I appreciate your response tough I was mostly talking about the overly positive remarks by the employers in that link not you saying everything is going as planned.
Good to know you are not shy on admitting the game has it's faults too as some people tend to do.
Well, it is irrelevent if untrue - and there is no firm evidence yet to a level that proves malfeasance. Just a bunch of whinging naysayers and disgruntled ex-employees with clear ulterior motives. Not saying it wont pan out that there have been failures or issues though - I just don't think we yet know.
Given the circumstances I don't think CR will come out of this without deep credibility wounds, even if in reality 'innocent' or just inefficient in terms of programme management.
Thus, if he were to stop taking new crowdfunding, and seek a professional financial backer, voluntarily in effect diluting his potential profits, that would demonstrate where his real motives and commitments are. Maybe that would be acceptable to his pride, satisfy the naysayers and yet let his vision get delivered.
Continuing the virtual ship marketing / sales treadmill though.. I think that sends completely the wrong message in the face of public opinion - even if that opinion is currently based on FUD.
I'm all for innocent until proven guilty but I certainly wouldn't label the claims as "whinging naysayers and disgruntled ex-employees with clear ulterior motives". What exactly are these ulterior motives? You're saying conclusions shouldn't be reached in absence of the full facts while then proceeding to judge these people without all the facts... Let's hope you don't have jury duty any time soon
Well, it is irrelevent if untrue - and there is no firm evidence yet to a level that proves malfeasance. Just a bunch of whinging naysayers and disgruntled ex-employees with clear ulterior motives. Not saying it wont pan out that there have been failures or issues though - I just don't think we yet know.
Given the circumstances I don't think CR will come out of this without deep credibility wounds, even if in reality 'innocent' or just inefficient in terms of programme management.
Thus, if he were to stop taking new crowdfunding, and seek a professional financial backer, voluntarily in effect diluting his potential profits, that would demonstrate where his real motives and commitments are. Maybe that would be acceptable to his pride, satisfy the naysayers and yet let his vision get delivered.
Continuing the virtual ship marketing / sales treadmill though.. I think that sends completely the wrong message in the face of public opinion - even if that opinion is currently based on FUD.
I'm all for innocent until proven guilty but I certainly wouldn't label the claims as "whinging naysayers and disgruntled ex-employees with clear ulterior motives". What exactly are these ulterior motives? You're saying conclusions shouldn't be reached in absence of the full facts while then proceeding to judge these people without all the facts... Let's hope you don't have jury duty any time soon
I see and accept you view, however in my opinion anyone in a high tech high demand environment who feels it necessary to whinge to the world about their employment, rather than deal with things privately or leave and find a job more suitable to them and get on with their life clearly has some kind of vindication or petty vengeance motive. (I'm an IT professional myself and speak from seeing this type of behavior at my firm).
We can't trust those views as verbatim, just as we can't trust SmartyPants or CR as they both clearly have money as a potential ulterior motive. What I'm saying is that all those who prejudge this situation as a CIG ballsup or CR as a crook doom this to failure whether the problems are in fact real or not. So let it play out already.
If CR voluntarily stopped crowdfunding and any additional scope creep right now, at least that would indicate that its not a cash grab.
What I haven't seen is any employees, or former employees (who are not related to the director), come out and say categorically that all these issues are untrue and that the environment at the firm is great (or at least "normal").
This deafening silence seems to be one of the most damning elements of the situation.
Then you should more closely read the SC threads here on MMORPG, because statements of several NAMED and ACTIVE CIG employees (I think 7 of them) - not related to the director - have been posted here. You can also find them in the DevTracker section of the official SC game forum e.g.
They categorically stated that all these issues are untrue and that the environment at the firm is great e.g.
"This is so much better than I expected.
This is a place
for gamers, and when I say that, I mean people that come READY TO PLAY.
The work is hard, the hours are long, and the rewards... well, the
rewards are history in the making."
Have fun
Can you point us to any sources that are not part of "robertspaceindustries"..... Like maybe current/former employees reaching out to the media to back the company?
Btw, that post you linked didn't "categorically stated that all these issues are untrue".
No, definitely not. Actually, aside from the 9 (yes nine) people who "independently" "reached out" to The Escapist, it doesn't seem like any other media anywhere has gotten any statement from anyone. If you don't find that interesting then.... I suppose you're Erillion's counterpoint.
Also, so you're saying that because someone is PART of a company, their public opinion of the company is completely irrelevant. Huh... interesting. Yet the, anonymous, opinion of FORMER employees is somehow valid to the argument.
Can you point us to any sources that are not part of "robertspaceindustries"..... Like maybe current/former employees reaching out to the media to back the company?
