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Old school communities weren't all that great.

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  • MagikarpsGhostMagikarpsGhost Member RarePosts: 689
    Kiyoris said:
    I don't think they were all that great. Maybe it's because I visited the pantheon forums and saw so many nastyness, that I'm reminded that old school communities used to have just as many jerks as games do now.

    I completely forgot we had just as many bad apples as MMO now, if not more.

    I forgot there were elitists, I forgot there were jerks, I forget there were people who trained, I forgot you had PK killers. I forgot we had killstealers. I forgot we had hackers.  I forgot we had gankers.

    I forgot there were people's who's only goal in the game, was to make your life a living hell.

    And because death cost you XP, it allowed them to drive people far enough until they quit the game. It was easy for them to destroy other people's fun. That's part of the reason people were also upset at heavy death penalties, someone putting you in a death loop on purpose, would completely ruin your fun.

    You only remember the good things of old MMO, not the bad.
    Actually back in UO and EQ days they where. But that was mainly due to the fact that computer games where not as widely played like they are today. usually adults where the ones on them now days parents use them as babysitters.

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  • DauzqulDauzqul Member RarePosts: 1,980
    Kiyoris said:
    You only remember the good things of old MMO, not the bad.
    I disagree. Games like Warhammer Online, Aoin, and Star Trek Online are considered to be old MMOs now. I don't have much to say about them...

    SWG and EQ2? I have plenty of good things to say.
  • ScorchienScorchien Member LegendaryPosts: 7,433
    edited December 2015
    For all the 'old days were better' talk, when UO gave people a choice, roughly 70% left for the calmer servers.
    Big misconception that many have , the orginal intent of Trammel was real estate .. period , they threw in the no PKs as basically a 2fer to appease a part of the community , but the prime reason players wanted and went to Trammel intially was real Estate , they was none left on many of the servers on normal shards ,and that brought quite the uproar, a big selling point of UO then was the awesome open world housing , when they couldnt provide land for folks to settle on Trammel was there answer..Thats why many left ...

      And as far as communitys go , they were far better in gen 1 MMORPGs , UO AC ,AO EQ etc.. al excellent communities..
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Kyleran said:
    Kyleran said:
    Nanfoodle said:

    angus858 said:
    10 to 15 years ago, mmorpg communities were much nicer.  Global chat was often both interesting and helpful.  Idiots existed but always seemed to be a small minority.  The big difference, in my opinion, is not the evolution in game design so much as the evolution of payment methods.  In the "good old days" almost everyone playing had a credit card and was willing to invest $15 a month.  FTP has changed all that.

    nah .. i remember trains, killing stealing, loot ninjaing, camp drama ... playing solo is a lot nicer. 
    These type of actions were not often and people who made a habit of it got to be known server wide and were often banned from end game content from the community. So that type of person was not seen end game. Today, people pay 20 bucks and change their name and keep being an ass and the community has no recourse. Top that with all the new ways people scam today, I will take old school communities any day. My guess you were never there to judge or your just another type of poster. 
    Today .. training, loot ninjaing caps are all designed out of the game .... and become impossible to do. I like it better.

    And I don't remember a single person being banned for training or camp drama. Yes, you can exclude him or her from your group, but you can't stop him from training you, or ninjaing your loot.
    You Were playing on the wrong servers or the wrong game
    Oh, i certainly were playing the wrong game. Now i won't be playing any game that allows training, or ninja-looting, or camping.
    Thats OK, some people enjoy paintball, others prefer to play bocce....neither are wrong.
    Of course not. Obviously there are those who would "enjoy" training, camping, ninja-ing and so on .. after all, EQ has hundred of thousands of people (even after WoW siphoned off a bunch) playing for a long time. They obviously at least would not mind all that.

    Heck, even today, on this board, some are saying they want to go back to the camping days. While I would not in a million years play a game that requires me to camp, it is their prerogative to take a number in line to kill the boss, and chatting 95% of the time. 
  • ArglebargleArglebargle Member RarePosts: 2,894
    Scorchien said:
    For all the 'old days were better' talk, when UO gave people a choice, roughly 70% left for the calmer servers.
    Big misconception that many have , the orginal intent of Trammel was real estate .. period , they threw in the no PKs as basically a 2fer to appease a part of the community , but the prime reason players wanted and went to Trammel intially was real Estate , they was none left on many of the servers on normal shards ,and that brought quite the uproar, a big selling point of UO then was the awesome open world housing , when they couldnt provide land for folks to settle on Trammel was there answer..Thats why many left ...

      And as far as communitys go , they were far better in gen 1 MMORPGs , UO AC ,AO EQ etc.. al excellent communities..

    Not according to Gordon Walton.  

