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Aging and permadeath are not selling points

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  • hfztthfztt Member RarePosts: 1,319
    I think it is an interesting idea. That said I have to agree that it probably wont work as intended. Unless the game really grabs me, and keeps on grabbing me, how will they handle when I go afk for 1½ year, like I have done with EVE earlier. Then I wont be returning the the character I orginally was playing for sure. I am teh type that has a hard time returning to something like WoW if they reset my skills while I was gone, much less having to play a completely new char.

    Player disconnect is a real concern.
  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,055
    Sounds like a great system to designate the game as only for one or maybe two sub-sets of gamers. And if that is all you need for your game that sounds perfect. 


    If that is not enough... It sounds like a REALLY bad idea. Because it will scare people away before they even get the game. 

    Tawess gaming

    Tawess soapbox

    This have been a good conversation

  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 6,081
    It's not hard to dislike something you know nothing about. I'm willing to bet 1/2 of the people claiming to dislike CoE because of this mechanic have no clue of the context it will have in the game. Once you understand what CoE is, how the game as a whole unfolds with EVERY game mechanic along with how the story evolves, than you might understand the need for such mechanics. This will be a ROLE playing game, which isn't something we've seen in a long time. This isn't just some MMO game. This is a player driven story. Everyone will have a dynamic adventure.

  • ThomasBPGThomasBPG Member UncommonPosts: 86
    I really like the game concept so far. The idea of perma death with a soul that lives on is pretty cool. 
  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros Member EpicPosts: 2,924
    tawess said:
    Sounds like a great system to designate the game as only for one or maybe two sub-sets of gamers. And if that is all you need for your game that sounds perfect. 


    If that is not enough... It sounds like a REALLY bad idea. Because it will scare people away before they even get the game. 
    Hopefully, it does exactly that; scare people away who don't like the idea of an evolving game world where no character is immortal.
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member EpicPosts: 8,409
    Pretty much depends on how good the game is in general.  If it's a good game then those extras won't matter much one way or the other.  It's like frosting on a cake.  If the cake is great the icing can make it better.  If the cake is bad then no amount or type of icing will make it any better.  Sounds like they're thinking of this as being the cake itself when most people will see it as frosting, imo.  Great for role-play but that's one part of the ingredients.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member EpicPosts: 8,409
    How about if I die and I don't want to come back for awhile.  I'd like to be a ghost and do ghost stuff before I reincarnate.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • ArchlyteArchlyte Member RarePosts: 1,405
    If you have perma death getting to high levels could be something worth a shit versus the inevitable destination of every player. I'm not saying I wouldn't be pissed when I died. But if I saw someone who had made it to level 50 I would be like, "hacker." lol. No but you could stretch your content a bit of you had perma death as long as you had one hell of a game for level 1 :)
    MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 32,035
    edited November 2015
    danwest58 said:
    I agree with the OP having PermaDeath in an MMO is a point to say the hell away from this MMO.  Have developers not learned anything?  These ideas do not turn out well but for maybe 5000 people and that is not enough to run a game on ever.  
    Doesnt Ark Survival have permadeath servers? 2M sold I heard

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  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    Archlyte said:
    If you have perma death getting to high levels could be something worth a shit versus the inevitable destination of every player. I'm not saying I wouldn't be pissed when I died. But if I saw someone who had made it to level 50 I would be like, "hacker." lol. No but you could stretch your content a bit of you had perma death as long as you had one hell of a game for level 1 :)

    Or more likely a large group working together for survival purposes.
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

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  • MisterZebubMisterZebub Member EpicPosts: 3,188
    Rhoklaw said:
    Not to me.  Whatever novelty this multiple lives over a span of time has, I predict folks will lose interest fast.  It's kind of like "so what", is "Bob the Barbarian" the same player as "Bob the Barbarian II"?  If so, why not just keep calling him "Bob the Barbarian"?  Better question, why do devs keep experimenting with stuff doomed to failure?

