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How would you make permadeath work?

l2avisml2avism Member UncommonPosts: 386
I think we've overdone it with this whole concept of zombie avatars that magically rise from the dead every time they die.
We need to diversify.

I think that if you base game progression around the actual player instead of what gear the avatar wears or what stats the avatar has.
You should progress in the game by basically learning how to play the game.
We'd have to do away with levels and gear farming and make avatars disposable. It would also be a good idea to make it really hard to die. Instead of PvP always ending in death, there could be a surrender mechanism that grants victory to the opponent. (this could mean dumping inventory on the ground to be looted while allowing the loser to run away naked or something)
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Comments

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,769
    Very simple .. do it like D3.

    Make it an optional game mode.
  • flizzerflizzer Member RarePosts: 2,383
    edited October 2015
    Optional is what I would go with.  One thing I dislike is when people who love permadeath want everyone else to love it or have it as mandatory in games.  What is wrong with optional?  You can play a permadeath character in every existing game.  Fast travel is another of those hot button issues. If you want to walk everywhere, fine.  I will choose fast travel so I don't waste time. 
  • l2avisml2avism Member UncommonPosts: 386
    flizzer said:
    Optional is what I would go with.  One thing I dislike is when people who love permadeath want everyone else to love it or have it as mandatory in games.  What is wrong with optional?  You can play a permadeath character in every existing game.  Fast travel is another of those hot button issues. If you want to walk everywhere, fine.  I will choose fast travel so I don't waste time. 
    Permadeath doesn't work in other games because there is too much of a time investment into your avatar and battles are too quick and always result in something dieing.
  • YanocchiYanocchi Member UncommonPosts: 645
    Permanent death would be most fun in a game where players are spirits who hop from body to body. When a posessed character dies, you loose access to the game for 24 real life hours and when you log in next time, you need to take control of another character or creature living in the world.
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  • deniterdeniter Member RarePosts: 1,311
    I would give each player character a certain amount of 'lifes'. In death you would lose one of them, but they would regenerate back when enough time pass. If you lose all your 'lifes', your character would be permanently dead. If another player resurrected you, you wouldn't lose anything and could continue as normal.

    This would solve many things in MMO game. First, stupid kills. You try to solo a tough elite mob unsuccessfully or pull constantly too many normal mobs, you reroll. Second, you want to harass players from other factions. They call help and your pride keeps you still doing that, you reroll. Third, You're doing your own business, and a player from other faction kills you, but you still show up and try to ignore the pest, you reroll. Dying in MMOs has been too forgiving for a long time. There has to be consequences if you fail, or if your enemy kills you. Full loot is not a good option, imo; maybe in more PvP centric games but not in other MMOs.
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,128
    In a sci-fi MMO, I'd go with something like being able to store consciousness. So, you visit whatever shop, download your consciousness, then head off into the world and do whatever. 

    If you die, your consciousness can be restored into a new body, but will only be at the point where you last downloaded. So, if you downloaded consciousness, then went off leveling for 3 hours and then died, you'd lose all 3 hours of progress. I'd also make such a system full loot, so it'd have to be a game which is less gear reliant than usual and with a strong player economy. 


    Any system with actual full permadeath (loss of everything) just isn't feasible in an mmo. A large part of the attraction of MMOs is that people get attached to their characters. If you kill that character, especially after any sort of decent length of time, chances are the player will quit. 
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 26,069
    edited October 2015
    flizzer said:
    Optional is what I would go with.  One thing I dislike is when people who love permadeath want everyone else to love it or have it as mandatory in games.  What is wrong with optional?  You can play a permadeath character in every existing game.  Fast travel is another of those hot button issues. If you want to walk everywhere, fine.  I will choose fast travel so I don't waste time. 
    And why can't their be a game that utilizes permadeath that people who don't like it don't play?

    Why does every game have to cater to every demographic?

    How about "I dislike when people feel that their preferences have to Trump all". It's as if they feel the entire world should just be homogenized.

    Why can't people of one demographic play the games they like and people of other demographics play the games they like? As long as all of those games can be done well and support themselves realistically based upon what they might take in as far as money.



