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  • aRtFuLThinGaRtFuLThinG Member UncommonPosts: 1,377
    reeereee said:
    Nice find.  That actually explains everything.  Lisa appears to be a somewhat less sympathetic figure in this whole mes than I had originally though.  She challenged Dancy to build an MMO as cheap as humanly possible and thus Pathfinder Online was born.
    I don't think that explains anything at all. CEO always challenges people to do things for less money or economical approach, that's their job.

    What Dancey should've done is reject that outright and said back to her by doing that the chance of success is very low (which it is) and if she wants to go that route she'll need to find someone else... kinda like what General Colin Powell did when warning the Older President Bush about going into Iraq first time without sufficient force. That's sensible. Dancey wasn't.

    Jacxolope said:
    Its in poor taste.
    I can't see how it is personally, since Lisa is the CEO of Paizo not Goblinworks originally. She didn't even have much to do with the project originally besides giving them the license.

    People should offended if Dancey went on vocation or spending spree or something, that would definitely have been poor taste.

  • BluddwolfBluddwolf Member UncommonPosts: 355
    Ryan Dancey was fired, so any FUBAR had to have rested in his hands.  

    It it was his decision to try to make a functional game on a shoe-string budget.  Quite honestly, where Lisa Stevens erred was in not asking to right questions or not trusting her first admitted instinct, and placed trust in Ryan that he could pull it off.

    it clearly, was proven to be a bad gamble.

    Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,062

    I can't see how it is personally, since Lisa is the CEO of Paizo not Goblinworks originally. She didn't even have much to do with the project originally besides giving them the license.


    Bluddwolf said:
    Ryan Dancey was fired, so any FUBAR had to have rested in his hands.  


    So who fired him if the only involvement Lisa had was "giving them the license"?

    I'm pretty sure she was involved and even used to have some sort of regular Fireside Chat where she would talk to the players about all the plans for the game.  She also regularly played. It's not like she was totally disconnected.

    I would say it was in poor taste for 2 reasons:

    1. Just fired the whole staff except for 3 people a month ago
    2. As far as I know they left players hanging about whether the server would even still be running as of Oct 1st.  Some of these folks spent thousands of dollars and have more than a year worth of prepaid time left...


    Not saying it's the worst thing anyone has ever done.  I'm just pointing out that it appears to be insensitive on two fronts.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

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  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,062
    caldeathe said:


    Part of the confusion is speculation. We still don't know of Ryan was fired. He may-or-may-not have deserved it, if he was, but we don't know. One of the players who knows him outside of gaming says that he got out of surgery a couple of weeks ago, but wouldn't say any more than that.

    Paizo and/or Lisa was definitely one of the primary investors (She said in one of the chats, in response to a question about it turning into a murder sim, that between her and Ryan they owned more than 50% of the company, and would shut it down before they'd let that happen). What Paizo was not doing (before August) was taking an active role in running Goblinworks. Paizo wasn't "involved" to any great extent (in the beginning), but it was definitely a major funder.

    Lisa was originally going to have virtually no involvement in GW, and it sounded in early chats (yes, speculation) like she was planning to retire from Paizo months ago and do other things. Instead, this spring, she retired from Paizo and spent the last six months working without pay to try to salvage GW.

    I'm not sure that telling someone they aren't entitled to two weeks off after working for free for six months and watching between a few hundred thousand and a million or more of their money go up in smoke (then being put at the last minute in a position of running a failing venture and telling a dozen or more people you can't pay them any more) is really a reasonable basis for calling someone insensitive.
    Right, even after the same pattern of behavior helped lead GW and PFO right off the cliff to oblivion, still finding ways to help defend the company.

    Let's just agree that we BOTH hope this thing limps along for a few more months... for dramatically different reasons.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] UncommonPosts: 0
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  • reeereeereeereee Member UncommonPosts: 1,636
    reeereee said:
    Nice find.  That actually explains everything.  Lisa appears to be a somewhat less sympathetic figure in this whole mes than I had originally though.  She challenged Dancy to build an MMO as cheap as humanly possible and thus Pathfinder Online was born.
    I don't think that explains anything at all. CEO always challenges people to do things for less money or economical approach, that's their job.

    What Dancey should've done is reject that outright and said back to her by doing that the chance of success is very low (which it is) and if she wants to go that route she'll need to find someone else... kinda like what General Colin Powell did when warning the Older President Bush about going into Iraq first time without sufficient force. That's sensible. Dancey wasn't.

    Yeah... so if I challenge a couple of neighborhood kids to build me a mansion for $5,000 and all I have to show for it a month later when the money runs out is a handful of boards sticking out of the ground it's not my fault at all?

    There's no expectation for the CEO to be even mildly informed on the area she's moving into?

