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Zerg trains

arcundoarcundo Member UncommonPosts: 88
edited November 2015 in Camelot Unchained
Seems to me that zerg trains is a part of RvR PvP. At least it certainly was in the only one I have played (TESO). This took away from the feeling that one player mattered, and overall took away from the fun, even if you were in the train.  This is one one the reasons that I like GvG and BattleGrounds better.  Of course you can zerged protecting blacksmith in Arathi Basin, but not anything like zerg train.

I think people have said that DAoC was sliglty less zerg train based than TESO. And one could argue that mega server is the reason why TESO is zerg train based, but then again it did have campaigns, so it had some numbers cap. But can someone that played both TESO and DAoC explain to me what made TESO extra zerg train based?

Also in this weekends class reveal. Mark Jacobs said that Dark Fool is the numbers limiting class. But do CU have anything else that work against zerg trains?

Comments

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 15,894
    If you mean large scale unscripted combat as opposed to something with a timer and scoreboard, then NO CU will not.  You will have large groups, you will have small groups, you will have solo folks.  You will not have a scoreboard giving you points while you capture the flag.  If you are looking for an always balanced sporting event you will not find it here.

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  • arcundoarcundo Member UncommonPosts: 88
    There is nothing wrong with large scale unscriptet combat (like for instance seen in Crossroads, WoW). And I do not necessarily need a scoreboard. So this is not exactly a thread wether CU should have battlegrounds or not (eventhough i think they are confirmed), but a thread to find out wether zerg trains (a lot of players running closely as in a "demonstration formation" and taking out one and one target often not aware that it will be a fight), running with AoE, will be dominating PvP in CU. If you have been around keeps in Cyrodiil/TESO you have probably seen them.

    I think one of the reasons for this being popular was that you got the most pvpxp by it. Taking objectives was less effective PvPXPwise. So this is one thing that can be looked at to remedy some of this problem.

    Zerg trains take away the possibility for good intentions for PvP happing (that small groups can fight small groups, small guilds can take small objectives etc.) Also most members in a zerg train doenst really do anything som it is not fun that way either.




  • JamesGoblinJamesGoblin Member RarePosts: 1,242
    Here's CU Wiki on zergs and Realm balance, speaking of CU vs ESO zerging.
     W...aaagh?
  • arcundoarcundo Member UncommonPosts: 88
    I liked this one:
    • Veilstorms will be triggered by strong concentration of magic, thus being much more likely to appear where the zergs are
  • LedrirLedrir Member UncommonPosts: 69
    arcundo said:
    I liked this one:
    • Veilstorms will be triggered by strong concentration of magic, thus being much more likely to appear where the zergs are
    I loved DAOC but IMO one of the things that destroyed the population of DAOC was moving the game away from fighting as a realm and focusing on the more hardcore 8v8 and 1v1.  In that environment there wasn't much of a place left for casual gamers except to play in the battle grounds.

    I want there to be all types of fighting including the zergs, 8v8, 1v1 and any other combination.  However IMO there has to be some type of division or ladders between the different level of skill, realm ranks, equipment etc.. of players.  A zerg is one way to allow the weaker players to still participate in the realm wars and contribute. 

    I would recommend that CU put alot of effort into designing ways for casual players to have fun and contribute in the realm war or unfortunately this game will fall to the same numbers that DAOC currently has.
  • vadio123vadio123 Member UncommonPosts: 593
    cant speak for daoc , but in warhammer with 

    1 - NO AOE CAP , (ESO did before introduced this stupid thing) 
    i remid in both game my 5 party man kill 40+ just because our burst damage are high and not ca on it 

    2 - Respaw zone and Speed , objectives and time to spend need run back are large 

  • KonfessKonfess Member RarePosts: 1,667

    My experience with zerg RvR was positive.  In the original Planetside, there were 3 realms.  With 10 combat zones.  Each zone had approximately 16 fortresses to capture or defend.  Most often the fight was RvR, rarely it became RvRvR.  I know I am talking about MMOFPS vs MMORPG, but the RvR is basically the same.


