So from Laced and Jcrg99's responses I am seeing no evidence from the "SC is a scam" camp. (And Jc, Smart's blogs aren't evidence especially after he's been caught in several lies)
So, from the pro-SC crowd? Any evidence that the accusations are false (aside from the FTC investigation being proven false and Smart's blogs being wildly inconsistent on his 'facts')?
Also Laced did make a fair point. Though CIG does not LEGALLY have to account for their spending to the backers, what does it hurt for them to do so?
I'll lay my cards on the table here, I lean more towards Derek being full of shit in this whole thing due to his past and the falsehoods he has already been caught in; however I do not see how CIG sharing even an aridged version of their spending or just a projection of future costs on the project to give backers an idea of where things stand as being a bad thing.
Their staff is quoted as being: "We have four development studios: Los Angeles, Austin, Wilmslow, UK and Frankfurt, Germany. Our internal headcount has gone from five at the end of 2012 to 59 at the end of 2013 to 183 at the end of 2014 and to 255 now. That’s some pretty huge growth. The turnover at CIG is no more or less than it was at Origin, EA, Digital Anvil or Microsoft when I was making games there."
So if we were to take these numbers into consideration, starting with the end of 2012 and assuming the year-end number was that of the entire year and using an average salary of $70,000 annually, plus a 40% lkabor burden (which should be conservative). 2013 - $6 million burned 2014 - $18 million burned 2015 - $25 million burned
So in the even that everything stays flat from here on out, that would put it at $100 million burned this time in 2017. If it continues at the current rate experienced between 2014 & 2015 then the numbers would look like this: 2016 - $35 million burned 2017 - $48.5 million burned
So I think that what this shows is that it's much less of a scam and much more of a case of sustainability. I'm not speaking for the entire Pro-SC Camp, but what I'm saying is that SC will either fail or succeed. I'd much rather see the later, but if it fails, I'd rather see it fail on it's own and suffer whatever consequences come afterwards, rather than have to deal with bullshit had have plausible excuses as to why they weren't able to deliver (because of the Internet or people putting strain on their ability to deliver, etc). Honestly, I think that most of the people pounding their canes on the ground are people who don't even have vested interest in the project. Either that or people who have put money in just so they feel like they have a right to whine and bitch.
1) I want to do the lets quote/requote thing,
2) You made up allot of numbers and used allot of assumptions.
Derek Smart never did and he was the one leading this little 'accountability' crusade. He spends hours writing and arguing on the internet (when that time could be used to fix his mess of a 'game') and after all that never took the two minutes to file the actual FTC complaint.
He is totally full of shit!
Derek Smart never did what? He filed actual FTC Complaint too. You and the people misinforming the facts are full of shit.
Prove it then. Where is his official FTC complaint?
Name the Federal statute then. The only Federal case that keeps getting repeated ended up settling out of court with no admission of guilt and nothing paid back!
"Under the settlement order, Chevalier is prohibited from making misrepresentations about any crowdfunding campaign and from failing to honor stated refund policies. He is also barred from disclosing or otherwise benefiting from customers’ personal information, and failing to dispose of such information properly. The order imposes a $111,793.71 judgment that will be suspended due to Chevalier’s inability to pay. The full amount will become due immediately if he is found to have misrepresented his financial condition."
Stop to lie.
And here's more, directly from FTC (in the context that "doom" means they going into the throats and opening complaints that lead to fines):
Here’s what you or your business can learn from this case, so that crowdfunding does not become your “Doom:”
Keep your promises when crowdfunding. If you promise rewards, give them. If you promise refunds, provide them.
Use the money raised from crowdfunding only for the purpose represented. If you collect money for a specified project, like creating a board game, use the money only for that purpose. Don’t use it for personal purposes or to start another project.
Is it mismanagement/waste as you suspect or are they focused on goals with all these 'accountability' demands being a hindrance to actual game development?
I don't know as I don't follow the day to day and week to week development progress close enough. However, this is MMO development for one of the most ambitious projects ever and think benefit of the doubt should be given to the developer where applicable and proven otherwise.
The benefit of the doubt was given. For one additional year of what should be the full release. Instead, they did not pass of 5% of a mess released (even that it does not matter if it is a mess, it is, which raises even more doubts about their capacity associated with an obvious cash grabbing and with the obvious fact that as more time it takes, more personal profit the founders of the company can make).
Lol? Really? Already given? Yea like MMOs never get delayed or anything. And had they stuck to that original schedule people would have been even more pissed.
And they already provide regular updates on what they are doing on their website. They are already far more transparent than they have to be.
I view it as a waste of time for a game developer to spend any more time trying to appease internet nerds and their sense of entitlement instead of spending that time actually working on the game.
All the time people bring this "they provide regular updates on what they are doing on their website". Almost like if it was a good faith act.
It's not. They got million of dollars under the excuse to share such things. And you have no idea what that they share is true, or its lie just to don't make you panic, or sometimes to try to give the idea that they "know what they are doing", so people do not lose the trust. The fact is, that all these things that they shared, when investigate deeply, reveal discrepancies and absolute tries to mislead consumers to make their decisions to buy things.
They are not transparent at all, and they earn a lot more dollars, just to share what they share.
This is not 'good faith'. This is for profit. Period.
"I view it as a waste of time for a game developer to spend any more time trying to appease internet nerds "
The only internet nerds are those who refuse this. Who lives in denial and act like parrots of a marketing/pr scheme. Don't see the facts and only looks to the speech and in general, suffering from amnesia. The rest who will see the validity of the asking, considering in what status we are and what was told that would should be, and other circumstances that makes the whole thing suspicion, are just normal consumers that understand that their rights must to be respected, and they cannot be mislead.
It's called patronage. Don't gift money to an idea or project if you suspect you will demand unprecedented levels of transparency. That's on the patron and their unrealistic 'demands' and sense of entitlement.
So from Laced and Jcrg99's responses I am seeing no evidence from the "SC is a scam" camp. (And Jc, Smart's blogs aren't evidence especially after he's been caught in several lies)
So, from the pro-SC crowd? Any evidence that the accusations are false (aside from the FTC investigation being proven false and Smart's blogs being wildly inconsistent on his 'facts')?
Also Laced did make a fair point. Though CIG does not LEGALLY have to account for their spending to the backers, what does it hurt for them to do so?
I'll lay my cards on the table here, I lean more towards Derek being full of shit in this whole thing due to his past and the falsehoods he has already been caught in; however I do not see how CIG sharing even an aridged version of their spending or just a projection of future costs on the project to give backers an idea of where things stand as being a bad thing.
And that is a logical response.
Clearly im from the camp who thinks this is a poorly mismanaged project rife with nepotism, waste and not a chance in hell of release- A repeat of CR's leading of Digital Anvil Studios.
Cig could take the accountability route and it would do nothing but good for their business- if things are on the up and up, folks on the fence would maybe be more apt to throw in some cash and folks already up to their ears in spaceships that dont exist could buy more spaceships that dont exist KNOWING the chance of them existing one day is on the high side.
