Hence anyone successful in the market today is so because he is more willing to manipulate children. Making MMORPGs carries the dignity of a street hawker or door-to-door solicitor.
If this crass manner of business could be defeated by taking the high road, it would not exist in the first place. MMORPGs were unknown in the public conscience before WoW. Blizzard knew exactly what it was doing, and its games should be ostracized for it.
And I quote, "The average game player is 35 years old." Only 26% is under 18 years old. So children (even if you count teenager) consists of only about a quarter of the game players in the US.
I agree, the majority of the market is the "younger" audience, but this is not because young children like games more than grown men, but because the games delivered...well their quality is sufficient to entertain a younger person mind.
For games to reach out to the billions out there they have to show a certain level of quality. The majority of the people are more interested and invested in real life because real life feels far more "important", "familiar" and "accessable" than games, but that can change. All we need is those involved in developing/producing games to creates games as it's the second coming and that's how they will be perceived.
What we give importance is what's important and the way I see it games these days and over the past couple years don't feel much important. So, why should people bother?
People like to be unique, current MMO design tries to keep you one of the crowd. That was far less so in the old days, when you could have skills and even speak languages only your profession/race had.
This stems from design being built around the concept that a player must never feel he has made a decision that he cannot take back. It is like the concept of save games being applied to a MMO. The perceived wisdom became that thinking you had made a bad choice might make you leave the game, the only way to ensure that was to not allow you to make choices.
Even something like supporting one of two different tribes in conflict, which would then give you a special ability dependent on which tribe you supported has been binned. No matter how fairly that is done some players will think they got the poorer ability. If you can't take it back easily you might leave.
So to make the game appeal and retain the widest possible audience, your ability to feel unique took a warhammer smack to the head. Gaming companies know that playing to that want would help sell their games, but they also think it would turn more people off, and this is about maximising the player base.
And I quote, "The average game player is 35 years old." Only 26% is under 18 years old. So children (even if you count teenager) consists of only about a quarter of the game players in the US.
It also goes to show how clueless some "gamers" are when they make baseless statements around kids.
I think they want to make the old games sound like you had to have more of a brain to play. Which is complete poppycock.
Honestly looking at today's mmorpg's. I don't know what more you could ask for. Other then throwing up generic terms claiming the industry isn't meeting those standards. The market is fuller and better then it has ever been. Maybe you just don't like mmorpg's.
Sometimes some random indie makes
a game and it really grows and takes off without them ever expecting it to. It
usually ends up getting sold to a company for alot of money or gets market
shares and ran to profit shareholders first or gets too big and collapses on
itself either way it ends up going down hill and you are left with a game with a 25 - 50 player base or a game that has millions and over sells itself and becomes mediocre over time.
And I quote, "The average game player is 35 years old." Only 26% is under 18 years old. So children (even if you count teenager) consists of only about a quarter of the game players in the US.
I'm only making this threads because it's truly ironic how not a single new game has managed to draw my interest enough for me to spend $ on since January 11th 2011 with DCUO
Is that ironic? Truly ironic?
It only sounds like you're not a gamer, or a cheapskate. No irony involved.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I think they want to make the old games sound like you had to have more of a brain to play. Which is complete poppycock.
Time yes, brains no.
Older games had a lots less hand holding, you had to read the quest description and understand what was asked and where to go without glowing paths and quests arrows telling you without having to read anything. It didn't necessarily took more time to do it that way than follow the glowing paths and quests arrows of newer games.
I'm only making this threads because it's truly ironic how not a single new game has managed to draw my interest enough for me to spend $ on since January 11th 2011 with DCUO
Is that ironic? Truly ironic?
It only sounds like you're not a gamer, or a cheapskate. No irony involved.
Plus, why does the preference of a single player matters? All Kopogero has pointed out is that there is no game that he likes. So what?
There are always some niche preferences that are not being catered to.
I think they want to make the old games sound like you had to have more of a brain to play. Which is complete poppycock.
Time yes, brains no.
