Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime, that's the worst that can happen, and there are laws to protect against it. Hence all the hoopla right now CR and crew are facing.. So what more regulation is needed?
Oh I don't know... mandatory quarterly financial reports for any KS project over 100K? Too much to ask for?
I actually kind of like this idea. Quickly someone elect this man president.
Seriously elect this dude, his one comment on a message board was more insightful than every moron who's hit a pulpit in the USA for 16 years.
Derek Smart will be in Jail soon enough if he keeps pretending he is protected by the 5th amendment. DS Lawyers is in full bluff mode.
I think we all know this is the equivalent of his lawyer
If you look into the interwebz you´ll find out that Smart has a history of lawsuit threatening for 20 years. It´s his special ability, press F5 for lawsuit threat.
Seriously, the guy is a joke. It's amazing he has so many people snowed over this considering how easy it is to find out what he's really about with the power of googles.
Same can be said about CR.
Not even close, man. Not even close. The fact that you would claim such says a lot.
You know thats exactly how I picture Ortwin screaming and running away when presented with real lawyers who know what they are talking about
Mandatory quarterly financial reports would be fair. But also once you start a KS then you are forbidden to go and sell anything that isn't in the game and able to work. You could charge a monthly fee maybe but there has to some kind of rules setup. If you leave the KS and start to ask for money for in game items then you lose the KS money and have to pay all backers back.
Just speed thinking but something has to be setup to protect the backers. Where it has been stated they made more after the KS and the little money made from it isn't as good as the money made after. Just not right in my opinion.
There has been some low profile shit been exposed for not doing the KS right - financially, with their lack of technical expertise or ethically. Bu this ain't some low profile crowd funding two-bit game, so yes, it will do more than jack squat. And maybe you haven't noticed but gamer's attitude towards crowdfunding has been getting a bit more skeptical and jaded over time.
Will people still "donate" to future projects even if SC fails? Yeah, they probably will and they'll pay $149 for alpha and beta access and all kinds of other crazy shit... I still remember when $149 seemed like an outrageously large amount to give for Landmark and Archeage ahead of release. Now it just seems like a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of CIG ships.
Yeah. It's their money and they can take chances with it or not... and gambling also should not be regulated... and while we're at it let's not regulate stocks either. Because, you know, people know the risks and it's their money after all.
Are people that gamble doing so to help a casino make a product? Are people investing in stocks so they can see a product be a success, not really... It's quite the opposite, they're investing so they can flourish.
Totally different things. That's what makes no sense to me about those who post strong opinions against KS or Crowd funding in general. I don't see where the motivation in it is, as those doing this aren't just doing it willy nilly, they have reasons that they want to do it. Because they can afford to do it.
Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime, that's the worst that can happen, and there are laws to protect against it. Hence all the hoopla right now CR and crew are facing.. So what more regulation is needed?
I agree they are totally different CK/Gambling there are two paths forward the industry and industry media can start policing itself, or be policed. If it shows a marked tendency to trend one way or another , the results will reflect that
"So what more regulation is needed?" This depends; as I've stated before; if an industry can police it self the regulation it gets (if any) will be "lets job grow" type. However if regulators feel the need to step in to "Fix Yo s_" things are different. In the latter case I find it likely that the "investigators" and "regulators" will be not pre-dominantly gamers, will not be all that aware of gaming, and fairly un-interested in educating themselves about gaming. They will be less interested in protecting the "industry" than in protecting commerce. A key distinction.
"Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime" yes they are, however if Enough continue to violate it for long enough...from a legislators perspective...well I guess we need to write more. It's kind of what they do.
Also keep in mind it might not be a unilateral set of regs either, particularly if individual states/nations approach it different ways. It's not in-conceivable one ends up with a patchwork of regs some poor shlep in the future is going to have to try to thread a needle through. How would you like to be a dev write a game/marketing/ditro plan trying to meet 40+ regs in the upper 48 + whatever federal and national ones crop up. As likely as not some directly conflicting with others. At least initially till whatever impetus drove the reg rage gets distracted by something else.
Nice to see the control freaks coming out of the closet to plan everyone's government obligations for them. Good job.
This is why whiners are dangerous. In times past they were the "there oughtta be a law" people and before you know it there were rules about putting ice cream cones in your pocket on Sunday.
