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This doesn't look good?

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  • BrenicsBrenics Member RarePosts: 1,939
    *tussles the OP's hair* 

    You'll get'em next time, Sport.
    LOL thanks, people like you are who keep bring me back to MMORPG!
    I'm not perfect but I'm always myself!

    Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event


    4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.

    http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/

    Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!

  • Vada_GVada_G Member UncommonPosts: 85
    I'm lost, what exactly does Brenics think this shows?

    I see approx 650K cash, 360K in physical assets, 1M in recievables (most likely from CIG as I don't think they've sold anything else to anyone), and roughly 1.2M owed (most likely a 1M bank charge and 200K in various vendor charges). 

    It shows me that someone can't read a balance sheet.

    I mean, yeah, I think CIG has some issues with SC's development (mostly on the project management, expectations side of things) but this isn't one of them.
  • jesteralwaysjesteralways Member RarePosts: 2,560
    MrSyn said:
    Funny how people think this game is ever going to have money troubles... even if the crowdfunding funds do dry up, im sure a lot of publishers and investors have been making them offers to try and get in on it.

    Recently it took Shenmue 3 only 2mil to to raise and show interest for Sony to back the development... this game has raised 90mil... you can bet those greedy big publishers and investors want a piece of this.
    Both roberts brothers implied it multiple times in ama and press interview that they have acquired multiple investors for SC. Recently in an interview with polygon erin said something along the while "while demonstrating squadron 42 to one of our investors..", long before that on multiple occasions chris roberts said something along the same line "i had to travel to attend investors meeting". These people just want this game to fail because they are jealous, they write up their crap in kickstarter but people don't blindly donate their money to these losers but when chris roberts ask 20 million people donate 90 million, it is eating these losers from inside, thus continuous doom and gloom trolling.

    Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,829
    edited November 2015
    Not for nothing.....
    But OP....
    When I read the following title:

    "This doesn't look good?"

    The statement actually reads as though you are making an argument opposite of what you are trying to say. You posted it as a question.....As if someone else said "It didn't look good" and you are questioning that statement.
    Post edited by GeezerGamer on
  • Vada_GVada_G Member UncommonPosts: 85
    I hope people stop funding this game and it has to go to actual outside investment. If it gets investment, that will be a beacon of hope as I know when I or my company make investments, we demand financials (much more than a simple balance sheet).

    Also, having outside investors will also hold CR's feet to the fire so to speak. I think with adequate management oversight, SC could be great. Don't expect the wunderbar product everyone is dreaming of to be the initial release though, because investors coming on would definately push this game to release early.


  • Panther2103Panther2103 Member EpicPosts: 5,573
    I don't feel like this game is going to be good and usually jump at the chance to point that out, but this is blatantly just trying to stir controversy, especially if it was from Derek Smarts feed. 
  • BrenicsBrenics Member RarePosts: 1,939
    MrSyn said:
    Funny how people think this game is ever going to have money troubles... even if the crowdfunding funds do dry up, im sure a lot of publishers and investors have been making them offers to try and get in on it.

    Recently it took Shenmue 3 only 2mil to to raise and show interest for Sony to back the development... this game has raised 90mil... you can bet those greedy big publishers and investors want a piece of this.
    Both roberts brothers implied it multiple times in ama and press interview that they have acquired multiple investors for SC. Recently in an interview with polygon erin said something along the while "while demonstrating squadron 42 to one of our investors..", long before that on multiple occasions chris roberts said something along the same line "i had to travel to attend investors meeting". These people just want this game to fail because they are jealous, they write up their crap in kickstarter but people don't blindly donate their money to these losers but when chris roberts ask 20 million people donate 90 million, it is eating these losers from inside, thus continuous doom and gloom trolling.
    That's an interesting conspiracy theory. I disagree of course and believe a lot of the people who are questioning the project it's because of Roberts never being able to finish a project without someone telling him NO stick to the original plan. I don't believe it has anything to do with being jealous. 
    I'm not perfect but I'm always myself!

    Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event


    4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.

    http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/

    Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!