Check out what Eric "Wingman" Peterson has to say about his time at CIG. He is still very much a supporter of Star Citizen.
@Erillion btw, the link you gave about "A CIG Employee's Perspective", opens up directly on a post from the community manager (who says the work environment is great, but strangely talks about fear?) , whose intro to the thread was "Posts that perpetuate recent rumor-mongering will be moderated and accounts actioned appropriately", not sure if you can see the irony there.....
You make it sound like this never happens in the real world.
Heh, take a look at the recent allegations on Bill Cosby and you can see how manipulation can be achieved for years. They intimidate the sources with money or threats.
This is a serious matter which can't be simply ended by going out and say the word. Without facts you can be shark food and ruin your whole career.
I have no real vested interest in Star Citizen. Playing a space simulator never appealed to me, never played EVE, etc. But something about this title never seemed right, all that money going in and extorting fans for virtual ships. Maybe extorting is a bad word because they know what they're buying, i guess. I think a lot is in good faith that one day they'll be able to fly all these ships in virtual space. Or some are just addicted and out of their mind, i dunno, both probably. Anyways, this game is going to leave a black mark on MMOs. It hasn't felt right for a long time and I can just see the car crash coming, have for awhile. My outside opinion is if you have anything invested in this title, to get a refund if possible, and be done with it.
Fair enough, and I think sniping at someone through a third party is chickenshit. And more importantly, horribly ineffective.
Honestly I feel if these people who have first hand information would band together and publicly confront the people they feel they've been wronged by it would be a million more times effective then just hiding in the shadows. And they'd actually be better protected from discrimination as there would be far more scrutiny put upon the people they accuse.
But whatever. Feel free to keep on with the "Um, he's sick. My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's
girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the
girl who saw Ferris pass out at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it's
pretty serious." accusations if you think that's really going to solve anything.
Well this is what makes this realm so tricky to navigate. For every legitimate concern an employee has, there's another belly-aching about nothing. For every employee that speaks out, there's another who is afraid of what it might mean for their paycheck. The one they depend on to live off of. And for every boss who would not retaliate against concerns expressed over their own deficiencies, there's another who certainly will.
I agree doing nothing won't solve the issue.. But many times, doing something does even less.
With respect to all those who place the start of SC development at 2011 ... lets agree to disagree. We interpret the available sources differently, some think it means 2011, others (like me) think it means sometime during 2012.
The OFFICIAL start date of Star Citizen development is written on Kickstarter.
After finally getting a good night’s sleep the team here at
Roberts Space Industries would all like to
thank you for helping us make history.
"
Have fun
I would agree to disagree if the demo he showed after that "past year" of work wasn't the majority of what the current hangar and dogfighting module amounts to.
That leaves your argument in a catch-22. If he came up with all that after less than a year of work, he should realistically be much, MUCH farther along after 3 years of work with a legitimate studio of help behind him. If he did spend a year, this is going on 4 years of development and the game is nowhere close to even being a feature complete beta. It all boils down to the lack of progress, really.
You make it sound like this never happens in the real world.
Heh, take a look at the recent allegations on Bill Cosby and you can see how manipulation can be achieved for years. They intimidate the sources with money or threats.
This is a serious matter which can't be simply ended by going out and say the word. Without facts you can be shark food and ruin your whole career.
And yet when these accusers started coming forward in mass, look whos in the hot seat now. I think you may have just made my point better than I did.
Only after the court released a sealed disposition, prior to that those victims who came forward were treated as pariahs. It was his own words that sunk him. Rumors about Cosby were around FOR DECADES. That's why people rarely come forward.
You make it sound like this never happens in the real world.
Heh, take a look at the recent allegations on Bill Cosby and you can see how manipulation can be achieved for years. They intimidate the sources with money or threats.
This is a serious matter which can't be simply ended by going out and say the word. Without facts you can be shark food and ruin your whole career.
And yet when these accusers started coming forward in mass, look whos in the hot seat now. I think you may have just made my point better than I did.
These people didn't come out right away tough that's the point.
With respect to all those who place the start of SC development at 2011 ... lets agree to disagree. We interpret the available sources differently, some think it means 2011, others (like me) think it means sometime during 2012.
The OFFICIAL start date of Star Citizen development is written on Kickstarter.
After finally getting a good night’s sleep the team here at
Roberts Space Industries would all like to
thank you for helping us make history.
"
Have fun
I still find it funny that what you claim to be the official start date of development is the same as the estimated delivery date used to be (and still is for some) for pledge rewards:
Pledge $120 or more
82 backers
QUAD DIGITAL SCOUT: Four digital copies of the finished game and four of everything from the 'Digital Scout' tier. Share with your friends!
