The Lack of Delivered Content

CrazKanuk · November 2015

Erinak1 said:

CrazKanuk said:

Broken.Arrow said:

Erillion said:

>>>> And why cant CIG adopt the "it will be done when its done" motto and quietly chug on with the development? Yea, its because if they dont provide any short term release date and constant chatter, their crowdfunding will take a direct hit.>>>>

Because it was a basic premise to keep the backers involved and informed in great detail. You will find this promise as early as the Kickstarter campaign in Oct/Nov 2012.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen/description

"We’re not interested in having yearly updates. Once live, we will have a team of people adding content on a weekly or bi-weekly basis. So we’ll always be adding data, stories and campaigns as well as reacting to the needs and actions of the players."

"Our goal is for the game’s website to be live from day one, constantly giving information about what’s happening in the galaxy even before the game is live, sharing interesting insights into the development process and canvassing the early backers for their opinions. Roberts Space Industries should be the first stop into the Star Citizen universe. When we say we want to involve the community, we really mean it!"

They are basically doing what they promised to do. You do not like that ... we get it. I - personally - like it.

Have fun

Wow!
I did not know that they want go on "canvassing" sprees rather than...you know, make the damn game.

This is hilarious, that they want to spend resources on all this unwanted fluff ventures rather than pool it into the actual game. Involved and informed right to the point they donate, and then *poof*, it disappears into the SC development pit of closed books.
You sir have provided my point of "maintaining constant chatter or crowdfunding takes a hit" with more weight. I thank you for that!

And still...they write sagas of potential bullshit but give their "investors" (according to Erillion) no word on how the money is being spent. Hmm...so easy to shut up all the naysayers for good by just showing the books in good faith, but they...just dont.

Maybe you should ask them to involve the community beyond their wallets eh, havefun? (just kidding, he knows)

Why do you need to know how their money is spent? You don't have to be an accountant to know where their money is going. They've got 250+ employees. Salaries plus labour burden likely has them somewhere in the arena of $2.5-3 million per month. Prior to all the hoopla their monthly revenue was down to just over $900,000 in June & July. In fact, only in October did their revenues get above the $2.5 million mark. So it's not all yacht trips and penthouse parties. Right now it's "get it to market before we run out of money". I don't know what more transparency you need. Also, McDonald's doesn't crack open their books for you because you bought a cheeseburger. RSI has no additional obligation, they just need to deliver the cheeseburger.

I wonder if they need any artists, I want to get like $10k a month too! You guys are all arguing over weird side-views. I have no interest or stake in this game but logic tells me that if they do have 250 employees, I serious doubt they are all sitting around all day performing the wizard of oz. All I'll say is that if you don't want to end up paying for an unknown entity, don't pay for an unknown entity. If you want a certainty, pay for a game that has already been made. All of this arguing over semantics is ridiculous, on both sides.

Argh!!! Nooooo!!!!! Logic! My only weakness!!

You wouldn't be making 10k a month, I actually factored in a 50% labour burden (which is actually pretty reasonable if you know anything about burden). So you'd really only be making like around $6500 a month pre-tax.

Erillion · November 2015

@Erinak1

We backers wanted a new, ground breaking space sim ever since Freelancer. We put our money where our mouth is and supported the Star Citizen crowdfunding project (and most people I know also supported Elite:Dangerous too). We were able and willing to pay for an unknown entity.

There is a lot of animosity towards this project from people that have no stake whatsoever in it, have not backed the project and often do not even like space sims. As you said:
"....that if you don't want to end up paying for an unknown entity, don't pay for an unknown entity...."
To me it often seems they just enjoy watching something crash and burn ... to fuel their flames for flamewars.

There are a few that ARE backers and no longer agree with the projects goals. They COULD just get a refund, but do not want to ... which for me personally is hard to understand.

And to answer your question ... yes, they do need artists. 21 open jobs for artists at the moment
https://cloudimperiumgames.com/jobs

Have fun

mayito7777 · November 2015

This game is garbage, this game is trash, yadda yadda blah bla blah, by the way I am not trashing the game, really OP?

holdenhamlet · November 2015

By the time this game is actually made and released, we will all be riding around in real spaceships that are cooler then the ones they're selling.