Cig could answer for their ninja changing of the TOS and explain why even have a TOS if one side can change it without notice at any time?
if CIG addressed the issues rather than spin "yes we fired people but its not really lay offs , its 'streamlining" us 'haters' would have to shut up and DS would go away. It would also set a great example for future crowdfunding projects.
Is it mismanagement/waste as you suspect or are they focused on goals with all these 'accountability' demands being a hindrance to actual game development?
I don't know as I don't follow the day to day and week to week development progress close enough. However, this is MMO development for one of the most ambitious projects ever and think benefit of the doubt should be given to the developer where applicable and proven otherwise.
Okay, everyone says how much "time and money" accountability will cost- it will cost almost zero.
The records exist and they have CPA's (or the equivalent) and attorneys on retainer.
We keep hearing that "creating all these ships for sale does not slow down progress on the game because its a different department" (one of the talking points...)- Same here- the CPA's (or equivalent) will not slow down the game and they have to have them on retainer.
CIG also promised transparency and to let us know where the money went if the game wasnt released after XX date (per their own TOS) which they changed without notice to give themselves waaaaaaaaay more time.
I'm not going to bore you with all the details but its all online from CR's past (and his companies hes run in the ground) to lawsuits by kevin Cosner during his Hollywood ventures , to overpromising and underdelivering and piss poor management/leadership.
Now things are certainly looking like a repeat of CR overpromising and underdelivering and managing a company into the ground- This time with 100 million of crowdfunded money and zero accountability.
You can look at both sides and see who you believe- You dont have to 'like' or 'trust' derek smart to look at the information objectively and DS isnt the only one who has been bringing this shit up for over a year now - hes just the most public name.
Aside from that- Accountability hurts nobody and would actually help their funding on this next ship sale for $450 IF things are on the up and up.
There is a reason no one in their right mind does all of that....because it takes away from the actual development of the game!
Sometimes I wonder what age or life experience is behind the names of the people I often communicate with- And dont take that as an insult because I dont just mean you.
EVERY company already has the records ready to go- No company is "scrambling " to put together records of their itemization and a XX Million company has a dedicated department for this or at least someone on retainer.
-Every company has this ready to go- Especially when you're in the millions of dollars.
- Plus, if it was sooooooo much time and money- Why did CIG promise to do it in their TOS and then change it overnight?
Also, I guess all those people making ships are REALLY taking time and money from the actual game. We are way behind schedule, the FPS module was delayed AGAIN and yet they have people making ships for sale.
Name the Federal statute then. The only Federal case that keeps getting repeated ended up settling out of court with no admission of guilt and nothing paid back!
"Under the settlement order, Chevalier is prohibited from making misrepresentations about any crowdfunding campaign and from failing to honor stated refund policies. He is also barred from disclosing or otherwise benefiting from customers’ personal information, and failing to dispose of such information properly. The order imposes a $111,793.71 judgment that will be suspended due to Chevalier’s inability to pay. The full amount will become due immediately if he is found to have misrepresented his financial condition."
Stop to lie.
Read the actual case on the government's website. You're just being intellectually dishonest now.
So from Laced and Jcrg99's responses I am seeing no evidence from the "SC is a scam" camp. (And Jc, Smart's blogs aren't evidence especially after he's been caught in several lies)
So, from the pro-SC crowd? Any evidence that the accusations are false (aside from the FTC investigation being proven false and Smart's blogs being wildly inconsistent on his 'facts')?
Also Laced did make a fair point. Though CIG does not LEGALLY have to account for their spending to the backers, what does it hurt for them to do so?
I'll lay my cards on the table here, I lean more towards Derek being full of shit in this whole thing due to his past and the falsehoods he has already been caught in; however I do not see how CIG sharing even an aridged version of their spending or just a projection of future costs on the project to give backers an idea of where things stand as being a bad thing.
And that is a logical response.
Clearly im from the camp who thinks this is a poorly mismanaged project rife with nepotism, waste and not a chance in hell of release- A repeat of CR's leading of Digital Anvil Studios.
Cig could take the accountability route and it would do nothing but good for their business- if things are on the up and up, folks on the fence would maybe be more apt to throw in some cash and folks already up to their ears in spaceships that dont exist could buy more spaceships that dont exist KNOWING the chance of them existing one day is on the high side.
Cig could answer for their ninja changing of the TOS and explain why even have a TOS if one side can change it without notice at any time?
if CIG addressed the issues rather than spin "yes we fired people but its not really lay offs , its 'streamlining" us 'haters' would have to shut up and DS would go away. It would also set a great example for future crowdfunding projects.
Is it mismanagement/waste as you suspect or are they focused on goals with all these 'accountability' demands being a hindrance to actual game development?
I don't know as I don't follow the day to day and week to week development progress close enough. However, this is MMO development for one of the most ambitious projects ever and think benefit of the doubt should be given to the developer where applicable and proven otherwise.
Okay, everyone says how much "time and money" accountability will cost- it will cost almost zero.
The records exist and they have CPA's (or the equivalent) and attorneys on retainer.
We keep hearing that "creating all these ships for sale does not slow down progress on the game because its a different department" (one of the talking points...)- Same here- the CPA's (or equivalent) will not slow down the game and they have to have them on retainer.
CIG also promised transparency and to let us know where the money went if the game wasnt released after XX date (per their own TOS) which they changed without notice to give themselves waaaaaaaaay more time.
I'm not going to bore you with all the details but its all online from CR's past (and his companies hes run in the ground) to lawsuits by kevin Cosner during his Hollywood ventures , to overpromising and underdelivering and piss poor management/leadership.
Now things are certainly looking like a repeat of CR overpromising and underdelivering and managing a company into the ground- This time with 100 million of crowdfunded money and zero accountability.
You can look at both sides and see who you believe- You dont have to 'like' or 'trust' derek smart to look at the information objectively and DS isnt the only one who has been bringing this shit up for over a year now - hes just the most public name.
Aside from that- Accountability hurts nobody and would actually help their funding on this next ship sale for $450 IF things are on the up and up.
There is a reason no one in their right mind does all of that....because it takes away from the actual development of the game!
Sometimes I wonder what age or life experience is behind the names of the people I often communicate with- And dont take that as an insult because I dont just mean you.
EVERY company already has the records ready to go- No company is "scrambling " to put together records of their itemization and a XX Million company has a dedicated department for this or at least someone on retainer.
-Every company has this ready to go- Especially when you're in the millions of dollars.
- Plus, if it was sooooooo much time and money- Why did CIG promise to do it in their TOS and then change it overnight?
Also, I guess all those people making ships are REALLY taking time and money from the actual game. We are way behind schedule, the FPS module was delayed AGAIN and yet they have people making ships for sale.
Seems to me a waste of time and money and a huge distraction for a game in active development. I would never do that.