  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,506
    edited October 2015
    I personally don't think you can make it work in an mmo.  If  there is time investment then losing  your character orgear completely would suck.  If there is no time investment then there really is no attachment which also means no real attachment to the game.  Either way is a no win scenario for permadeath. 
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • ShazPurShazPur Member UncommonPosts: 47
    Making it optional wouldn't be that good an idea because to make the concept interesting you'd have to design the game around it. I'd go for:
    • Character progression shouldn't be the main focus of the game. It should be there but the stuff you can do in the game should be more important.
    • Your characters actions should be able to permanent affect the gameworld around you so you can leave a legacy that lasts beyond your characters life.
    • The game should be as interesting to play for new characters as it is for an experienced one.
    • I'd make the game skillbased rather than levelbased.
    • I'd used some point system where the character gets points for accomplishing difficult missions/quests or achieving other goals. These points could be used on character death to buy perks and unlocking other races and cultures to play for the next character.
  • FdzzaiglFdzzaigl Member UncommonPosts: 2,433
    I think an MMO with permadeath could work. The recent success of roguelikes and games like DayZ is proof that there is a public for them.

    Sadly, most MMO's that currently have permadeath and a few of the upcoming ones pervert their own concepts with stuff like "pay to avoid permadeath" or "pay to avoid stat loss after permadeath".

    You can't fuck around with your core concepts like that.


    One thing that I would like to see is permadeath as a POSITIVE choice rather than a negative punishment.

    How and why would you do such a thing you ask? Well, everyone gets tired of their character at one point or another. Some people roll alts, but for non-altaholics like myself it's usually at that point where we grow tired of our main that we quit a game.

    A positive permadeath would be to take your character on one last heroic journey. Perhaps the character could gain incredible powers in their last moments, perhaps the game could grant you a single wish, something like that. A last meaningful moment.

    Your next character could then level up or progress in a faster way than they normally would through collecting mementos or exploring the feats of your dead previous character.

    Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!

  • mark2123mark2123 Member UncommonPosts: 450
    Permadeath in single player games if fine if you are ok doing the whole thing from scratch - I personally get little satisfaction from seeing everything x number of times and would rather come back with penalties, even if that's going back to last checkpoint or rezzing somewhere inconvenient.

    Permadeath in MMOs is totally defeatist because, assuming the game is about building your character, to have such a penalty will prevent risks or it will just drive people away from the game as the MMO grind is usually enough as it is without the additional grind of starting again.

    Each to their own but I can't see how permadeath in an MMO would appeal to people until it was managed in a 'last man standing concept' i.e. everyone starts at the same time and the winner is the one left standing at the end.  Not sure how to make an MMO out of that concept, but unless you weave permadeath into the game goals i.e. people who die can't re-roll until someone has won, then there's no point to it.
  • FomaldehydeJimFomaldehydeJim Member UncommonPosts: 673
    deniter said:
    I would give each player character a certain amount of 'lifes'. In death you would lose one of them, but they would regenerate back when enough time pass. If you lose all your 'lifes', your character would be permanently dead. If another player resurrected you, you wouldn't lose anything and could continue as normal.

    This would solve many things in MMO game. First, stupid kills. You try to solo a tough elite mob unsuccessfully or pull constantly too many normal mobs, you reroll. Second, you want to harass players from other factions. They call help and your pride keeps you still doing that, you reroll. Third, You're doing your own business, and a player from other faction kills you, but you still show up and try to ignore the pest, you reroll. Dying in MMOs has been too forgiving for a long time. There has to be consequences if you fail, or if your enemy kills you. Full loot is not a good option, imo; maybe in more PvP centric games but not in other MMOs.
    I would play it if designed like this. I would not play it if one bad pull, lag spike or moment of inattention resulted in the loss of many hours of gameplay.
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,482
    I think those survival games when you loose everything when you die and have to start from zero work pretty well.  Getting killed by animals, other players, starvation seems to work well in those games. 

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  • mmoguy43mmoguy43 Member UncommonPosts: 2,770
    l2avism said:
    I think we've overdone it with this whole concept of zombie avatars that magically rise from the dead every time they die.
    We need to diversify.

    I think that if you base game progression around the actual player instead of what gear the avatar wears or what stats the avatar has.
    You should progress in the game by basically learning how to play the game.
    We'd have to do away with levels and gear farming and make avatars disposable. It would also be a good idea to make it really hard to die. Instead of PvP always ending in death, there could be a surrender mechanism that grants victory to the opponent. (this could mean dumping inventory on the ground to be looted while allowing the loser to run away naked or something)
    There would have to be a major incentive to not kill someone and take all their loot. What is going to happen with all the Killer type players?

    I don't personally enjoy perma death most of the time but in certain SP games it can work well. It's possible to have it in multiplayer but things like number of lives, or a dead-cooldown, or attaching it optionally on whatever game aren't good ways to deal with it. The game needs to be designed around the purpose of perma death.