Older games had a lots less hand holding, you had to read the quest description and understand what was asked and where to go without glowing paths and quests arrows telling you without having to read anything. It didn't necessarily took more time to do it that way than follow the glowing paths and quests arrows of newer games.
That is a chore though if the point of the game is combat.
Look at games like Diablo 3 ... travel has pretty much be eliminated. I think glowing path and quest arrows are not that much fun .. don't get me wrong. But the solution is not to bring back old way (unless the point of the game is a treasure hunt), but just eliminate the unnecessary un-fun part of the game.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
TBH, I guess what people are saying is there isn't a non-WoW crowd big enough for companies to want to invest developing an mmorpg. So since they all took the WoW-Clone route, they basically keep re-inventing the wheel. Then you have people from a different niche (such as you and me) who shed a tear at what mmorpg's has become today.
Your reasoning is flawed.
"there isn't a non-WoW crowd big enough for companies to want to invest developing an mmorpg" .. true.
"So since they all took the WoW-Clone route" .. this is not true. They don't make wow clone anymore. They make MOBAs, shooters, instanced pvp, and other online games.
Don't make non-wow mmorpg does not equate making wow-clones. There are a lot of other types of MMOs (and online games) to consider.
MOBAs != MMORPG Shooters != MMORPG Instanced pvp = WoW Other Online games (not a wow-clone) != mmorpg (if you want to go back to what mmorpg means I will point the wiki for you)
So your reasoning is flawed.
For me, there are only 3 mmorpg's that comes to mind that isn't a WoW-Clone:
ESO, but even that game is all solo-play (with instance group dungeons = WoW), so I question the MMORPG of it. Also, no open-world pvp? Only Instanced pvp? hmmm familiar. And lets dummy it down further by only giving 5 hotbar skills. Next we'll release it with hordes of game-breaking bugs and take years and years to fix them while creating more content that keeps breaking the game more.
Eve - I don't consider this an mmorpg, it's more like an mmo-scifi or an mmorts. No character, no fantasy/medieval feeling to the game. No level ups. So forth...
Then there is darkfall - about the only game I would consider playing today if it wasn't so clunky and felt like I was a blind man swinging a sword trying to hit a pinata (the hit boxes where the characters were once were) with a bunch of naked men chasing you trying to kill you for loot. Then you want to go on a vacation for a week, and you come back and your skills you have leveled have all de-leveled a few months worth. Yes all that few months you put into leveling up your skills is now for nothing because you took a week off. On top of it, to use skills it cost items (instead of mp) for every use that you only get by killing monsters, so if all you are is a mage, you screwed yourself over.
So let me give you my checklist of WoW, and tell me an mmorpg game that is not like this:
Rush to max level within a week (by yourself, not needing any groups)
Pay to get max level
No open-world pvp where you can pvp anyone (with a flagging/pk system) where the only safezones are towns, and they are at least an hour running time apart
Instanced dungeons and pvp (battle grounds)
Binded equipment (can't trade or resell)
Raidbosses done with less than 50 people
End game raidbosses take less than 10 minutes to kill
Factions
Skill Tree's
Lack of race diversity and starter towns
No death penalties
No journey quests to go through to upgrade your class
Open-World is instead seperated by state zones
Lack of massive siege battles where players form together and create their own guilds to win the castle/fort/camp/whatever for taxes and bonuses.
Lack of player run community game, meaning each player has their own story (involving and affecting other good/bad players) and is not the hero of blankity who does the exact same quests as every player in the game for that class/race.
So as the wow-clones all came out with the things above, they progressively got worse and added:
No class diversity (everyone can solo now so why have them?)
Mommy Caps (gain this much currency, quests, instance runs this many times per week)
Cash shops (No need to work for anything anymore, just open your wallet and buy the next released pixel weapon)
Releasing games before they are finished forcing the customers to be their QA department and pay for this.
Feel free to tell me some MMORPGs that are not like the above....