So from Laced and Jcrg99's responses I am seeing no evidence from the "SC is a scam" camp. (And Jc, Smart's blogs aren't evidence especially after he's been caught in several lies)
So, from the pro-SC crowd? Any evidence that the accusations are false (aside from the FTC investigation being proven false and Smart's blogs being wildly inconsistent on his 'facts')?
Also Laced did make a fair point. Though CIG does not LEGALLY have to account for their spending to the backers, what does it hurt for them to do so?
I'll lay my cards on the table here, I lean more towards Derek being full of shit in this whole thing due to his past and the falsehoods he has already been caught in; however I do not see how CIG sharing even an aridged version of their spending or just a projection of future costs on the project to give backers an idea of where things stand as being a bad thing.
Again, this is not about Derek Smart. It's about the message and its inherent request. It is a message and request of transparency and accountability. Nothing more, nothing less. Switch his name to mine or any other name if that brings you more comfort. The strategy used here by SC and its defenders is a strategy purposefully advanced by the RSI/CiG team at the outset of this "crisis." It is one of intentionally attacking the messenger so as to detract from the real issue at hand. It is a defense strategy quite popular with defense attorneys in their defense against a defendant in an indefensible position. All that is being requested is a bit of transparency and accountability. If we could get a bit more of that and a lot less of Derek Smart please, then we'd be getting somewhere. That said, I doubt any of that is forthcoming. The strategy of continuing to muddy up the waters in the hopeful belief that it will go away is all they have.
Btw, kudos to you for conceding that last sentence in your last paragraph. It is the first time I have read of any SC/Chris Robert's defenders admit that there is nothing wrong with a bit of transparency and accountability.
I was responding to Jrc using Smart's blogs and statements as proof the CIG is involved in shady dealings, I was not the one who originally brought him up, and I'd rather he be left out of this discussion since he is irrelevant. This seems to be a running theme with you and I can only assume this is some sort of reading comprehension issue.
Secondly, I "conceded" nothing. It has always been my stance that transparency is good and that while it is not legally required it would do much to turn back people's apprehension with the project. I have no idea why you keep reading intent into my statements but it, again, strikes me as a lack of reading comprehension.
Lastly, once more from the top, I am no one's defender. Your continued attempts to frame anyone who disagrees with you in this way comes off as far more cult-like than even the most hardcore SC white knight.
And for Jcrg99; you ask what has he lied about? Here is an entire subreddit full of catching Derek in falsehoods: https://www.reddit.com/r/DerekSmart/
Just read up on it. It's a treasure trove of Smart's greatest hits. But for an abridged, here is a list of lies Smart told: >He was working with the FTC to investigate SC >He lied to CIG about his address to fraud their refund process >He lied about never having attacked someone's personal lives/spouses in his blog posts >He lied about the time and reasons of several people's leaving CIG >He lied about not calling SC a scam back in Feb.
Just pick one.
So leave Smart and his "blog" out of this one Jcrg, he is a failed developer with a track record of lying since 1996 and nobody, except you it seems, takes him seriously.
Name the Federal statute then. The only Federal case that keeps getting repeated ended up settling out of court with no admission of guilt and nothing paid back!
"Under the settlement order, Chevalier is prohibited from making misrepresentations about any crowdfunding campaign and from failing to honor stated refund policies. He is also barred from disclosing or otherwise benefiting from customers’ personal information, and failing to dispose of such information properly. The order imposes a $111,793.71 judgment that will be suspended due to Chevalier’s inability to pay. The full amount will become due immediately if he is found to have misrepresented his financial condition."
Stop to lie.
Read the actual case on the government's website. You're just being intellectually dishonest now.
Oh! I am dishonest... look ... from the link that you brought:
'Under the settlement order, Chevalier is prohibited from making misrepresentations about any crowdfunding campaign and from failing to honor stated refund policies. He is also barred from disclosing or otherwise benefiting from customers’ personal information, and failing to dispose of such information properly. The order imposes a $111,793.71 judgment that will be suspended due to Chevalier’s inability to pay. The full amount will become due immediately if he is found to have misrepresented his financial condition."
Trying to see in what this is different to what I quoted before lol
You say accountability seems like a "waste of time" what do you think about the artists cranking out ships for sale when the game is late and the FPS is delayed yet again and there seems to be no end in sight?
-Also Im glad most people dont think accountability is a "big waste of time" since when we have zero accountability is when the worst deeds are done- Even with accountability in business and everywhere else we find fraud everywhere- You think it'll work better to just not check? To trust everyone at their word? Is it a 'waste of time' to check incomes and verify things when someone is filing for welfare? That costs 'time and money' too and thats tax money- is it 'wasted'?
It's called patronage. Don't gift money to an idea or project if you suspect you will demand unprecedented levels of transparency. That's on the patron and their unrealistic 'demands' and sense of entitlement.
Hey man. People are talking about United States. Not the SlothnChunk country where his president SlothnChunck applies what he thinks that matter is, regardless what the authorities would say.
You can have influence there, maybe, but not in United States
And crowdfunding with rewards is a sale
You are not gifting money when rewards were promised to you.
But that maybe does not apply in the SlothnChunk country. So, thanks to let me know how that works in that place.
Name the Federal statute then. The only Federal case that keeps getting repeated ended up settling out of court with no admission of guilt and nothing paid back!
"Under the settlement order, Chevalier is prohibited from making misrepresentations about any crowdfunding campaign and from failing to honor stated refund policies. He is also barred from disclosing or otherwise benefiting from customers’ personal information, and failing to dispose of such information properly. The order imposes a $111,793.71 judgment that will be suspended due to Chevalier’s inability to pay. The full amount will become due immediately if he is found to have misrepresented his financial condition."
Stop to lie.
Read the actual case on the government's website. You're just being intellectually dishonest now.
Oh! I am dishonest... look ... from the link that you brought:
'Under the settlement order, Chevalier is prohibited from making misrepresentations about any crowdfunding campaign and from failing to honor stated refund policies. He is also barred from disclosing or otherwise benefiting from customers’ personal information, and failing to dispose of such information properly. The order imposes a $111,793.71 judgment that will be suspended due to Chevalier’s inability to pay. The full amount will become due immediately if he is found to have misrepresented his financial condition."
Trying to see in what this is different to what I quoted before lol
Reading comprehension is a good skill to have: - It was an out of court settlement because he didn't actually violate an actual Federal statute - No admission of guilt - No barred from establishing crowdfunding projects in the future - And paid $0 because there was no money left
LOL!!!! THAT'S the PRECEDENT? Are you f*&)& kidding me?
It's called patronage. Don't gift money to an idea or project if you suspect you will demand unprecedented levels of transparency. That's on the patron and their unrealistic 'demands' and sense of entitlement.
Hey man. People are talking about United States. Not the SlothnChunk country where his president SlothnChunck applies what he thinks that matter is, regardless what the authorities would say.
You can have influence there, maybe, but not in United States
And crowdfunding with rewards is a sale
You are not gifting money when rewards were promised to you.
But that maybe does not apply in the SlothnChunk country. So, thanks to let me know how that works in that place.
