Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Do you think forced-grouping could work if...

1679111214

Comments

  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 7,671
    observer said:
    Forced grouping will work, but only if there's enough people to support it.

    It also depends on the content, such as groups, raids, open-world events, etc...

    If it's open-world and questing, it usually doesn't work, because people do not want to waste time for trivial activities such as those, where the rewards are worse than instanced content.
    Good point on content. Many games have instanced-based content as their core feature. Problem now is, so many games offer so much solo-casual stuff and instanced-based stuff as the only thing that is grouped with a bunch of randoms that you'll probably never meet again just to accommodate convenience.

    Lets say a game did come out that was heavily grouped focused and have everything many people on this thread might want in terms of group focused. Chances are it wont have a healthy player-base since the people that voice their opinion will always be lower than the ones that don't. Its just like so many people voice so much disdain for the current state WoW is now, but when you look at every post made and tally it up, its only a small fraction in comparison to those that say nothing and let their wallets speak. That said, no one honestly knows why a person plays/leaves aside from maybe blizzard employees if people actually fill out the questionnaire about why people are not resubbing when you cancel your sub. Which means numbers > good gameplay systems in the case of many companies.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 4,198
    Dullahan said:
    There also hasn't been a new game resembling those of the first gen in over a decade.
    There hasn't been a car like a first generation Ford Mustang since 1973.

    Why ?

    Simple. Modern cars are much more reliable, faster, much much safer, pollute much less and use less fuel too. They also have many comfort elements that didn't even exist back then.

    Apply that to MMORPGs, and it works too.

    No one but a very small group of nostalgia struck old players want to go back to those tedious and boring grind games with boring downtime mechanics and forced grouping. And you can be sure that among those who ask for such a game to be made today thinking they will play it, most would have quit after a couple of months, realizing that actually, that MMO model sucked, and also that they don't have the kind of time to invest waste in such a game anymore.

    Proof being that all the games who attempted to emulate those old, tedious and boring mechanics since 2004 have all failed. Because players, even old timers like me and many others, know better now. And given the choice, which they didn't have back then, they will play a FUN game where they aren't forced into one specific play style.

    I disagree with that there have been attempts at that type of game.  There have been almost no attempts to make any old MMORPG except Shadowbane style PvP games.  

    I disagree that all old game mechanics are outdated.  For the record I am not talking about exclusively about EQ which seems to be the WoW of nostalgia.  

    WoW created a gold rush.  Everyone went to California in the MMORPG genre.  Other type of games never got a chance to mature.  SWG is probably more advanced than any other MMORPG, disregarding UI and general playability.  
  • Scott23Scott23 Member UncommonPosts: 293
    Most people will follow the path of least resistance.  If it is more efficient to achieve their goal by grouping then people will group.  If these goals can be achieved solo then most people will solo - as running solo is usually less hassle. 
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Scott23 said:
    Most people will follow the path of least resistance.  If it is more efficient to achieve their goal by grouping then people will group.  If these goals can be achieved solo then most people will solo - as running solo is usually less hassle. 
    yeh .... and is there a reason not to provide people with gameplay that achieve their goals with "less hassle" (in your words).


  • mrrshann618mrrshann618 Member UncommonPosts: 279
    iixviiiix said:
    @mrrshann618
    Problem is people do difference quests and not same one . That's one part i dislike about quests as leveling tools.
    You can't group in those quests hub game without lost something . Grouping in those game like punishment than reward.

    You ask why most people don't group in most new MMO ?
    Difference object (quests)
    Difference power (gears , level , skill)
    Difference real life time (login time)

    It's hard to group with people you know , and it's impossible with people you meet one or 2 time.
    Actually Most of the above comments are why I used SWTOR's H2's as an example.
    They are identical for everyone.
    Everyone with the quest has the quick travel button so no waiting.
    They are easily shareable for those who do not have them.
    and
    They are fairly quick. You do not need to know the person longer than the few minuets needed to complete the quest. You can group for the 20 min, not be social other than the "wanna group", and part your ways like two people on a subway.

