Your opinion on what is winning for you is either valid (and so is mine) or it is not (and neither is mine). However, if it is just that your opinion is right for everyone (else), then you are wrong as long as there is anyone out there that doesn't agree (and I am ok with you being wrong as well).
This is not an opinion on what winning is. People simply don't say "I won!" when they get a nice hat. Getting a nice hat isn't a win. That's just not how the word "win" is applied. They haven't achieved victory or beat anything. There was no competition involved. They just got a nice looking hat is all. And that hat does have value to them, but it's not winning.
The winning I'm describing is how the word is actually used. Not by me, but by everyone. When you are victorious over an encounter, you've won.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Many things in life can be 'won' depending on the criteria of the event.
One may 'win' a beauty contest or costume party prize, or collecting all the items in a 'treasure hunt'. These can be synonymous in context with what many in these threads argue about the CS only pets or cosmetics.
Seems to me it's more akin to envy than anything. The mentality of some, however, see it as a competition regardless of the literal definition.
Your opinion on what is winning for you is either valid (and so is mine) or it is not (and neither is mine). However, if it is just that your opinion is right for everyone (else), then you are wrong as long as there is anyone out there that doesn't agree (and I am ok with you being wrong as well).
This is not an opinion on what winning is. People simply don't say "I won!" when they get a nice hat. Getting a nice hat isn't a win. That's just not how the word "win" is applied. They haven't achieved victory or beat anything. There was no competition involved. They just got a nice looking hat is all. And that hat does have value to them, but it's not winning.
The winning I'm describing is how the word is actually used. Not by me, but by everyone. When you are victorious over an encounter, you've won.
Well, then, I guess you have chosen to be wrong. You dont have to agree with others opinions, but as long as you think that your opinion overrides others... then you are just wrong (and the details don't matter).
@NukeGamer So you don't think being able to BUY the best stats in the game out the cash shop is P2W. Noted. As far as your entitlement mentality comment, you can call it that. I call it taking care of those that have taken care of you before letting the tin foil hat wearing P2W/free loader crowd through the doors.
I don't think so either.
I usually play MMOs only pve and solo .. there is no p2w because there is no winning.
You're all pretty tangent with the original topic of how much whales are actually spending. While being pay to win or not could alter how much they spend, you're not even trying to cover the OPs topic while arguing.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
Whales are not only in free to play games. You should checkout all others. That's a sub.game that's a whales dream.
True .. and i don't see anyone claiming that whales are only in f2p games.
However, given there are many more who play f2p games than sub-only game (e.g. LoL has tens of millions of players, and WOW only have what .. 4 or 5M left?) .... f2p games probably cast a wider net and find more whales.
Whales are not only in free to play games. You should checkout all others. That's a sub.game that's a whales dream.
Correct... and whales spend at the same general level (thousands per month) in P2P games.
How can any player spend significant amounts of money on a P2P game?
To me the biggest "disadvantage" of the P2P model from a business point is the fact that you are effectively putting a cap on how much a person can spend.
If the subscription is 15$ a month, you are effectively limiting a person spending 15$ a month.
Whales are not only in free to play games. You should checkout all others. That's a sub.game that's a whales dream.
Correct... and whales spend at the same general level (thousands per month) in P2P games.
How can any player spend significant amounts of money on a P2P game?
To me the biggest "disadvantage" of the P2P model from a business point is the fact that you are effectively putting a cap on how much a person can spend.
If the subscription is 15$ a month, you are effectively limiting a person spending 15$ a month.
No, you are limiting what YOU, the developer, gets from the player. You can still collect on multiple accounts, which is far more common than one may think, but you have left piles of cash on the table for third party sellers. This is how the item malls and selling extras came about. People were already spending the money elsewhere.
Rewind back to 2003, and for one game (UO) in just one sales channel (eBay) there was $150,000 in sales per week. Expand that out to all the sellers and a dozen or so games, and the numbers are staggering. In 2006, one reseller (IGE) was looking at over $100 million in revenue for the year.