Estimated delivery:Nov 2012
Taken from the KS campaign page.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
Star Citizen is being developed by Cloud Imperium Games. Please check out their homepage:
"Cloud Imperium Games Corporation was founded in April 2012"
As you do not plan to change your opinion and I do not plan to change my opinion (and we obviously cannot "agree to disagree") i will not adress this topic anymore as any further statements on that would be superfluous and redundant.
MisterZe
I disagree. It was the fact that these victims stopped coming on one at a time and getting marginalized. When there were finally enough that came forward to the press that the courts could no longer turn a blind eye, they had to act. Same with Jimmy Savile.
I think you should find another example, or refresh yourself on the topic. You really are not helping your argument.
As you do not plan to change your opinion and I do not plan to change my opinion (and we obviously cannot "agree to disagree") i will not adress this topic anymore as any further statements on that would be superfluous and redundant.
Have fun
Well I will. You cannot have your "opinion" on reality.
MisterZe
I disagree. It was the fact that these victims stopped coming on one at a time and getting marginalized. When there were finally enough that came forward to the press that the courts could no longer turn a blind eye, they had to act. Same with Jimmy Savile.
I think you should find another example, or refresh yourself on the topic. You really are not helping your argument.
And again I disagree. Justice is finally being served because people stopped just deciding to keep their head down.
The first public allegations surfaced in the mid 70's the victims who made them were blacklisted from the industry. that trend continued for decades. You really do need to research.
EDIT May I suggest the recent kerfuffle with Amazon? It fits your argument better. Cosbey is really not the one you want to be citing arguing that industry/superior preassure on a career and coming forward doesn't happen.
The whole semantics debate is a tad deep in the weeds for me. But I will concede that if one uses a number(however one defines it) as a marketing point there is some merit to providing an accurate definition of the numbers you use.
The whole semantics debate is a tad deep in the weeds for me. But I will concede that if one uses a number(however one defines it) as a marketing point there is some merit to providing an accurate definition of the numbers you use.
Tell that to the politicians and the media.
Both masters of completely misrepresenting data.
Don't forget deflection. Can't have politics without deflections
Can you point us to any sources that are not part of "robertspaceindustries"..... Like maybe current/former employees reaching out to the media to back the company?
Check out what Eric "Wingman" Peterson has to say about his time at CIG. He is still very much a supporter of Star Citizen.
Have fun
And he also has basically the same public (fans-whales) who are behind Star Citizen, behind this project. So, I just would find a very idiot attitude if he came to public and bashed Star Citizen lol
Despite the fact that he is long "pal" of Chris Roberts.
Meanwhile, hundreds of people who left CIG already did not come out to speak in favor of CIG. Neither other developers of any other company without ties with Chris Roberts came out to claim that CIG is doing ok and they can see that by looking tot he Monthly Reports. Or, from all those 250+ employees they m anaged to get only 7 "voluntarily" coming out to speak in their favor.
Can you point us to any sources that are not part of "robertspaceindustries"..... Like maybe current/former employees reaching out to the media to back the company?
Check out what Eric "Wingman" Peterson has to say about his time at CIG. He is still very much a supporter of Star Citizen.
Have fun
And he also has basically the same public (fans-whales) who are behind Star Citizen, behind this project. So, I just would find a very idiot attitude if he came to public and bashed Star Citizen lol
Despite the fact that he is long "pal" of Chris Roberts.
Meanwhile, hundreds of people who left CIG already did not come out to speak in favor of CIG. Neither other developers of any other company without ties with Chris Roberts came out to claim that CIG is doing ok and they can see that by looking tot he Monthly Reports. Or, from all those 250+ employees they m anaged to get only 7 "voluntarily" coming out to speak in their favor.
Hmmmm.
To be fair that proves roughly about the same thing only in reverse, nada. I suspect you'll find few anywhere who will go on record for or against. The industries too interconnected and migratory for that. It's one reason it's unfortunate other outlets are avoiding independent fact collecting to either debunk or cornfirm. Everyones watching on the sidelines.
The drama surrounding Star Citizen continues and spins even more wildly as cease and desist letters fly. Red Thomas breaks a long hiatus from writing about the game to chime in.
See always said that MMORPG.COM was full of trolls, this includes the writers as well..
Give it a rest already.... This forum makes me sick, and I see why alot of people are not coming here as much, I will do the same if you people keep this up... SBFord, grow up...
@Darkcrystal ; You realize, I'm sure, that I did not write this article. I made the news post about our feature writer @Red_Thomas who is the article's author.
*Rips off SBFord's mask* Red Thomas!!?? Zoinks Scoob!!!!
@SBFord you relayed a message not favorable of our Lord and Savior Christ Roberts so expect many pitchforks and torches and maybe a few verbal beheading.