    Not saying the rest of the game is not going to be good, just talking about this one aspect.
    First off, through the normal aging process, a character could live for roughly 1 real life year. The reason for aging in this game is because of realism. This game is focusing on an ever unfolding story where WE the players partake in it, possibly even as a main character. It would be extremely hard for a story to evolve if no one ever died. Not to mention it adds a hell of a lot of role play to the game. Despite what you may have thought MMORPG's were, they are in fact ROLE PLAYING games. I know, for some MMO fans, it's a hard topic to grasp.
    If you think about it a character aging could add some interesting side effects to roleplaying. "Due to aging your archer Throbbin Hood now receives an aiming penalty due to failing eyesight." "Due to aging Grapathar the Barbarian now suffers a penalty to constitution due to poor dental health impacting a proper diet." "Due to aging your master thief Felix the Cat suffers a penalty to agility due to arthritis." "Due to aging Futpucker the Bold, knight of the seven realms, now suffers a movement penalty due to the combined issues of hemorrhoids and chronic constipation."

    Gee...  sounds like a hoot.


    “I was, in days gone by, a believer. But, alas, I came to this beleaguered land and the God in me just … evaporated. Let us change our toast, then, to the God that has forgotten us.”

  • SedrynTyrosSedrynTyros Member EpicPosts: 2,924
    Rhoklaw said:
    Not to me.  Whatever novelty this multiple lives over a span of time has, I predict folks will lose interest fast.  It's kind of like "so what", is "Bob the Barbarian" the same player as "Bob the Barbarian II"?  If so, why not just keep calling him "Bob the Barbarian"?  Better question, why do devs keep experimenting with stuff doomed to failure?

    Not saying the rest of the game is not going to be good, just talking about this one aspect.
    First off, through the normal aging process, a character could live for roughly 1 real life year. The reason for aging in this game is because of realism. This game is focusing on an ever unfolding story where WE the players partake in it, possibly even as a main character. It would be extremely hard for a story to evolve if no one ever died. Not to mention it adds a hell of a lot of role play to the game. Despite what you may have thought MMORPG's were, they are in fact ROLE PLAYING games. I know, for some MMO fans, it's a hard topic to grasp.
    If you think about it a character aging could add some interesting side effects to roleplaying. "Due to aging your archer Throbbin Hood now receives an aiming penalty due to failing eyesight." "Due to aging Grapathar the Barbarian now suffers a penalty to constitution due to poor dental health impacting a proper diet." "Due to aging your master thief Felix the Cat suffers a penalty to agility due to arthritis." "Due to aging Futpucker the Bold, knight of the seven realms, now suffers a movement penalty due to the combined issues of hemorrhoids and chronic constipation."

    Gee...  sounds like a hoot.
    Doesn't it, though?  I can't wait to the count the liver spots!!
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member EpicPosts: 8,409
    So have fast food that ups his stats but shortens his life span and have organic foods that increase endurance and lengthen life span.  In SWG you could use spice that raised your stats but made you sick after.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • ZultraZultra Member UncommonPosts: 363
    Do not forget about skill ramps say your first life in a soul the character was a carpenter, your second life comes by and you inhabit the heir (oldest son) of that character you would have a skill ramp so it is easier to reach the previously reached level of skill and it enables you to slowly/quickly reach a further skill level. 
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  • KnyttaKnytta Member UncommonPosts: 400
    Did you know that there are Vampires in Chronicles of Elyria? Yes there are some elements that match this world, but even then only vaguely. I really do not think 'realism' is their drive. I know it has been mentioned here a lot but it is rarely mentioned by the developers.


    That is good be prepared that there are going to be LOT of them if they can be characters, they really uncommon toon one will be the rare person that plays a carpenter and then a brewer and so on. The system will have to be extremely well designed to prevent power creep and then it is likely that people will find it boring. 

    Chi puo dir com'egli arde é in picciol fuoco.

    He who can describe the flame does not burn.

    Petrarch


  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,180
    Rhoklaw said:
    It's not hard to dislike something you know nothing about. I'm willing to bet 1/2 of the people claiming to dislike CoE because of this mechanic have no clue of the context it will have in the game. Once you understand what CoE is, how the game as a whole unfolds with EVERY game mechanic along with how the story evolves, than you might understand the need for such mechanics. This will be a ROLE playing game, which isn't something we've seen in a long time. This isn't just some MMO game. This is a player driven story. Everyone will have a dynamic adventure.
    It's also not hard to dislike something you know about. That said... Plenty of games have incorporated aging and death into the greater scheme of things, from the Sims, to The Guild franchise, to Fable. I've never really seen it add much to individual character RP, as much as it creates a dynasty perspective, which isn't exactly typical to many RPG video games. Where character RP is at the forefront in most titles, especially so in the realm of MMORPGs.. It's not surprising there's animosity over the idea here.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • XiaokiXiaoki Member RarePosts: 3,159
    danwest58 said:
    I agree with the OP having PermaDeath in an MMO is a point to say the hell away from this MMO.  Have developers not learned anything?  These ideas do not turn out well but for maybe 5000 people and that is not enough to run a game on ever.  
    Dont forget that CoE will also have FFA PvP.

