Apart from the point where you dwell on the moniker, which many people have, even though nothing really works, what you say is quite insightful.
However, I believe that LFG tools have improved vastly over the years. It did suck when you couldn't do anything else while LFG, and could go a few hours, several days in a row, unable to get a group. Example: You should be able to seek on one job while playing on another. Makes sense.
As I have said, I do believe there's something to be said for the party-grinder. Idk, it was somehow more fun to settle down and grind away at the same type of mob, you got to type a little between pulls, tell jokes and pull off some impossible feats like surviving a three-link and knowing everyone did a kick-ass job.
It's not exactly my own theory. When you make stuff easier to do by putting it in the hands of an automated system, you lose the human input. Relations only get established by spending time together, in old MMO's that often meant waiting for a group, getting to the place you needed to be, finding the right people, the best leaders etc.
Honestly, I don't think there's any turning back. I'm not that nostalgia-blinded. There are literally thousands of MMO's out there, so there's no way any new game can hope to catch all the fish in the pond, they'll need to share the spoils.
Therefore, developers will also need to be very conscious about what they're trying to do for their game. Follow the trend and go with a groupfinder? Fine, but don't think that your community will love the group content.
If they're trying to establish a game where people actually LIKE to group, some automated system won't do the job. Such a game will still require people to go through some hardships, where they get to know eachother in the process.
That said, I don't think it's enough to just put on nostalgia-glasses either. Group grinding might have been more fun than solo-grinding back then, but it ain't enough in this day and age. With some out of the box thinking however, stuff like "Getting to the dungeon entrance" or "Filling in roles" could actually be made fun and rewarding too, without deleting any player input.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
I will start by saying that I didn't read most of the responses to this but wanted to voice my feelings on this. Any game that tries to force me to do anything i don't want to do will be uninstalled right then an their. You should never try and force any gamer to do anything they do not want to do. If the game doesn't have a nature feel for grouping outside of instances I probably will not group at all unless that is what I do.
The content requires the grouping, it's not forcing you to do anything because you're not forced to play the game. This has been covered by others and myself again and again. I don't want "forced-grouping" to be an aspect of the game that players have to endure. I want it to be a core to a game so that if you don't like it, you won't want to play it.
And saying that a person doesn't know how to play their character without grouping is not the best choice IMO. It goes on to the elitest attitude that people have to be able to min/max etc..... to know how to play which is not true.
Sorry, I don't want to come off as elitist, but there is truth to it. A tank that solos to cap won't learn what his best aggro abilities are. A healer that solos that cap doesn't learn triage, mp management, or really healing at all. DPS can't even use their best abilities if they have positional requirements because the mob is always facing them.
Personally I will never again play a game with a dps meter or anything like that running and I normally will auto block anyone who post or says anything about not healing enough, can't keep aggro, or dps isn't high enough. I don't want to play with those people as they create hostile environments. A game is to be fun and immersive, not a job where you have to be the best to play it.
I hate DPS Meters as well. I do. I like them for myself, and in hard raid content but i'm sick of the problems they cause in WoWcetera. If our little group of level 32s (or whatever uncapped) is clearing the content. Who cares. On top of that, it's apples and oranges. Some jobs do well on aoe, some do well on single target, some are a happy medium.
I will use a DPS meter to evaluate what my friends and I are doing wrong if we can't kill a boss. I'm too lazy to shut it off while leveling but I don't care what it's doing. Although, there have been a few times where a jerk would spam his 1337 dps and I'd spam his less-than-leet damage taken.
Forced grouping causes all kind of problems that you have no control over, who wants that in their game.
Italics are my responses.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
The choose to, they don't have to. I don't play single player RPGs (I can count the ones I've played since 2000 on one hand).