    My guild was basically of 10 once held one of these fortresses on a uncontested zone.  At first the fight was small 10 vs 4.  But it grew to 10 vs 35 and we held for 4.5 hours total.  There was no record of this in game, but we felt proud of what we had done.


    It may seem like nothing but a zerg train, but I assure you there are organized groups, solo player, and the wave of humanity coming at you.  In game there is no recognition for the single player.  Outside of game on the official website they will post a leader board with the number of kills and a ranking.


    Rather than complain about a feature in a game you don’t like and won’t be changed.  State as clearly and precisely a feature that you do want.  May be the next great indie developer we read it and think why don’t I give this a try and see how it goes over with everybody.  But when all you do is say, I want something different, better, or original then you aren’t saying a thing they can possibly implement.

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  • LedrirLedrir Member UncommonPosts: 69
    Konfess said:

    Rather than complain about a feature in a game you don’t like and won’t be changed.  State as clearly and precisely a feature that you do want.  May be the next great indie developer we read it and think why don’t I give this a try and see how it goes over with everybody.  But when all you do is say, I want something different, better, or original then you aren’t saying a thing they can possibly implement.
    My recommendation is that the game encourage zergs for realm related objectives and realm rank based battlegrounds for fast small group pvp. 

    Based on my experience with DAOC I have seen that there are hardcore players that are not motivated by realm objectives but only want to pvp against equal numbers.  These hardcore players strongly dislike zergs and may even try to encourage player rules of combat.

    I would recommend that battlegrounds be created with realm rank caps so that only players of equal ability can enter and fight each other.  I will use the term realm rank because that is what DAOC used and I don't know the term that will be used in CU.

    At the very least I would have a battleground for each rank range 0-4, 5-9, 10-14, etc.. The battlegrounds would be for people looking for fast small group pvp.  The frontiers with realm objectives would the be considered strictly for rvr and would encourage zergs.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 17,916
    I don't understand why people say they don't like large scale battles (a.k.a. zerg vs. zerg to those who don't like it.) They are a hell of a lot of fun and in no way do they take away from also enjoying smaller skirmishes. Even in those large scale battles there is lots of opportunity for small or even solo fights in the periphery.

    I've always enjoyed them in all the games I've ever played. What I don't enjoy is the sports arena like scoreboard watching PVP - that's just an artificial immersion killer. To me the biggest mistake Mark and company made in Warhammer Online was having both types. It was annoying in the extreme to lose half of your group when a scenario popped.
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  • arcundoarcundo Member UncommonPosts: 88
    edited November 2015
    Iselin said:
    I don't understand why people say they don't like large scale battles (a.k.a. zerg vs. zerg to those who don't like it.) They are a hell of a lot of fun and in no way do they take away from also enjoying smaller skirmishes. Even in those large scale battles there is lots of opportunity for small or even solo fights in the periphery.

    I've always enjoyed them in all the games I've ever played. What I don't enjoy is the sports arena like scoreboard watching PVP - that's just an artificial immersion killer. To me the biggest mistake Mark and company made in Warhammer Online was having both types. It was annoying in the extreme to lose half of your group when a scenario popped.
    Large scale battles, smaller skirmishes etc. All fun. I also like BG, Arena and GvG.

    I remember you on these forums from pre-ESO-launch as a ESO fan (I mean this in a good way, as a I followed the game myself with some enthusiasm), and the profile picture also tells so. ESO is the only RvR I have tried, so I tried to figure out whether the zerg train is a ESO phenomena or a RvR in general phenomena.

    Short definition of zerg train in my own words: "protest march"-formation (or train formation) of many player characters hitting one single target at the time for pvpxp.

    Zerg trains makes no sense to me, as I guess I like more objectivebased combat. If City State Games should choose to take measures against zerg trains for CU, then that is good work for this game.
  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    arcundo said:
    Seems to me that zerg trains is a part of RvR PvP. At least it certainly was in the only one I have played (TESO). This took away from the feeling that one player mattered, and overall took away from the fun, even if you were in the train.  This is one one the reasons that I like GvG and BattleGrounds better.  Of course you can zerged protecting blacksmith in Arathi Basin, but not anything like zerg train.