  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    As long as they can keep on selling ships, they will probably be okay, its only when that particular well dries up that they may end up with a problem. The only question really is whether they have enough funding currently to complete the game development, they probably don't based on various conjectures made by other developers, even so, they are still only conjectures, the only way we'll know if they are correct or not, is if CIG either completes the game or they file a chapter 11 or something, until then, its pretty much guesswork in either direction.
  • BrenicsBrenics Member RarePosts: 1,939
    Phry said:
    As long as they can keep on selling ships, they will probably be okay, its only when that particular well dries up that they may end up with a problem. The only question really is whether they have enough funding currently to complete the game development, they probably don't based on various conjectures made by other developers, even so, they are still only conjectures, the only way we'll know if they are correct or not, is if CIG either completes the game or they file a chapter 11 or something, until then, its pretty much guesswork in either direction.
    It is over they just don't realize it yet. Wait for the UK Financials.  LOL and to @jesteralways you are a funny man who is too much into CR to be taken serious. 
    I'm not perfect but I'm always myself!

    Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event


    4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.

    http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/

    Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!

  • DaikuruDaikuru Member RarePosts: 797
    Do you really think they have no investors now after the huge kickstarter success? Kickstarter and selling ships and stuff ist just part of financing this game.
    Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

    - Albert Einstein


  • Vada_GVada_G Member UncommonPosts: 85
    I think the amount that they raised through crowdfunding could be a boon or detriment to finding outside investment. Without detailed financials, it can't really be determined which.

    Large crowdfunding can show major traction and interest, meaning a higher probability of success. However, the flip side is the fact that they've already gotten over 90M invested and the product hasn't been released, so how much more would it take? If an investor threw another 10-20M in, would it make a difference? If they needed more, I'd really want to know why. 

    I think that it'd be much better to land a publisher deal instead of investors. i.e. CIG made the product for 90M, but they need more $$ for marketing, customer support, regional distribution, etc. That's where a good publisher deal would come into play.
  • RealizerRealizer Member RarePosts: 724
     With publisher companies spending in the $300 million range on barely above average games these days, why is it so hard for people to grasp that $90 really isn't that much in the grand scheme of things? With how the current market is flowing $90 million is a drop in the bucket. This all just goes to show how so many people have no concept of how much money really changes hands in a day. The US is $20 trillion in debt with an average rise of $4 million per day, and you guys are complaining about CIG? Get a life, I say.
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 4,229
    Realizer said:
     With publisher companies spending in the $300 million range on barely above average games these days, why is it so hard for people to grasp that $90 really isn't that much in the grand scheme of things? With how the current market is flowing $90 million is a drop in the bucket. This all just goes to show how so many people have no concept of how much money really changes hands in a day. The US is $20 trillion in debt with an average rise of $4 million per day, and you guys are complaining about CIG? Get a life, I say.
    You were on a good groove there but then you horribly derailed yourself by talking about the us debt but I do see where you were trying to go with it
  • RealizerRealizer Member RarePosts: 724
    Kefo said:
    Realizer said:
     With publisher companies spending in the $300 million range on barely above average games these days, why is it so hard for people to grasp that $90 really isn't that much in the grand scheme of things? With how the current market is flowing $90 million is a drop in the bucket. This all just goes to show how so many people have no concept of how much money really changes hands in a day. The US is $20 trillion in debt with an average rise of $4 million per day, and you guys are complaining about CIG? Get a life, I say.
    You were on a good groove there but then you horribly derailed yourself by talking about the us debt but I do see where you were trying to go with it
    Sometimes the truth can put a sour taste in ones mouth, it's how it goes. 
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,974
    I am definitely not a shareholder or stock expert by any mild stretch but i do have a gut feeling about things that is very good.

    Something looks real fishy to me and  i cannot make any sense of it at all but maybe someone with soem expertise in this field can explain plausible reasons???


    What i see are three main shareholders ,Chris HIs brother and an Attorney,thta right there seems odd that an attorney is made a partner,however there is more.

    All three seem to either sell their shares or transfer them "not even sure that is legal or possible" and put all shares under the corporation name.What on earth is that all about?To me a dumbass with stock knowledge it "appears" to me like what they did is simply sell the shares to the business to profit themselves off of money entrusted to them,i definitely could be wrong so please enlighten me.

    I didn't read the rest of the fiels ,well i'm hungry and thinking of food  :P


    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,974

    MrSyn said:
    Funny how people think this game is ever going to have money troubles... even if the crowdfunding funds do dry up, im sure a lot of publishers and investors have been making them offers to try and get in on it.