Eh fanboys gunna fanboy....
This guy claims accountability is a big waste of time and evidently its okay for CIG to say they will provide it and then renig on the contract -And-- making ships for sale on a late game is fine because 'its not the same department' but having the CPA's who are already retained print out an itemization is too much work and money and will slow down the game .
CR could punch this guys grandma in the head and he would say "the bitch deserved it"
cannot argue with the willfully blind.
Cult mentality bro-
With [people like him you just have to say 'wait and see" or it becomes a pointless, circular argument . If one shows they ignore all logic in their utter defense of something then you just move on. Some cases are hopeless.
So from Laced and Jcrg99's responses I am seeing no evidence from the "SC is a scam" camp. (And Jc, Smart's blogs aren't evidence especially after he's been caught in several lies)
So, from the pro-SC crowd? Any evidence that the accusations are false (aside from the FTC investigation being proven false and Smart's blogs being wildly inconsistent on his 'facts')?
Also Laced did make a fair point. Though CIG does not LEGALLY have to account for their spending to the backers, what does it hurt for them to do so?
I'll lay my cards on the table here, I lean more towards Derek being full of shit in this whole thing due to his past and the falsehoods he has already been caught in; however I do not see how CIG sharing even an aridged version of their spending or just a projection of future costs on the project to give backers an idea of where things stand as being a bad thing.
Again, this is not about Derek Smart. It's about the message and its inherent request. It is a message and request of transparency and accountability. Nothing more, nothing less. Switch his name to mine or any other name if that brings you more comfort. The strategy used here by SC and its defenders is a strategy purposefully advanced by the RSI/CiG team at the outset of this "crisis." It is one of intentionally attacking the messenger so as to detract from the real issue at hand. It is a defense strategy quite popular with defense attorneys in their defense against a defendant in an indefensible position. All that is being requested is a bit of transparency and accountability. If we could get a bit more of that and a lot less of Derek Smart please, then we'd be getting somewhere. That said, I doubt any of that is forthcoming. The strategy of continuing to muddy up the waters in the hopeful belief that it will go away is all they have.
Btw, kudos to you for conceding that last sentence in your last paragraph. It is the first time I have read of any SC/Chris Robert's defenders admit that there is nothing wrong with a bit of transparency and accountability.
I was responding to Jrc using Smart's blogs and statements as proof the CIG is involved in shady dealings, I was not the one who originally brought him up, and I'd rather he be left out of this discussion since he is irrelevant. This seems to be a running theme with you and I can only assume this is some sort of reading comprehension issue.
Secondly, I "conceded" nothing. It has always been my stance that transparency is good and that while it is not legally required it would do much to turn back people's apprehension with the project. I have no idea why you keep reading intent into my statements but it, again, strikes me as a lack of reading comprehension.
Lastly, once more from the top, I am no one's defender. Your continued attempts to frame anyone who disagrees with you in this way comes off as far more cult-like than even the most hardcore SC white knight.
And for Jcrg99; you ask what has he lied about? Here is an entire subreddit full of catching Derek in falsehoods: https://www.reddit.com/r/DerekSmart/
Just read up on it. It's a treasure trove of Smart's greatest hits. But for an abridged, here is a list of lies Smart told: >He was working with the FTC to investigate SC >He lied to CIG about his address to fraud their refund process >He lied about never having attacked someone's personal lives/spouses in his blog posts >He lied about the time and reasons of several people's leaving CIG >He lied about not calling SC a scam back in Feb.
Just pick one.
So leave Smart and his "blog" out of this one Jcrg, he is a failed developer with a track record of lying since 1996 and nobody, except you it seems, takes him seriously.
Breathe dude.
Derek Smart its a running theme in my posts for the reasons stated in those posts. The fact that you are unable to understand this lends more toward your having a comprehension issue, not me.
Regarding your second paragraph, I keep doing nothing to you. I gave you kudos for acknowledging my ONLY point of view. And that is one of transparency and accountability. I did not have to, but I did. Be thankful.
Lastly, I don't know you and really could not care less where you stand on this matter. You can play the flip-flopper all you want but in this particular thread you are obviously defending SC, et al, or we would not be otherwise having this discussion.
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the fire, my friend.
It's called patronage. Don't gift money to an idea or project if you suspect you will demand unprecedented levels of transparency. That's on the patron and their unrealistic 'demands' and sense of entitlement.
Hey man. People are talking about United States. Not the SlothnChunk country where his president SlothnChunck applies what he thinks that matter is, regardless what the authorities would say.
You can have influence there, maybe, but not in United States
And crowdfunding with rewards is a sale
You are not gifting money when rewards were promised to you.
But that maybe does not apply in the SlothnChunk country. So, thanks to let me know how that works in that place.
Eh fanboys gunna fanboy....
This guy claims accountability is a big waste of time and evidently its okay for CIG to say they will provide it and then renig on the contract -And-- making ships for sale on a late game is fine because 'its not the same department' but having the CPA's who are already retained print out an itemization is too much work and money and will slow down the game .
CR could punch this guys grandma in the head and he would say "the bitch deserved it"
cannot argue with the willfully blind.
Cult mentality bro-
With [people like him you just have to say 'wait and see" or it becomes a pointless, circular argument . If one shows they ignore all logic in their utter defense of something then you just move on. Some cases are hopeless.
I would argue that this unprecedented level of transparency which is 'demanded' would be a hindrance to any developer. There is a reason why the average developer says nothing until the game is ready for release or beta with NDAs.
So from Laced and Jcrg99's responses I am seeing no evidence from the "SC is a scam" camp. (And Jc, Smart's blogs aren't evidence especially after he's been caught in several lies)
So, from the pro-SC crowd? Any evidence that the accusations are false (aside from the FTC investigation being proven false and Smart's blogs being wildly inconsistent on his 'facts')?
Also Laced did make a fair point. Though CIG does not LEGALLY have to account for their spending to the backers, what does it hurt for them to do so?
I'll lay my cards on the table here, I lean more towards Derek being full of shit in this whole thing due to his past and the falsehoods he has already been caught in; however I do not see how CIG sharing even an aridged version of their spending or just a projection of future costs on the project to give backers an idea of where things stand as being a bad thing.
Again, this is not about Derek Smart. It's about the message and its inherent request. It is a message and request of transparency and accountability. Nothing more, nothing less. Switch his name to mine or any other name if that brings you more comfort. The strategy used here by SC and its defenders is a strategy purposefully advanced by the RSI/CiG team at the outset of this "crisis." It is one of intentionally attacking the messenger so as to detract from the real issue at hand. It is a defense strategy quite popular with defense attorneys in their defense against a defendant in an indefensible position. All that is being requested is a bit of transparency and accountability. If we could get a bit more of that and a lot less of Derek Smart please, then we'd be getting somewhere. That said, I doubt any of that is forthcoming. The strategy of continuing to muddy up the waters in the hopeful belief that it will go away is all they have.