    I think people have said that DAoC was sliglty less zerg train based than TESO. And one could argue that mega server is the reason why TESO is zerg train based, but then again it did have campaigns, so it had some numbers cap. But can someone that played both TESO and DAoC explain to me what made TESO extra zerg train based?

    Also in this weekends class reveal. Mark Jacobs said that Dark Fool is the numbers limiting class. But do CU have anything else that work against zerg trains?

    I don't see it as part of RVR PVP.  That sounds like someone trying to build a case to leash mobs in pve areas. To hell with that.
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  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk Member RarePosts: 1,571
    Zergs are inevitable in RvR games. When you get a large number of players but you lack the discipline and organised ranks of an army, you get a zerg. There's no way around it, it's gonna happen. I don't see what the devs can do about this really. It's less about game mechanics and more about human nature.

    Lacking direction and leadership your mob acts like a mob (mob as in, large group of people, not a creature in an MMO). This is where smaller, more organised groups can stand out from the crowd and their actions make a difference.

    If you want to avoid the zerg then get into a well organised guild.
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 17,916
    arcundo said:
    Iselin said:
    I don't understand why people say they don't like large scale battles (a.k.a. zerg vs. zerg to those who don't like it.) They are a hell of a lot of fun and in no way do they take away from also enjoying smaller skirmishes. Even in those large scale battles there is lots of opportunity for small or even solo fights in the periphery.

    I've always enjoyed them in all the games I've ever played. What I don't enjoy is the sports arena like scoreboard watching PVP - that's just an artificial immersion killer. To me the biggest mistake Mark and company made in Warhammer Online was having both types. It was annoying in the extreme to lose half of your group when a scenario popped.
    Large scale battles, smaller skirmishes etc. All fun. I also like BG, Arena and GvG.

    I remember you on these forums from pre-ESO-launch as a ESO fan (I mean this in a good way, as a I followed the game myself with some enthusiasm), and the profile picture also tells so. ESO is the only RvR I have tried, so I tried to figure out whether the zerg train is a ESO phenomena or a RvR in general phenomena.

    Short definition of zerg train in my own words: "protest march"-formation (or train formation) of many player characters hitting one single target at the time for pvpxp.

    Zerg trains makes no sense to me, as I guess I like more objectivebased combat. If City State Games should choose to take measures against zerg trains for CU, then that is good work for this game.
    The thing is that PVPers are no different than anyone else when it comes to min/maxing. One popular way to succeed in open PVP like ESO is by forming "bomb groups" of 20+ using TS and coordinating ultimates. I've been in those but, frankly, I find that boring after a while... there's no denying that they can own so many do it - especially newer players who want the safety of a large group.

    I prefer small groups ganking reinforcements while large groups take the keep; playing cat and mouse games flagging a keep by myself to try to fake out the other side about where we're going to hit next, etc. ESO has room for that as well as solo ganking as an assassin. The thing is that ESO splits alliance point rewards among the group in the general area: the larger the group, the smaller the rewards. As a matter of fact, the most efficient way to rack-up alliance points is to be in a small group of 3 or 4 NOT in a zerg.

    As to CU.... I'm also looking forward to it but I have no illusions about PVP min/maxers finding ways to use whatever tactic gives them an edge. If that's a zerg, then that's what they will do.

    Looking at DAoC, WAR, GW2 or ESO and saying they were/are all about zerging is a very superficial view of what the PVP has to offer, but they all had them.

    Being part of a very large battle can also have an epic feel. Not long ago I spent the better part of a Sunday afternoon playing ESO in a force of about 40 defending a key keep against about 100. It was almost non stop for about 4 hours and we finally held them. It was a helluva lot of fun not to mention that a shared experience like that is one of the best ways to build communities and make new friends.

    What I have against small scale scenario based BGs or arenas with scoreboards is that they are all about individual accomplishments. Too eSporty for my taste. What they do is the opposite of community building.
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  • arcundoarcundo Member UncommonPosts: 88
    edited November 2015
    Iselin said:
    The thing is that PVPers are no different than anyone else when it comes to min/maxing. One popular way to succeed in open PVP like ESO is by forming "bomb groups" of 20+ using TS and coordinating ultimates. I've been in those but, frankly, I find that boring after a while... there's no denying that they can own so many do it - especially newer players who want the safety of a large group.