Talonsin · November 2015

Erillion said:

<<<<Stuff>>>>

Some of us original backers want the game we were promised in the time frame promised. We are now a year past the original projected release date given to us by Chris Roberts himself and yet here we are with nothing but a tech demo to show for it. We were told in 2013 that stretch goals would NOT delay the release and then suddenly in 2015 we are told the game has grown due to stretch goals.

Now over the last year we hear over and over again about inappropriate spending and mismanagement of the company. Anyone who backed this project and did not put blinders on and who has done some research into this issue would have some concerns.

Erillion · November 2015

holdenhamlet said:

By the time this game is actually made and released, we will all be riding around in real spaceships that are cooler then the ones they're selling.

I would like such space ships in 2017 ... thank you very much.

And with Lockheed Skunkworks working on the energy source .... Who knows ...

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/products/compact-fusion.html

Have fun

Erillion · November 2015

Talonsin said:

Erillion said:

<<<<Stuff>>>>

Some of us original backers want the game we were promised in the time frame promised. We are now a year past the original projected release date given to us by Chris Roberts himself and yet here we are with nothing but a tech demo to show for it. We were told in 2013 that stretch goals would NOT delay the release and then suddenly in 2015 we are told the game has grown due to stretch goals.

Now over the last year we hear over and over again about inappropriate spending and mismanagement of the company. Anyone who backed this project and did not put blinders on and who has done some research into this issue would have some concerns.

Get a refund.

Get lo..!

Have fun

Phaserlight · November 2015

Asm0deus said:

Phaserlight said:

....snip...
Hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.

Look, I'm not trying to get into a legal debate with you. I am not a lawyer. However, I know there is a precedent of people being sued over virtual goods. Virtual goods are still property. I recommend checking it out.

Not to burst your bubble but pretty much every mmo you play you do so with the understanding that you "own" nothing. The client doesn't belong to you nor any in game items or the account itself etc.

SC isn't Second Life where you can create your own content and sell it for cash. SC has always said your not buying ships but pledging...sad thing is like most mmo I am sure it will be possible to be banned and lose all in game items...even if it cost you 1k for that one ship...lol

That said even good luck proving you "own" those virtual goods.

Not really my point. I think it's fair to say that you wouldn't sue someone for having your $2500 Swarovski crystal queen captured in a game of chess.

If on the other hand a company is promising to do something in exchange for monetary support, I call that a contract. As that other dude said, "the nature of the beast".

CIG/RSI's footprint is public enough that I don't think there is "no substance" behind requesting similar accounting procedures. I'm approaching this merely from the perspective of due diligence.

That was how I got into this argument in the first place, if you go back over this thread's history.

edit:

What upsets me about this is the way @SlothnChunk is painting 'seeing the books' as an outlandish request:

"Try this to test it out: walk into a neighborhood privately owned store, spend $50, and then demand to see 'the books' otherwise you won't leave. Let's see if 1) the owner agrees as that's the way it is because you 'invested' in the store.... or 2) You leave in handcuffs and get a ride to the police station with sirens and pretty flashing lights."

This is a strawman argument, and the sad thing is, if I didn't have an education I might be inclined to believe it. However, it's not an outlandish thing to ask for at all. Many companies do this, and you don't even have to be a patron. You don't even have to go in person:

Here is Facebook's annual report.

Here is Apple's.

Here is Frontier's (the people who made Elite).

Don't let people like @SlothnChunk intimidate you. Ask for the truth.

scorpex-x · November 2015

Talonsin said:

Erillion said:

<<<<Stuff>>>>

Some of us original backers want the game we were promised in the time frame promised. We are now a year past the original projected release date given to us by Chris Roberts himself and yet here we are with nothing but a tech demo to show for it. We were told in 2013 that stretch goals would NOT delay the release and then suddenly in 2015 we are told the game has grown due to stretch goals.

Now over the last year we hear over and over again about inappropriate spending and mismanagement of the company. Anyone who backed this project and did not put blinders on and who has done some research into this issue would have some concerns.

I wanted to play this, I was against kickstarter because it basically boils down to a donation, so I didn't pay it. Just because you donate money, that gives you no right to make demands.