    Recently it took Shenmue 3 only 2mil to to raise and show interest for Sony to back the development... this game has raised 90mil... you can bet those greedy big publishers and investors want a piece of this.
    Not without possibility however Chris is well known,you would think he could have got investors on board from day 1 and would definitely take an investment if he could get one right now as i also agree there would be at least a few people interested ,so then why is it not happening?

    I think at least to me seems obvious......accountability,i definitely 100% believe this guy is only mildly on the up n up,i definitely would not trust him with my money.I think there is a very big underlining reason why he has an attorney at law as one of the three owners of this business besides the fact he worked for Chris on his movie production career.

    I like the questions they asked Ortwin "attorney"  Q :Favorite game of all time A :Star Citizen lmao ,hes prolly never played a game in his life.

    Q:What part of SC do you like the most ...A: Everything ...roflmao
    Q:Favorite ship in SC ...A:I don't know i like them all,i'd have to test them...lmao.prolly doesn't even know a single ship in the game.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • RealizerRealizer Member RarePosts: 724
    Wizardry said:
    I am definitely not a shareholder or stock expert by any mild stretch but i do have a gut feeling about things that is very good.

    Something looks real fishy to me and  i cannot make any sense of it at all but maybe someone with soem expertise in this field can explain plausible reasons???


    What i see are three main shareholders ,Chris HIs brother and an Attorney,thta right there seems odd that an attorney is made a partner,however there is more.

    All three seem to either sell their shares or transfer them "not even sure that is legal or possible" and put all shares under the corporation name.What on earth is that all about?To me a dumbass with stock knowledge it "appears" to me like what they did is simply sell the shares to the business to profit themselves off of money entrusted to them,i definitely could be wrong so please enlighten me.

    I didn't read the rest of the fiels ,well i'm hungry and thinking of food  :P


     It's exactly how Google works, Google and many of it's sister companies are all owned under one parent company called Alphabet. Alphabet controls all the money, also called a holding company, and Google and the other companies employ all the people. It's become common place in the business world as it protects companies from certain liabilities. 
  • AethaerynAethaeryn Member RarePosts: 3,109
    Yeah balance sheets and finances can be meant to look many different ways.  Someone might own a few businesses. . run some at a loss and feed with the other.  It is mostly beyond me but I know it can be creative and usually has to do with minimizing taxes.

    The game will launch and we will judge it then. . or it won't and we will judge it then.  I am guessing it will and that it will be fun.  It will easily be worth what i put into it ($25 or $35 I think?  maybe even $50).

    Also, I have harped on how much I dislike the selling of ships so heavily before the game launches, but one thing that makes this game different from other Kickstarters that have failed is that they will actually have a proven revenue stream after the game launches.  Its not like it will launch or not with them being broke.  They can always scale back and keep selling ships or other items.

    I wouldn't be too worried about a balance sheet at this point.

    Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!

  • RealizerRealizer Member RarePosts: 724
     Also @Wizardry ;seems to me his being a lawyer doesn't have much to do with his position if you google Ortwin Freyermuth you find this, 
      Entertainment LawyerOrtwin Freyermuth is a German American entertainment lawyer and film producer. He is mostly noted for having been the CEO of film production company Capella Films and for producing the 1997 director's cut version of Wolfgang Petersen's Das Boot. 
  • jesteralwaysjesteralways Member RarePosts: 2,560
    edited November 2015
    Phry said:
    As long as they can keep on selling ships, they will probably be okay, its only when that particular well dries up that they may end up with a problem. The only question really is whether they have enough funding currently to complete the game development, they probably don't based on various conjectures made by other developers, even so, they are still only conjectures, the only way we'll know if they are correct or not, is if CIG either completes the game or they file a chapter 11 or something, until then, its pretty much guesswork in either direction.
    They have multiple investor groups. They are in no shortage of money. [mod edit]
    Post edited by Vaross on

    Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.

  • Vada_GVada_G Member UncommonPosts: 85
    Wizardry said:
    I am definitely not a shareholder or stock expert by any mild stretch but i do have a gut feeling about things that is very good.

    Something looks real fishy to me and  i cannot make any sense of it at all but maybe someone with soem expertise in this field can explain plausible reasons???


    What i see are three main shareholders ,Chris HIs brother and an Attorney,thta right there seems odd that an attorney is made a partner,however there is more.

    All three seem to either sell their shares or transfer them "not even sure that is legal or possible" and put all shares under the corporation name.What on earth is that all about?To me a dumbass with stock knowledge it "appears" to me like what they did is simply sell the shares to the business to profit themselves off of money entrusted to them,i definitely could be wrong so please enlighten me.

