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Will Blizzard save WoW with Legions?

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  • NukeGamerNukeGamer Member, AMA Guest UncommonPosts: 309
    edited September 2015
    danwest58 said:
    Albatroes said:
    Horusra said:
    danwest58 said:
    JakeSim said:
    danwest58 said:
    WOW will not be saved at all.  They have chosen to go with the ultra casual players because they think that the ultra casual players is their best market.  Yet 6 years of going with this crowded has failed.  So why not tack on 2 more years of this.  
    Really? I always thought of FFXIV as a casual players paradise. Maybe they both are.
    Yes and no, to FFXIV. Most of the content can be don casually. But the raids are far from casual.
    We can also add that FFXIV requires you to do the boss mechanics unlike WOW where you can stand in fire and tunnel the boss and blame the healer if you die.  In FFXIV if you dont get out of shit consistently you die and you cannot blame the healer because 1 shot mechanics are not the healers fault.  WOW does not want 1 shot mechanics people more people would leave the game.  Just look at Cata.  

    Guess that is why people are leaving cause the Hellfire raids have one shots and death to fire if you stand in it....but lets go back to bashing WoW without knowing the game.
    I wouldn't say he doesn't know the game, he just does LFR probably which doesn't require any skill tbh.

    Edit 

    FFXIV Dungeons are also better than any dungeon WOW has put out since Cata.  Also FFXIV Dungeons are better than anything in WOTLK.  Cata at least had some good Dungeons, and everything Vanilla WOW or TBC is good stuff.  You know what happened during WOD beta.   They nerfed the Dungeons from where you couldn't ignore mechanics to Dungeons being useless after the first run.  At least in FFXIV the Dungeons always will be worth something.
    That's a really nice opinion you have there...now me and a lot of people would disagree with and I would also like to know why are you complaining about a video game you don't play anymore?  Or wait nobody talks about ffxiv because it's sooooo awesome right? 
  • NukeGamerNukeGamer Member, AMA Guest UncommonPosts: 309
    Kopogero said:

    If I was running WOW these are the key things I would be changing.

    1. Every 3 months deliver a raid with 7 bosses featuring normal/heroic modes, totalling 4 raid dungeons in a year.These raids will also have achievements offering a title, a mount from heroic achievements and one rare drop mount from last boss.

    2. Allow players to have optional 10 or 20 sized raids. It was already nightmerish to depend and wait on 9 other players to show up per raid night. 19? No thx.

    3. PvP seasons lasting equally as long as a current raid, 3 months.

    4. Add some events or something to keep players playing off raid schedule.

    5. Finally, focus as much as I can on dropping the sub cost and expansion fee to stay competitive with rest of the products with my outdated one that promices polish, quality over modern engines with far awesome graphics, combat.

    This is the ONLY thing that can bring me back in 2016 over everything else that's coming.

    You should really try to follow up on a game you are going to comment on. 

    1) That's about how the raids were released in WoD

    2) Again WoW already has Flex raids 

    3) check

    4) events?  Again check....   http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/18985406/patch-62-preview-bonus-events-and-adventure-guide-5-7-2015

    5) Competive?  Are you kidding try google every mmorpg out today is trying to compete with wow and failing.  Wow this could be the most fail post I've ever read. 
  • ShadoedShadoed Member UncommonPosts: 1,459
    mark2123 said:
    I used to be really into WoW and then with the last couple of expansions, I headed towards the casual group, partly because real life stuff is busy and partly because the game didn't grip me.

    You'd have to be a very narrow-minded Blizzard exec to not figure out where it's all going wrong as people are quick to point out the WoW failings and many are aligned with the issues.

    So, will Blizzard take things back a few notches with Legions, to a time and type of game that people enjoyed more or are they just doing their thing, milking the cow until it's dead?

    If Legions isn't the big improvement on things that the game needs, then I think the number of subscriptions will be decimated to the point they'll end up going F2P and rely on the cash shop to fund their mini patches.
    I haven't read all of the replies on this thread, so i apologise if i am going over ground already covered but you are making a huge assumption here that the whole player base of WoW has the same tastes as you which is a hell of an assumption to make.