I nearly did put money into it after the drama a few months back, but again I decided to just wait and give them my money when it is done.

Things in life change, delays happen. If you aren't happy all you need to do is get a refund and wait till final release or just forget about it. They are not going to do what you ask and most of the people who gave money would rather get a better product than have them rush out a far inferior game.

I find it hilarious honestly that one of the major complaints about games is publishers forcing games out before they are ready, and you're asking them to do that for no reason. Just so you have a toy to play with faster?

You are the vast minority, there is no major outcry at having the game out earlier with far less features.

So as someone else said just get a refund and go play something else.

udon · November 2015

Erinak1 said:

CrazKanuk said:

Broken.Arrow said:

Erillion said:

>>>> And why cant CIG adopt the "it will be done when its done" motto and quietly chug on with the development? Yea, its because if they dont provide any short term release date and constant chatter, their crowdfunding will take a direct hit.>>>>

Because it was a basic premise to keep the backers involved and informed in great detail. You will find this promise as early as the Kickstarter campaign in Oct/Nov 2012.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen/description

"We’re not interested in having yearly updates. Once live, we will have a team of people adding content on a weekly or bi-weekly basis. So we’ll always be adding data, stories and campaigns as well as reacting to the needs and actions of the players."

"Our goal is for the game’s website to be live from day one, constantly giving information about what’s happening in the galaxy even before the game is live, sharing interesting insights into the development process and canvassing the early backers for their opinions. Roberts Space Industries should be the first stop into the Star Citizen universe. When we say we want to involve the community, we really mean it!"

They are basically doing what they promised to do. You do not like that ... we get it. I - personally - like it.

Have fun

Wow!
I did not know that they want go on "canvassing" sprees rather than...you know, make the damn game.

This is hilarious, that they want to spend resources on all this unwanted fluff ventures rather than pool it into the actual game. Involved and informed right to the point they donate, and then *poof*, it disappears into the SC development pit of closed books.
You sir have provided my point of "maintaining constant chatter or crowdfunding takes a hit" with more weight. I thank you for that!

And still...they write sagas of potential bullshit but give their "investors" (according to Erillion) no word on how the money is being spent. Hmm...so easy to shut up all the naysayers for good by just showing the books in good faith, but they...just dont.

Maybe you should ask them to involve the community beyond their wallets eh, havefun? (just kidding, he knows)

Why do you need to know how their money is spent? You don't have to be an accountant to know where their money is going. They've got 250+ employees. Salaries plus labour burden likely has them somewhere in the arena of $2.5-3 million per month. Prior to all the hoopla their monthly revenue was down to just over $900,000 in June & July. In fact, only in October did their revenues get above the $2.5 million mark. So it's not all yacht trips and penthouse parties. Right now it's "get it to market before we run out of money". I don't know what more transparency you need. Also, McDonald's doesn't crack open their books for you because you bought a cheeseburger. RSI has no additional obligation, they just need to deliver the cheeseburger.

I wonder if they need any artists, I want to get like $10k a month too! You guys are all arguing over weird side-views. I have no interest or stake in this game but logic tells me that if they do have 250 employees, I serious doubt they are all sitting around all day performing the wizard of oz. All I'll say is that if you don't want to end up paying for an unknown entity, don't pay for an unknown entity. If you want a certainty, pay for a game that has already been made. All of this arguing over semantics is ridiculous, on both sides.

Anyone with any experience with software development on a large scales knows this project is burning cash faster than it's earning it at this point. The only question is can they get this game to a launch state before they run out? Selling "concept" ships which where just a drawing with some specs without doing modeling saved them a lot of money but sooner or later they will need to spend the money to create these items they already sold. Do they have enough money left to both create a playable game and create all these concept ships at launch? If they don't they have serious issues because if they launch the game without them the backlash is going to be epic. If they skip on features to save the budget to complete the ships than what gets dropped from the final product?

Either you believe they have the money to complete this project as promised or your don't. One thing is certain. They can't keep going the way they are forever. Sooner or later the rate of spending cash will overcome the rate of earning cash plus any they have saved and than they won't be able to make payrolls. At that point I guess they could always sell the game to EA for pennies on the dollar?

pingo · November 2015

Broken.Arrow said:
For someone so eager to shout from his high horse, you severely lack any reading skills. Did you even read my post before rambling on about supposed "getting rich schemes"?