    I prefer small groups ganking reinforcements while large groups take the keep; playing cat and mouse games flagging a keep by myself to try to fake out the other side about where we're going to hit next, etc. ESO has room for that as well as solo ganking as an assassin. The thing is that ESO splits alliance point rewards among the group in the general area: the larger the group, the smaller the rewards. As a matter of fact, the most efficient way to rack-up alliance points is to be in a small group of 3 or 4 NOT in a zerg.

    As to CU.... I'm also looking forward to it but I have no illusions about PVP min/maxers finding ways to use whatever tactic gives them an edge. If that's a zerg, then that's what they will do.

    Looking at DAoC, WAR, GW2 or ESO and saying they were/are all about zerging is a very superficial view of what the PVP has to offer, but they all had them.

    Being part of a very large battle can also have an epic feel. Not long ago I spent the better part of a Sunday afternoon playing ESO in a force of about 40 defending a key keep against about 100. It was almost non stop for about 4 hours and we finally held them. It was a helluva lot of fun not to mention that a shared experience like that is one of the best ways to build communities and make new friends.

    What I have against small scale scenario based BGs or arenas with scoreboards is that they are all about individual accomplishments. Too eSporty for my taste. What they do is the opposite of community building.

    Yay, finally one who gets what I am talking about and admits it is in TESO!! =) 20+/TS/coordinating ultimates is what many including me is calling zerg trains. Like I have said earlier in the thread I as well has been in those, and find them boring after a short while.

    Like you say most players will min/max and it is nothing wrong with that. But in my opinion if devs give better rewards/pvpxp for taking/defending objectives than for 20+ to take out one man, then other things than zerg trians will be the choice for min/maxers

    What you describe about small group is the kind of gameplay the devs intend I think. And that kind of gameplay sure is exciting. I used to be more in the receiving in end of it as a like to transport materials and help get things crafted. But if it hadn't been for the groups you describe the tension wouldn't have been there. Les hope we will see a lot of this in CU and little of zerg trains.

    I totally agree with you and others in this thread that zerg vs zerg can be fun. And that it will happen in CU. I just want devs to take measure to avoid the silly zerg trains.

    I for one do not say that DAoC, WAR, GW2 or ESO is all about zerging. I do know that even ESO had some 1vs1 and smaller groups vs smaller groups. And it is nothing wrong with those games having zergs. But based on my PvP experience i ESO i think RvR has a stronger tendancy to unbalanced zergs than faction vs faction, or faction/guild MMOs.  But it is all about taste. Openworld RvR and BG for instance have different strengths and weaknesses when it comes to good PvP.



  • TsaboHavocTsaboHavoc Member UncommonPosts: 435
    friendly fire and important spread out objetives.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 41,527
    DAOC had Zergs but not like modern day trains and IMO a big reason was the very powerful crowd control which could keep you immobilized or totally paralyzed for up to a minute. Couple it with some TOA abilities and a single 8 man could beat 4 full groups. (Probably taking things a bit too far)

    They probably aren't going to repeat the same level of CC but it was a pretty good counter to the zerg

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  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 17,916
    Kyleran said:
    DAOC had Zergs but not like modern day trains and IMO a big reason was the very powerful crowd control which could keep you immobilized or totally paralyzed for up to a minute. Couple it with some TOA abilities and a single 8 man could beat 4 full groups. (Probably taking things a bit too far)

    They probably aren't going to repeat the same level of CC but it was a pretty good counter to the zerg


    Before I re-specced to Air, I was an Ice/EArth Theurgist. That would have been me rooting whole zergs in Guinevere :)
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  • BellomoBellomo Member UncommonPosts: 184
    If you mean large scale unscripted combat as opposed to something with a timer and scoreboard, then NO CU will not.  You will have large groups, you will have small groups, you will have solo folks.  You will not have a scoreboard giving you points while you capture the flag.  If you are looking for an always balanced sporting event you will not find it here.