And still, leveling by tagging, is completely stupid. By tagging, I mean "get on the enemy's hate list before the enemy dies" and you get exp. The most effective way to do this is with a quick aoe that needs no target. The last RPGs I played were Star Ocean 3 and Legends of Legaia, and you had to actually understand the battle mechanics to succeed against tough opponents. That's more than most MMOs ask for until endgame.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
And still, leveling by tagging, is completely stupid. By tagging, I mean "get on the enemy's hate list before the enemy dies" and you get exp.
This is. However, i am only commenting on the time duration, not the way.
It is certainly fine to level up a matter of days, if it is done through intense combat.
Why are so many people saying things should not be created that other people obviously want. Such a negative attitude. There are tons of games that appeal to a solo mindset. I can count the MMOs on one hand that I would consider directly appeal with a group focused game.
This has been a tricky issue since MMO's began, so much has changed to make grouping harder, that something like a group finder does not redress the issue.
Methods to help grouping vary, one avatar being able to click multiple classes within a role bracket is one. But if you set up a game so that it hardly ever needs grouping, people are going to hardly ever group.
This has been a tricky issue since MMO's began, so much has changed to make grouping harder, that something like a group finder does not redress the issue.
depends on what the issue is.
group finder address the issue for those who do not want to waste their time socializing to get a group. It makes the whole thing more convenient.
This has been a tricky issue since MMO's began, so much has changed to make grouping harder, that something like a group finder does not redress the issue.
Methods to help grouping vary, one avatar being able to click multiple classes within a role bracket is one. But if you set up a game so that it hardly ever needs grouping, people are going to hardly ever group.
if you set up a game so that it hardly ever needs grouping, people are going to hardly ever group.
Perfectly said.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Forced grouping has more pros and then cons period, some people may not like it but you know what? Dont play mmorpgs if all you want to do is solo, modded skyrim can last you ages. And lets not forget nearly every mmorpg already is solo based so when a good mmorpg comes out with some real meaningful forced grouping you do not have a right to complain.
There was plenty of solo classes in older mmorpgs and plenty of customization to choose from.
I keep seeing this title and then wondered the obvious.WHY are people like everyone calling what is suppose to be an online mmo with OTHER people FORCED grouping.TO me it is something you expect,i wouldn't call it forced.
It is like saying in a hockey game it is a forced team concept,umm no it is a team game ,it is suppose to have 6 on 6.Then i look at multi sports like example Tennis,you have solo and you have doubles.You don't take the Doubles concept and turn it into a singles player game,otherwise it is not a doubles Team game anymore it is a single player game.
That is how i look at it,MMO=TEAM based single player=solo based game designs,they SHOULD be completely different,if not then all the MMO is another single player game with a login screen.
Go watch the Angry Joe video on Elder Scrolls,he explains into detail several times about how a MMO should be group based and why.One of his statements was something like "Why have other people around ,if yo u are never interacting with them and the quests you do together are still treated like solo quests".
To me it is like a developer who is either clueless,or is doing it for no other reason than to RIP gamer's off trying to make more money off of a single player game than it deserves.Perfect example TESO 100 bucks up front and 15 more a month was their initial sell job.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Forced grouping has more pros and then cons period, some people may not like it but you know what? Dont play mmorpgs if all you want to do is solo, modded skyrim can last you ages. And lets not forget nearly every mmorpg already is solo based so when a good mmorpg comes out with some real meaningful forced grouping you do not have a right to complain.
There was plenty of solo classes in older mmorpgs and plenty of customization to choose from.
No...it doesn't
Your simple minded opinion is just that...yours. Grouping has nothing to do with the term MMORPG.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Forced grouping has more pros and then cons period, some people may not like it but you know what? Dont play mmorpgs if all you want to do is solo, modded skyrim can last you ages.
hmm .. i don't think it is up to you to decide how other play games.
In fact, i play mmorpgs like single player games. If i am having fun, is there a reason i should not be doing so? And if devs would like to cater to my preference, is there a reason they should not. It is a free market, you know.