I used the words "keep the crowdfunding afloat". Which simply implies to keep the company alive, since right now they are going by solely on donations/pledges/backing/whatever you call it, and not on some big wig footing the costs (at least as far as they have disclosed). Which means paying out the salaries of all their employees, keeping their offices up and running, licensing fees if any and everything else in between. Do you disagree with that?

But obviously what went over your head was the fact that, for all the dumping CR does on publishers, he is faring worse than any Suit on the decisions making end. To push the goal posts back and back while constantly dropping release dates and constantly failing to uphold them...and worse yet, going well and beyond the boundaries of propriety by ninja editing their TOS to suit they delays is beyond unscrupulous.
And any software house worth its salt wouldnt plan to create " Project A" and when the idea generates massive windfall, fail to create " Project A" in its stipulated time period even with all the resources at its disposal, but instead go buck crazy and start Projects B, C, D, E, F without even completing "Project A" which they had been originally financed for. Understand?

You are talking like you know everything about the inner workings of CIG and advocate their foolish decisions from supposed life experience, but you dont know jack shit if you start pulling in the strawman conspiracies theories angle while failing to refute the fact that they Have been failing horribly on the decision making aspect. And you can tout all of your half baked knowledge of the industry all you want, but many of what you consider the "de-facto" is the reason why companies fold.

And because this isnt a regular game, with a normal publisher is why CR can pull such gimmicks. He is treating the crowdfunding as an infinite stream without anyone having to tell him to get his gear in check or release the game as it is. And that is where the perpetual-hype comes in, why should he release a game when he can keep throwing a bone to his investors and keep developing his dream game with all the time in the world (not really though, since reality is different from the world inside CR's head). Not like Digital Anvil tanked because he doesnt know the value of time, right? And why cant CIG adopt the "it will be done when its done" motto and quietly chug on with the development? Yea, its because if they dont provide any short term release date and constant chatter, their crowdfunding will take a direct hit. Can you understand that simple concept?
Not like bonafide gaming companies dont pull similar stunts with shady monetising techniques, but for someone like CR who preaches against the big bad suits to stoop to same levels, is simply cruising for a bruising.

But before you reply, take your blinders off and keep your arrogance behind. I dont have any dog in this race, so relax and reply without any unwarranted mouth frothing. If you are finding it difficult to read through my entire post and grasp the meaning, I can create a TL;DR version especially for you.

Anyone else notice, that there is not a single piece of evidence besides slippery slope fallacies? You need a course in Causation and correlation. You don't have a single shred of information to back up your arguments, and your leading conclusions are based on what has happened to somewhere, sometime at some point. None of which has any significant relevance to what we're talking about here. You haven't simply lost the plot, you don't know it.

Come back when you have just a modicum of actual proof instead of going off the deep end. You've really lost it.

Vrika · November 2015

Gdemami said:

laserit said:

Question:

So... are the funds raised by Kickstarter's / Crowdfunding taxed? are they considered profit? is it tax free moola?
Fundraised money are gifts, which aren't considered as taxable income.

CIG must charge value added taxes and sales taxes in their shop:

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14433-VAT-Change-Announcement

In no case must you pay VAT for gifts your send or receive. There's a different tax for when you get gifts.

Kefo · November 2015

pingo said:

Broken.Arrow said:
For someone so eager to shout from his high horse, you severely lack any reading skills. Did you even read my post before rambling on about supposed "getting rich schemes"?

I used the words "keep the crowdfunding afloat". Which simply implies to keep the company alive, since right now they are going by solely on donations/pledges/backing/whatever you call it, and not on some big wig footing the costs (at least as far as they have disclosed). Which means paying out the salaries of all their employees, keeping their offices up and running, licensing fees if any and everything else in between. Do you disagree with that?