    I hope you're right cause I want to play this.
  • LedrirLedrir Member UncommonPosts: 69
    Kyleran said:
    DAOC had Zergs but not like modern day trains and IMO a big reason was the very powerful crowd control which could keep you immobilized or totally paralyzed for up to a minute. Couple it with some TOA abilities and a single 8 man could beat 4 full groups. (Probably taking things a bit too far)

    They probably aren't going to repeat the same level of CC but it was a pretty good counter to the zerg

    The problem that never gets brought up is the power level of players who play alot.  These players will have better gear, more powerful abilities and will play so much that they are well oiled killing machines.  I have nothing against these hardcore players but their elite killing abilities will kill off the population literally. 

    If you play League of Legends you have rankings and ladders that divide the godlike teams from the casual players that join random made teams.  Can you imagine joining a random made team in League of Legends and then it matching you against one of the Professional World Championship teams?  Well this scenario happens in DAOC and unfortunately it looks like it will happen in CU too.

    In DAOC and CU there will be nothing separating the high skilled/equipped players from the low skilled/equipped players.  This is a recipe for disaster IMO.  DAOC had huge numbers of players early on but over the years most of the casual players left because they were destroyed by the elite hardcore players.  The only thing that gave casual players a chance to participate in rvr was joining a zerg or to play in a small Battleground zone.

    I really believe there needs to be a BG for lower level/skill casual players or zergs allowed in the frontiers.  Otherwise you will be left with a small hardcore population in CU like the one currently playing DAOC.
     

  • JamesGoblinJamesGoblin Member RarePosts: 1,242
    Ledrir said:
    Kyleran said:
    DAOC had Zergs but not like modern day trains and IMO a big reason was the very powerful crowd control which could keep you immobilized or totally paralyzed for up to a minute. Couple it with some TOA abilities and a single 8 man could beat 4 full groups. (Probably taking things a bit too far)

    They probably aren't going to repeat the same level of CC but it was a pretty good counter to the zerg

    The problem that never gets brought up is the power level of players who play alot.  These players will have better gear, more powerful abilities and will play so much that they are well oiled killing machines.  I have nothing against these hardcore players but their elite killing abilities will kill off the population literally. 

    If you play League of Legends you have rankings and ladders that divide the godlike teams from the casual players that join random made teams.  Can you imagine joining a random made team in League of Legends and then it matching you against one of the Professional World Championship teams?  Well this scenario happens in DAOC and unfortunately it looks like it will happen in CU too.

    In DAOC and CU there will be nothing separating the high skilled/equipped players from the low skilled/equipped players.  This is a recipe for disaster IMO.  DAOC had huge numbers of players early on but over the years most of the casual players left because they were destroyed by the elite hardcore players.  The only thing that gave casual players a chance to participate in rvr was joining a zerg or to play in a small Battleground zone.

    I really believe there needs to be a BG for lower level/skill casual players or zergs allowed in the frontiers.  Otherwise you will be left with a small hardcore population in CU like the one currently playing DAOC.
     

    I believe you are overestimating the role and influence of "leet" folks, DAoC population declined for many other reasons (age, WoW, PvPcentrism, mediocre PvE etc. - just to name some).

    Couple more things to consider (off the top of my head) - CU will have some battlegrounds, likely lots of zergs, strongly developed crafting, building & mining, CC will likely be toned down from DAoC level, "leet" teams might/will be bored into switching sides or migrating to find challenge (not to mention that you can have well organized groups on both sides) and "just in case" I expect CSE to actively balance the game against too strong specialists.

     W...aaagh?
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,818
    In AvA type games there will be large scale battles. Those large battles with large groups are a part of the attraction. They will be in CU.

    That being said Zerg cannot be the only way to play. I have not played in a group over 6 in over a year in ESO. 99% of my time is solo or duo. I do quite well in affecting the game. The thing is a new or very casual player will get ROCKED playing solo just because of lack of experience. The learning curve is pretty step.

    As long as CU does not force you "follow the crown" and "smush up on crown" like say GW2 and allows for small group and solo play it will be fine.
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