Comments
I appreciate your response tough I was mostly talking about the overly positive remarks by the employers in that link not you saying everything is going as planned.
Good to know you are not shy on admitting the game has it's faults too as some people tend to do.
We can't trust those views as verbatim, just as we can't trust SmartyPants or CR as they both clearly have money as a potential ulterior motive. What I'm saying is that all those who prejudge this situation as a CIG ballsup or CR as a crook doom this to failure whether the problems are in fact real or not. So let it play out already.
If CR voluntarily stopped crowdfunding and any additional scope creep right now, at least that would indicate that its not a cash grab.
No, definitely not. Actually, aside from the 9 (yes nine) people who "independently" "reached out" to The Escapist, it doesn't seem like any other media anywhere has gotten any statement from anyone. If you don't find that interesting then.... I suppose you're Erillion's counterpoint.
Also, so you're saying that because someone is PART of a company, their public opinion of the company is completely irrelevant. Huh... interesting. Yet the, anonymous, opinion of FORMER employees is somehow valid to the argument.
Pot, meet kettle.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Have fun
Heh, take a look at the recent allegations on Bill Cosby and you can see how manipulation can be achieved for years. They intimidate the sources with money or threats.
This is a serious matter which can't be simply ended by going out and say the word. Without facts you can be shark food and ruin your whole career.
But something about this title never seemed right, all that money going in and extorting fans for virtual ships. Maybe extorting is a bad word because they know what they're buying, i guess. I think a lot is in good faith that one day they'll be able to fly all these ships in virtual space. Or some are just addicted and out of their mind, i dunno, both probably.
Anyways, this game is going to leave a black mark on MMOs. It hasn't felt right for a long time and I can just see the car crash coming, have for awhile.
My outside opinion is if you have anything invested in this title, to get a refund if possible, and be done with it.
I agree doing nothing won't solve the issue.. But many times, doing something does even less.
I would agree to disagree if the demo he showed after that "past year" of work wasn't the majority of what the current hangar and dogfighting module amounts to.
That leaves your argument in a catch-22. If he came up with all that after less than a year of work, he should realistically be much, MUCH farther along after 3 years of work with a legitimate studio of help behind him. If he did spend a year, this is going on 4 years of development and the game is nowhere close to even being a feature complete beta. It all boils down to the lack of progress, really.
People claiming that the development of the "real" game started after ks pledge have an agenda or are simply ignorant.
These are facts. There is nothing to agree or disagree.
Only after the court released a sealed disposition, prior to that those victims who came forward were treated as pariahs. It was his own words that sunk him. Rumors about Cosby were around FOR DECADES. That's why people rarely come forward.
Pledge $120 or more
82 backers
QUAD DIGITAL SCOUT: Four digital copies of the finished game and four of everything from the 'Digital Scout' tier. Share with your friends!
Taken from the KS campaign page.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
I have another opinion.
Star Citizen is being developed by Cloud Imperium Games. Please check out their homepage:
"Cloud Imperium Games Corporation was founded in April 2012"
As you do not plan to change your opinion and I do not plan to change my opinion (and we obviously cannot "agree to disagree") i will not adress this topic anymore as any further statements on that would be superfluous and redundant.
Have fun
That they did not promise to develop the game within one day in November 2012.
Have fun
Also funny that they made the exact same typo a few times, noticed some and fixed them, but missed others.
A creative person is motivated by the desire to achieve, not the desire to beat others.
The first public allegations surfaced in the mid 70's the victims who made them were blacklisted from the industry. that trend continued for decades. You really do need to research.
EDIT May I suggest the recent kerfuffle with Amazon? It fits your argument better. Cosbey is really not the one you want to be citing arguing that industry/superior preassure on a career and coming forward doesn't happen.
Both masters of completely misrepresenting data.
Don't forget deflection. Can't have politics without deflections
Despite the fact that he is long "pal" of Chris Roberts.
Meanwhile, hundreds of people who left CIG already did not come out to speak in favor of CIG. Neither other developers of any other company without ties with Chris Roberts came out to claim that CIG is doing ok and they can see that by looking tot he Monthly Reports. Or, from all those 250+ employees they m anaged to get only 7 "voluntarily" coming out to speak in their favor.
Hmmmm.
Meanwhile, hundreds of people who left CIG......
****
Hundreds ??
Go easy on the meds, pal !
Have fun
To be fair that proves roughly about the same thing only in reverse, nada. I suspect you'll find few anywhere who will go on record for or against. The industries too interconnected and migratory for that. It's one reason it's unfortunate other outlets are avoiding independent fact collecting to either debunk or cornfirm. Everyones watching on the sidelines.