But obviously what went over your head was the fact that, for all the dumping CR does on publishers, he is faring worse than any Suit on the decisions making end. To push the goal posts back and back while constantly dropping release dates and constantly failing to uphold them...and worse yet, going well and beyond the boundaries of propriety by ninja editing their TOS to suit they delays is beyond unscrupulous.
And any software house worth its salt wouldnt plan to create " Project A" and when the idea generates massive windfall, fail to create " Project A" in its stipulated time period even with all the resources at its disposal, but instead go buck crazy and start Projects B, C, D, E, F without even completing "Project A" which they had been originally financed for. Understand?

You are talking like you know everything about the inner workings of CIG and advocate their foolish decisions from supposed life experience, but you dont know jack shit if you start pulling in the strawman conspiracies theories angle while failing to refute the fact that they Have been failing horribly on the decision making aspect. And you can tout all of your half baked knowledge of the industry all you want, but many of what you consider the "de-facto" is the reason why companies fold.

And because this isnt a regular game, with a normal publisher is why CR can pull such gimmicks. He is treating the crowdfunding as an infinite stream without anyone having to tell him to get his gear in check or release the game as it is. And that is where the perpetual-hype comes in, why should he release a game when he can keep throwing a bone to his investors and keep developing his dream game with all the time in the world (not really though, since reality is different from the world inside CR's head). Not like Digital Anvil tanked because he doesnt know the value of time, right? And why cant CIG adopt the "it will be done when its done" motto and quietly chug on with the development? Yea, its because if they dont provide any short term release date and constant chatter, their crowdfunding will take a direct hit. Can you understand that simple concept?
Not like bonafide gaming companies dont pull similar stunts with shady monetising techniques, but for someone like CR who preaches against the big bad suits to stoop to same levels, is simply cruising for a bruising.

But before you reply, take your blinders off and keep your arrogance behind. I dont have any dog in this race, so relax and reply without any unwarranted mouth frothing. If you are finding it difficult to read through my entire post and grasp the meaning, I can create a TL;DR version especially for you.

Anyone else notice, that there is not a single piece of evidence besides slippery slope fallacies? You need a course in Causation and correlation. You don't have a single shred of information to back up your arguments, and your leading conclusions are based on what has happened to somewhere, sometime at some point. None of which has any significant relevance to what we're talking about here. You haven't simply lost the plot, you don't know it.

Come back when you have just a modicum of actual proof instead of going off the deep end. You've really lost it.

Did you read his post or did you just decide to post something blindly?

There plently of of evidence out there on what Broken.Arrow posted but you instead choose to ignore it and attack the poster without refuting anything.

Maybe be come back when you've checked your arrogance at the door and can have an actual conversation

Erillion · November 2015

What you call "evidence" is only a collection of rumours, mostly originating from the same dubious sources. No Smoking Gun for the last 3 years. Only rumour recycling.

Have fun

Broken.Arrow · November 2015

Erillion said:

Broken.Arrow said:

This is hilarious, that they want to spend resources on all this unwanted fluff ventures rather than pool it into the actual game.
It is neither unwanted nor is development money being spent on all the fluff shows and video blogs.

The subscribers - a subset of the backers - are paying for that with their extra monthly donations. Its only mentioned EVERY SINGLE BLOODY TIME at the beginning and end of these shows e.g.

http://imperialnews.network/2015/11/10-chairman-episode-69/

".....Our subscribers are the subset of our community that contribute money every month to allow us to do a higher degree of community content, and it’s one of the things, I think that set Star Citizen apart from other Crowd funded games, and generally games in development. Because we have a huge amount of interaction with everybody in the community. It’s amazing to have all of you support us in building this game, and we like to share the development with you guys so you can sort of see us building Star Citizen and building Squadron 42 as we go along, and without the subscribers contributing the money, we wouldn’t have the funds to have all the sort of additional community staff and video staff and be able to do the multiple video shows every week and, you know, the many posts we do every week on our website, so we have more posts than days in the week, I think we’re up to three or four video shows a week, which is pretty crazy, but it’s all really down to subscribers, so thank you very much. It’s a lot of work to do all this content, but I think sharing the journey of making the game is something that for the team is really fun..... "

The other backers and the - interested - public are benefitting from these subscriber contributions that make it possible to create this extra content.

Have fun

You seriously cant be That daft to see that, regardless of whether its "backers" or "subscribers" or a "subset of subscribers" who are funding the costs of these video rants, money wasted is money wasted.