    One way is to sap most of the power (and attachment) from your character. The result would be a grindy with minimal character progression and frequent death type game. I doubt that would go over so well. 

    Something better would be to shift the power into something else. That way you still can be attached to playing and progressing but not necessarily one particular character. I do like the idea of a spirit/consciousness/saved cyberbrain that persists even after death which hold the true strength and power of your character even if it does break the idea of perma death. Though, that is the nature of making permanent events, like death, function in a persistent world.
    I would like to see more player group, guild, clan, nation, or corporation type of progression being were most of the power resides. Playing for the greater good of the group you belong to sounds far more interesting.
    I suppose Crowfall will be like that in some respects. Low character power growth, pvp focus, and the reach of skilled guilds or factions will have the most power, are some of what the game will have along with world perma death instead of character perma death. 
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 2,882
    My suggestion for Permanent Death?  Abandon the idea.

    As long as there is any possibility of accidental death caused by coding issues, network conditions, or social misbehavior, Permadeath just has too many fundamental flaws to be any more than a small niche market.

    And is the ability to create a new character really in the permadeath mentality anyway?  The concept of recreating characters just screams 'Purchase an EXTRA LIFE in our Cash Shop' to me.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    Sovrath said:
    flizzer said:
    Optional is what I would go with.  One thing I dislike is when people who love permadeath want everyone else to love it or have it as mandatory in games.  What is wrong with optional?  You can play a permadeath character in every existing game.  Fast travel is another of those hot button issues. If you want to walk everywhere, fine.  I will choose fast travel so I don't waste time. 
    And why can't their be a game that utilizes permadeath that people who don't like it don't play?

    Why does every game have to cater to every demographic?

    How about "I dislike when people feel that their preferences have to Trump all". It's as if they feel the entire world should just be homogenized.

    Why can't people of one demographic play the games they like and people of other demographics play the games they like? As long as all of those games can be done well and support themselves realistically based upon what they might take in as far as money.

    You know, people around here want something different.  At least until something different is offered, then they want the same old thing.
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  • VelocinoxVelocinox Member UncommonPosts: 1,010
    I've never played a game that didn't have permadeath.

    I guess it's just a matter of your own personal discipline.

    'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.


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  • ZultraZultra Member UncommonPosts: 363
    Chronicles of Elyria does it perfectly IMHO. 
    Sign up for Chronicles of Elyria here don't forget to use my friend code - B4ACB3

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  • RhaegysRhaegys Member UncommonPosts: 29
    Take a look at Chronicles of Elyria. They have a system for permadeath that is very good. You character is created using a soul, it starts in most of the cases at an age between 12-15, your character ages as time pass and he will eventually die. When he permadies, your soul becomes available to create your next character and it brings with it the knowledge of your previous life and in this way your still have the sense of progression in the game. 

    This design journal explains all the mechanics in more detail: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/1308/feature/10014/Design-Journal-4-Incapacitation-Spirit-Walking-and-Permadeath.html 
  • BurntCabbageBurntCabbage Member UncommonPosts: 482

    How would you make permadeath work?

    when you die your dead for good..theres no coming back..then make a new toon but instead of losing those "hight end items / end game gear" (no i m not talking ALL of your gear..unless its ALL end game gear) is stored in a soul..you can regain this soul with the items inside only if you take a penalty buff for a certain amount of time..if this occurs more often like over / over /over again the buff stacks..there ya go now go make a game!

  • dakilla666dakilla666 Member UncommonPosts: 306
    As a long time EVE player, I can tell you that the trick to "permadeath" isn't necessarily focusing on what people can lose, but what can be gained in certain situations by increasing the risk of loss.

    Completely eliminating a person's personal avatar and all the time they invested into it is not feasible in a long-term based RPG as it is in ARPG's or Rogue-like games. That being said, penalizing the players in a certain way (loss of time through item loss or crippled-like/death penalties) can enhance the experience of trying harder content or competing against other players.

    My idea for a solid game in this sense would be to actually make death a viable option for character advancement and not a time sink leading to frustration. I would combine elements from games with rebirth systems such as The 4th Coming and Ragnarok Online with competitive risk/rewards of pvp and raid intensive titles such as WoW and EVE.

    I would want there to be several different levels of "death", falling to a small npc in pve would incur almost no loss where as dying in a pvp battles or raids would permanently reduce your stats. On the flip side, continuously winning pvp battles or completing raids would escalate your strength indefinitely (think a-la Highlander) and would add incentives for people to group together to take down a strong mark or to band together to protect their increased strength.