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    I think some people were frustrated in UO about having lost lots of time invested as there were lots of people PKing and stealing loot in almost unwinnable situations for a single player.

    On the flip side I think a lot of people just wanted to try something different. They had been playing the same game for a long time and wanted to try something new.

    My exodus to EQ and then WoW had something to do with it.  I don't feel many MMOs these days are that greatly different from WoW though.  It's generally not worth trying.

    I still enjoyed the old communities more for the reasons I already posted.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Flyte27 said:
      I don't feel many MMOs these days are that greatly different from WoW though.  It's generally not worth trying.
    Whether a game is worth trying or not, of course, is personal.

    But MMOs are not greatly differently from WoW?

    Don't tell me you think Marvel Heroes is not greatly different from WOW. The combat is different. The setting is different. The characters are totally different. There is not even an open world in MH.

    Don't tell me you think World of Tank is  not greatly different from WOW. Driving tanks in an instance is as far away from WoW as you can get.

    Don't tell me you think Warframe is not greatly different from WOW. There is nothing similar between a third person, futuristic shoot them up with RPG online elements, and a fantasy games with dungeons, raids, battle ground, and even an open world.

    ... there are lots and lots of examples. In fact, just take out all the fantasy RPG based MMOs, and you pretty much leave with stuff "greatly different from WOW".
  • CalmOceansCalmOceans Member UncommonPosts: 2,437
    edited December 2015
    I always advocated in EQ, to make the game accessible, including to people who only have 30 minutes to play.

    These suggestions were always met with resistance by a group of players. For some, having fun in an MMO is only possible if others don't have fun. As a result, many casuals no longer play EQ, even though it used to be the core group of the players. Raiding in EQ used to be a minority, one of the reasons I enjoyed raiding so much, was the ability to help groupers, but most now play WoW or Rift. Many EQ players now have jobs and kids, but still want to play MMO.

    There is an interesting experiment that was done once, it showed most people didn't want a 10% raise in pay, if it meant the people below them earned as much as them, they only wanted the raise if the people below still earned less than them. It is as if enjoyment for some comes from the suffering of others, feeling good for them, is only possible by comparing themselves to others.

    I enjoyed and enjoy EQ, and part of the community is great, but I have no illusions that it is only part of the community. You have the people who will deny others fun too, the people who look out for themselves, regardless of the cost to the community and eventually game.
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,593
    hear hear
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    Flyte27 said:
      I don't feel many MMOs these days are that greatly different from WoW though.  It's generally not worth trying.
    Whether a game is worth trying or not, of course, is personal.

    But MMOs are not greatly differently from WoW?

    Don't tell me you think Marvel Heroes is not greatly different from WOW. The combat is different. The setting is different. The characters are totally different. There is not even an open world in MH.

    Don't tell me you think World of Tank is  not greatly different from WOW. Driving tanks in an instance is as far away from WoW as you can get.

    Don't tell me you think Warframe is not greatly different from WOW. There is nothing similar between a third person, futuristic shoot them up with RPG online elements, and a fantasy games with dungeons, raids, battle ground, and even an open world.

    ... there are lots and lots of examples. In fact, just take out all the fantasy RPG based MMOs, and you pretty much leave with stuff "greatly different from WOW".
    They are fairly similar when I try them.  They have the same linear path with Quest exclamation marks you follow around all day.  The structure is the same even if the combat is a little different.
  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    I always advocated in EQ, to make the game accessible, including to people who only have 30 minutes to play.

    These suggestions were always met with resistance by a group of players. For some, having fun in an MMO is only possible if others don't have fun. As a result, many casuals no longer play EQ, even though it used to be the core group of the players. Raiding in EQ used to be a minority, one of the reasons I enjoyed raiding so much, was the ability to help groupers, but most now play WoW or Rift. Many EQ players now have jobs and kids, but still want to play MMO.

    There is an interesting experiment that was done once, it showed most people didn't want a 10% raise in pay, if it meant the people below them earned as much as them, they only wanted the raise if the people below still earned less than them. It is as if enjoyment for some comes from the suffering of others, feeling good for them, is only possible by comparing themselves to others.