"Wasted" I say, but not really from CIG's perspective. Because all these verbal teasers and video tidbits are what keeps the hype train going, thereby creating a positive effect (with minimal functional content delivery) on crowdfunding numbers for the entire shindig. On the long term even this "extra" money would have far better returns if it was invested in the game rather than on this excessive and unwarranted advertisement. They have already made more than 90 million, is that not enough to put out a functional S42 and let the folks fund them furthermore with actual tangible box sales?

Again, thank you very much for vindicating my point on constant chatter and wasted resources.
By the way, it doesnt matter if CR now starts another new venture for the "subset of the subset of the whelps of the minions of the backers"...where they allow for the "sub-subscribing" for a real life documentary of CR while he is busy making advertisement videos...money wasted on fluff rather than the Actual Game IS money wasted on unwanted crap, especially when CIG is long overdue on providing any form of a full fledged game.
A playable game is what the "other backers and the - interested - public" will Actually benefit from. These videos are only what CIG benefit from (meaning it creates positive spin and generates more backer $$$ for them only).

Dont play with words. Because if you want to have a battle of semantics, then feel free to chase your own tail elsewhere in your own free time. Now that the point has gotten a little too sticky for your liking, I know that you would love to derail the topic to more comfortable pastures. But dont, ok?

Gave Eun

Broken.Arrow · November 2015

CrazKanuk said:

Why do you need to know how their money is spent? You don't have to be an accountant to know where their money is going. They've got 250+ employees. Salaries plus labour burden likely has them somewhere in the arena of $2.5-3 million per month. Prior to all the hoopla their monthly revenue was down to just over $900,000 in June & July. In fact, only in October did their revenues get above the $2.5 million mark. So it's not all yacht trips and penthouse parties. Right now it's "get it to market before we run out of money". I don't know what more transparency you need. Also, McDonald's doesn't crack open their books for you because you bought a cheeseburger. RSI has no additional obligation, they just need to deliver the cheeseburger.

Why do you need to know why I want to know how the money is spent? See how that works?
I dont need to explain to someone like you the meaning of the terms good faith and propriety especially when it's concerning a people funded donation project, you go do yourself a favour and google those words.

Also, if I go to McD and order a cheeseburger, I become a customer. I dont become a stakeholder or a publisher or an "investor" (according to Erillion) or a backer. And if I paid for a cheeseburger, McD Should provide me with a cheeseburger or I can pull them to courts, even if...say....they are a year late on providing me that burger which I paid for.
Dont bring in bullshit analogies because whats happening with CIG and SC here is unprecedented and the consequences of their actions will reverberate throughout the entire game development spectrum as well as the crowdfunding front. This aint no burger joke genius.

Kefo · November 2015

Erillion said:

What you call "evidence" is only a collection of rumours, mostly originating from the same dubious sources. No Smoking Gun for the last 3 years. Only rumour recycling.

Have fun

Fairly easy to see they have missed release dates, pushed back the goalposts and you can check the internet archive for when they edited their TOS. I'd say that is a fairly large smoking gun but feel free to keep playing spin doctor.

Broken.Arrow · November 2015

pingo said:

Anyone else notice, that there is not a single piece of evidence besides slippery slope fallacies? You need a course in Causation and correlation. You don't have a single shred of information to back up your arguments, and your leading conclusions are based on what has happened to somewhere, sometime at some point. None of which has any significant relevance to what we're talking about here. You haven't simply lost the plot, you don't know it.

Come back when you have just a modicum of actual proof instead of going off the deep end. You've really lost it.

What....the hell? Are you even replying to my post or to something imaginary inside your head? Did you even read what I wrote??

Image: http://static2.gamespot.com/uploads/scale_super/1544/15443861/2787306-1438681995-bafta.JPG

Does that answer your rhetorical question about a single piece of evidence ? No? How about another piece of evidence:

https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/271173/some-thoughts-on-concerns

" we somehow now aren’t doing the FPS module I will say that we are talking about a delay of weeks and not months/years/decades. " : posted July 8.