Just because money changes hands does not invite everyone to try to control it. It's nobody's business how people interact with each other, right? If someone wants to impose a bunch of rules on themselves, there is already a business model for that. This need some people have to dominate and control is getting to be too much.
Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime, that's the worst that can happen, and there are laws to protect against it. Hence all the hoopla right now CR and crew are facing.. So what more regulation is needed?
Oh I don't know... mandatory quarterly financial reports for any KS project over 100K? Too much to ask for?
The thing is KS backers are not "shareholders" and shouldn't have the right thereof BUT say for example a new ks quarterly report law was introduced that forced ks projects to do quarterly reports just to show how the money was being used and to avoid scams/abuse I would be okay with that.
There would be one caveat though these reports only last until the KS promises/goals etc were fulfilled, also any money earned OUTSIDE of the KS period is not subject to these reports.
I mean when you back a KS your not buying shares so don't expect any rights as if you did own some.
Someone previously, some pages back, mentioned that CIG wasn't being held accountable or had no oversight or something of that nature but this isn't entirely true.
The problem is that, if the info I saw was true, CR hold 85% shares, Ortwin Freyermouth has 10% and ER has the last 5%. Therefore technically there is oversight and someone for them to report to. It just happens to be themselves.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime, that's the worst that can happen, and there are laws to protect against it. Hence all the hoopla right now CR and crew are facing.. So what more regulation is needed?
Oh I don't know... mandatory quarterly financial reports for any KS project over 100K? Too much to ask for?
The thing is KS backers are not "shareholders" and shouldn't have the right thereof BUT say for example a new ks quarterly report law was introduced that forced ks projects to do quarterly reports just to show how the money was being used and to avoid scams/abuse I would be okay with that.
There would be one caveat though these reports only last until the KS promises/goals etc were fulfilled, also any money earned OUTSIDE of the KS period is not subject to these reports.
I mean when you back a KS your not buying shares so don't expect any rights as if you did own some.
Someone previously, some pages back, mentioned that CIG wasn't being held accountable or had no oversight or something of that nature but this isn't entirely true.
The problem is that, if the info I saw was true, CR hold 85% shares, Ortwin Freyermouth has 10% and ER has the last 5%. Therefore technically there is oversight and someone for them to report to. It just happens to be themselves.
It doesn't have to be a law. It'd be a lot better if KS made that part of their TOS. Self regulation is always better. And if KS does it, any non-KS crowdfunding project would pretty well have to follow suit or look dodgy for not doing it.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I'm still going to wait to see how this all pans out, but if there is DEFINITELY a flaw Roberts has, it is the inability to say "Ok. We have enough features now."
Seriously. Chris needs someone to sit next to him and wait for that sparkle in his eye to start and then yell no at him and hit him with a rolled up paper.
I don't know if that's a flaw or if it's just the nature of creative people like CR, Garriott, and other developers that create these amazing game worlds we play in. I wonder how many artists crap up what would have otherwise been a good painting, sculpture, or other work of art because they just went so overboard in their passion to make it the perfect masterpiece that it either never got finished or was just a big unweildy mess when it was done.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm still going to wait to see how this all pans out, but if there is DEFINITELY a flaw Roberts has, it is the inability to say "Ok. We have enough features now."
Seriously. Chris needs someone to sit next to him and wait for that sparkle in his eye to start and then yell no at him and hit him with a rolled up paper.
I don't know if that's a flaw or if it's just the nature of creative people like CR, Garriott, and other developers that create these amazing game worlds we play in. I wonder how many artists crap up what would have otherwise been a good painting, sculpture, or other work of art because they just went so overboard in their passion to make it the perfect masterpiece that it either never got finished or was just a big unweildy mess when it was done.
As an artist I can answer that for you: All the time.
There is always a desire to put just a bit more time, just a bit more detail, more colors here, another line there, and in the end it looks worse. I've gotten hours into a model project just to scrap it all out of frustration just because a single detail always looked wrong.
The irony being that the same attention to detail that makes a good artist is the same attention to detail that costs time and money to redo something that would have been just fine.
Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime, that's the worst that can happen, and there are laws to protect against it. Hence all the hoopla right now CR and crew are facing.. So what more regulation is needed?
Oh I don't know... mandatory quarterly financial reports for any KS project over 100K? Too much to ask for?
Aside from the fact that I'm not a fan of over regulation on what is essentially a private affair between donor and recipient. What good would that really do? Most wouldn't know what they're looking at, secondly most wouldn't understand half the expenses in relation to a Dev studio, that would cause more confusion than we see now IMO.