    I enjoyed and enjoy EQ, and part of the community is great, but I have no illusions that it is only part of the community. You have the people who will deny others fun too, the people who look out for themselves, regardless of the cost to the community and eventually game.
    I still don't understand this attitude entirely.  Most of these games are built on the premise of combat and conquest.  If everyone was like you say in game then there would be little purpose to play.  Everyone would be in agreement and working together.  There would be no conflict that would cause there to be fighting in the first place.
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,593
    It's the paradox. We want combat and conquest but only on our terms so that means pve usually :)
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    It's the paradox. We want combat and conquest but only on our terms so that means pve usually :)
    It seems to go even further than that.  EQ was a PvE game, but apparently it still brought out to much deviant behavior to be accepted by most people.  To me it was fun though.  Kind of like the wild west without anyone really getting hurt.  The competition seemed to come through hording certain mobs, stealing kills, stealing loot, training, and things of that nature in EQ.  You had to have a competitive drive and determination to play the game I suppose.  Still it wasn't as bad as UO where you would get killed and looted constantly.  All I can say is it was emotion provoking and that was part of the entertainment I guess.  Not all entertainment brings out positive emotions.
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,593
    edited December 2015
    I know I'm hard on it but I had fun for my 3 years or so in EQ. Got druid to mid 30's, bard to 40ish, monk only to mid 20's.  When I left for CoH, well CoH kinda spoiled me for instant fast fun combat.

    I still go back occasionally (actually just started again) but without the people, it really isn't the same. I'm not super big on community but if the game is slow, the people can really make a difference.


    Although I was never into raiding, in any game really. Just not interested in it.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • ZardayneZardayne Member UncommonPosts: 66
    The communities in the old games were easy far superior to any I've played in recent history. The last good community I was in was Lotro. I've been MMOing since the second day of Ultima online and I've played almost all of the big ones and these games nowadays are nothing but single player games with an MMO tag on them. The last few (including ESO) I've played have players that obviously either turn off chat or don't know how to use it. You can run up to characters in a dungeon, town wherever and give them a hail and they just run off. I can rez some poor sap in a dungeon and most of the time you wont even get a thanks before they're running off to slay more mindless mobs. Myself and a few coworkers who are still trying to hang in there with this latest MMO crop get into discussions quite often and it seems like communities started going downhill when more and more voice comm was introduced. People got into their guild comms and disappeared from the MMO's chat channels leaving them somewhat barren. Back in the day you'd fire up Roger Wilco for a tough dungeon with a friend but afterwards you were back in local chat bartering, etc. Then you have ignorant gameplay moves like Zenimax's with ESO where characters don't even have character names or guild names visible so they might as well be an NPC. Long gone are the days of seeing a group of players taking keeps or clearing dungeons and being able to see their guild tag and going..later on I'm going to check into them and apply. Now you better hope you can get close enough to before they run off so that you ccan access the radial menu to get their name so you can message them. It's ridiculous..Sorry I'm rambling here and it's time for bed. I sure hope something comes along soon to pull us all back together. Something like Daoc where Realm pride made you want to get to know your realm mates and not just your guild mates.

    image
  • ZardayneZardayne Member UncommonPosts: 66
    edited December 2015
    One last thing as I saw the poster above me mention UO. One big thing about the older communities like UO was a PKer could start killing a bunch of miners in an area and word would travel that it was going on. Not only by word of mouth (chat) but also the white death robed folks running by. Before long a posse was formed and plans were made in local chat about how to Kill Dread Lord Blah Blah and it became an epic hunt and a feeling of accomplishment, of brotherhood. Nowadays, if you get ganked and a realm mate/team mate runs by they'll stop sometimes, chase those realm points or what have you to kill your killer, and then ride off into the sunset chasing the next points while you sigh and release back to the old bindstone. Now I'm not saying its like this always but it happens WAY more than it ever did back in the day. In the DAOC days as soon as you got ganked in an PVP zone you have 10 messages fromm nearby folks asking where did they go, how many, and before long someone was rezzing you and you were ready to rock again. Alot of times they were throwing you an invite so you were not running alone. next thing you know you made 5 friends and you were planning on hitting Emain Macha the next night. Damn I miss those days.

    image
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,593
    I never played UO but I have seen dozens if not hundreds of statements where people say they were repeatedly killed and despite asking help, it never came.  If it's not consistent enough, it might as well not even exist. I'm sure it happened that people were rescued and I'm equally sure a few did do this regularly, people are rescued in today's games even. However people haven't changed in a thousand years +, therefore I'm equally sure it was an uncommon occurrence and therefore couldn't be counted on.


    Maybe I'm wrong. But then there are all those posts...
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • cerulean2012cerulean2012 Member UncommonPosts: 492
    I have played quite a few MMOs over the years and I think communities today tend to be worse then in the past.  I wont say that past communities where perfect as there is always those that take a delight in causing trouble but it seems now-a-days things are worse.

    There could be a lot of reasons behind it, but I think a few things tend to make it tougher to have nicer communities.  Those being:  1.  The anonymity of the internet,  2.  The lack of making in-game guilds (or whatever name they use) relevant (able to join multiple guilds, not allowing guilds to give anything significant to members),  3.  F2P games (if you can download & play free no need to worry about bans/friends).