    There is no expectation for the CEO to know whether Dancy is competent to deliver what he says he can?
  • AndiusMeuridiarAndiusMeuridiar Member UncommonPosts: 91
    Bluddwolf said:
    Brenics said:
    Burntvet said:
    Kopogero said:
    LOL, how can someone be shut down that was never "launched" / "released"
    Because according to Dancey, the game was not in alpha/beta and they were charging box+sub+cash shop for it, despite the fact that the game was half finished at best. (Nevermind that it had practically nothing to do with the IP on which it was based.)
    Which makes this sad how developers can steal money and it seems get away with it. In the real world if we would do this we would be locked up for theft.
    The developer(s), whether you consider that Goblin Works, Ryan Dancey, Paizo, Lisa Stevens or all of them collectively, have not "gotten away with it".  

    They have all all paid a price to their credibility in the PC gaming market, or will if they try to dip back in with a new product (regardless of genre).  

    PFO might actually become the poster child for what not to do, and it may severely hurt future kick starters.  

    PFO is a footnote on the Kickstarter story. Most sandbox MMO players haven't even heard of it and it's failure/success meant little to the MMO community.

    Star Citizen is the headline. The amount of it's promises it delivers on will determine how much people trust Kickstarters going into the future.
  • JacxolopeJacxolope Member UncommonPosts: 1,140
    edited October 2015
    Bluddwolf said:
    Brenics said:
    Burntvet said:
    Kopogero said:
    LOL, how can someone be shut down that was never "launched" / "released"
    Because according to Dancey, the game was not in alpha/beta and they were charging box+sub+cash shop for it, despite the fact that the game was half finished at best. (Nevermind that it had practically nothing to do with the IP on which it was based.)
    Which makes this sad how developers can steal money and it seems get away with it. In the real world if we would do this we would be locked up for theft.
    The developer(s), whether you consider that Goblin Works, Ryan Dancey, Paizo, Lisa Stevens or all of them collectively, have not "gotten away with it".  

    They have all all paid a price to their credibility in the PC gaming market, or will if they try to dip back in with a new product (regardless of genre).  

    PFO might actually become the poster child for what not to do, and it may severely hurt future kick starters.  

    PFO is a footnote on the Kickstarter story. Most sandbox MMO players haven't even heard of it and it's failure/success meant little to the MMO community.

    Star Citizen is the headline. The amount of it's promises it delivers on will determine how much people trust Kickstarters going into the future.
    Its all relevant imho.

    From the smallest game to the largest.

    Concerning mmorpgs, Kickstart has been a giant black hole filled with empty promises and shady dealings with nothing of any substance for an ungodly amount of money.

    PFO is another in a string of companies who have jumped on the crowdfunding bandwagon, took little to no risk for themselves, produce nothing or very little and then give the 'ol "oops, we tried" to the 'fans' who embrace them with open arms and "its okay..." while writing off thousands of their hard earned dollars- This only encourages real scammers who see how you can sell someone a dream., bilk them for thousands, enrich yourself, walk away with no consequences AND even be defended by the very people you duped. 

    Thanks to guys like Slapshot here, who take the time to research projects and call things out- And thanks to mmorpg.com for seeming to treat these things with some fairness now- Companies know that there is now a chance for some problems when they  start acting shady.  They might end up with Slappy on their ass =P

    Now we need the damn backers who get screwed to start demanding answers and not defending things that are indefensible. YOU are making matters worse for your fellow gamers when next company that comes along with  dream and a good  pitch  go in knowing that nobody ever demands any accountability for things in crowdfunding. Thts not a good incentive to give folks we are throwing money at.

    Stop it.

    EDIT- mmorpg.com should seriously think about employing slappy- You guys obviously like him and he also has respect in other circles and is a credible dude. I know its off topic but... Just sayin
    Post edited by Jacxolope on
  • ThebeastttThebeasttt Member RarePosts: 1,130
    No game deserves to fail more then Pathfinder Online. How Lisa Stevens lets this game turn into a pvp crapshoot that has nothing to do with Pathfinder is beyond me. To put it in Paizo terms, this game is the 4th edition of the MMO world.....
  • AndiusMeuridiarAndiusMeuridiar Member UncommonPosts: 91
    edited October 2015
    Nobody who knows anything about me would claim I haven't held Goblinworks, Paizo, and Ryan Dancey extremely accountable for the piece of trash they have delivered us.

    However I am still a fan of kickstarters/crowd funding. My own mistake in backing Pathfinder Online was overestimating the capabilities of this team to deliver a quality product. Pathfinder Online was a clear and total failure [mod edit] but I still believe in other titles like Star Citizen and Crowfall.

    I think for me, the experience of Pathfinder Online has helped temper my expectations on how much quality a title can deliver how quickly. It's greatly lowered the bar of my expectations for other Crowdfunded titles to a much more realistic level.

    Ultimately the main gaming industry has failed to deliver an MMO that varies greatly from WoW in years though. Something that THEY need to be held accountable for. So if we see a playable/fun (By the standards of anyone other than deluded fanboys) MMO out of Artcraft or Cloud Imperium sometime during the next three years that differs greatly from the WoW model I'll personally have what I am backing them for out of it. Even if we're still waiting on a lot of the stretch goals for a long time.
    Post edited by Amana on
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