Btw, kudos to you for conceding that last sentence in your last paragraph. It is the first time I have read of any SC/Chris Robert's defenders admit that there is nothing wrong with a bit of transparency and accountability.
I was responding to Jrc using Smart's blogs and statements as proof the CIG is involved in shady dealings, I was not the one who originally brought him up, and I'd rather he be left out of this discussion since he is irrelevant. This seems to be a running theme with you and I can only assume this is some sort of reading comprehension issue.
Secondly, I "conceded" nothing. It has always been my stance that transparency is good and that while it is not legally required it would do much to turn back people's apprehension with the project. I have no idea why you keep reading intent into my statements but it, again, strikes me as a lack of reading comprehension.
Lastly, once more from the top, I am no one's defender. Your continued attempts to frame anyone who disagrees with you in this way comes off as far more cult-like than even the most hardcore SC white knight.
And for Jcrg99; you ask what has he lied about? Here is an entire subreddit full of catching Derek in falsehoods: https://www.reddit.com/r/DerekSmart/
Just read up on it. It's a treasure trove of Smart's greatest hits. But for an abridged, here is a list of lies Smart told: >He was working with the FTC to investigate SC >He lied to CIG about his address to fraud their refund process >He lied about never having attacked someone's personal lives/spouses in his blog posts >He lied about the time and reasons of several people's leaving CIG >He lied about not calling SC a scam back in Feb.
Just pick one.
So leave Smart and his "blog" out of this one Jcrg, he is a failed developer with a track record of lying since 1996 and nobody, except you it seems, takes him seriously.
>He was working with the FTC to investigate SC
This is not a lie. I think that you did not understand what was said. You confused, he working with FTC (researching about, even calling them to clarify doubts, sending complaints, etc.) as saying that FTC opened an investigation. In fact, this is very ridiculous interpretation, considering that he told, more than one time, that would proceed with action because the Feds are slow and when they decide to act, in his point of view, will be too late.
>He lied to CIG about his address to fraud their refund process
Says who?
>He lied about never having attacked someone's personal lives/spouses in his blog posts
What?
>He lied about the time and reasons of several people's leaving CIG?
Is he? Says who?
>He lied about not calling SC a scam back in Feb.
Another lack of interpretation of things get out of context. When Derek Smart, and in fact ANY person who calls Star Citizen a SCAM, at least those who follows the project, they are not saying that they are criminals. They are saying that they are taking advantage of good faith of people, in bad faith. It is a "scam" indeed, but not the kind of scam that people imagine when someone accuses them of it. Can you see the difference? I hope that you can, because there is a big difference... and both are illegal.
The SCAM that people imagine in their minds when someone say this, are things that would lead Chris Roberts and co. to jail. While there is this possibility, nobody ever accused them and actually, have suspicion that the possibility exists, and for that, to prove this false, is that why accountability has been demanded in the first place.
But the scam related to defraud consumers, Smart did not lie about that. He, me, and whoever that actually understood the CIG defrauded customers and felt in consumer fraud, this is a fact. and its under this premise that me or he will call "scam" sometimes, specially when too flamed by white knights.
So, all your points are or misinterpretations (lame interpretations caused by a prejudice behavior I guess, to the point of forgetting that its illogical considering other statements of DSmart) and/or are blalant lies, sensationalism, and white knights twisting and spreading it around the internet to get people that won't go deep (like seems your case in this issue) in the trap.
Its also a psychological reflex that people want desperately to grab themselves in whatever statement that could "prove the evil Derek wrong", so their dreams be saved. I mean... you said... "He lied about address" or "He lied about reasons that people left"... and that's why I said... "Is he? Says who?", hoping that you understand what that means or stop to think, for a second, if those who, would have reasons to lie... because I am sure that they have
More people than you think take Smart seriously, or does not act in prejudice behavior with other people's statements, specially when corroborated by logic and facts (actual links of credible sources, etc., or the own statements of Roberts and co. IN CONTEXT). Specially people who are game developers without ties to Roberts and co. and understand one or two things more than the average gamer.
In fact. You would be surprised. Or you failed to see that too... Nobody... not a single game developer without previous ties/friendship with CR, came in his defense or even believe, specially now, that he will be able to deliver into his promises. Don't you ever wondered why?
So from Laced and Jcrg99's responses I am seeing no evidence from the "SC is a scam" camp. (And Jc, Smart's blogs aren't evidence especially after he's been caught in several lies)
So, from the pro-SC crowd? Any evidence that the accusations are false (aside from the FTC investigation being proven false and Smart's blogs being wildly inconsistent on his 'facts')?
Also Laced did make a fair point. Though CIG does not LEGALLY have to account for their spending to the backers, what does it hurt for them to do so?
I'll lay my cards on the table here, I lean more towards Derek being full of shit in this whole thing due to his past and the falsehoods he has already been caught in; however I do not see how CIG sharing even an aridged version of their spending or just a projection of future costs on the project to give backers an idea of where things stand as being a bad thing.
Again, this is not about Derek Smart. It's about the message and its inherent request. It is a message and request of transparency and accountability. Nothing more, nothing less. Switch his name to mine or any other name if that brings you more comfort. The strategy used here by SC and its defenders is a strategy purposefully advanced by the RSI/CiG team at the outset of this "crisis." It is one of intentionally attacking the messenger so as to detract from the real issue at hand. It is a defense strategy quite popular with defense attorneys in their defense against a defendant in an indefensible position. All that is being requested is a bit of transparency and accountability. If we could get a bit more of that and a lot less of Derek Smart please, then we'd be getting somewhere. That said, I doubt any of that is forthcoming. The strategy of continuing to muddy up the waters in the hopeful belief that it will go away is all they have.
Btw, kudos to you for conceding that last sentence in your last paragraph. It is the first time I have read of any SC/Chris Robert's defenders admit that there is nothing wrong with a bit of transparency and accountability.
I was responding to Jrc using Smart's blogs and statements as proof the CIG is involved in shady dealings, I was not the one who originally brought him up, and I'd rather he be left out of this discussion since he is irrelevant. This seems to be a running theme with you and I can only assume this is some sort of reading comprehension issue.
Secondly, I "conceded" nothing. It has always been my stance that transparency is good and that while it is not legally required it would do much to turn back people's apprehension with the project. I have no idea why you keep reading intent into my statements but it, again, strikes me as a lack of reading comprehension.
Lastly, once more from the top, I am no one's defender. Your continued attempts to frame anyone who disagrees with you in this way comes off as far more cult-like than even the most hardcore SC white knight.
And for Jcrg99; you ask what has he lied about? Here is an entire subreddit full of catching Derek in falsehoods: https://www.reddit.com/r/DerekSmart/
Just read up on it. It's a treasure trove of Smart's greatest hits. But for an abridged, here is a list of lies Smart told: >He was working with the FTC to investigate SC >He lied to CIG about his address to fraud their refund process >He lied about never having attacked someone's personal lives/spouses in his blog posts >He lied about the time and reasons of several people's leaving CIG >He lied about not calling SC a scam back in Feb.