    Everyone benefits, and you never know, 1 out of the 30 times you try you might make a friend.
    Play what you Like. I like SWOTR, Have a referral to get you going!
    -->  http://www.swtor.com/r/nBndbs  <--
    Several Unlocks and a few days game time to make the F2P considerably easier
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    edited November 2015
    You can design a total grouping game which many would scoff is FORCED but it does not have to be and still works really well,case in point FFXI.
    All your pros are to group but if you don't want to there is nothing FORCING you to group.You could solo to 30 and then grab a soloing class/job like Summoner or the better choice Beastmaster.

    As a much older game they then added what are known to common gamers as mercenaries,basically tons of game NPC's come to life as your companions.I wouldn't mind starting a game like that but allow players to do  quests in attaining them or perhaps secret ideas to attain them.

    None the less if your game is designed well covers most bases,you can enjoy any way you want,however imo grouping should be the main focus of a online game,it only makes sense.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • Scott23Scott23 Member UncommonPosts: 293
    edited November 2015
    Scott23 said:
    Most people will follow the path of least resistance.  If it is more efficient to achieve their goal by grouping then people will group.  If these goals can be achieved solo then most people will solo - as running solo is usually less hassle. 
    yeh .... and is there a reason not to provide people with gameplay that achieve their goals with "less hassle" (in your words).



    Not necessarily.  I don't have a horse in this race.  In fact I would probably solo or duo any game that I play nowadays.

    If you design a system where the best loot or faster progression is best achieved by grouping then the majority of people will group.  If you have a couple of classes that can solo efficiently you will find that they become the predominant class.

    It is human nature.
  • time007time007 Member UncommonPosts: 1,062
    yes forced grouping would be awesome

    IMPORTANT:  Please keep all replies to my posts about GAMING.  Please no negative or backhanded comments directed at me personally.  If you are going to post a reply that includes how you feel about me, please don't bother replying & just ignore my post instead.  I'm on this forum to talk about GAMING.  Thank you.
  • GruugGruug Member RarePosts: 1,789
    Whenever I see "forced grouping" ideas my eyes just roll. I am not playing a game because I have to be forced to do something I do not wish to. If I want to play with a group, it should be MY CHOICE and never forced. I like to play in a group IF it is with friends and/or family. If not, I would rather just go solo. That does not mean I am not "social" in games. I have made many online friends playing MMOs. However, the one thing that all of my friend and family agree is that we would never play a game that forced us into grouping situations with people we have no idea who they are. Too many egos to deal with. Too many god complexes to avoid. We just want to have fun. So to that end there is no method of "forced" grouping (or anything for that matter) that  would be acceptable.

    Let's party like it is 1863!

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Gruug said:
    Whenever I see "forced grouping" ideas my eyes just roll. I am not playing a game because I have to be forced to do something I do not wish to. If I want to play with a group, it should be MY CHOICE and never forced. I like to play in a group IF it is with friends and/or family. If not, I would rather just go solo. That does not mean I am not "social" in games. I have made many online friends playing MMOs. However, the one thing that all of my friend and family agree is that we would never play a game that forced us into grouping situations with people we have no idea who they are. Too many egos to deal with. Too many god complexes to avoid. We just want to have fun. So to that end there is no method of "forced" grouping (or anything for that matter) that  would be acceptable.
    I don't think there is a problem. You can always find groups that you can solo.

    There are so many games, essentially i just NOT play the ones i don't like .. no matter how small the issue is.
  • DeathofsageDeathofsage Member UncommonPosts: 1,102
    Dullahan said:
    There also hasn't been a new game resembling those of the first gen in over a decade.
    There hasn't been a car like a first generation Ford Mustang since 1973.

    Why ?

    Simple. Modern cars are much more reliable, faster, much much safer, pollute much less and use less fuel too. They also have many comfort elements that didn't even exist back then.

    Apply that to MMORPGs, and it works too.

    No one but a very small group of nostalgia struck old players want to go back to those tedious and boring grind games with boring downtime mechanics and forced grouping. And you can be sure that among those who ask for such a game to be made today thinking they will play it, most would have quit after a couple of months, realizing that actually, that MMO model sucked, and also that they don't have the kind of time to invest waste in such a game anymore.

    Proof being that all the games who attempted to emulate those old, tedious and boring mechanics since 2004 have all failed. Because players, even old timers like me and many others, know better now. And given the choice, which they didn't have back then, they will play a FUN game where they aren't forced into one specific play style.
    Been away a bit but I wanted to reply to this--

    You make a great point, that supports what I'm looking for.