    NOW you have a winning combination.
  • Deffcon_1Deffcon_1 Member UncommonPosts: 164
    BigRambo said:
     I've said it yesterday and I'll say it again in this thread; under 1% of the MMORPG community wants permadeath / aging, and that's a straight out fact.
    How is this a fact? Do you have a survey or study that supports this claim? Or are you just spouting off a low number because you personally dont like the idea, therefore most people dont? Or is it because all the people you know dont like the idea, so there has to be only a small fraction of players that want it?

    I ask because I have a far more gamer friends that like the idea of permadeath in an MMO than I have friends that dont like it. Most of my MMO friends come from an age where open world PvP and full body loot were the norm, therefore permadeath is just another risk added in.
  • SerylliousSeryllious Member UncommonPosts: 43
    Xiaoki said:
    danwest58 said:
    I agree with the OP having PermaDeath in an MMO is a point to say the hell away from this MMO.  Have developers not learned anything?  These ideas do not turn out well but for maybe 5000 people and that is not enough to run a game on ever.  
    Dont forget that CoE will also have FFA PvP.

    NOW you have a winning combination.
    Yeah! The game sounds horrible - When you ignore 98% of the design concepts.
  • MorwynnMorwynn Member UncommonPosts: 54
    I think many here have not familiarized themselves with the mechanics of aging and death of Elyria. If you have, you would know that 'death' does not mean actual 'Death' and that 'perma-death' does not mean the end of your character's progression; is not starting all over again.  Each character has a soul that lives on from lifetime to lifetime, past perma-death of that character and into the life of the next with all the memories and accomplishments.

    Granted, this game may not be everyone's cup of tea but it was never supposed to be. The produces has been working on the concept, mechanics and some code for this game and engine for over 15 years. This is HIS brain child the way HE wants HIS game to be. And as far as that 1% figure, it is flat wrong to apply it to this game. This game does has perma-death of sorts, but it is not true "Perma-Death."  So before you start bashing the game or telling the world why it won't work try taking 15mins or so to read up on the game, the Journals and see how things work before saying how they won't work...
  • GadzGadz Member UncommonPosts: 32
    i thought "perma death" was going to be that you passed your skills and traits to your kids?

    just think.. if there was raid content.. you could be a 53rd+ generation guy that  your whole family tree wiped on the same boss... in a matter of minutes.. that seems legit :)
  • JeromyWalshJeromyWalsh Soulbound StudiosMember UncommonPosts: 134
    Hey Folks, 
     
    Jeromy Walsh, here. I'm the crazy loon that's spent the last 15 years designing Chronicles of Elyria (also CEO of Soulbound Studios). The nice folks over at ChroniclesOfElyria.com pointed me to this thread and suggested I provide some clarification. After reading over the thread, I'm happy to do so.  
     
    There's been several misunderstandings here on MMORPG.com about our intentions with the game, our target audience, and how some of the mechanics work. So let me take a quick moment to address some of those issues. 
     
    Your Character in Chronicles of Elyria is More (or less) than in other MMOs 
    The first thing you need to understand is that Chronicles of Elyria forces you to think differently about your character than you have in other MMOs. In most MMORPGs your character represents your progress, your wealth, your reputation, and your contribution to the world's story - if any, all at the same time.  
     
    Chronicles of Elyria separates those things, allowing us to tailor the mechanics of each of them for an optimal gaming experience. Here's what I mean:  
     
    In most MMOs your progress is the journey from level 1 to N. There may be death penalties such as skill or experience loss, but otherwise it's one continuous journey from min-level to max-level. The problem is that the other three elements (Wealth, Reputation, & Story) are all bound to your level.  
     