There have always been big spenders in MMOs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Dont know if was mentioned, didnt read all pages, but a few years ago Heros of The Three Kingdoms, a game i bealive is no longer around, had a monthly rank about how much whales spend there, every single month there was at least 3 people above 10k, some above 5k and alot above 1k, every month. Was fun if games implement that rank around, they dont do it because most of whales wanna do it in secret.
Whales are not only in free to play games. You should checkout all others. That's a sub.game that's a whales dream.
Correct... and whales spend at the same general level (thousands per month) in P2P games.
How can any player spend significant amounts of money on a P2P game?
To me the biggest "disadvantage" of the P2P model from a business point is the fact that you are effectively putting a cap on how much a person can spend.
If the subscription is 15$ a month, you are effectively limiting a person spending 15$ a month.
In the late 90's the industry found out that large spenders were willing to Pay for Box + Expansion + Sub for a large group of people. These people were effectively 'employed' by them to make their game better. They would gather the rare items/content for their employer, and block others from getting them.
It became bad enough in the 2000's that developers started changing how the game was coded (moving from open world to instanced content for example) because the public was being prevented from accessing the better content.
The publishers didn't want to stop this practice (as it made them a ton of money) but they did want to have more people access the content that they had developed. This is what caused many games to change after 6m/1y because the developers could see that access to content was blocked.
This is also what has driven games to include alternate monetization (best example is Eve and Plex) that would allow for this same exchange, but on a public scale.
Dont know if was mentioned, didnt read all pages, but a few years ago Heros of The Three Kingdoms, a game i bealive is no longer around, had a monthly rank about how much whales spend there, every single month there was at least 3 people above 10k, some above 5k and alot above 1k, every month. Was fun if games implement that rank around, they dont do it because most of whales wanna do it in secret.
They should .. also give whales more reason to spend .. get on top of the chart.
Many things in life can be 'won' depending on the criteria of the event.
One may 'win' a beauty contest or costume party prize, or collecting all the items in a 'treasure hunt'. These can be synonymous in context with what many in these threads argue about the CS only pets or cosmetics.
Seems to me it's more akin to envy than anything. The mentality of some, however, see it as a competition regardless of the literal definition.
Yes, exactly! Based on the criteria of the event. Not based on arbitrary goals, but based on the event's rules. The game's rules.
I'm definitely not saying winning only exists as PVE and PVP challenges. If a costume contest existed in an MMORPG, there would certainly be winning involved.
Envy certainly can be a factor, but is definitely a bigger factor with the wrong use of P2W (since envy is really the only thing driving whether a player would be worried about someone buying a nice-looking hat, in a game where nice-looking hats have zero relevance to winning.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Time to put this Whales vs Sub myth to rest. Apples to Apples... #1 vs #1 League of Legends vs WoW
World of Warcraft has consistently brought in a billion dollars in each of the last five years. For Blizzard to get their billion they only need 5,555,556 subscribers paying $15 a month. That does not take into consideration Blizzards cash shop which brings their subscribers numbers required to get to a billion even down further.
Now, let's look at League of Legends. For the very first time, we have a micro transaction game top 1 billion dollars in 2014. Question is, what did it take to get $1,000,000,000?
Many things in life can be 'won' depending on the criteria of the event.
One may 'win' a beauty contest or costume party prize, or collecting all the items in a 'treasure hunt'. These can be synonymous in context with what many in these threads argue about the CS only pets or cosmetics.
Seems to me it's more akin to envy than anything. The mentality of some, however, see it as a competition regardless of the literal definition.
Yes, exactly! Based on the criteria of the event. Not based on arbitrary goals, but based on the event's rules. The game's rules.
I'm definitely not saying winning only exists as PVE and PVP challenges. If a costume contest existed in an MMORPG, there would certainly be winning involved.
Envy certainly can be a factor, but is definitely a bigger factor with the wrong use of P2W (since envy is really the only thing driving whether a player would be worried about someone buying a nice-looking hat, in a game where nice-looking hats have zero relevance to winning.)
The game clearly does NOT consider killing a mob a win, just as chess does not consider the taking of a pawn a win. Both are mechanics in the game, but neither is a formal win, as defined by the game.