    Seen the Camaros, mustangs, and challengers of the last decade? They went, in varying degrees, back to the style of the old designs. Other cars have done this too.

    That doesn't mean they put less-efficient parts in them or less-effective safety measures. They acknowledged what was good, what people loved, and responsibly adapted the rest. The result has been such a success that competitors followed.

    Old MMOs sucked in a lot of ways. FFXI's Relic and Mythic weapons required an obscene level of dedication. Relics not so much anymore, but mythics still actually do (Mythics had a lot of gateway requirements that still are a pain to meet). It could and would legitimately take a guild a year or more to build mythics because they took that long. You could shorten some of it buy buying alexandrite from other players but that was expensive too.

    Like better airbags and shatter-resistant glass in cars, MMO developers have learned a great number of lessons about the psychology of MMO players and to what degrees elements are fun. Grouping? Fun. Looking for a group? Not really fun, unless you can do enjoyable things while looking for a group. Unable to find a group for hours/days? Not fun at all.

    Everyone working together to defeat a boss, and succeeding? Fun. Getting nothing but a worthless drop like a chunk of copper ore? Not fun. Accruing guaranteed points towards buying the drop while also potentially just getting the drop directly from the monster? Fun (in the case the drop is directly gotten, the points can be used towards another goal).

    I've stated several things that I would change about old-style MMOs to alleviate the weaknesses in a "forced-grouping" situation, such as allowing players to be on one job/class while seeking for another. Giving players a larger experience bonus earned in group the longer they waited in the LFG pool. Tanks, who queue the fasted, would get the least benefit, but they can reliably queue quickly.

    The thing is, I've never personally played an MMORPG that didn't require a group to get current-great gear besides a few bosses that can be gibbed due to a mechanic. The problem, as I've said, is that this doesn't occur til level-cap and then you have a great number of people who don't understand their class in the slightest degree, because grouping wasn't incentivized*. Soloing, for some sick reason, is always made the most effective route for players who aren't tanks, healers, or queuing with one or the other.

    When newbies don't learn group play for their class, they annoy and frustrate players that do and the community degenerates. The noobs hate the elitists for being mean and the elitists hate the noobs for not having beat the boss before fighting the boss.

    Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
    12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.

  • flguy147flguy147 Member UncommonPosts: 507
    Dibdabs said:
    Do you think forced-grouping for decent experience-gain would be acceptable in a modern MMO...
    Forced grouping is totally unacceptable in a modern MMO, and it wouldn't last 5 seconds on my hard drive if that turned out to be the case in a new game I started playing.

    The quality of the community these days is so shit that I'd hate being forced into close proximity to most players.
    Gotta agree with you on this.  The quality of the players has what has killed grouping i think.  I dont mean quality of how good a player is but the quality of just being a respectful person.  I dont deal with punks in real life and i am not going to deal with them in a group in an MMO.    So when half the groups i get in there are rude people then i have zero problem leaving in the middle of a dungeon.  It doesnt matter if they are rude to me or to another person in the group.  I log on to relax, i have a stressful career and the with a 1.5 yr old daughter now and the last thing i want in my free time is to deal with punks in a video  game.  And i LOVE grouping but now there are too many bad and rude people in groups that it has a negative impact i have on grouping so i choose not to group as much anymore.
  • ausj3w3lausj3w3l Member UncommonPosts: 9
    flguy147 said:
    Dibdabs said:
    Do you think forced-grouping for decent experience-gain would be acceptable in a modern MMO...
    Forced grouping is totally unacceptable in a modern MMO, and it wouldn't last 5 seconds on my hard drive if that turned out to be the case in a new game I started playing.

    The quality of the community these days is so shit that I'd hate being forced into close proximity to most players.
    Gotta agree with you on this.  The quality of the players has what has killed grouping i think.  I dont mean quality of how good a player is but the quality of just being a respectful person.  I dont deal with punks in real life and i am not going to deal with them in a group in an MMO.    So when half the groups i get in there are rude people then i have zero problem leaving in the middle of a dungeon.  It doesnt matter if they are rude to me or to another person in the group.  I log on to relax, i have a stressful career and the with a 1.5 yr old daughter now and the last thing i want in my free time is to deal with punks in a video  game.  And i LOVE grouping but now there are too many bad and rude people in groups that it has a negative impact i have on grouping so i choose not to group as much anymore.
    a good thing about those mmo's that emphasis, or even force grouping though is that those type of players don't get very far... because a lot of people think like you and won't put up with ti
  • AntiquatedAntiquated Member RarePosts: 1,415
    edited November 2015
    A new mmo is either going to emphasize the future, or the past.