Another?

http://www.pcgamer.com/star-citizen-fps-module-is-weeks-away-says-chris-roberts/

"When I made the [Letter from the Chairman] update -- when we showed it at PAX East, we said we hoped it was going to be out sometime in April, but 'don't hold me to that' was what I actually said," Roberts said.
...
"In reality, we're probably weeks off," he continued. "We're shooting to have FPS on the PTU round-about Gamescom or slightly after Gamescom. We're really talking about people getting to play FPS in a matter of 3, 4, maybe 5 weeks." : Posted July 19.

Do you want more?

First of all, you need an elementary course in opening your eyes and reading what it written, before you go spouting such high and mighty nonsense. If after reading, you are having issues to countering the veracity of my statements, then do yourself a favour and dont reply to self-concocted imaginary boogeyman posts and make a complete fool of yourself please.
I honestly dont even know if I reply to an unsteady person, because your replies thus far have been anything but rational. Read my posts and if you want to counter my points, do it without so much dramatic bullshittery.

Herase · November 2015

Kefo said:

Erillion said:

What you call "evidence" is only a collection of rumours, mostly originating from the same dubious sources. No Smoking Gun for the last 3 years. Only rumour recycling.

Have fun

Fairly easy to see they have missed release dates, pushed back the goalposts and you can check the internet archive for when they edited their TOS. I'd say that is a fairly large smoking gun but feel free to keep playing spin doctor.

So this is what's holding up all these arguments? People saw pushed back release dates and came to all these conclusions? Scam, mismanagement, games doomed, financial problems, etc? This is a joke right? This is no more than silly announcements that shouldn't be made, but thats about it.

Actually shocked, thought there would be more than just pushed back dates.

I would say it's more like a annoying leaking water pistol than a smoking gun tbh.

/shrug

CrazKanuk · November 2015

Broken.Arrow said:

CrazKanuk said:

Why do you need to know how their money is spent? You don't have to be an accountant to know where their money is going. They've got 250+ employees. Salaries plus labour burden likely has them somewhere in the arena of $2.5-3 million per month. Prior to all the hoopla their monthly revenue was down to just over $900,000 in June & July. In fact, only in October did their revenues get above the $2.5 million mark. So it's not all yacht trips and penthouse parties. Right now it's "get it to market before we run out of money". I don't know what more transparency you need. Also, McDonald's doesn't crack open their books for you because you bought a cheeseburger. RSI has no additional obligation, they just need to deliver the cheeseburger.

Why do you need to know why I want to know how the money is spent? See how that works?
I dont need to explain to someone like you the meaning of the terms good faith and propriety especially when it's concerning a people funded donation project, you go do yourself a favour and google those words.

Also, if I go to McD and order a cheeseburger, I become a customer. I dont become a stakeholder or a publisher or an "investor" (according to Erillion) or a backer. And if I paid for a cheeseburger, McD Should provide me with a cheeseburger or I can pull them to courts, even if...say....they are a year late on providing me that burger which I paid for.
Dont bring in bullshit analogies because whats happening with CIG and SC here is unprecedented and the consequences of their actions will reverberate throughout the entire game development spectrum as well as the crowdfunding front. This aint no burger joke genius.

No, there's no explanation needed. If you'd like to look foolish on the Internet, making requests that you simply aren't entitled to, then you can do that all day long. There are many thousands of places where I'm sure you can.

Secondly, you are not an investor in RSI or Star Citizen. You're a stakeholder in the same way that I'm a stakeholder in The Division. So go get a refund, lol.

You're right, I'm a firm believer that SC will set a precedent for highly-funded crowdfunding projects. However, people making asinine demands of a company which, you've admitted, will have an impact of future projects, to make demands on a company that where you'd NEVER make similar demands on another, and then try to sell it like they owe this to the "people" is hilarious!! It makes absolutely no sense. Yes, creating additional work, mounds of paperwork, and interruptions for the team will DEFINITELY not introduce any sort of additional risk to what many have already stated as being a risky project. Fuck, I really hope nobody ever lets you run a company. Nothing like a CEO hovering over the shoulders of all their finance people, duplicating their efforts.

I don't know if you've backed the project or not. However, if you have, you are entitled to sweet fuck all. You'll get your digital ship when the game comes out and that's the extent of it. You have absolutely no stake beyond some pixels. If you haven't backed it, then why the fuck do you care? If it's for "the future" then why spend your time calling people to arms who will ultimately contribute to a negative impact?