It is your OPINION that this should be considered a win... which I can accept. What I have issue with is that that it is also your position that others having their own opinions (which conflict with yours) are not equally valid.
The game clearly does NOT consider killing a mob a win, just as chess does not consider the taking of a pawn a win. Both are mechanics in the game, but neither is a formal win, as defined by the game.
It is your OPINION that this should be considered a win... which I can accept. What I have issue with is that that it is also your position that others having their own opinions (which conflict with yours) are not equally valid.
In all fairness, the definition of 'win' like many other words have multiple meanings in the literal sense as can be seen in most dictionaries.
In my previous post I tried to indicate as such.
At any rate, in games like Mmo's, buying anything in a CS to complete a collection (getting back to the topic at hand lol), or items to get to level cap faster is not 'winning' in any literal sense as there is no effort, or contest involved to achieve the reward as most dictionary defines it.
Though it can be argued that society does change the meaning of words by common usage and ultimately forces dictionaries to change their definitions.
Time to put this Whales vs Sub myth to rest. Apples to Apples... #1 vs #1 League of Legends vs WoW
World of Warcraft has consistently brought in a billion dollars in each of the last five years. For Blizzard to get their billion they only need 5,555,556 subscribers paying $15 a month. That does not take into consideration Blizzards cash shop which brings their subscribers numbers required to get to a billion even down further.
Now, let's look at League of Legends. For the very first time, we have a micro transaction game top 1 billion dollars in 2014. Question is, what did it take to get $1,000,000,000?
What about true Apples to Apples? LOTRO revenue tripled back when they converted to F2P. Same game. P2P vs F2P.
What about the fact that a discussion on which model makes more money isn't actually concerned with revenue/payer, but with revenue? Yeah that kid selling OJ $5/glass is making more per customer than Tropicana, but are you really saying his business model is better than theirs?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I think it is all in the hook. I watched a guy drop 100 bucks a day to attack a boss in a browser game even though he could have paid for the prizes he got for about a buck. Ego to be top dog even though everyone knew he paid tons to do barely better then the free players.
The game clearly does NOT consider killing a mob a win, just as chess does not consider the taking of a pawn a win. Both are mechanics in the game, but neither is a formal win, as defined by the game.
If most MMOs didn't reward players with cash, items and progression points for killing a mob, then I'd be on board with that.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Time to put this Whales vs Sub myth to rest. Apples to Apples... #1 vs #1 League of Legends vs WoW
World of Warcraft has consistently brought in a billion dollars in each of the last five years. For Blizzard to get their billion they only need 5,555,556 subscribers paying $15 a month. That does not take into consideration Blizzards cash shop which brings their subscribers numbers required to get to a billion even down further.
Now, let's look at League of Legends. For the very first time, we have a micro transaction game top 1 billion dollars in 2014. Question is, what did it take to get $1,000,000,000?
Axehilt said: LOTRO revenue tripled back when they converted to F2P. Same game. P2P vs F2P.
Interesting observation of the disparity in standards people have for a F2P title vs a B2P title at least. We can see it repeat with multiple titles now where they aren't "good enough" as a B2P to warrant people's investment, yet as literally the same title offered in F2P it sees more success and a generally more positive outlook even though they generally possess the same fundamental traits and flaws as ever.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
The only game I have really had a problem with this is Archage but I see it being a problem in Black Desert as well because they are adding another stupid system like the labor system in archage. Aparently these systems are added in Korean MMOS to limit there game time since they have the internet laws there with a time limit.
Axehilt said: LOTRO revenue tripled back when they converted to F2P. Same game. P2P vs F2P.
Interesting observation of the disparity in standards people have for a F2P title vs a B2P title at least. We can see it repeat with multiple titles now where they aren't "good enough" as a B2P to warrant people's investment, yet as literally the same title offered in F2P it sees more success and a generally more positive outlook even though they generally possess the same fundamental traits and flaws as ever.