    People will point out the faults of games as it doesn't suit their play style, hell, we have had people on this forum suggest that the game is almost re-written from the ground up to suit their play style and tastes for jazzy graphics and sweeping vista's so forums aren't really the place to gather info on what is best for the game on the whole.

    Personally i have always maintained that there is a core of players standing at around the 3 mill mark that has been around on and off since day one and never moved apart from maybe the odd break from time to time, of which i am one (without the breaks) and i enjoy the core of the game for what it is. I have always seen expansions as peripheral to the core game and i think that is what has kept me around for so long. When i say core, i mean the basics like exploration, questing, levelling, crafting, collecting, some light PvP, dungeons and maybe even the odd raid from time to time. I am also a little old fashioned in that i will make my own entertainment in the game, i don't expect Blizzard to provide everything for me, they just provide the playground for me to use my imagination which i think is so lacking in so many gamers these days.

    I can't see that the game needs 'saving' at the moment but given it's age you would expect a natural drop off over time and eventually a move away alltogether, but i can't see that being any time too soon.

    It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.

  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,175
    edited October 2015
    Shadoed said:
    mark2123 said:
    <snip> you are making a huge assumption here that the whole player base of WoW has the same tastes as you which is a hell of an assumption to make.
    <snip>

    Personally i have always maintained that there is a core of players standing at around the 3 mill mark that has been around on and off since day one and never moved apart from maybe the odd break from
    <snip>

    I can't see that the game needs 'saving' at the moment but given it's age you would expect a natural drop off over time and eventually a move away alltogether, but i can't see that being any time too soon.
    You are making the same assumption that you level at mark2123 - that there is a core of (c. 3M) people like you who have never moved on.  We just don't know. Some sure but 3M would imply a huge percentage of the initial playerbase; unlikely imo.

    What we expect to find out in November is what the number of subs at the end of Sept was. Like you and others I am of the opinion that it doesn't need "saving" but - subconsciously maybe - I "took for granted" that subs will remain "significant" - say around 4M. A substantial drop but still significant.

    Having read a lot of suggestions of around 3M  - well if the drop is 2M+ then yeah. 

    Is there a core of players? Probably. At what point though are global subs so spread out that there is "no one" around - resulting in more people leaving which feeds the decline? Which will drive the question: what of Q4?
    Post edited by gervaise1 on
  • ArthasmArthasm Member UncommonPosts: 781
    edited October 2015
    After 5-6 years my guild finally quit raiding. Seems that raiders actually do other stuffs than raiding. There's nothing left to do if you're not raider. In MoP/Cata/Wotlk you had still a lot of things to keep you in game. In WoD there's only facebook game. If they continue this bullshit in Legion, I don't think it will save game (for me and friends).
  • mark2123mark2123 Member UncommonPosts: 450
    Shadoed said:
    mark2123 said:
    I used to be really into WoW and then with the last couple of expansions, I headed towards the casual group, partly because real life stuff is busy and partly because the game didn't grip me.

    You'd have to be a very narrow-minded Blizzard exec to not figure out where it's all going wrong as people are quick to point out the WoW failings and many are aligned with the issues.

    So, will Blizzard take things back a few notches with Legions, to a time and type of game that people enjoyed more or are they just doing their thing, milking the cow until it's dead?

    If Legions isn't the big improvement on things that the game needs, then I think the number of subscriptions will be decimated to the point they'll end up going F2P and rely on the cash shop to fund their mini patches.
    I haven't read all of the replies on this thread, so i apologise if i am going over ground already covered but you are making a huge assumption here that the whole player base of WoW has the same tastes as you which is a hell of an assumption to make.

    People will point out the faults of games as it doesn't suit their play style, hell, we have had people on this forum suggest that the game is almost re-written from the ground up to suit their play style and tastes for jazzy graphics and sweeping vista's so forums aren't really the place to gather info on what is best for the game on the whole.