    You can't make a lot of wealth at the lower levels as the dungeons/quests don't provide as significant of rewards as they do later on. Your reputation is similarly handicapped, as your reputation in most MMOs is tied to where you are in the quest chain. If you're talking about player reputation, it's generally tied to your success as a raider or PvP'er - neither of which can really be done effectively at low-levels (aside from smurfing). 
     
    In Chronicles of Elyria, we've separated these key elements with the introduction of unique game mechanics. 
    • The Soul/Reincarnation system separates your progress from the rest of the mechanics 
    • Inheritance and heirs pulls out character wealth 
    • Disguises & Identity corresponds to your reputation 
    • Character death handles story boundaries 
     
    Character [Perma]Death != Permadeath 
    Early on it was said (not initially by us) that Chronicles of Elyria is an MMORPG with "permadeath." However, that's caused a lot of confusion and isn't really true. You see, when most people think about permadeath, they think about games with a hardcore mode. In hardcore mode you continue to progress until you die and then you're forced to start over.  
     
    The problem with that model is that the longer you play, the greater your risk of death. That's not to say that it becomes easier for you to die, it just means that when (not if) you die, you risk more. If you played for a couple hours and died, no big deal. If you've been playing for several months - or years, then permadeath would feel horrible. One good death after having played for several months or years and you're unlikely to start over again. Why? 
     
    The fundamental problem with this design is that *reward* doesn't necessarily increase as *risk* does. That is, unless someone is an "achiever", in which case seeing themselves move up on the ladder is reward enough, most people wouldn't feel like this mechanic caters to their style of play. A significantly smaller percentage of people are willing to lose all their progress solely to see their name move up on a ladder. There are so many other social and emotional needs out there and so many other reasons why people play MMOs. 
     
    That's why in Chronicles of Elyria we don't really have Permadeath. We have Character Death. Character Death is the death of your current character's role in the story. They're no longer able to build their legacy, their chance at amassing wealth has ended, and the reputation and fame they built up with NPCs is gone (unless you become the Dread Pirate Roberts and pass your identity on before you die). If they were in a position of power such as Count, Duke, or King, they're at risk of losing their throne. If they haven't secured an heir they're at risk of losing their wealth. So while Wealth, Reputation, and Story are all at risk of being purged, your progress is preserved - in a way.  
     
    By reincarnating your soul (the part of your character that deals with progress) you're able to get back to where you were previously in a significantly shorter period of time. This time spent at less than your peak can be thought of as a death/XP penalty like in other MMOs. Except, instead of happening each time you're incapacitated or spirit walk, it happens all at once - when your character permadies.  
    Jeromy Walsh, 
    Owner/CEO of Soulbound Studios
    ChroniclesOfElyria.com
  • JeromyWalshJeromyWalsh Soulbound StudiosMember UncommonPosts: 134
    edited November 2015
    (Part 2/3 - begin reading here)

    Multiple Reasons for Character Death 
    So why do we even bother with Character Death if your progress remains largely intact, while resetting your reputation and putting your positions and wealth at risk? For a couple reasons. 
     
    1. While the period of time after reincarnation, when you're working to reach your previous skill level, is significantly shorter than the first time, it can still be a few weeks or months in length. During this time, there's again "low-skilled" characters in the world. The process of being reset for a couple weeks reduces the barrier to entry for other players. This helps to counter the EVE Syndrome, where players have difficulty breaking into the game due to the time-based XP system. While you're training to regain your previous skill as a Blacksmith, someone else may have become the primary smith in the region. 
     
    2. When you reincarnate you've got the chance to enter a new family, focus on different skills, be born in a different location, on a different continent, etc... This allows you to dramatically alter your play experience each time you reincarnate.  
     
    3. In contrast to #2, when your character resets to their younger age, they're able to play in the same areas they played in before. Because the world is dynamic, NPCs are aging & dying, buildings, towns, forests, etc... are destructible, each play-through is a unique experience. This prevents us from having to spend time and resources developing more and more "zones" for higher level content. We will introduce new cool, epic, monsters, etc... but they can be introduced where the players are, rather than forcing the players to travel to them. 
     
    4. The reset to a younger age and then the growth into later years adds a level of immersion to the world. Not everyone running around is a 20's - 30's something character. There will be a constant influx of young, middle-aged, and older characters, each dealing with their own challenges. 
     