    Nostalgia marketing works great on certain people who believe the MMO best days are already behind them. That's a powerful pitch.

    Both approaches will net some cash. How much cash will depend more on the quality of the product than the quality of the marketing.

    I'm just not into re-playing old games. If I were, I'd choose MUDs; a much more verbal and imaginative "immersion" experience.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    ausj3w3l said:

    a good thing about those mmo's that emphasis, or even force grouping though is that those type of players don't get very far... because a lot of people think like you and won't put up with ti
    yeh, there is no point putting up with anyone in online entertainment. It is not like i have to face the stranger the day after. 
  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,772
    edited November 2015
    A new mmo is either going to emphasize the future, or the past.

    Nostalgia marketing works great on certain people who believe the MMO best days are already behind them. That's a powerful pitch.

    Both approaches will net some cash. How much cash will depend more on the quality of the product than the quality of the marketing.

    I'm just not into re-playing old games. If I were, I'd choose MUDs; a much more verbal and imaginative "immersion" experience.
    And yet practically every other month another solo-centric quest-based WoW-clone is churned out, only to fail.

    Both "forced grouping" and what you could call "forced soloing" MMOs were originated in the past.  The difference is nobody has tried making a forced grouping MMO in the past decade.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775

    And yet practically every other month another solo-centric quest-based WoW-clone is churned out, only to fail.


    What are you talking about? Who is churning out wow-clones anymore? At least the western AAA devs have abandoned MMORPGs. They may make online games, but it is more likely to be a MOBA, shooter, even card games, before they will make wow-like MMORPGs.

    Heck, even Blizz is no longer making new MMORPGs. 
  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    I think 'forced' in a game is a bad idea.

    basically if you have to 'force' people to group then there is something wrong with your group design and the answer is not to force people to do it but rather find ways to make it more appealing...or as more likely the case...somehow fix the toxic community which is usually not possible.

    'forced grouping' to me sounds like 'I am mean to people that that is why I dont have friends, they should make it a requirement for me to have more people to tick off'

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    SEANMCAD said:
    I think 'forced' in a game is a bad idea.

    basically if you have to 'force' people to group then there is something wrong with your group design and the answer is not to force people to do it but rather find ways to make it more appealing...or as more likely the case...somehow fix the toxic community which is usually not possible.

    'forced grouping' to me sounds like 'I am mean to people that that is why I dont have friends, they should make it a requirement for me to have more people to tick off'
    NOBODY means forced, there has  never been a FORCED grouping game ever.

    I am sure Eve players will tell you "join a Corp",most games will say "join a guild",every single game has a NEED for grouping but it is never forced.

    Without mentioning the term forced,grouping would obviously have a benefit,it only makes sense,so just because it benefits you as a player it doesn't make it FORCED,it just makes it an intelligent decision to want to group.

    I don't know why people constantly make excuses why they shouldn't group,yet they have joined a MMO to game,,makes no sense what so ever.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    edited November 2015
    Because MMO's are about far more than grouping. If you don't get that by now there is no hope for you.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,772
    edited November 2015
    And yet practically every other month another solo-centric quest-based WoW-clone is churned out, only to fail.
    Games like SW:TOR and ESO seem to do pretty well despite all the doomsayers...
    Not to mention games which aren't WoW clones like GW2.
    That's 3 WoW clones (GW2 is definitely a WoW clone- if GW2 represents "new and different from WoW" to everyone, I fear for the future of ingenuity in MMOs) that are doing OK, after a couple of them went f2p.

    But they didn't do as well as expected (except GW2).

    And for those 3 there are many that didn't do well at all.

    Any way, my point is forced soloing MMOs are as much of a relic from the past as forced grouping ones are.  The difference is nobody has tried a forced grouping one in the past decade.
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    edited November 2015
    And no one has tried to mass market a horse and buggy set in the last decade either.

    I guess there is a chance it could work.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,772
    And no one has tried to mass market a horse and buggy set in the last decade either.