    Personally i have always maintained that there is a core of players standing at around the 3 mill mark that has been around on and off since day one and never moved apart from maybe the odd break from time to time, of which i am one (without the breaks) and i enjoy the core of the game for what it is. I have always seen expansions as peripheral to the core game and i think that is what has kept me around for so long. When i say core, i mean the basics like exploration, questing, levelling, crafting, collecting, some light PvP, dungeons and maybe even the odd raid from time to time. I am also a little old fashioned in that i will make my own entertainment in the game, i don't expect Blizzard to provide everything for me, they just provide the playground for me to use my imagination which i think is so lacking in so many gamers these days.

    I can't see that the game needs 'saving' at the moment but given it's age you would expect a natural drop off over time and eventually a move away alltogether, but i can't see that being any time too soon.
    If the game had 12m happy players at one point, then they could have continued to provide a standard of content that kept a higher percentage of them interested than what they are achieving right now - a huge loss of numbers to date.  If you were in an aircraft that, every few minutes, had less altitude than the previous minute and it was not your intention (as the pilot) then you would say it needs saving.  Why does a drop in numbers month on month not require drastic action?  It's money going down the drain for a big company everytime someone quits.  Do you honestly think they are happy with that?  I'd ask you to run a business and get x number of sale and be happy to see people stop buying into your brand.  It's not acceptable to Blizzard to lose the big numbers, why, because they are a business, and businesses exist to make money.

    Those of you arguing that everything is ok are totally missing the business aspect.  If Blizzard hadn't made poor decisions, many of those that left would be still playing - why quit if you are happy with the game?  You wouldn't quit would you if you were still enjoying it?

    Blizzard needs to pull it's finger out and start investing more of their lovely subs whilst they still have them, as money makes money and if they get it right, then the least they can do is retain what they have before the plane crashes.  They have loads of staff, loads of overhead and loads of assets, IT etc - losing millions of £$ a month is not acceptable to them.

    Anyhow Shadoed, you didn't like me making an assumption, so how come you know what the core amount  of subs Blizzard would be happy with i.e. 3m as you state?  Fact or assumption?
  • whisperwyndwhisperwynd Member UncommonPosts: 1,668
    Been said before but...

    Didn't realize WoW needed saving.
  • StevonStevon Member UncommonPosts: 218
    mark2123 said:
    I used to be really into WoW and then with the last couple of expansions, I headed towards the casual group, partly because real life stuff is busy and partly because the game didn't grip me.

    You'd have to be a very narrow-minded Blizzard exec to not figure out where it's all going wrong as people are quick to point out the WoW failings and many are aligned with the issues.

    So, will Blizzard take things back a few notches with Legions, to a time and type of game that people enjoyed more or are they just doing their thing, milking the cow until it's dead?

    If Legions isn't the big improvement on things that the game needs, then I think the number of subscriptions will be decimated to the point they'll end up going F2P and rely on the cash shop to fund their mini patches.
    Sigh.   Come on now.  Are you really this sensless?   WoW is over 10 years old.   Wtf does "Save" have anything to do with it?  It's a dated game.  And as for "saving" it still has millions of active subscribers.

    Use your head.   It doesn't need "saving" it needs replaced and eventually Blizzard will launch an alternative.

    The only thing substantial that Blizzard can do would be a new game.
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 6,997
    I'd imagine it has an increase then right back to where it was before...Still thriving but not anywhere near where it was.....
  • KothosesKothoses Member UncommonPosts: 880
    edited October 2015
    Wow doesnt need saving, its easy to forget how stupidly profitable it still is for Blizzard even with subs down.  Subs are NOT the bulk of revenue from wow to start with.  Additionally the subs wow loses in its cycles are still leaving a phenomenal amount of active players behind.

    While I am for all intents and purposes done with wow bar curiosity it is beyond rational to say it needs saving.  They are happy with their cycle, they are happy with the churn of players in and out within those cycles and it is still making them huge wads of cash.