Forced grouping has more pros and then cons period, some people may not like it but you know what? Dont play mmorpgs if all you want to do is solo, modded skyrim can last you ages.
hmm .. i don't think it is up to you to decide how other play games.
In fact, i play mmorpgs like single player games. If i am having fun, is there a reason i should not be doing so? And if devs would like to cater to my preference, is there a reason they should not. It is a free market, you know.
This ^
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
I don't play games where I can't socialize with others. That does not mean I would inflict myself on others' groups. I'm old, I'm slow, I don't like being rushed. The other factor is that in Everquest, the chances of someone wanting to go to the same zone and do what you're doing are slim. Cross-server grouping would have helped that a lot. Right now, EQ's population is so low, boxing is a necessity.
Forced grouping has more pros and then cons period, some people may not like it but you know what? Dont play mmorpgs if all you want to do is solo, modded skyrim can last you ages.
hmm .. i don't think it is up to you to decide how other play games.
In fact, i play mmorpgs like single player games. If i am having fun, is there a reason i should not be doing so? And if devs would like to cater to my preference, is there a reason they should not. It is a free market, you know.
We need some MMOs where more grouping is needed, it does not have to be from level one. These you only group on raids, that's deciding how people play games. A mixture of gameplay styles within a genre is healthy.
Forced grouping has more pros and then cons period, some people may not like it but you know what? Dont play mmorpgs if all you want to do is solo, modded skyrim can last you ages.
hmm .. i don't think it is up to you to decide how other play games.
In fact, i play mmorpgs like single player games. If i am having fun, is there a reason i should not be doing so? And if devs would like to cater to my preference, is there a reason they should not. It is a free market, you know.
We need some MMOs where more grouping is needed, it does not have to be from level one. These you only group on raids, that's deciding how people play games. A mixture of gameplay styles within a genre is healthy.
"where more grouping is needed" ... that is your preference. It is up to the devs to decide how much grouping vs solo content a game should have.
A mixture of gameplay style within a genre is healthy .. that I agree. But you don't have to have all the playstyle in ONE game. In today's market, there are group-only games (e.g. work of tank), group-optional games (e.g. warframe), and so on. You can always find a game that fit your play style.
Forced grouping has more pros and then cons period, some people may not like it but you know what? Dont play mmorpgs if all you want to do is solo, modded skyrim can last you ages.
hmm .. i don't think it is up to you to decide how other play games.
In fact, i play mmorpgs like single player games. If i am having fun, is there a reason i should not be doing so? And if devs would like to cater to my preference, is there a reason they should not. It is a free market, you know.
And yet, this is what you and several others have done in this thread several times.
I ask for one AAA effort at an MMO with group-centric gameplay from all but the very earliest levels. I gave good opinion-based reasons ("I find it more fun") and good fact-based reasons ("When you have to group to play, you learn how to play in a group. Solo tactics are completely different and sometimes have *nothing* to do with how you'd play in a group").
Anyway, I ask for that, give reasons, and people are in here spitting all over the idea of "forced grouping". I'm not saying every MMO, or half the MMOs, or even 10% need to be group centric. I believe one or a few could be successful but there's a reason WoW and FF14 are more successful than FFXI, and that's part of it (the other part is that FFXI hardly-ever/never advertised on any medium).
Post edited by Deathofsage on
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Pretty similar to politics; a lot busybodies enjoy telling the Other Guys how to Play It Right. Here's my turn:
CoH did it right; group-friendly, group-advantageous, and with an exceptional "find" tool (that's never been equaled). The majority of players spent the majority of time grouped, because instances were everywhere. And grouping up for them yielded more rewards.
Yet, no gun pointed at anybody's head. If you felt like soloing instead, that was possible, all the way to the cap.
You can make a group-friendly group-encouraging game that doesn't leave solo players in the cold. Not FFXI. Not WoW. Neither extreme.