Just pick one.
So leave Smart and his "blog" out of this one Jcrg, he is a failed developer with a track record of lying since 1996 and nobody, except you it seems, takes him seriously.
>He was working with the FTC to investigate SC
This is not a lie. I think that you did not understand what was said. You confused, he working with FTC (researching about, even calling them to clarify doubts, sending complaints, etc.) as saying that FTC opened an investigation. In fact, this is very ridiculous interpretation, considering that he told, more than one time, that would proceed with action because the Feds are slow and when they decide to act, in his point of view, will be too late.
>He lied to CIG about his address to fraud their refund process
Says who?
>He lied about never having attacked someone's personal lives/spouses in his blog posts
What?
>He lied about the time and reasons of several people's leaving CIG?
Is he? Says who?
>He lied about not calling SC a scam back in Feb.
Another lack of interpretation of things get out of context. When Derek Smart, and in fact ANY person who calls Star Citizen a SCAM, at least those who follows the project, they are not saying that they are criminals. They are saying that they are taking advantage of good faith of people, in bad faith. It is a "scam" indeed, but not the kind of scam that people imagine when someone accuses them of it. Can you see the difference? I hope that you can, because there is a big difference... and both are illegal.
The SCAM that people imagine in their minds when someone say this, are things that would lead Chris Roberts and co. to jail. While there is this possibility, nobody ever accused them and actually, have suspicion that the possibility exists, and for that, to prove this false, is that why accountability has been demanded in the first place.
But the scam related to defraud consumers, Smart did not lie about that. He, me, and whoever that actually understood the CIG defrauded customers and felt in consumer fraud, this is a fact. and its under this premise that me or he will call "scam" sometimes, specially when too flamed by white knights.
So, all your points are or misinterpretations (lame interpretations caused by a prejudice behavior I guess, to the point of forgetting that its illogical considering other statements of DSmart) and/or are blalant lies, sensationalism, and white knights twisting and spreading it around the internet to get people that won't go deep (like seems your case in this issue) in the trap.
Its also a psychological reflex that people want desperately to grab themselves in whatever statement that could "prove the evil Derek wrong", so their dreams be saved. I mean... you said... "He lied about address" or "He lied about reasons that people left"... and that's why I said... "Is he? Says who?", hoping that you understand what that means or stop to think, for a second, if those who, would have reasons to lie... because I am sure that they have
Yea...now you're defending a guy who doesn't believe his own bullshit. He couldn't take the two minutes to file an FTC complaint (free and automated).
It's called patronage. Don't gift money to an idea or project if you suspect you will demand unprecedented levels of transparency. That's on the patron and their unrealistic 'demands' and sense of entitlement.
Hey man. People are talking about United States. Not the SlothnChunk country where his president SlothnChunck applies what he thinks that matter is, regardless what the authorities would say.
You can have influence there, maybe, but not in United States
And crowdfunding with rewards is a sale
You are not gifting money when rewards were promised to you.
But that maybe does not apply in the SlothnChunk country. So, thanks to let me know how that works in that place.
Eh fanboys gunna fanboy....
This guy claims accountability is a big waste of time and evidently its okay for CIG to say they will provide it and then renig on the contract -And-- making ships for sale on a late game is fine because 'its not the same department' but having the CPA's who are already retained print out an itemization is too much work and money and will slow down the game .
CR could punch this guys grandma in the head and he would say "the bitch deserved it"
cannot argue with the willfully blind.
Cult mentality bro-
With [people like him you just have to say 'wait and see" or it becomes a pointless, circular argument . If one shows they ignore all logic in their utter defense of something then you just move on. Some cases are hopeless.
I would argue that this unprecedented level of transparency which is 'demanded' would be a hindrance to any developer. There is a reason why the average developer says nothing until the game is ready for release or beta with NDAs.
Okay- But a "regular developer" is totally transparent. I can look up all the information about finances in any traded company and if I'm a shareholder they send me that shit without my even looking for it. You act as if we are asking for something that no other company does.
Second- Even if it did slow down the already crawling game development- Why was it promised and the TOS changed overnight? is it okay for a car company to sell you a car with the promise of a fantastic waaranty and the next day change it once you drive off the lot? is this okay? Honoring the warranty will cost time and money but it was part of the sale and cannot be changed.
Third- if having a CPA/Attorney or whoever (who is already retained) give us the accountability promised in the first TOS will"slow the game down"- What about all the ships they are selling? is that slowing the game down?
It's called patronage. Don't gift money to an idea or project if you suspect you will demand unprecedented levels of transparency. That's on the patron and their unrealistic 'demands' and sense of entitlement.
Hey man. People are talking about United States. Not the SlothnChunk country where his president SlothnChunck applies what he thinks that matter is, regardless what the authorities would say.
You can have influence there, maybe, but not in United States
And crowdfunding with rewards is a sale
You are not gifting money when rewards were promised to you.
But that maybe does not apply in the SlothnChunk country. So, thanks to let me know how that works in that place.
Eh fanboys gunna fanboy....
This guy claims accountability is a big waste of time and evidently its okay for CIG to say they will provide it and then renig on the contract -And-- making ships for sale on a late game is fine because 'its not the same department' but having the CPA's who are already retained print out an itemization is too much work and money and will slow down the game .
CR could punch this guys grandma in the head and he would say "the bitch deserved it"
cannot argue with the willfully blind.
Cult mentality bro-
With [people like him you just have to say 'wait and see" or it becomes a pointless, circular argument . If one shows they ignore all logic in their utter defense of something then you just move on. Some cases are hopeless.
I would argue that this unprecedented level of transparency which is 'demanded' would be a hindrance to any developer. There is a reason why the average developer says nothing until the game is ready for release or beta with NDAs.
Okay- But a "regular developer" is totally transparent. I can look up all the information about finances in any traded company and if I'm a shareholder they send me that shit without my even looking for it. You act as if we are asking for something that no other company does.
Second- Even if it did slow down the already crawling game development- Why was it promised and the TOS changed overnight? is it okay for a car company to sell you a car with the promise of a fantastic waaranty and the next day change it once you drive off the lot? is this okay? Honoring the warranty will cost time and money but it was part of the sale and cannot be changed.
Third- if having a CPA/Attorney or whoever (who is already retained) give us the accountability promised in the first TOS will"slow the game down"- What about all the ships they are selling? is that slowing the game down?
So you knew Blizzard was canceling Titan? Or CCP canceling World of Darkness?
No way. And there is a reason why the keep it close to the chest even when they are public companies....they don't want to have to deal with all these distractions shown here.
And if I were SC I would honestly show even less because you can't appease these people. The second they are given a piece of information they demand more.
I honestly view that as waste of time for a developer to attempt to appease.
Lol, really? It's public information (not sure what country you're from but FTC complaints are public knowledge).
Now THAT is a big bullshit. You don't have any way to know who were the consumers who complained about whatever company for FTC. For obvious reasons.