    Promoting thought a new Gaming video blog http://www.youtube.com/user/quinnthalas discussing games, gamers and the internet with gameplay footage as background.

  • MukeMuke Member RarePosts: 2,614
    NukeGamer said:

    That's a really nice opinion you have there...now me and a lot of people would disagree with and I would also like to know why are you complaining about a video game you don't play anymore?  Or wait nobody talks about ffxiv because it's sooooo awesome right? 
    The fact that ppl keep on playing WoW because they are simply addicted to it does not mean it's a good game, does it?

    Like saying crack is sooooo good because so many use it.

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • RzepRzep Member UncommonPosts: 767
    If Blizzard wanted to save WoW they could do it easily. Regular content patches, refocus on PvP, faster Expansion development, faster development. They have money, they just refuse to spend it on WoW. 
  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,003
    Everyone said warlords of draenor would save wow after mists of pandaria. The hype for WoD brought them back to 10M, the expansion itself made them drop even further. Its pretty obvious that if they make the same sort of small changes they will continue losing customers and they would have to make something drastic to change it.

    However, when companies make drastic changes it usually ends up killing it for good. The only way to make drastic changes is by alienating the fans that still remain loyal in the hope that they can attract customers that already gave up on WoW. It usually fail.

    The other option is to make much more content, either you favor quantity over quality or you hire more people which means costs skyrockets. Quantity over quality usually is a bad idea, and quantity at higher costs usually means lower profits.

    What blizzard is doing right now is becoming more diverse as a company. Instead of relying on just WoW they have d3, sc2, hearthstone, heroes of the storm and soon overwatch. Blizzard is far less vulnerable than they were 5 years ago and most likely is more profitable than they were when WoW had 13.8M subscribers.

    Sometimes the slow death of your old moneymaker isn't such a bad thing after all.
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • VolgoreVolgore Member EpicPosts: 3,872
    No, they won't and they couldn't even if they wanted to. And i'm glad for that.

    image
  • AdoniAdoni Member UncommonPosts: 384
    I've played WoW since it came out. I have the collector's edition for WoW and all the exp packs. This new exp pack was just the nail in the coffin for me, there is nothing about it that interest me in playing anymore. I've moved on to a couple other online games, and single player games. 

    image
  • NukeGamerNukeGamer Member, AMA Guest UncommonPosts: 309
    edited October 2015
    Muke said:
    NukeGamer said:

    That's a really nice opinion you have there...now me and a lot of people would disagree with and I would also like to know why are you complaining about a video game you don't play anymore?  Or wait nobody talks about ffxiv because it's sooooo awesome right? 
    The fact that ppl keep on playing WoW because they are simply addicted to it does not mean it's a good game, does it?

    Like saying crack is sooooo good because so many use it.
    What an ignorant analogy...

    clearly desperation to bash a video game has reached new level when you have to resort to garbage like this.
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,175
    Shaigh said:
    <snip>
    The other option is to make much more content, either you favor quantity over quality or you hire more people which means costs skyrockets. Quantity over quality usually is a bad idea, and quantity at higher costs usually means lower profits.
    Key paragraph.

    After vanilla launched Blizzard released a major content patch every 2 months for 2 years; 12 patches. AND then they released BC. They made content patches and an expansion at the same time!

    Blizzard could spend more - on staff - produce more content thereby increasing sub retention = more revenue to offset the cost of the extra staff. And you could crunch numbers to calculate the break even point.

    There is a more fundamental question however. BC was a paid expansion - to offset the cost of the extra staff. WoD was a paid expansion - to offset ... what extra staff? What is the sub paying for?

    What struck me, when Blizzard trumpeted their doubling of staff from c. 125 to c. 250 was how few staff they had working on WoW. 125! (Bungie had over 540 when it released Destiny - with no plans to cut back; reduced their AoC staff from 240 to c. 120 about 10 months after launch but still produced content patches; Vanguard around 150-200 reported etc. had nearly 200.) 