Pretty similar to politics; a lot busybodies enjoy telling the Other Guys how to Play It Right. Here's my turn:
CoH did it right; group-friendly, group-advantageous, and with an exceptional "find" tool (that's never been equaled). The majority of players spent the majority of time grouped, because instances were everywhere. And grouping up for them yielded more rewards.
Yet, no gun pointed at anybody's head. If you felt like soloing instead, that was possible, all the way to the cap.
You can make a group-friendly group-encouraging game that doesn't leave solo players in the cold. Not FFXI. Not WoW. Neither extreme.
Curious, as I never played it, what made CoH's group finder so good?
On a separate note, I'm not saying XI's was better--
FFXI actually had a very robust search tool--
/sea all anti -- all players whose names begin with anti /sea all inv -- players LFP /sea all [job] [level] [inv] like /sea all PLD 45-47 inv -- looking in all areas for paladins 45-47 looking for party. /sea all friend
You could also leave search comments, as well /sea specific areas, like /sea PortJeuno, /sea area (the zone you were in) and /sea region (the region the zone was part of).
There was a button interface too, but it was just easier to type.
I'd love to see a robust search tool in a game again, but also with group finders like queue'ing for X dungeon or Y boss. A search tool works better when you're, well, searching for something specific, but a game can have both.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Every time I see thread like these, I basically have to facepalm.
The issue of "incompetence" has nothing to do with players not being often enough in groups. The issue of the playerbase not socializing has nothing to do with the lack of groups. The issue of players not grouping has nothing to do with games lacking incentive to do so.
First, the waste majority of gamers play games on the easy and normal difficulty. MMOs tend to release with the difficulty set between normal/hard and nightmare (not a constant things) and tend move to easier difficulty overtime (or super easy like SWTOR). The easy and normal difficulty don't require you to know what you are doing, but making a MMO with hard+ difficulty means a super small playerbase. Guess what most devs end up choosing...
Second, there is plenty of recent MMOs out there that require you to group to do dungeons/content while leveling. This feature doesn't improve the social aspect or the sense of community of the game, in fact it probably make it worst. Why you might ask? That is because players don't want to socialize and nobody talks in those group unless it is to tell you that you sucks. Those groups have more in commons with hamsters running in a wheel. Oh and lets not forget the ones who kicks others at the end of a dungeon to stop them from getting the final loot chest content...
Third, plenty of recent MMOs give you bonuses to group (XP bonus, loot bonus, etc) and players choose not to because it is a lot more convenient to solo stuff: doesn't have to wait to form the group, doesn't have to endure jerks, doesn't have to endure incompetents, doesn't have to share, doesn't have to deal with AFKers, doesn't have to deal with players who are chatting over their guild vents and not listening to the group, etc.
Still, if a game launched with a declared focus on group-play it could be a succes. I dont see why not. Just dont try to advertise it to be something it's not.
I know it's not the same, but games like DOTA and LOL or even CS and TF2 are succesful games with near zero singleplay fokus. I just cant see why it wouldn't be possible to make some sort of crossover mmo with a game like that.
It needs to be marketed right though, make sure all know when they purchase the game that this is not ment to be played solo.
I'd add a good housing and crafting system though, for the times when you're not feeling like socialising.
Forced grouping has more pros and then cons period, some people may not like it but you know what? Dont play mmorpgs if all you want to do is solo, modded skyrim can last you ages.
hmm .. i don't think it is up to you to decide how other play games.
In fact, i play mmorpgs like single player games. If i am having fun, is there a reason i should not be doing so? And if devs would like to cater to my preference, is there a reason they should not. It is a free market, you know.
And yet, this is what you and several others have done in this thread several times.
I ask for one AAA effort at an MMO with group-centric gameplay from all but the very earliest levels. I gave good opinion-based reasons ("I find it more fun") and good fact-based reasons ("When you have to group to play, you learn how to play in a group. Solo tactics are completely different and sometimes have *nothing* to do with how you'd play in a group").