    I am sure there are more things and I know there will be those out there who will not agree with me, but these are my thoughts.
  • XiaokiXiaoki Member RarePosts: 3,358
    Scorchien said:
    For all the 'old days were better' talk, when UO gave people a choice, roughly 70% left for the calmer servers.
    Big misconception that many have , the orginal intent of Trammel was real estate .. period , they threw in the no PKs as basically a 2fer to appease a part of the community , but the prime reason players wanted and went to Trammel intially was real Estate , they was none left on many of the servers on normal shards ,and that brought quite the uproar, a big selling point of UO then was the awesome open world housing , when they couldnt provide land for folks to settle on Trammel was there answer..Thats why many left ...

      And as far as communitys go , they were far better in gen 1 MMORPGs , UO AC ,AO EQ etc.. al excellent communities..
    LOL no, not in the slightest.

    Gordon Walton, former Executive Producer of Ultima Online, said that more than 70% of new players to UO left within 60 days due to the hardcore PvP.

    To prevent UO from being shut down they released Trammel and subscriptions doubled.

    Before Trammel the horrible PvP centric community was literally killing the game.
  • kairel182kairel182 Member UncommonPosts: 287
    I remember majority of my experiences in earlier MMOs (pre-2004 mostly) as being vastly superior to the modern communities.  It became a problem with the massive influx of players the genre (and internet) had rarely seen as more and more people were able to access the internet at home at cheaper and more competitive prices.


    The older communities you'd know who was the resident douchenozzles simply by a built reputation.  It stuck with you.  There was no server transfer or name change; if you fucked up and fucked with people, you had to delete/reroll a character.  Actions had weight with severe consequences.  I miss those times, but it will never be that way again.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,634
    Xiaoki said:
    Scorchien said:
    For all the 'old days were better' talk, when UO gave people a choice, roughly 70% left for the calmer servers.
    Big misconception that many have , the orginal intent of Trammel was real estate .. period , they threw in the no PKs as basically a 2fer to appease a part of the community , but the prime reason players wanted and went to Trammel intially was real Estate , they was none left on many of the servers on normal shards ,and that brought quite the uproar, a big selling point of UO then was the awesome open world housing , when they couldnt provide land for folks to settle on Trammel was there answer..Thats why many left ...

      And as far as communitys go , they were far better in gen 1 MMORPGs , UO AC ,AO EQ etc.. al excellent communities..
    LOL no, not in the slightest.

    Gordon Walton, former Executive Producer of Ultima Online, said that more than 70% of new players to UO left within 60 days due to the hardcore PvP.

    To prevent UO from being shut down they released Trammel and subscriptions doubled.

    Before Trammel the horrible PvP centric community was literally killing the game.
    Or maybe it was just a bad game? Computer Gaming World gave it their "Coaster of the Year" award due largely to it's poor production values and ill thought out designs in some areas.

    No doubt though, unrestricted PVP is a terrible idea, players need to be able to control their level of risk or they just won't play.

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    kairel182 said:
    I remember majority of my experiences in earlier MMOs (pre-2004 mostly) as being vastly superior to the modern communities. 
    That is your preference. 

    I remember majority of my experiences in earlier MMOs (pre-2004 mostly) as being vastly INFERIOR to the modern GAMES. 
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,122
    zekeofev said:
    Yes, but I actually remember when my group was betrayed in eve and we all lost our ships because of it. I remember being spawn camped in WoW by world pvpers and how I was helped by someone and we became friends. I remember fighting for the tag on a world boss only to have the other raid engage us when we had the tag and for us to engage them when they did so no one could kill it for a long time.

    The bad makes the good stand out more. Removing all possibility of the bad diminishes how much the good feels in comparison. This works the same in real life where a goal is set but is failed to be met several times and then when it succeeds it is celebration worthy.

    I don't get that celebratory feeling from most MMOs on the market anymore.
    MMORPG's have lost their souls.  They're refined to the point of being sterile games only.  The 1st generation games were social and procedural experiments.  All of the data mining and numbers have left a corpse of a genre where every game is routine to maximize generic appeal to a broad audience.  
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775

    MMORPG's have lost their souls.  They're refined to the point of being sterile games only.  The 1st generation games were social and procedural experiments.  All of the data mining and numbers have left a corpse of a genre where every game is routine to maximize generic appeal to a broad audience.  
    Does it matter if they are more fun?

    If they are not more fun to YOU .. it just mean that devs no longer want to cater to your preferences. Is making games fun for a broad audience "lost their souls".

    What are "souls" of games anyway? Do devs have to be niche and make no money to have a soul?
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