Why you are not answering with your "Erilion" account? lol
Edit: Oh! I see the confusion! You people are confusing consumers complaining to FTC with FTC opening an official complaint against a company. Now I see what you fanboys are trying to twist here to claim that Derek Smart lied.
It's called patronage. Don't gift money to an idea or project if you suspect you will demand unprecedented levels of transparency. That's on the patron and their unrealistic 'demands' and sense of entitlement.
Hey man. People are talking about United States. Not the SlothnChunk country where his president SlothnChunck applies what he thinks that matter is, regardless what the authorities would say.
You can have influence there, maybe, but not in United States
And crowdfunding with rewards is a sale
You are not gifting money when rewards were promised to you.
But that maybe does not apply in the SlothnChunk country. So, thanks to let me know how that works in that place.
Eh fanboys gunna fanboy....
This guy claims accountability is a big waste of time and evidently its okay for CIG to say they will provide it and then renig on the contract -And-- making ships for sale on a late game is fine because 'its not the same department' but having the CPA's who are already retained print out an itemization is too much work and money and will slow down the game .
CR could punch this guys grandma in the head and he would say "the bitch deserved it"
cannot argue with the willfully blind.
Cult mentality bro-
With [people like him you just have to say 'wait and see" or it becomes a pointless, circular argument . If one shows they ignore all logic in their utter defense of something then you just move on. Some cases are hopeless.
I would argue that this unprecedented level of transparency which is 'demanded' would be a hindrance to any developer. There is a reason why the average developer says nothing until the game is ready for release or beta with NDAs.
Okay- But a "regular developer" is totally transparent. I can look up all the information about finances in any traded company and if I'm a shareholder they send me that shit without my even looking for it. You act as if we are asking for something that no other company does.
Second- Even if it did slow down the already crawling game development- Why was it promised and the TOS changed overnight? is it okay for a car company to sell you a car with the promise of a fantastic waaranty and the next day change it once you drive off the lot? is this okay? Honoring the warranty will cost time and money but it was part of the sale and cannot be changed.
Third- if having a CPA/Attorney or whoever (who is already retained) give us the accountability promised in the first TOS will"slow the game down"- What about all the ships they are selling? is that slowing the game down?
So you knew Blizzard was canceling Titan? Or CCP canceling World of Darkness?
No way. And there is a reason why the keep it close to the chest even when they are public companies....they don't want to have to deal with all these distractions shown here.
And if I were SC I would honestly show even less because you can't appease these people. The second they are given a piece of information they demand more.
I honestly view that as waste of time for a developer to attempt to appease.
Man...I'm not trying to get drawn in with someone who lacks all logic and objectivity but....
No- I dont know the exact details but I know the finances. When the CEO of Ford motor Company (i'm a shareholder) said he would work for $1.00/year back when stock was selling for $5.00/share I knew he was a liar 6 months later when OI received a breakdown of company finances which outlined his salary, stock options and even the company car he was given.
Whats CR make? is his wife working there? Whats she make? Where is the money going? is he really flying around in a private jet? is that 13K/month home (or whatever it is) being paid for from company fiunds or his own pocket?
How many hired this year? Fired? Whats thew salary of the current employees?Overhead? taxes? burn rate? Shrink?
these are questions we would have answers to. Which almost all companies in the multi million dollar range provide.
Lol, really? It's public information (not sure what country you're from but FTC complaints are public knowledge).
Now THAT is a big bullshit. You don't have any way to know who were the consumers who complained about whatever company for FTC. For obvious reasons.
Why you are not answering with your "Erilion" account? lol
Of course you do! FTC complaints & investigations are public knowledge!!!!
Oh! I see the confusion! You people are confusing consumers complaining to FTC with FTC opening an official complaint against a company. Now I see what you fanboys are trying to twist here to claim that Derek Smart lied.
He filed a complaint. I filed a complaint. Other people filed complaints. FTC did not... yet... because these things take time and investigation... And that letter that the depressive guy tried to spread around, desperately trying to deceive people, does not mean that FTC did not start investigation yet. Search for records on FTC are on records of official complaints already opened by FTC... not investigations. Satisfied? Go figure.
Comments
1) I want to do the lets quote/requote thing,
2) You made up allot of numbers and used allot of assumptions.
3) #1 is closer to reality than #2.
"Under the settlement order, Chevalier is prohibited from making misrepresentations about any crowdfunding campaign and from failing to honor stated refund policies. He is also barred from disclosing or otherwise benefiting from customers’ personal information, and failing to dispose of such information properly. The order imposes a $111,793.71 judgment that will be suspended due to Chevalier’s inability to pay. The full amount will become due immediately if he is found to have misrepresented his financial condition."
Stop to lie.
And here's more, directly from FTC (in the context that "doom" means they going into the throats and opening complaints that lead to fines):
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/blogs/business-blog/2015/06/dont-let-crowdfunding-be-your-doom
Here’s what you or your business can learn from this case, so that crowdfunding does not become your “Doom:”
EVERY company already has the records ready to go- No company is "scrambling " to put together records of their itemization and a XX Million company has a dedicated department for this or at least someone on retainer.
-Every company has this ready to go- Especially when you're in the millions of dollars.
- Plus, if it was sooooooo much time and money- Why did CIG promise to do it in their TOS and then change it overnight?
Also, I guess all those people making ships are REALLY taking time and money from the actual game. We are way behind schedule, the FPS module was delayed AGAIN and yet they have people making ships for sale.
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2015/06/crowdfunding-project-creator-settles-ftc-charges-deception
Secondly, I "conceded" nothing. It has always been my stance that transparency is good and that while it is not legally required it would do much to turn back people's apprehension with the project. I have no idea why you keep reading intent into my statements but it, again, strikes me as a lack of reading comprehension.
Lastly, once more from the top, I am no one's defender. Your continued attempts to frame anyone who disagrees with you in this way comes off as far more cult-like than even the most hardcore SC white knight.
And for Jcrg99; you ask what has he lied about? Here is an entire subreddit full of catching Derek in falsehoods: https://www.reddit.com/r/DerekSmart/
Just read up on it. It's a treasure trove of Smart's greatest hits.
But for an abridged, here is a list of lies Smart told:
>He was working with the FTC to investigate SC
>He lied to CIG about his address to fraud their refund process
>He lied about never having attacked someone's personal lives/spouses in his blog posts
>He lied about the time and reasons of several people's leaving CIG
>He lied about not calling SC a scam back in Feb.
Just pick one.
So leave Smart and his "blog" out of this one Jcrg, he is a failed developer with a track record of lying since 1996 and nobody, except you it seems, takes him seriously.
'Under the settlement order, Chevalier is prohibited from making misrepresentations about any crowdfunding campaign and from failing to honor stated refund policies. He is also barred from disclosing or otherwise benefiting from customers’ personal information, and failing to dispose of such information properly. The order imposes a $111,793.71 judgment that will be suspended due to Chevalier’s inability to pay. The full amount will become due immediately if he is found to have misrepresented his financial condition."