Anyway, I ask for that, give reasons, and people are in here spitting all over the idea of "forced grouping". I'm not saying every MMO, or half the MMOs, or even 10% need to be group centric. I believe one or a few could be successful but there's a reason WoW and FF14 are more successful than FFXI, and that's part of it (the other part is that FFXI hardly-ever/never advertised on any medium).
wait .. when did i do that?
Did i not even pointing out that forced grouping games like LoL, and WoT are very successful? Again, i don't play these games when i don't like grouping but i never said they should not exist.
Similarly, if a mmorpg can be solo ... don't tell me I cannot play it as a single player game.
Comments
Honestly, I don't think there's any turning back. I'm not that nostalgia-blinded. There are literally thousands of MMO's out there, so there's no way any new game can hope to catch all the fish in the pond, they'll need to share the spoils.
Therefore, developers will also need to be very conscious about what they're trying to do for their game. Follow the trend and go with a groupfinder? Fine, but don't think that your community will love the group content.
If they're trying to establish a game where people actually LIKE to group, some automated system won't do the job. Such a game will still require people to go through some hardships, where they get to know eachother in the process.
That said, I don't think it's enough to just put on nostalgia-glasses either. Group grinding might have been more fun than solo-grinding back then, but it ain't enough in this day and age. With some out of the box thinking however, stuff like "Getting to the dungeon entrance" or "Filling in roles" could actually be made fun and rewarding too, without deleting any player input.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Italics are my responses.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
And still, leveling by tagging, is completely stupid. By tagging, I mean "get on the enemy's hate list before the enemy dies" and you get exp. The most effective way to do this is with a quick aoe that needs no target. The last RPGs I played were Star Ocean 3 and Legends of Legaia, and you had to actually understand the battle mechanics to succeed against tough opponents. That's more than most MMOs ask for until endgame.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
We should encourage a variety of games.
This has been a tricky issue since MMO's began, so much has changed to make grouping harder, that something like a group finder does not redress the issue.
Methods to help grouping vary, one avatar being able to click multiple classes within a role bracket is one. But if you set up a game so that it hardly ever needs grouping, people are going to hardly ever group.
group finder address the issue for those who do not want to waste their time socializing to get a group. It makes the whole thing more convenient.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
There was plenty of solo classes in older mmorpgs and plenty of customization to choose from.
It is like saying in a hockey game it is a forced team concept,umm no it is a team game ,it is suppose to have 6 on 6.Then i look at multi sports like example Tennis,you have solo and you have doubles.You don't take the Doubles concept and turn it into a singles player game,otherwise it is not a doubles Team game anymore it is a single player game.
That is how i look at it,MMO=TEAM based single player=solo based game designs,they SHOULD be completely different,if not then all the MMO is another single player game with a login screen.
Go watch the Angry Joe video on Elder Scrolls,he explains into detail several times about how a MMO should be group based and why.One of his statements was something like "Why have other people around ,if yo u are never interacting with them and the quests you do together are still treated like solo quests".
To me it is like a developer who is either clueless,or is doing it for no other reason than to RIP gamer's off trying to make more money off of a single player game than it deserves.Perfect example TESO 100 bucks up front and 15 more a month was their initial sell job.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Your simple minded opinion is just that...yours. Grouping has nothing to do with the term MMORPG.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
In fact, i play mmorpgs like single player games. If i am having fun, is there a reason i should not be doing so? And if devs would like to cater to my preference, is there a reason they should not. It is a free market, you know.
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
Cool story, bro.
Bro
"This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."
We need some MMOs where more grouping is needed, it does not have to be from level one. These you only group on raids, that's deciding how people play games. A mixture of gameplay styles within a genre is healthy.
A mixture of gameplay style within a genre is healthy .. that I agree. But you don't have to have all the playstyle in ONE game. In today's market, there are group-only games (e.g. work of tank), group-optional games (e.g. warframe), and so on. You can always find a game that fit your play style.