Being a private business is a choice companies make, a funding source is a funding source like any other. Be it private donation private investor or public investment. You're essentially stripping a company of choice on how to do business. One that is afforded to any other company in the US as far as I am aware..
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Seriously. Chris needs someone to sit next to him and wait for that sparkle in his eye to start and then yell no at him and hit him with a rolled up paper.
That is what brothers are for, no ? ;-)
Seems to me Erin and Chris together are a good team.
Have fun
PS: If you like space and spaceships ....and maybe you do, posting in this thread ..... Go see "The Martian". Awesome movie, stunning visuals, good actors, great quotes. I think i have a new favorite : "I’m going to have to science the shit out of this...."
Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime, that's the worst that can happen, and there are laws to protect against it. Hence all the hoopla right now CR and crew are facing.. So what more regulation is needed?
Oh I don't know... mandatory quarterly financial reports for any KS project over 100K? Too much to ask for?
Aside from the fact that I'm not a fan of over regulation on what is essentially a private affair between donor and recipient. WHat good would that really do, most wouldn't even know what they're looking at, secondly most wouldn't understand half the expenses in relation to a Dev studio, that would cause more confusion than we see now IMO.
Over-regulating crowdfunding removes some of the incentive for a development studio to use it in the first place. One of the reasons it's attractive for them is that they don't have to bend to please investors.
I think the better approach would be to increase the awareness of what it means to pledge to a crowdfunded project. It should be really drilled home that it's a donation not an investment and that if the project fails you will get nothing in return. Then you let people take their chances and when they start to complain the project is taking too long you apologize for the delay and politely tell them to shut the fuck up.
That's just it, once it gets to a point that it's looking like a sham there are things that can be done. such as a class action lawsuit. Go down the list of possible crimes from there.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Seems to me Erin and Chris together are a good team.
Have fun
Yeah not really though... back in Origin Systems days it was really Richard Garriott and Warren Spector it seems that are the project managers, and they delivers.
Erin was another creative guys, that's why Digital Anvil seems to suffer similar sort of problems when they were making Freelancer and Starlancer.
Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime, that's the worst that can happen, and there are laws to protect against it. Hence all the hoopla right now CR and crew are facing.. So what more regulation is needed?
Oh I don't know... mandatory quarterly financial reports for any KS project over 100K? Too much to ask for?
Aside from the fact that I'm not a fan of over regulation on what is essentially a private affair between donor and recipient. WHat good would that really do, most wouldn't even know what they're looking at, secondly most wouldn't understand half the expenses in relation to a Dev studio, that would cause more confusion than we see now IMO.
Over-regulating crowdfunding removes some of the incentive for a development studio to use it in the first place. One of the reasons it's attractive for them is that they don't have to bend to please investors.
I think the better approach would be to increase the awareness of what it means to pledge to a crowdfunded project. It should be really drilled home that it's a donation not an investment and that if the project fails you will get nothing in return. Then you let people take their chances and when they start to complain the project is taking too long you apologize for the delay and politely tell them to shut the fuck up.
Wait, so your argument is that it's good crowdfunding provides free unaccountable money because otherwise people might actually think twice about trying to get crowdfunding money for their pie-in-the-sky projects?
Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime, that's the worst that can happen, and there are laws to protect against it. Hence all the hoopla right now CR and crew are facing.. So what more regulation is needed?
Oh I don't know... mandatory quarterly financial reports for any KS project over 100K? Too much to ask for?
Aside from the fact that I'm not a fan of over regulation on what is essentially a private affair between donor and recipient. What good would that really do? Most wouldn't know what they're looking at, secondly most wouldn't understand half the expenses in relation to a Dev studio, that would cause more confusion than we see now IMO.
Being a private business is a choice companies make, a funding source is a funding source like any other. Be it private donation private investor or public investment. You're essentially stripping a company of choice on how to do business. One that is afforded to any other company in the US as far as I am aware..
I don't think there is a need for regulation. This is already covered with standard charity donations. If the recipient uses the funds for anything else than what the donors gave it for then they will be accountable for it and possibly go to jail.
With CIG it is also covered by standard federal commerce laws because people are not donating they are buying ships in an online store. So a product is sold and if that product is not delivered then it is fraud.
They have a separate section for "pledges" a.k.a. donations. The Shop is just that, an online shop where you buy virtual items not a donation.