    I guess there is a chance it could work.
    Last forced grouping game was ffxi in 2001. Most games copy WoW's forced soloing which started in what, 2003? Your analogy makes sense only if you think 2001 is ancient compared to 2003.
  • AntiquatedAntiquated Member RarePosts: 1,415
    edited November 2015
    holdenhamlet said:That's 3 WoW clones (GW2 is definitely a WoW clone- if GW2 represents "new and different from WoW" to everyone, I fear for the future of ingenuity in MMOs) that are doing OK, after a couple of them went f2p.

    But they didn't do as well as expected (except GW2).

    And for those 3 there are many that didn't do well at all.
    This is baffling, when we're holding up games that stalled at 500k subs, then went into free-fall, as the paragons of virtue.

    Yet newer games, making far more money, are "failing." Would you think this might be because of necessary spin required to establish a Crisis that isn't there?

    Just restoring some perspective to this conversational drift.

    How's FFXIV doing? Oh, three times as well as XI ever did? But "not as well as expected" = "Fail," right?

    Hmm, XIV was the game declared dead, then resurrected. I wonder how that fits into this weird binary cosmology.
    Post edited by Antiquated on
  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,772
    edited November 2015
    And yet practically every other month another solo-centric quest-based WoW-clone is churned out, only to fail.
    Games like SW:TOR and ESO seem to do pretty well despite all the doomsayers...
    Not to mention games which aren't WoW clones like GW2.
    That's 3 WoW clones (GW2 is definitely a WoW clone- if GW2 represents "new and different from WoW" to everyone, I fear for the future of ingenuity in MMOs) that are doing OK, after a couple of them went f2p.

    But they didn't do as well as expected (except GW2).

    And for those 3 there are many that didn't do well at all.

    Any way, my point is forced soloing MMOs are as much of a relic from the past as forced grouping ones are.  The difference is nobody has tried a forced grouping one in the past decade.
    I see that non-argument often, and it always make me smile... because there is no such thing as forced soloing.
    You can force people to group by making enemies not "soloable", but you can't force people to solo by making enemies not "groupable". Well, I can imagine a few ways to achieve that, but no sane developer would do that, and none actually did.

    Right now, I'm having a couple of "casual" rerolls in WoW on a French server, because some real life friends aren't good enough English readers to play on international servers, and we only play them together, grouped, be it for simple quests, or most of the times, for dungeons. We never play those characters solo. But it's OUR choice, it's not forced on us. So where's your "forced soloing" of WoW clones ? It does NOT exist. If you feel forced to solo in those games, then the problem is not the game, but you.

    And if GW2 is a WoW clone, then Asheron's Call was a WoW clone too.

    SEANMCAD said:
    I think 'forced' in a game is a bad idea.

    basically if you have to 'force' people to group then there is something wrong with your group design and the answer is not to force people to do it but rather find ways to make it more appealing...or as more likely the case...somehow fix the toxic community which is usually not possible.

    'forced grouping' to me sounds like 'I am mean to people that that is why I dont have friends, they should make it a requirement for me to have more people to tick off'
    Very insightful post.
    If forced soloing doesn't exist than forced grouping doesn't exist either.  The key is to not take the term literally.
     
    You can solo in forced grouping games too.  Beastmaster for example was a totally solo job when ffxi was a completely forced grouping game.  But just like WoW is built to be played mostly solo, ffxi was originally built to be played mostly in a group.

    You and your friends would probably have a better time in a forced grouping game that was built around grouping since you're always in a group.  But yeah you can group in a forced soloing game just like you can solo in a forced grouping game... if you want.  But why would you want to?

    You're missing out on what the game is built for (soloing and occasional grouping in WoW or grouping and occasional solo in old ffxi).

    Most people in this thread are responding to the word "forced" more than what we're actually suggesting, which is a game focused on grouping instead of soloing.

    I mean yeah you can do dungeons together in WoW but the bulk of the game is solo questing.  I really doubt you guys do much of the quests together because that would just bore you to tears with how easy they would be to complete in a group (they're already almost too easy solo to begin with).

    So, sure, soloing isn't forced in Wow, but you need to solo if you want to experience the game the way it was built to be played.  In the same way grouping wasn't forced in old ffxi- but if you wanted to experience the bulk of the game- you needed to be in a group to do it.
Sign In or Register to comment.