I ask for one AAA effort at an MMO with group-centric gameplay from all but the very earliest levels. I gave good opinion-based reasons ("I find it more fun") and good fact-based reasons ("When you have to group to play, you learn how to play in a group. Solo tactics are completely different and sometimes have *nothing* to do with how you'd play in a group").
Anyway, I ask for that, give reasons, and people are in here spitting all over the idea of "forced grouping". I'm not saying every MMO, or half the MMOs, or even 10% need to be group centric. I believe one or a few could be successful but there's a reason WoW and FF14 are more successful than FFXI, and that's part of it (the other part is that FFXI hardly-ever/never advertised on any medium).
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
CoH did it right; group-friendly, group-advantageous, and with an exceptional "find" tool (that's never been equaled). The majority of players spent the majority of time grouped, because instances were everywhere. And grouping up for them yielded more rewards.
Yet, no gun pointed at anybody's head. If you felt like soloing instead, that was possible, all the way to the cap.
You can make a group-friendly group-encouraging game that doesn't leave solo players in the cold. Not FFXI. Not WoW. Neither extreme.
On a separate note, I'm not saying XI's was better--
FFXI actually had a very robust search tool--
/sea all anti -- all players whose names begin with anti
/sea all inv -- players LFP
/sea all [job] [level] [inv] like /sea all PLD 45-47 inv -- looking in all areas for paladins 45-47 looking for party.
/sea all friend
You could also leave search comments, as well /sea specific areas, like /sea PortJeuno, /sea area (the zone you were in) and /sea region (the region the zone was part of).
There was a button interface too, but it was just easier to type.
I'd love to see a robust search tool in a game again, but also with group finders like queue'ing for X dungeon or Y boss. A search tool works better when you're, well, searching for something specific, but a game can have both.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
The issue of "incompetence" has nothing to do with players not being often enough in groups.
The issue of the playerbase not socializing has nothing to do with the lack of groups.
The issue of players not grouping has nothing to do with games lacking incentive to do so.
First, the waste majority of gamers play games on the easy and normal difficulty. MMOs tend to release with the difficulty set between normal/hard and nightmare (not a constant things) and tend move to easier difficulty overtime (or super easy like SWTOR). The easy and normal difficulty don't require you to know what you are doing, but making a MMO with hard+ difficulty means a super small playerbase. Guess what most devs end up choosing...
Second, there is plenty of recent MMOs out there that require you to group to do dungeons/content while leveling. This feature doesn't improve the social aspect or the sense of community of the game, in fact it probably make it worst. Why you might ask? That is because players don't want to socialize and nobody talks in those group unless it is to tell you that you sucks. Those groups have more in commons with hamsters running in a wheel. Oh and lets not forget the ones who kicks others at the end of a dungeon to stop them from getting the final loot chest content...
Third, plenty of recent MMOs give you bonuses to group (XP bonus, loot bonus, etc) and players choose not to because it is a lot more convenient to solo stuff: doesn't have to wait to form the group, doesn't have to endure jerks, doesn't have to endure incompetents, doesn't have to share, doesn't have to deal with AFKers, doesn't have to deal with players who are chatting over their guild vents and not listening to the group, etc.
I know it's not the same, but games like DOTA and LOL or even CS and TF2 are succesful games with near zero singleplay fokus. I just cant see why it wouldn't be possible to make some sort of crossover mmo with a game like that.
It needs to be marketed right though, make sure all know when they purchase the game that this is not ment to be played solo.
I'd add a good housing and crafting system though, for the times when you're not feeling like socialising.
Did i not even pointing out that forced grouping games like LoL, and WoT are very successful? Again, i don't play these games when i don't like grouping but i never said they should not exist.
Similarly, if a mmorpg can be solo ... don't tell me I cannot play it as a single player game.