    I didn't read the rest of the fiels ,well i'm hungry and thinking of food  :P


    It's sometimes a matter of limiting risk. A parent company or individuals will start a business, giving those persons 100% shares of a company. Then the company can secure a loan and buy those shares back. This pulls the original investment back out and leaves the company (it's own entity) to run off the loan which allows the original investment (if there was one) to be put somewhere more productive or somewhere else with less risk. The original investment however could have just been the time and work involved in establishing the entity.

    This is only one scenario. There are many many different scenarios but this is the one most likely seen with startup entities which can establish enough revenue to secure funds from lenders and the founders wish to reduce their own risk (even if the founder is actually another company "entity"). One of the risks this reduces is if a subsidiary company (such as CIG Germany) were to have liabilities incurr, this liability would not transfer to the parent company (CIG or whomever), outside special circumstances. In other words, it's normal business practice when dealing with parents/subsidiaries.

    As for a lawyer, there's nothing odd there in this case. Ortwin has worked closely with the brothers, appears to be trusted by the brothers and he does bring a skillset to the team. From other records, it seems like he's pretty much a starting partner with alot of the CIG spinoffs and is probably the one handling the paperwork. Being a GP (General Partner) makes it much easier to efficiently handle these matters vs. having an outside lawyer do it all and spend lots of time and money chasing people down for signatures. He may also be a starting GP because it's one of his requirements to join in these ventures and bring his own networking and skillset to the team.

    @jesteralways - "They have multiple investor groups. They are in no shortage of money. It is only the jealous people who never made money with their shitty game are up and flaming against CR. Such is the way of low life humans. "

    I've only seen jealousy rear it's head when discussing this where other developers are involved (we won't mention names). A lot of the discussions I've seen are actually people who support the project but have legitimate concerns. A project with a constantly revised end date and is perceived to constantly be asking for more money is one I would certainly be concerned with (imagine a contractor doing work for you and they were to act this way). I say perceived as I believe that they plan on using ship concepts and new ships as a primary means of revenue and I would no longer consider those pledges or donations, but to be the 'actual' product they are selling at this point.

    As for whether they have cash flow issues, NONE of us know about this outside of people who actually work there. 
  • KayAndroidKayAndroid Member UncommonPosts: 59
    Man... I was feeling really good about Star Citizen until I read this thread...
    Now, I'm just worried.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 17,974
    Yes i understand that part about securing loans however this is not exactly the same thing.They have been entrusted with money to make the game,not to risk taking out loans with that money because they have absolutely no risk in doing so.

    I also understand corporations and how they are nice loopholes to rip people/government off.

    I still don't understand how you can sell shares to yourself,since Chris owns the company.

    If i ran a company and just decided to startup 1000 shares and sell them to the business,there is nothing to gain because it is my own money.Shares are suppose to be investors money,however in this case ALL of the investment is the gamer's money and they were never given any shares.

    I actually commented on this a few years ago,i said the ONLY way i would ever give money to a game is if it was a true investment,sell shares,i want  to be a shareholder in the business.In the case of a game being 100% fully funded by gamer's i would expect at least 50+% of the shares to be owned by gamer's.If the developer person say Chris for example was on the up and up,he would have no problem with that because after all,his investment is zero.



    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619
    So you have made it your hobby to troll this game every chance you get?  Maybe you should go play SWTOR instead?  Seriously, I think you have a problem here.
    I'm curious to know if it is just his frequency of posting on this topic or is the issue with his opinion being negative?  I see two others posting many times a day more than him in this topic but you dont seem to have an issue with them posting excessively.   They sometimes post trivial things and attack anyone who does not agree with them with vigor.  Is it ok for them to do the exact same thing as Brenics as long as they share your opinion of the game?
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    After examining the documents in great detail.  I found that the positive integer on the forward benchmark was directly affecting the obscure settings of the original country.  When multiplied by the factors of pi's reclusive shadow you can easily see that the OP is correct in his assumption.  I spent 4 hours writing an algorithm to come to such a conclusion then I asked myself.  Why do people use the word algorithm?  Does it make them feel smart?  Do they realize that it is just another word for code string?  Or code formula?  And why for the love of all goodness are they calling programs apps now?
    Are you onto something or just on something?
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