That's the same argument I've been making but I already know the answer... why should they? They are trying to appeal to the widest market possible because it's all about the money. The more players they can pull in, the more money they make. Trying to do something that is truly innovative and different may not lead to a big market and may in fact lead to a massive fail so they are scared to try it. This is what you get in a capitalist economy. It's all about the money. Until the players start leaving MMO's in droves, they won't bother trying anything that we all want because they don't need to. Instead, we will get little tidbits sometimes to make them a tiny change from the rest of the pack but everything else in the game will be exactly the same as every other game but with different graphics.
Until the players start leaving MMO's in droves, they won't bother trying anything that we all want because they don't need to.
hmm .. they tried MOBAs. They tried e-sports, instanced pvp games like WoT. They tried instanced pve games like Warframe.
They tried many things, just not your classical definition of MMORPGs. In fact, that is innovative. Why bother to adhere to the old MMORPG tropes when you can do something different?
Comments
A game that needs another year in development is not a great game. At most, it has the potential to be a great game, and I don't play potential.
No one is staying .. hence whether they are doing wow-clones is irrelevant.
Don't tell me you think this website is still only about mmorpgs (despite its name).
If this crass manner of business could be defeated by taking the high road, it would not exist in the first place. MMORPGs were unknown in the public conscience before WoW. Blizzard knew exactly what it was doing, and its games should be ostracized for it.
http://www.theesa.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/ESA-Essential-Facts-2015.pdf
And I quote, "The average game player is 35 years old." Only 26% is under 18 years old. So children (even if you count teenager) consists of only about a quarter of the game players in the US.
I agree, the majority of the market is the "younger" audience, but this is not because young children like games more than grown men, but because the games delivered...well their quality is sufficient to entertain a younger person mind.
For games to reach out to the billions out there they have to show a certain level of quality. The majority of the people are more interested and invested in real life because real life feels far more "important", "familiar" and "accessable" than games, but that can change. All we need is those involved in developing/producing games to creates games as it's the second coming and that's how they will be perceived.
What we give importance is what's important and the way I see it games these days and over the past couple years don't feel much important. So, why should people bother?
People like to be unique, current MMO design tries to keep you one of the crowd. That was far less so in the old days, when you could have skills and even speak languages only your profession/race had.
This stems from design being built around the concept that a player must never feel he has made a decision that he cannot take back. It is like the concept of save games being applied to a MMO. The perceived wisdom became that thinking you had made a bad choice might make you leave the game, the only way to ensure that was to not allow you to make choices.
Even something like supporting one of two different tribes in conflict, which would then give you a special ability dependent on which tribe you supported has been binned. No matter how fairly that is done some players will think they got the poorer ability. If you can't take it back easily you might leave.
So to make the game appeal and retain the widest possible audience, your ability to feel unique took a warhammer smack to the head. Gaming companies know that playing to that want would help sell their games, but they also think it would turn more people off, and this is about maximising the player base.
I think they want to make the old games sound like you had to have more of a brain to play. Which is complete poppycock.
Time yes, brains no.
Sometimes some random indie makes a game and it really grows and takes off without them ever expecting it to. It usually ends up getting sold to a company for alot of money or gets market shares and ran to profit shareholders first or gets too big and collapses on itself either way it ends up going down hill and you are left with a game with a 25 - 50 player base or a game that has millions and over sells itself and becomes mediocre over time.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
http://www.theesa.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/ESA-Essential-Facts-2015.pdf
And I quote, "The average game player is 35 years old." Only 26% is under 18 years old. So children (even if you count teenager) consists of only about a quarter of the game players in the US.
It only sounds like you're not a gamer, or a cheapskate. No irony involved.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
There are always some niche preferences that are not being catered to.
That is a chore though if the point of the game is combat.
Look at games like Diablo 3 ... travel has pretty much be eliminated. I think glowing path and quest arrows are not that much fun .. don't get me wrong. But the solution is not to bring back old way (unless the point of the game is a treasure hunt), but just eliminate the unnecessary un-fun part of the game.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Sway all day, butterfly flaps all the way!
They tried many things, just not your classical definition of MMORPGs. In fact, that is innovative. Why bother to adhere to the old MMORPG tropes when you can do something different?