    I would leave an option for people to sacrifice themselves/transcend , whether you wish to use a rebirth or descent twist to start anew as a low level, low skilled character but with increased based stats / quicker leveling bonuses so that in the scenario that you've become too crippled, you can start again without having the time you played gone to waste.

    By the same token, you could have this option for people who have become extremely powerful to start again while on top to remove the bounties on their own heads and give themselves a huge advantage in leveling again.

    Combine this with less focus being used on players finding gear and instead have them hunt for each other and/or components used for rituals/rebirth process. I would make the gear system extremely simple so that combat is focused on player specialization and skill rather than farming a build and pressing buttons in the most efficient algorithm, I think it would keep players entertained quite a bit.

    The last comment would be that, there would have to be some restrictions, as you wouldn't want players to be able to easily pk and farm other players, so, maybe make the  bonuses/penalties only apply once a player has reached a certain level which would allow them to be competitive/able to farm what is necessary to start over if need be.

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  • laseritlaserit Member EpicPosts: 6,032
    I'm going to Kickstarter my newly designed peripheral "The Permadeath of Doom Box"  When you die in the game of your choice you will receive 1,000,001 volts combined with 1/3 of an amp and BINGO your permadead.


    Only for the Hardcore of coarse.  

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  • flizzerflizzer Member RarePosts: 2,383
    laserit said:
    I'm going to Kickstarter my newly designed peripheral "The Permadeath of Doom Box"  When you die in the game of your choice you will receive 1,000,001 volts combined with 1/3 of an amp and BINGO your permadead.


    Only for the Hardcore of coarse.  
    You joke but I do remember reading article about developer who wanted to deliver a jolt to you when your character died. 
  • l2avisml2avism Member UncommonPosts: 386
    Most of the negative feedback has been something like...
    "No! If i die in combat in 3 hits to a ganker or to lag I'll lose like 3 years of character progression!"
    this kind of ignores my point about making death difficult and about moving progression from the avatar to the player.

    If you make it nearly impossible to die and you make death a non issue then permadeath isn't a big deal.
    You just died? well, make a new character. Are you now 4 years behind where you were? Not really.
    You still have 4 more years of experience at playing that game that someone who just downloaded the game and started playing. You just cant have it work in a game were creating a new character requires like 5 months of endless grinding.

    ALSO if you have the ability to create as many characters as you want and have them all trained up in the background passively then its simply a matter of re-logging and you are back in the game world immediately just on a different character you had saved for the occasion.

    To make permadeath work you have to sever the bond between the avatar and the player. One way I planned on doing this is to have two levels of avatars. You have your main avatars and then you have the secondary avatars they control. In my game concept the dragons (actual players) rule over the human civilizations (playable minions with NPC AI when not played). Since the dragons are almost impossible to kill (they have old forgotten human technology like quantum travel- its a futuristic game after the fall of human civilization) its basically your fault if you kill your dragon. The humans are breed massively in cities you control, and attend training you assign to them so you could basically have 1000 copies of your most favorite mage build ready to go to war at any time.
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 26,069
    I personally don't think you can make it work in an mmo.  If  there is time investment then losing  your character orgear completely would suck.  If there is no time investment then there really is no attachment which also means no real attachment to the game.  Either way is a no win scenario for permadeath. 
    I think this is because people have a very difficult time divorcing themselves from other types of games/mmo's and all they ever do is look at their game of choice and "tack on" permadeath.

    If you and I were to play, say, Medieval Total war would you have less investment because your units die? Or if say you were to win (or lose) would you not want to play another game or would you just say "well, I played it once how can I play it again?

    I actually like many of the suggestions in this thread and think there is merit in each of them. I especially like the suggestion about wanting to have an eventual death.

    It could be something where you keep your character alive as long as you can but there is also a benefit for having a glorious death.

    Additionally the game is probably about a "family" or "dynasty" and not exactly about individual characters. 

    Sort of like the sci fi books "Foundation Series" where you would read about all these characters and then "yadda, yadda, yadda they all are dead for many years/here's some new characters...".

    If a game is to incorporate something like perma-death it cannot be grounded in the old idea of working your character for hours and hours and days and days. It has to be about something larger than those characters while still allowing something alluring about having a character.

    If people cannot make this paradigm shift then it's very difficult to have a real discussion about creating a game that goes beyond individual characters.



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