Trying to see in what this is different to what I quoted before
lol
You say accountability seems like a "waste of time" what do you think about the artists cranking out ships for sale when the game is late and the FPS is delayed yet again and there seems to be no end in sight?
-Also Im glad most people dont think accountability is a "big waste of time" since when we have zero accountability is when the worst deeds are done- Even with accountability in business and everywhere else we find fraud everywhere- You think it'll work better to just not check? To trust everyone at their word? Is it a 'waste of time' to check incomes and verify things when someone is filing for welfare? That costs 'time and money' too and thats tax money- is it 'wasted'?
Hey man. People are talking about United States. Not the SlothnChunk country where his president SlothnChunck applies what he thinks that matter is, regardless what the authorities would say.
You can have influence there, maybe, but not in United States
And crowdfunding with rewards is a sale
You are not gifting money when rewards were promised to you.
But that maybe does not apply in the SlothnChunk country. So, thanks to let me know how that works in that place.
- It was an out of court settlement because he didn't actually violate an actual Federal statute
- No admission of guilt
- No barred from establishing crowdfunding projects in the future
- And paid $0 because there was no money left
LOL!!!! THAT'S the PRECEDENT? Are you f*&)& kidding me?
This guy claims accountability is a big waste of time and evidently its okay for CIG to say they will provide it and then renig on the contract -And-- making ships for sale on a late game is fine because 'its not the same department' but having the CPA's who are already retained print out an itemization is too much work and money and will slow down the game .
CR could punch this guys grandma in the head and he would say "the bitch deserved it"
cannot argue with the willfully blind.
Cult mentality bro-
With [people like him you just have to say 'wait and see" or it becomes a pointless, circular argument . If one shows they ignore all logic in their utter defense of something then you just move on. Some cases are hopeless.
Breathe dude.
Derek Smart its a running theme in my posts for the reasons stated in those posts. The fact that you are unable to understand this lends more toward your having a comprehension issue, not me.
Regarding your second paragraph, I keep doing nothing to you. I gave you kudos for acknowledging my ONLY point of view. And that is one of transparency and accountability. I did not have to, but I did. Be thankful.
Lastly, I don't know you and really could not care less where you stand on this matter. You can play the flip-flopper all you want but in this particular thread you are obviously defending SC, et al, or we would not be otherwise having this discussion.
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the fire, my friend.
This is not a lie. I think that you did not understand what was said. You confused, he working with FTC (researching about, even calling them to clarify doubts, sending complaints, etc.) as saying that FTC opened an investigation. In fact, this is very ridiculous interpretation, considering that he told, more than one time, that would proceed with action because the Feds are slow and when they decide to act, in his point of view, will be too late.
>He lied to CIG about his address to fraud their refund process
Says who?
>He lied about never having attacked someone's personal lives/spouses in his blog posts
What?
>He lied about the time and reasons of several people's leaving CIG?
Is he? Says who?
>He lied about not calling SC a scam back in Feb.
Another lack of interpretation of things get out of context. When Derek Smart, and in fact ANY person who calls Star Citizen a SCAM, at least those who follows the project, they are not saying that they are criminals. They are saying that they are taking advantage of good faith of people, in bad faith. It is a "scam" indeed, but not the kind of scam that people imagine when someone accuses them of it. Can you see the difference?
I hope that you can, because there is a big difference... and both are illegal.
The SCAM that people imagine in their minds when someone say this, are things that would lead Chris Roberts and co. to jail. While there is this possibility, nobody ever accused them and actually, have suspicion that the possibility exists, and for that, to prove this false, is that why accountability has been demanded in the first place.
But the scam related to defraud consumers, Smart did not lie about that. He, me, and whoever that actually understood the CIG defrauded customers and felt in consumer fraud, this is a fact. and its under this premise that me or he will call "scam" sometimes, specially when too flamed by white knights.
So, all your points are or misinterpretations (lame interpretations caused by a prejudice behavior I guess, to the point of forgetting that its illogical considering other statements of DSmart) and/or are blalant lies, sensationalism, and white knights twisting and spreading it around the internet to get people that won't go deep (like seems your case in this issue) in the trap.
Its also a psychological reflex that people want desperately to grab themselves in whatever statement that could "prove the evil Derek wrong", so their dreams be saved. I mean... you said... "He lied about address" or "He lied about reasons that people left"... and that's why I said... "Is he? Says who?", hoping that you understand what that means or stop to think, for a second, if those who, would have reasons to lie... because I am sure that they have
More people than you think take Smart seriously, or does not act in prejudice behavior with other people's statements, specially when corroborated by logic and facts (actual links of credible sources, etc., or the own statements of Roberts and co. IN CONTEXT). Specially people who are game developers without ties to Roberts and co. and understand one or two things more than the average gamer.
In fact. You would be surprised. Or you failed to see that too... Nobody... not a single game developer without previous ties/friendship with CR, came in his defense or even believe, specially now, that he will be able to deliver into his promises. Don't you ever wondered why?
Second- Even if it did slow down the already crawling game development- Why was it promised and the TOS changed overnight? is it okay for a car company to sell you a car with the promise of a fantastic waaranty and the next day change it once you drive off the lot? is this okay? Honoring the warranty will cost time and money but it was part of the sale and cannot be changed.
Third- if having a CPA/Attorney or whoever (who is already retained) give us the accountability promised in the first TOS will"slow the game down"- What about all the ships they are selling? is that slowing the game down?
No way. And there is a reason why the keep it close to the chest even when they are public companies....they don't want to have to deal with all these distractions shown here.
And if I were SC I would honestly show even less because you can't appease these people. The second they are given a piece of information they demand more.
I honestly view that as waste of time for a developer to attempt to appease.
Why you are not answering with your "Erilion" account?
lol
Edit: Oh! I see the confusion! You people are confusing consumers complaining to FTC with FTC opening an official complaint against a company. Now I see what you fanboys are trying to twist here to claim that Derek Smart lied.
No- I dont know the exact details but I know the finances. When the CEO of Ford motor Company (i'm a shareholder) said he would work for $1.00/year back when stock was selling for $5.00/share I knew he was a liar 6 months later when OI received a breakdown of company finances which outlined his salary, stock options and even the company car he was given.
Whats CR make? is his wife working there? Whats she make? Where is the money going? is he really flying around in a private jet? is that 13K/month home (or whatever it is) being paid for from company fiunds or his own pocket?
How many hired this year? Fired? Whats thew salary of the current employees?Overhead? taxes? burn rate? Shrink?
these are questions we would have answers to. Which almost all companies in the multi million dollar range provide.
He filed a complaint. I filed a complaint. Other people filed complaints.
FTC did not... yet... because these things take time and investigation...
And that letter that the depressive guy tried to spread around, desperately trying to deceive people, does not mean that FTC did not start investigation yet.
Search for records on FTC are on records of official complaints already opened by FTC... not investigations.
Satisfied? Go figure.