Good job ruining the future of gaming.

tawess · November 2015

Kefo said:

Erillion said:

What you call "evidence" is only a collection of rumours, mostly originating from the same dubious sources. No Smoking Gun for the last 3 years. Only rumour recycling.

Have fun

Fairly easy to see they have missed release dates, pushed back the goalposts and you can check the internet archive for when they edited their TOS. I'd say that is a fairly large smoking gun but feel free to keep playing spin doctor.

Then again... Speaking of the nature of the beast.... Often software development either A: Push past dealines (some A LOT) or B: Are forced to release incomplete projects and then patch them up to working condition... 8/10 A is to prefer over B.

But.... Does any of it actually matter... Until someone manages to actually take them to court over their non-status.... People who bought ships are nothing more than angry customers... And seeing how they now give refunds... Very much powerless angry customers.

Have they not delivered on content... Sure. Noone is really arguing this. But otoh noone would really be contant with a 500k game... nor really a 2M game... So what to do.

The site pledgers have after all always been at the mercy of the whim of Chris Roberts, only really the KS people have anything to even try to say about deadlines and such. Most of those would be livid of they pushed out a 500K game and said.. Tadaa.. Now eat your crow.

Maybe you would be happy.. But that is not the same as everybody being it... And a smart developer look at it with a utilitarian view... How to make the biggest mass happy.

Erillion · November 2015

With refund level being at 0.2 % of backers, the developers are trying to make the other 99.8 % happy.

Thats total refunds after three years. And VOLUNTARY refunds, because after two weeks they have to give back nothing (although they do).

Have fun

Erillion · November 2015

Kefo said:

Fairly easy to see they have missed release dates, pushed back the goalposts and you can check the internet archive for when they edited their TOS. I'd say that is a fairly large smoking gun but feel free to keep playing spin doctor.

Let me remind you that any backer has agreed to the following (in ALL versions of the TOS)

".....However, you acknowledge and agree that delivery as of such date is not a firm promise and may be extended by RSI since unforeseen events may extend the development and/or production time. ...."

So - if you are a backer - you AGREED to the possibility of delays.

I personally am fine with that. I rather have a good, completed game rather than a half assed incomplete desaster like Batman.

If YOU have a problem with what you agreed to .... GET A REFUND and go play something else.

Have fun

Brenics · November 2015

Erillion said:

>>>> And why cant CIG adopt the "it will be done when its done" motto and quietly chug on with the development? Yea, its because if they dont provide any short term release date and constant chatter, their crowdfunding will take a direct hit.>>>>

Because it was a basic premise to keep the backers involved and informed in great detail. You will find this promise as early as the Kickstarter campaign in Oct/Nov 2012.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/cig/star-citizen/description

"We’re not interested in having yearly updates. Once live, we will have a team of people adding content on a weekly or bi-weekly basis. So we’ll always be adding data, stories and campaigns as well as reacting to the needs and actions of the players."

"Our goal is for the game’s website to be live from day one, constantly giving information about what’s happening in the galaxy even before the game is live, sharing interesting insights into the development process and canvassing the early backers for their opinions. Roberts Space Industries should be the first stop into the Star Citizen universe. When we say we want to involve the community, we really mean it!"

They are basically doing what they promised to do. You do not like that ... we get it. I - personally - like it.

Have fun

Now this response is funny, first you will say it's fine with taking the first TOS down and rewriting it yet you paste stuff from site you agree with or goes with what you are attempting to say. Isn't this hypocritical?

Erillion · November 2015

Broken.Arrow said:

*** stuff ***

Like @Kefo before you:

Let me remind you that any backer has agreed to the following (in ALL versions of the TOS)

".....However, you acknowledge and agree that delivery as of such date is not a firm promise and may be extended by RSI since unforeseen events may extend the development and/or production time. ...."

So - if you are a backer - you AGREED to the possibility of delays.

I personally am fine with that. I rather have a good, completed game rather than a half assed incomplete desaster like Batman.

If YOU have a problem with what you agreed to .... GET A REFUND and go play something else.

Have fun

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