Of cause this would go to court and the outcome is unknown but the facts are that ship sales, merchandise and other digital items are not donations.
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling." - Michael Bitton Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about." - SEANMCAD
I will admit maybe some of my posts probably do come across as being harsh i don't intentionally mean them that way but i usually say things as i can see them, i only posted to state my view and some how i have seemed to of got sucked in, i was only showing an interest in the game because more threads kept coming on the forum about the game and that was way before all this started.
I don't have an agenda i was just posted my view as i see it and trying to get a point across, but i don't think my view or the point i was trying to get across didn't go down well with some people.
Don't play the poor misunderstood victim, you have been told your posts are redundant because they are and you seem intent on ramming the same thing down everyones throat.
When We point out we got the dang message so feel free to move on to a different argument You get like you do in the post you quoted of Dren Utogi and very like a hypocrite try to lump us all together with Dren Utogi.
You seem to want to do this kind of thing ad nauseam and think we wont see it or so you can keep playing the poor damsel in distress.
Heh and you keep going on about SC fanatics...lol
We can sum up your posts to:
~ OMGZ why are SC fanatics so gullible and blind it is unhealthy for them
~OMGZ why do people trust CR he just a man on the interwebz, they must be SC fanatics 0.o.0 (and here u lump in anyone that doesn't agree with your statements or reasoning)
~ Why doesn't CR do what I WANT and stop selling ship to prove to me that he's not scamming me
~ OMG if your not a fanatic why wont you jump in my bandwagon and demand the same from CR that I want
~ OMG why doesn't anyone listen to me
~ OMG I can''t help you if you don't understand how my mind works o.0o.o
Rinse and repeat with different words and not subtle variations....
Ad nauseam
I don't see how what i posted is acting like a victim, someone commented on one of my posts and i answered honestly i don't know where you get the victim part.
I have said multiple things in my posts, i have already explained the point i was trying to get a across, ok you may of got it but others still haven't as i can see.
But if things go belly up or the game isn't to your liking don't come whining on the forum because people will go through your post history, they did it with people who where complaining about archgeage, so all these people who think chris roberts can do no wrong or fail these people will probably just get laughed at.
Please try and tell me how what i posted about Dren Utogi gave you this thought and you posted it i am confused.
When We point out we got the dang message so feel free to move on to a
different argument You get like you do in the post you quoted of Dren
Utogi and very like a hypocrite try to lump us all together with Dren
Utogi.
How is what i posted lumping us all together ?
Plus if you are not a fanatic and don't believe everything chris roberts is saying is the truth then my posts don't apply too you.
Also someone who says omg so many times i can't take seriously, if anyone has seen the only way is essex will know what i mean. lol
Plus i have noticed why mosts of my posyts seem the same that is because when i made a comment i had to reply to different people so i was obviously explaining the same thing to different people on different occassions.
I think that KS is just a really good marketing platform now. Also, it's a good way to ensure you have buy-in. Some people (like inXile Entertainment) have used it multiple times, despite being successful with their other games. It just gives some re-assurance that you're headed in the right direction. There's an interest.
In the case of CR, I think that the initial concept was more modest than his "best case" vision, but it's gotten to a point where I think he feels like he can make the game he wants to make. I say "cool". Go for it. Just make sure that there's something in the end. Like I said, I'd even settle for a Freelance 2 or Privateer 3. I definitely don't think it's a scam though. The whole scam or con angle just doesn't make good sense. Even if he was a criminal.
That's true. Even the sources cited in the original Escapist article don't seem to think he's out to scam anyone; they just think he's biting off more than he can chew on the backers' dimes and it's having a negative effect on the development of an actual end product.
Considering the all-over-the-place development (Squadron 42 is scheduled for rel- oh nevermind, maybe it will or won't) and the overall lack of progress in building and showing the world (and not just some arena-style empty space and a hangar), I can say that's a lot more believable claim than that CR is a scam artist. Much more likely (though I am not claiming to know for a fact, just in comparison to the "scam" claims), he's just a poor project manager that happened to be extraordinarily funded by the crowd and (may) end up crippling the crowdfunding scene if he manages to run the project into the ground.
I agree with you that this project will have an impact on the crowdfunding scene.
As for CR as a project manager, well he's broken the project down into modules, so +1 on that part. AC is out, so check mark on that. We've got the whole flying in space thing down. I guess we'll see what comes of S42 this weekend.
Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime, that's the worst that can happen, and there are laws to protect against it. Hence all the hoopla right now CR and crew are facing.. So what more regulation is needed?
Oh I don't know... mandatory quarterly financial reports for any KS project over 100K? Too much to ask for?
Yes it is as it should be for all KS projects or none. And while we're on the subject if people are really annoyed that they feel that kickstarter projects have no oversight why the living fuck aren't any of them directing this anger at Kickstarter themselves, as they're the ones who have to change the rules.
Is this a REAL problem or a perceived problem? The rate of success for Kickstarter-funded games is increasing year-over-year. It says that people are becoming more educated about the process, what's realistic, what isn't, and also saving their money for projects that have a team that can execute. Kickstarter-funded games have shipped a game in over 80% of cases, including games up until the end of 2014. Also, that includes all the games which AREN'T meant to ship yet, so that doesn't mean that 20% are not going to ship. In fact, there are very few project which out-right throw in the towel.
So what is it that increased accountability is solving, exactly? Now, SC is an exceptional case, but they raised the majority of money outside the KS campaign, so where to these rules apply? To what extent? How do you enforce them? It's a legal nightmare, really, and, honestly, I don't think that people really give a shit in the majority of cases.
Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime, that's the worst that can happen, and there are laws to protect against it. Hence all the hoopla right now CR and crew are facing.. So what more regulation is needed?
Oh I don't know... mandatory quarterly financial reports for any KS project over 100K? Too much to ask for?
Aside from the fact that I'm not a fan of over regulation on what is essentially a private affair between donor and recipient. What good would that really do? Most wouldn't know what they're looking at, secondly most wouldn't understand half the expenses in relation to a Dev studio, that would cause more confusion than we see now IMO.
Being a private business is a choice companies make, a funding source is a funding source like any other. Be it private donation private investor or public investment. You're essentially stripping a company of choice on how to do business. One that is afforded to any other company in the US as far as I am aware..
I don't think there is a need for regulation. This is already covered with standard charity donations. If the recipient uses the funds for anything else than what the donors gave it for then they will be accountable for it and possibly go to jail.
With CIG it is also covered by standard federal commerce laws because people are not donating they are buying ships in an online store. So a product is sold and if that product is not delivered then it is fraud.
They have a separate section for "pledges" a.k.a. donations. The Shop is just that, an online shop where you buy virtual items not a donation.
Of cause this would go to court and the outcome is unknown but the facts are that ship sales, merchandise and other digital items are not donations.
How is asking a business to provide financial reports considered regulation? Nothing is being regulated. You even state that if charitable funds are used for something other than their expressed purposed then they will be accountable for it . . . how? How can someone be accountable for something if they're not required to, at minimum, provide regular reports on how funds are being allocated?
This doesn't have to come from the government, Kickstarter could easily add a clause that states any project funded at X number of dollars must inform donors how money is being used.
I don't think simply explaining to people that crowdfunding is a donation and not an investment will change anything. I'm pretty sure most understand that. What they don't understand is how much game/product development costs. That's where the issue is and transparent accounting would greatly help people to realize when something is underfunded or unrealistic.
Right now, someone slaps up a crowdfunding project and says, "We need X money to make this amazing idea!" And people throw money at it without any idea of whether or not the requested amount will be enough. Even the best developers can't pull magic out of their butts, running any business is expensive. There is no way to educate everyone on all matters regarding operating a business, so the next best thing is asking large projects to share their financials. They should be producing those reports anyway, so there wouldn't be additional effort on their part beyond uploading a pdf to their site and saying, "Here you go" - and if they're not creating these reports, then you can pretty much guarantee they have no clue what they're doing.
Despite this request having nothing to do with regulation, people really need to get over the idea that "regulations are bad" - some regulations are bad, others are good. Regulations are neutral, they're a tool and sometimes they function to benefit business and sometimes not, and sometimes they serve to benefit the consumer, something people rarely appreciate until they live in a place in which those regulations don't exist - like, elevators must have XYZ safety mechanism, or, children's toys are not allowed to have lead in them and if you include malware on your USB devices you will be fined and possibly shut down.