    5. While it may not seem like a big deal to lose your place in the story, to have to restart your skill ramps again, etc... when compared to losing 100% of your progress, it's still enough to add risk to every-day play. It's enough to make people think twice before being Heroic, if they know doing so could cause them to forfeit the non-skill progress they've made thus far. In a way, it allows us the ever-increasing risk factor, while being able to also increase reward, and without causing players to risk a full progress wipe. 
     
    6. Chronicles of Elyria uses dynamic stories/quests rather than relying on the same set of quests for every character.  Each time your character is reincarnated they pick a new birthdate which generates, based on your choices, a completely new set of struggles for your character to encounter.  
     
    7. Finally, it creates the opportunity for a unique business model. CoE uses sophisticated AI, and programmable OPC scripts. This means that while your character is "alive", they're in the world consuming CPU cycles. It makes sense that since your character never logs out, you pay for your CPU usage. The easiest way to do that is to pay per character. When your character dies, if you don't seed a new character with your soul, you don't pay any more. It also costs us nothing more. 
     
    At the same time, knowing that your behavior in game and your risk-level will impact the length of your play-time encourages people to play differently than they do in most MMORPGs. If you're an arse to someone, they may kill you, costing you some play-time. If you decide you want to be a hero and go out and do risky things, failure will cost you. 
    Jeromy Walsh, 
    Owner/CEO of Soulbound Studios
    ChroniclesOfElyria.com
  • JeromyWalshJeromyWalsh Soulbound StudiosMember UncommonPosts: 134
    edited November 2015
    (Part 3/3 - begin reading here)

    A Specific Kind of Chocolate 
    Someone in the community recently made an analogy which I've borrowed upon heavily as it's about the most applicable I've read yet. Early MMOs like Ultima Online and EverQuest were likely pure cocoa powder. They were bitter, unrefined, but surprisingly different than the games we'd all played before. 
     
    When World of Warcraft came along they became the Hershey's of the MMO world. Refined, cheaply made, accessible to everyone, Chocolate. For the last 10+ years there's been other MMOs that have come along that have copied the formula (Mars), but in general, it's still the same waxy, forgettable chocolate that we've all grown accustomed to. 
     
    Chronicles of Elyria on the other hand aims to be a nice, artisan Dark Chocolate. It's going to be a bit darker, a bit richer, and a bit more intense than the MMOs people are used to. But we believe there's a growing population of people who are looking for something... more. Something unique and different.  
     
    Do we believe we're going to be a WoW Killer? No. No more than any other candy company is going to come along and introduce a dark chocolate bar so good that people abandon Hershey's in favor of the new stuff. It's simply not going to happen. But, we're not building Soulbound Studios to cater to the volume that World of Warcraft is. We've built the company from the ground up to be a Bean-to-Bar MMORPG company. We will consider ourselves successful with orders of magnitude fewer players than WoW had. But, we do believe there's an audience for the game we're creating. 
     
    At the same time, it's disappointing to us when we see people on the forums here on MMORPG.com and other websites discouraging others from giving our game a chance to flourish. It's like someone standing outside a kitchen, smelling the sweet, sweet, smell of a good chocolate being made, and telling people as they walk by "ignore the smells coming from inside, it's unlikely it'll taste as good as it smells when it's ready." 
     
    Most people are smart enough to ignore the comments. But some aren't. In the end it means some of those people who might have otherwise told their neighbors about the awesome smell, pre-ordered, etc... won't, based entirely on the opinion and extremely subjective "taste buds" of others. What's the takeaway? You might not like the game we're making. We're cool with that. But do us a favor and let other people taste-test for themselves. 
    Jeromy Walsh, 
    Owner/CEO of Soulbound Studios
    ChroniclesOfElyria.com
  • SerylliousSeryllious Member UncommonPosts: 43
    Gadz said:
    i thought "perma death" was going to be that you passed your skills and traits to your kids?

    just think.. if there was raid content.. you could be a 53rd+ generation guy that  your whole family tree wiped on the same boss... in a matter of minutes.. that seems legit :)
    Again - You are ignoring the core concepts of this game. There aren't any traditional raids like what you are thinking - and again, permadeath isn't what you think it is.

    Have you read anything about Incapacitation, Spiritwalking, or anything about souls at all?
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