It doesn't appear to be a disparity in standards, rather multiple payment options combined with the floodgates opened on a conversion channel. Had it been a disparity in standards, subs would not have gone up in games like SWTOR and LOTRO when switching to free to play.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Just pointing out the comment about WoW not hitting $1B in 2014 was wrong. WoW has hit $1B five years in a row.
WoW only made 728m USD in revenue in the year of 2014, being beaten out by Dungeon Fighter Online, Cross Fire, and League of Legends. 2013 was the last year that they hit the 1b USD mark.
Then again there's only one source of this data.
Moreover people should note that the payment methods for World of Warcraft are not the same across the entire globe.
Comments
The winning I'm describing is how the word is actually used. Not by me, but by everyone. When you are victorious over an encounter, you've won.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
One may 'win' a beauty contest or costume party prize, or collecting all the items in a 'treasure hunt'.
These can be synonymous in context with what many in these threads argue about the CS only pets or cosmetics.
Seems to me it's more akin to envy than anything. The mentality of some, however, see it as a competition regardless of the literal definition.
I usually play MMOs only pve and solo .. there is no p2w because there is no winning.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
However, given there are many more who play f2p games than sub-only game (e.g. LoL has tens of millions of players, and WOW only have what .. 4 or 5M left?) .... f2p games probably cast a wider net and find more whales.
To me the biggest "disadvantage" of the P2P model from a business point is the fact that you are effectively putting a cap on how much a person can spend.
If the subscription is 15$ a month, you are effectively limiting a person spending 15$ a month.
Rewind back to 2003, and for one game (UO) in just one sales channel (eBay) there was $150,000 in sales per week. Expand that out to all the sellers and a dozen or so games, and the numbers are staggering. In 2006, one reseller (IGE) was looking at over $100 million in revenue for the year.
There have always been big spenders in MMOs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It became bad enough in the 2000's that developers started changing how the game was coded (moving from open world to instanced content for example) because the public was being prevented from accessing the better content.
The publishers didn't want to stop this practice (as it made them a ton of money) but they did want to have more people access the content that they had developed. This is what caused many games to change after 6m/1y because the developers could see that access to content was blocked.
This is also what has driven games to include alternate monetization (best example is Eve and Plex) that would allow for this same exchange, but on a public scale.
I'm definitely not saying winning only exists as PVE and PVP challenges. If a costume contest existed in an MMORPG, there would certainly be winning involved.
Envy certainly can be a factor, but is definitely a bigger factor with the wrong use of P2W (since envy is really the only thing driving whether a player would be worried about someone buying a nice-looking hat, in a game where nice-looking hats have zero relevance to winning.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
http://www.engadget.com/2014/10/23/league-of-legends-tops-mmo-revenue-list-hearthstone-no-10/
LOL makes more money than WoW in 2014. Sure .. they do it with more players .. but so what? If you can't find enough sub players, it is moot.
BTW, WoW does not even hit $1B in 2014 ... probably because out of their "active" players .. many are in Asia and they are NOT paying $15 a month.
And WOW is just a blip ... out of the top 10 MMOs, only WOW is sub-only.
It is your OPINION that this should be considered a win... which I can accept. What I have issue with is that that it is also your position that others having their own opinions (which conflict with yours) are not equally valid.
In my previous post I tried to indicate as such.
At any rate, in games like Mmo's, buying anything in a CS to complete a collection (getting back to the topic at hand lol), or items to get to level cap faster is not 'winning' in any literal sense as there is no effort, or contest involved to achieve the reward as most dictionary defines it.
Though it can be argued that society does change the meaning of words by common usage and ultimately forces dictionaries to change their definitions.
So, I see you both as being right. :awesome:
What about the fact that a discussion on which model makes more money isn't actually concerned with revenue/payer, but with revenue? Yeah that kid selling OJ $5/glass is making more per customer than Tropicana, but are you really saying his business model is better than theirs?
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Are you disputing that LoL made MORE money than wow in 2014 .. and that in the top 10 MMOs, there is only ONE sub-only game?
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Then again there's only one source of this data.
Moreover people should note that the payment methods for World of Warcraft are not the same across the entire globe.