Is this a REAL problem or a perceived problem? The rate of success for Kickstarter-funded games is increasing year-over-year. It says that people are becoming more educated about the process, what's realistic, what isn't, and also saving their money for projects that have a team that can execute. Kickstarter-funded games have shipped a game in over 80% of cases, including games up until the end of 2014. Also, that includes all the games which AREN'T meant to ship yet, so that doesn't mean that 20% are not going to ship. In fact, there are very few project which out-right throw in the towel.
So what is it that increased accountability is solving, exactly? Now, SC is an exceptional case, but they raised the majority of money outside the KS campaign, so where to these rules apply? To what extent? How do you enforce them? It's a legal nightmare, really, and, honestly, I don't think that people really give a shit in the majority of cases.
Got a proper source on the "shipped a game in over 80% of cases"? Do games that released as alpha count as shipped?
To be specific, do they count Godus as being released or not?
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
Is this a REAL problem or a perceived problem? The rate of success for Kickstarter-funded games is increasing year-over-year. It says that people are becoming more educated about the process, what's realistic, what isn't, and also saving their money for projects that have a team that can execute. Kickstarter-funded games have shipped a game in over 80% of cases, including games up until the end of 2014. Also, that includes all the games which AREN'T meant to ship yet, so that doesn't mean that 20% are not going to ship. In fact, there are very few project which out-right throw in the towel.
So what is it that increased accountability is solving, exactly? Now, SC is an exceptional case, but they raised the majority of money outside the KS campaign, so where to these rules apply? To what extent? How do you enforce them? It's a legal nightmare, really, and, honestly, I don't think that people really give a shit in the majority of cases.
Got a proper source on the "shipped a game in over 80% of cases"? Do games that released as alpha count as shipped?
To be specific, do they count Godus as being released or not?
Yes, me. I've manually verified the state of each of the games myself. The spreadsheet was originally produced by evil as a hobby, attempting to support the idea that only 1/3 of games from KS ship. Feel free to have a peek.
Yes, Godus is considered to be released. It's a game. It's not the vision, but it's a game. Same way that SC will likely not be as full-featured as promised. Probably how ED didn't have all the features promised. Probably how plenty of games, outside crowdfunding, pull features. The real question is whether or not a game is delivered.
Do Alpha and Beta count? In some cases, yes. I've commented most of them, but haven't spent the time to go back and update ones already marked as delivered, either. Also, I should note that I lied, it's projects up until the end of 2013, not 2014. Also, I haven't finished updating the 2013 ones either. If I had to dig for an answer, I moved on.
Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime, that's the worst that can happen, and there are laws to protect against it. Hence all the hoopla right now CR and crew are facing.. So what more regulation is needed?
Oh I don't know... mandatory quarterly financial reports for any KS project over 100K? Too much to ask for?
Aside from the fact that I'm not a fan of over regulation on what is essentially a private affair between donor and recipient. What good would that really do? Most wouldn't know what they're looking at, secondly most wouldn't understand half the expenses in relation to a Dev studio, that would cause more confusion than we see now IMO.
Being a private business is a choice companies make, a funding source is a funding source like any other. Be it private donation private investor or public investment. You're essentially stripping a company of choice on how to do business. One that is afforded to any other company in the US as far as I am aware..
So "over regulation" is a bad thing? No shit, Sherlock. Otherwise it wouldn't be called "over." What about "under regulation?" Are you equally not a fan of that?
Apparently you buy into the corporate narrative that everything would be just hunky-dory if those evil regulators would just leave us the fuck alone. Can't blame you though since that's the core message fed to you by corporations, government and the media in your brave new manipulated world.
And please, "most wouldn't understand"? You're saying a lot there about your education system but whatever... there are enough who would understand it and could explain it in tiny twitter bite-sized language to their dimmer cousins.
Transparency is a good thing... or has your confidence about that basic fact been undermined as well?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Comments
Seriously elect this dude, his one comment on a message board was more insightful than every moron who's hit a pulpit in the USA for 16 years.
You know thats exactly how I picture Ortwin screaming and running away when presented with real lawyers who know what they are talking about
Mandatory quarterly financial reports would be fair. But also once you start a KS then you are forbidden to go and sell anything that isn't in the game and able to work. You could charge a monthly fee maybe but there has to some kind of rules setup. If you leave the KS and start to ask for money for in game items then you lose the KS money and have to pay all backers back.
Just speed thinking but something has to be setup to protect the backers. Where it has been stated they made more after the KS and the little money made from it isn't as good as the money made after. Just not right in my opinion.
Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event
4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.
http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/
Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!