    Blizzard - presumably - cut staff to increase profitability (post-buyout maybe)? Would they have been better retaining 100 staff @ extra $15M say; would they have kept 1M more subs a month? Or would they simply stay away knowing that they would get any new content when they resubbed?

    TESO will release another content "expansion" next retained; there are posts expressing how quickly it is coming. Simple answer: no content, no money. Destiny, Sims, BF, CKII and many other games same deal: no content, no money. Now whether a DLC is worth the price can be debated but it pales into insignificance against the question: what is WoW's sub paying for.

     
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,823
    edited October 2015
    I think they'll probably do what ESO and SWTOR are doing.  More releases of dlc updates story driven, to keep players logging in and subscribed.  Continuing chapters.

    I think the sub is paying for social contact.  WoW's become a ten year old social club.  They really should start their old version of Facebook integrated into the game.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,003
    gervaise1 said:
    Shaigh said:
    <snip>
    The other option is to make much more content, either you favor quantity over quality or you hire more people which means costs skyrockets. Quantity over quality usually is a bad idea, and quantity at higher costs usually means lower profits.
    Key paragraph.

    After vanilla launched Blizzard released a major content patch every 2 months for 2 years; 12 patches. AND then they released BC. They made content patches and an expansion at the same time!

    Blizzard could spend more - on staff - produce more content thereby increasing sub retention = more revenue to offset the cost of the extra staff. And you could crunch numbers to calculate the break even point.

    There is a more fundamental question however. BC was a paid expansion - to offset the cost of the extra staff. WoD was a paid expansion - to offset ... what extra staff? What is the sub paying for?

    What struck me, when Blizzard trumpeted their doubling of staff from c. 125 to c. 250 was how few staff they had working on WoW. 125! (Bungie had over 540 when it released Destiny - with no plans to cut back; reduced their AoC staff from 240 to c. 120 about 10 months after launch but still produced content patches; Vanguard around 150-200 reported etc. had nearly 200.) 

    Blizzard - presumably - cut staff to increase profitability (post-buyout maybe)? Would they have been better retaining 100 staff @ extra $15M say; would they have kept 1M more subs a month? Or would they simply stay away knowing that they would get any new content when they resubbed?

    TESO will release another content "expansion" next retained; there are posts expressing how quickly it is coming. Simple answer: no content, no money. Destiny, Sims, BF, CKII and many other games same deal: no content, no money. Now whether a DLC is worth the price can be debated but it pales into insignificance against the question: what is WoW's sub paying for.

     
    WoW was paying for the failed project titan, just like all successful games ends up paying for future investment in games. 

    When it comes to increasing staff the problem usually comes down to a shortage of key personnel, just hiring more people doesn't automatically mean more content. Having some designers assigned to different projects certainly doesn't help.

    However, given the financial power they definitely had the money to hire additional senior developers and as a company they would have benefited from it. 
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • MikehaMikeha Member EpicPosts: 8,907
    There is no saving WoW. The game is dying because its old and outdated. Its the life cycle of every mmo.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Been said before but...

    Didn't realize WoW needed saving.
    Well, it depends on what you mean. It probably do need saving from losing the top MMO position but then again while that would be rather annoying to Activision it surely isn't a huge thing to it's players.

    Wow certainly hasn't been doing great since the last expansion released, I think we can agree on that at least. But I think it would need 2 more expansions with the same "quality" that WoD have to actually warrant "saving".

    But it do need better expansions that MoP and WoD, to me it feels like Activision decided that they just would milk the game dry without providing adequate funding for expansions and patches as the game had earlier. And it wouldn't hurt at all to get Kaplan back at the helm either, the game started to loose subs pretty soon after he left.
  • VolgoreVolgore Member EpicPosts: 3,872
    gervaise1 said:
    Shaigh said:
    <snip>
    The other option is to make much more content, either you favor quantity over quality or you hire more people which means costs skyrockets. Quantity over quality usually is a bad idea, and quantity at higher costs usually means lower profits.
    Key paragraph.