I agree they are totally different CK/Gambling
there are two paths forward the industry and industry media can start policing itself, or be policed. If it shows a marked tendency to trend one way or another , the results will reflect that
"So what more regulation is needed?" This depends; as I've stated before; if an industry can police it self the regulation it gets (if any) will be "lets job grow" type. However if regulators feel the need to step in to "Fix Yo s_" things are different. In the latter case I find it likely that the "investigators" and "regulators" will be not pre-dominantly gamers, will not be all that aware of gaming, and fairly un-interested in educating themselves about gaming. They will be less interested in protecting the "industry" than in protecting commerce. A key distinction.
"Committing fraud (scamming) is already a crime" yes they are, however if Enough continue to violate it for long enough...from a legislators perspective...well I guess we need to write more. It's kind of what they do.
Also keep in mind it might not be a unilateral set of regs either, particularly if individual states/nations approach it different ways. It's not in-conceivable one ends up with a patchwork of regs some poor shlep in the future is going to have to try to thread a needle through. How would you like to be a dev write a game/marketing/ditro plan trying to meet 40+ regs in the upper 48 + whatever federal and national ones crop up. As likely as not some directly conflicting with others. At least initially till whatever impetus drove the reg rage gets distracted by something else.
This is why whiners are dangerous. In times past they were the "there oughtta be a law" people and before you know it there were rules about putting ice cream cones in your pocket on Sunday.
Just because money changes hands does not invite everyone to try to control it. It's nobody's business how people interact with each other, right? If someone wants to impose a bunch of rules on themselves, there is already a business model for that. This need some people have to dominate and control is getting to be too much.
There would be one caveat though these reports only last until the KS promises/goals etc were fulfilled, also any money earned OUTSIDE of the KS period is not subject to these reports.
I mean when you back a KS your not buying shares so don't expect any rights as if you did own some.
Someone previously, some pages back, mentioned that CIG wasn't being held accountable or had no oversight or something of that nature but this isn't entirely true.
The problem is that, if the info I saw was true, CR hold 85% shares, Ortwin Freyermouth has 10% and ER has the last 5%. Therefore technically there is oversight and someone for them to report to. It just happens to be themselves.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Nice too read some logical arguments.
So.... an honest question:
What should a company that is honestly trying to complete a crowdfunded project ethically do when the funds start to dry up?
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
Think that's what we're running circles about
We can only really apply market forces, if that isn't enough it's out of our hands honestly.
I don't know if that's a flaw or if it's just the nature of creative people like CR, Garriott, and other developers that create these amazing game worlds we play in. I wonder how many artists crap up what would have otherwise been a good painting, sculpture, or other work of art because they just went so overboard in their passion to make it the perfect masterpiece that it either never got finished or was just a big unweildy mess when it was done.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
There is always a desire to put just a bit more time, just a bit more detail, more colors here, another line there, and in the end it looks worse. I've gotten hours into a model project just to scrap it all out of frustration just because a single detail always looked wrong.
The irony being that the same attention to detail that makes a good artist is the same attention to detail that costs time and money to redo something that would have been just fine.
Being a private business is a choice companies make, a funding source is a funding source like any other. Be it private donation private investor or public investment. You're essentially stripping a company of choice on how to do business. One that is afforded to any other company in the US as far as I am aware..
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Seems to me Erin and Chris together are a good team.
Have fun
PS:
If you like space and spaceships ....and maybe you do, posting in this thread .....
Go see "The Martian". Awesome movie, stunning visuals, good actors, great quotes.
I think i have a new favorite : "I’m going to have to science the shit out of this...."
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Erin was another creative guys, that's why Digital Anvil seems to suffer similar sort of problems when they were making Freelancer and Starlancer.
With CIG it is also covered by standard federal commerce laws because people are not donating they are buying ships in an online store. So a product is sold and if that product is not delivered then it is fraud.
They have a separate section for "pledges" a.k.a. donations. The Shop is just that, an online shop where you buy virtual items not a donation.
Of cause this would go to court and the outcome is unknown but the facts are that ship sales, merchandise and other digital items are not donations.
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
- Michael Bitton
Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about."
- SEANMCAD
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I have said multiple things in my posts, i have already explained the point i was trying to get a across, ok you may of got it but others still haven't as i can see.
But if things go belly up or the game isn't to your liking don't come whining on the forum because people will go through your post history, they did it with people who where complaining about archgeage, so all these people who think chris roberts can do no wrong or fail these people will probably just get laughed at.