    After vanilla launched Blizzard released a major content patch every 2 months for 2 years; 12 patches. AND then they released BC. They made content patches and an expansion at the same time!

    Blizzard could spend more - on staff - produce more content thereby increasing sub retention = more revenue to offset the cost of the extra staff. And you could crunch numbers to calculate the break even point.

    There is a more fundamental question however. BC was a paid expansion - to offset the cost of the extra staff. WoD was a paid expansion - to offset ... what extra staff? What is the sub paying for?

    What struck me, when Blizzard trumpeted their doubling of staff from c. 125 to c. 250 was how few staff they had working on WoW. 125! (Bungie had over 540 when it released Destiny - with no plans to cut back; reduced their AoC staff from 240 to c. 120 about 10 months after launch but still produced content patches; Vanguard around 150-200 reported etc. had nearly 200.) 

    Blizzard - presumably - cut staff to increase profitability (post-buyout maybe)? Would they have been better retaining 100 staff @ extra $15M say; would they have kept 1M more subs a month? Or would they simply stay away knowing that they would get any new content when they resubbed?

    TESO will release another content "expansion" next retained; there are posts expressing how quickly it is coming. Simple answer: no content, no money. Destiny, Sims, BF, CKII and many other games same deal: no content, no money. Now whether a DLC is worth the price can be debated but it pales into insignificance against the question: what is WoW's sub paying for.

     
    Saving WoW is not only about the amount of content Blizzard puts out, but also it's quality.
    They did always fail to reach the goal they proclaimed 4 addons ago, which was to "release one addon per year" or similar. But the uproar was also about how uninspired, lackluster and to an extend far off from what once was a "World Of Warcraft" alot of the released content was.

    Even with a team of 500 people they can't make up for how out of touch they are with how he game originally felt to it's players.

    image
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Volgore said:
    Saving WoW is not only about the amount of content Blizzard puts out, but also it's quality.
    They did always fail to reach the goal they proclaimed 4 addons ago, which was to "release one addon per year" or similar. But the uproar was also about how uninspired, lackluster and to an extend far off from what once was a "World Of Warcraft" alot of the released content was.

    Even with a team of 500 people they can't make up for how out of touch they are with how he game originally felt to it's players.
    Well, quality do trump quantity and I doubt anyone would prefer a new crap expansion every 9 months to a great expansion every 3 years.

    I think Wows problem is more to motivate the players to stay. They seems to have gotten the silly idea that some Facebook game styled content would work, but people do play MMOs to adventure and nothing else. Sure, gaining loot is also nice, particularly if it is loot that few other players have. 

    Wow should put more focus on letting the players explore dangerous forrests, ruined cites, dungeons and such instead. Take a look on what made the game big from the beginning.

    Too many expansions and raises in levelcaps tend to eventually make a MMO worse sadly, maybe Blizz actually were on the right track with Cata and should remake the game. Everquest had the same problem for many years.
  • AethaerynAethaeryn Member RarePosts: 3,008
    For me the problem with WOW was never any mechanics that changed bu rather the `theme`of the game.  It is almost like it suffered from a ``where now`type of thing.  They started with a fairly basic fantasy setting where the player was doing mundane things. . then they had to keep escalating the ÈPICNESS!  The shoulder armour got huge. . and glowy!  We started fighting demons and taking out the Litch king. . then. . well then. . we are having extra demensional battles. . and portals. .etc.  I know it is part of the Warcraft lore. . but they lost me when I could ride a truly rediculous ghostly flying horse mount.  I don`t mind the game changes. . I hate the setting changes.  I wish they had build a little more laterally.  Maybe they didn`t see the continued success coming.  

    Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!

  • SephirosoSephiroso Member RarePosts: 2,019
    Arthasm said:
     There's nothing left to do if you're not raider.
    Achievement runs. Pet Battles. Collection Runs(mounts/legendaries/transmog/etc). Farming runs to make gold. CM dungeons(best transmog). Events going on almost non-stop.

    gtfo with that "nothing left to do" bullshit.

    image
    Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

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