Please try and tell me how what i posted about Dren Utogi gave you this thought and you posted it i am confused.
When We point out we got the dang message so feel free to move on to a different argument You get like you do in the post you quoted of Dren Utogi and very like a hypocrite try to lump us all together with Dren Utogi.
How is what i posted lumping us all together ?
Plus if you are not a fanatic and don't believe everything chris roberts is saying is the truth then my posts don't apply too you.
Also someone who says omg so many times i can't take seriously, if anyone has seen the only way is essex will know what i mean. lol
Plus i have noticed why mosts of my posyts seem the same that is because when i made a comment i had to reply to different people so i was obviously explaining the same thing to different people on different occassions.
I agree with you that this project will have an impact on the crowdfunding scene.
As for CR as a project manager, well he's broken the project down into modules, so +1 on that part. AC is out, so check mark on that. We've got the whole flying in space thing down. I guess we'll see what comes of S42 this weekend.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Is this a REAL problem or a perceived problem? The rate of success for Kickstarter-funded games is increasing year-over-year. It says that people are becoming more educated about the process, what's realistic, what isn't, and also saving their money for projects that have a team that can execute. Kickstarter-funded games have shipped a game in over 80% of cases, including games up until the end of 2014. Also, that includes all the games which AREN'T meant to ship yet, so that doesn't mean that 20% are not going to ship. In fact, there are very few project which out-right throw in the towel.
So what is it that increased accountability is solving, exactly? Now, SC is an exceptional case, but they raised the majority of money outside the KS campaign, so where to these rules apply? To what extent? How do you enforce them? It's a legal nightmare, really, and, honestly, I don't think that people really give a shit in the majority of cases.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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This doesn't have to come from the government, Kickstarter could easily add a clause that states any project funded at X number of dollars must inform donors how money is being used.
I don't think simply explaining to people that crowdfunding is a donation and not an investment will change anything. I'm pretty sure most understand that. What they don't understand is how much game/product development costs. That's where the issue is and transparent accounting would greatly help people to realize when something is underfunded or unrealistic.
Right now, someone slaps up a crowdfunding project and says, "We need X money to make this amazing idea!" And people throw money at it without any idea of whether or not the requested amount will be enough. Even the best developers can't pull magic out of their butts, running any business is expensive. There is no way to educate everyone on all matters regarding operating a business, so the next best thing is asking large projects to share their financials. They should be producing those reports anyway, so there wouldn't be additional effort on their part beyond uploading a pdf to their site and saying, "Here you go" - and if they're not creating these reports, then you can pretty much guarantee they have no clue what they're doing.
Despite this request having nothing to do with regulation, people really need to get over the idea that "regulations are bad" - some regulations are bad, others are good. Regulations are neutral, they're a tool and sometimes they function to benefit business and sometimes not, and sometimes they serve to benefit the consumer, something people rarely appreciate until they live in a place in which those regulations don't exist - like, elevators must have XYZ safety mechanism, or, children's toys are not allowed to have lead in them and if you include malware on your USB devices you will be fined and possibly shut down.
To be specific, do they count Godus as being released or not?
Yes, me. I've manually verified the state of each of the games myself. The spreadsheet was originally produced by evil as a hobby, attempting to support the idea that only 1/3 of games from KS ship. Feel free to have a peek.
Yes, Godus is considered to be released. It's a game. It's not the vision, but it's a game. Same way that SC will likely not be as full-featured as promised. Probably how ED didn't have all the features promised. Probably how plenty of games, outside crowdfunding, pull features. The real question is whether or not a game is delivered.
Do Alpha and Beta count? In some cases, yes. I've commented most of them, but haven't spent the time to go back and update ones already marked as delivered, either. Also, I should note that I lied, it's projects up until the end of 2013, not 2014. Also, I haven't finished updating the 2013 ones either. If I had to dig for an answer, I moved on.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Apparently you buy into the corporate narrative that everything would be just hunky-dory if those evil regulators would just leave us the fuck alone. Can't blame you though since that's the core message fed to you by corporations, government and the media in your brave new manipulated world.
And please, "most wouldn't understand"? You're saying a lot there about your education system but whatever... there are enough who would understand it and could explain it in tiny twitter bite-sized language to their dimmer cousins.
Transparency is a good thing... or has your confidence about that basic fact been undermined as well?
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED