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Any possiblity of getting an mmo back ?

I'm sure it's highly unlikely but the F2P has to go !.......The Easy mode has to go !

Lord Of The Rings is a classic.  I regret I've only played the beta and never subscribed when the game was at it's peak.  Back then we had many choices for a real community based mmo.

Now, with the bleak choices we have, I would love to come crawling back to LOTRO.

I've tried, I've played LOTRO last year and didn't like anything about it . It's was crazy easy and this is flat out WRONG !.......I understand the creators of content change the difficulty from time to time, but no this is NOT GOOD.  Easy or hard now is not the point, it should never change.

Cash Shop or Subscription - This is flat out wrong too.  When you have web sites on  " how to get the most bang for your buck ", this shows dishonesty of a company.

The population is low, the LOTRO forums here on mmoprg.com are low...........How about a worthwhile risky move to give players an mmo back !



Comments

  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 21,555
    edited September 2015
    While you may personally dislike the current state of the game I wouldn't call it "wrong".

    Game companies have to change with the times too, if they never made changes they would have gone bankrupt and shut down years ago.

    Post edited by DMKano on
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,889
    DMKano said:
    While you may personally dislike the current state of the game I wouldn't call it "wrong".

    Game companies have to change with the times to, if the never made changes they would have gone bankrupt and shut down years ago.


    With my overall knowledge of this mmo web site that I believe paints a small picture of what state the mmo industry is at.  


    With that, I can safely state a few facts :

    - Players are spread out, forever searching for an mmo to call home.

    - Most are un happy and just putting up with a few titles. 

    - Not playing anything.


    Now is the time to reverse and make a bold change......Yes, change with the times again.

  • goboygogoboygo Member RarePosts: 2,088
    DMKano said:
    While you may personally dislike the current state of the game I wouldn't call it "wrong".

    Game companies have to change with the times to, if the never made changes they would have gone bankrupt and shut down years ago.


    They all wouldn't of gone bankrupt and shutdown just the bad ones, which is most of them by earlier standards. 

    With the literal avalanche of free games now available with the click of a button,  its apparent that the old formula doesn't work for the majority of gamers.  But the majority of today's gamers are interested in something completely different than what brought the early generation of gamers to the table.  Sure we all like "games" but that's where the similarities end.  From there its about who we are as a person.

    So older gamers are left looking at a sea of games, with impulse buy mechanics feeding a mass of people addicted to instant download instant gratification gamers.  And recently even when AAA titles try to bridge the gap (SWTOR, ESO, WILDSTAR) they found it to be an impossible task, they are two different markets, one massive (F2P) the other smaller but still viable (P2P).  We being of the later have to choose wisely and be far more patient because there are fewer games being made for our group. 

    My built in game filter removes 95% of the games being made today because they aren't being made for me.  I grew with a different set of principles and the key here EXPECTATIONS. Those things are generational, and can rarely be reprogrammed in a human.  Free, easy, highly accessible, enormously hand holding, vanity driven, highly stylized, highly sexualized, with the POTENTIAL for a HUGE player capital investment via the cash shop, is pretty much where the market stands today. NONE of which appeal to me, not a single part of the current business model.  But there are still many like me out there.

  • makasouleater69makasouleater69 Member UncommonPosts: 1,096
    edited September 2015
    goboygo said:
    DMKano said:
    While you may personally dislike the current state of the game I wouldn't call it "wrong".

    Game companies have to change with the times to, if the never made changes they would have gone bankrupt and shut down years ago.


    They all wouldn't of gone bankrupt and shutdown just the bad ones, which is most of them by earlier standards. 

    With the literal avalanche of free games now available with the click of a button,  its apparent that the old formula doesn't work for the majority of gamers.  But the majority of today's gamers are interested in something completely different than what brought the early generation of gamers to the table.  Sure we all like "games" but that's where the similarities end.  From there its about who we are as a person.

    So older gamers are left looking at a sea of games, with impulse buy mechanics feeding a mass of people addicted to instant download instant gratification gamers.  And recently even when AAA titles try to bridge the gap (SWTOR, ESO, WILDSTAR) they found it to be an impossible task, they are two different markets, one massive (F2P) the other smaller but still viable (P2P).  We being of the later have to choose wisely and be far more patient because there are fewer games being made for our group. 

    My built in game filter removes 95% of the games being made today because they aren't being made for me.  I grew with a different set of principles and the key here EXPECTATIONS. Those things are generational, and can rarely be reprogrammed in a human.  Free, easy, highly accessible, enormously hand holding, vanity driven, highly stylized, highly sexualized, with the POTENTIAL for a HUGE player capital investment via the cash shop, is pretty much where the market stands today. NONE of which appeal to me, not a single part of the current business model.  But there are still many like me out there.

    I wouldn't say there are too many, because there is already games that fit that. Ryzom, Project 1999, and swgemu, and all 3 of those put together have maybe 3000 people playing them. All 3 have no cash shop, all 3 have decent crafting, with SWG, and Ryzom being the best crafting in the MMO world. All 3 are ran by people who care more about the game than money. 

    Most importantly though, all 3 of those are really MMOs, and by that I mean the game play encourages, and forces you to play with other players. You can solo all 3 of those games, but you are gonna be at a serious disadvantage to people who group. All 3 also have the best communities in the genera. 

    Yet for all that, they only have 3000 people total...... Nope 99.99 percent of people, want credit card wars, with cash shops, that not only let you totally skip game play, by exp boosts, characters, and money. But some like AA,  eve, and UO  let you dominate the game, if you dump 1000s into it.  They also love Gambling boxes, just love them. 
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,396

    I'm sure it's highly unlikely but the F2P has to go !.......The Easy mode has to go !

    Lord Of The Rings is a classic.  I regret I've only played the beta and never subscribed when the game was at it's peak.  Back then we had many choices for a real community based mmo.

    Now, with the bleak choices we have, I would love to come crawling back to LOTRO.

    I've tried, I've played LOTRO last year and didn't like anything about it . It's was crazy easy and this is flat out WRONG !.......I understand the creators of content change the difficulty from time to time, but no this is NOT GOOD.  Easy or hard now is not the point, it should never change.

    Cash Shop or Subscription - This is flat out wrong too.  When you have web sites on  " how to get the most bang for your buck ", this shows dishonesty of a company.

    The population is low, the LOTRO forums here on mmoprg.com are low...........How about a worthwhile risky move to give players an mmo back !

    As others have said game companies have to adapt.

    As to your comment about crazy easy: a) it hasn't changed b) how far did you level - you know 1-20 is "tutorial" and you are not expected to find anything difficult / die. Above that the game gets "harder" and "benefits" from higher level characters not being able to obliterate mobs or totally avoid damage. Not saying the game is "hard" but its not "crazy easy".

    As far as community goes WarnerBros (who own Turbine)  are currently consolidating all their game operations into an EU and US data centre. This may or may not help "community" as and when its finished.

    Dishonesty of the company? You can play it for free with a carrot of being able to get more stuff; when the section of the wiki (?) if that is what you are talking about describes how to get 5 points here, 10 there or whatever, to unlock some of the content however requires thousands of points however it is clear that the company is looking to people to buy said content. Even if they subscribe! progress you need

    As for the forums being low - they are for just about every games

    I suspect you probably won't like it. I didn't the first time I tried - didn't make it out of the intro; I did give it a second try though which is why I can say its not "crazy easy" so if that is the reason - shrug.
  • goboygogoboygo Member RarePosts: 2,088
    edited September 2015
    ^  Your right, what I'm referring to is the existence of a recent MMO not made for the majority of today's F2P gamer's as qualified above,  there are a few in the works, but its going to be at LEAST a year before their playable.  So I just sit on the sidelines and watch the conveyor belt of F2P games roll by.    I do occasionally poke my nose into newer MMO's that are at least tolerable, but their depth is easily absorbed and extinguished within a few weeks time.
  • goboygogoboygo Member RarePosts: 2,088
    edited September 2015
    I miss the old forums.....
  • Gobstopper3DGobstopper3D Member RarePosts: 850
    I used to  love Lotro, but stopped playing after it went F2P.  I did come back a year later to check it out.  I don't think there was a screen I could open that didn't have a button or link to the CS and this was even with the optional sub.  When I left, I was in a kinship with well over 200 in it and usually 60+ active during peak times.  When I went back, it was gone and that was roughly 3 months after it went F2P.

    The game has gotten easier over time.  I can't stand the way it is now.  The game is a shell of what once made it great.  Populations are low and good luck trying to give any constructive criticism of the game in the lotro forums.  You will likely find yourself banned.

    I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.

  • H0urg1assH0urg1ass Member EpicPosts: 2,278
    DMKano said:
    While you may personally dislike the current state of the game I wouldn't call it "wrong".

    Game companies have to change with the times to, if the never made changes they would have gone bankrupt and shut down years ago.


    With my overall knowledge of this mmo web site that I believe paints a small picture of what state the mmo industry is at.  


    With that, I can safely state a few facts :

    - Players are spread out, forever searching for an mmo to call home.

    - Most are un happy and just putting up with a few titles. 

    - Not playing anything.


    Now is the time to reverse and make a bold change......Yes, change with the times again.

    I would venture to say that a lot of people here feel that way, but that a lot of people playing MMORPG's don't even know that "here" exists because they are busy playing their MMORPG's.

    Out of the 100 or so people that I play EVE with, and the 30 or so that I play AoC with, I'm the only one that visits these forums.  I know, cause I've brought it up and they don't know what I'm talking about.  I only visit these forums because I enjoy talking about games.  Most people just want to play them.
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,889
    H0urg1ass said:
    DMKano said:
    While you may personally dislike the current state of the game I wouldn't call it "wrong".

    Game companies have to change with the times to, if the never made changes they would have gone bankrupt and shut down years ago.


    With my overall knowledge of this mmo web site that I believe paints a small picture of what state the mmo industry is at.  


    With that, I can safely state a few facts :

    - Players are spread out, forever searching for an mmo to call home.

    - Most are un happy and just putting up with a few titles. 

    - Not playing anything.


    Now is the time to reverse and make a bold change......Yes, change with the times again.

    I would venture to say that a lot of people here feel that way, but that a lot of people playing MMORPG's don't even know that "here" exists because they are busy playing their MMORPG's.

    Out of the 100 or so people that I play EVE with, and the 30 or so that I play AoC with, I'm the only one that visits these forums.  I know, cause I've brought it up and they don't know what I'm talking about.  I only visit these forums because I enjoy talking about games.  Most people just want to play them.


    I understand what your saying, this here is a fraction of the mmo community.  I work with a lot of mmo players and no one knows about this site.......However.......It does seem to represent what's going on with every mmo.

    When the population of players start abandoning games, it seems to coincide here the same.

    When post release reviews start showing up on Youtube, it seems to coincide here as the same.

    The negativity of the mass population is about the same as we have posted here. 


    We just get to voice it.

  • Po_ggPo_gg Member RarePosts: 4,754
    H0urg1ass said:

    I would venture to say that a lot of people here feel that way, but that a lot of people playing MMORPG's don't even know that "here" exists because they are busy playing their MMORPG's.
    Yep, I play a lot of games with a different bunch of peeps, and I couldn't say 1 another who use forums. It's not even a new thing, back in the days was the same. "Why read forums, that's why you here, you read it anyways :wink: if there's something important you can tell us"

    Actually it wasn't the same, it was better. With the overall player count increased, and alongside the forum importance diminished (via so-called "social media"), I'd guess a much much smaller ratio of the playerbase use forums nowadays. Most people just play the games.


    As for the topic: the difficulty was discussed numerous times already. (in short, it's easier than it was at launch, exactly like every other game out there was made easier during the years...)
    Cash shop will stay, actually it will get a revamp soon... for following the trend mentioned above, they will make it easier :eh: as in easier to spend, especially the impulse purchases.
    Sub is still there, and got a few boons recently (mail, especially).
  • Gobstopper3DGobstopper3D Member RarePosts: 850
    I think this site gives a good indication of how a game is doing according to a certain type of gamer.  I don't think it a representation of the masses as a whole.  This site or any other aren't going to make or break a game.  It may help influence a certain type of gamer one way or another, but overall I doubt it has very little affect on a game and the general populations feeling about it.

    I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.

  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 6,618
    edited September 2015
    Good Luck. MMO market is a fool's gold mine. Companies thrive off of consumer confusion. They will only care about quality over quantity when there is less competition.
  • eye_meye_m Member UncommonPosts: 3,317

    I'm sure it's highly unlikely but the F2P has to go !.......The Easy mode has to go !

    Lord Of The Rings is a classic.  I regret I've only played the beta and never subscribed when the game was at it's peak.  Back then we had many choices for a real community based mmo.

    Now, with the bleak choices we have, I would love to come crawling back to LOTRO.

    I've tried, I've played LOTRO last year and didn't like anything about it . It's was crazy easy and this is flat out WRONG !.......I understand the creators of content change the difficulty from time to time, but no this is NOT GOOD.  Easy or hard now is not the point, it should never change.

    Cash Shop or Subscription - This is flat out wrong too.  When you have web sites on  " how to get the most bang for your buck ", this shows dishonesty of a company.

    The population is low, the LOTRO forums here on mmoprg.com are low...........How about a worthwhile risky move to give players an mmo back !




    One of the funniest things I've read in a long time.  Thanks.  I absolutely love it.

    All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

    I get banned in the forums for games I love, so lets see if I do better in the forums for games I hate.

    I enjoy the serenity of not caring what your opinion is.

    I don't hate much, but I hate Apple© with a passion. If Steve Jobs was alive, I would punch him in the face.

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,889
    eye_m said:

    I'm sure it's highly unlikely but the F2P has to go !.......The Easy mode has to go !

    Lord Of The Rings is a classic.  I regret I've only played the beta and never subscribed when the game was at it's peak.  Back then we had many choices for a real community based mmo.

    Now, with the bleak choices we have, I would love to come crawling back to LOTRO.

    I've tried, I've played LOTRO last year and didn't like anything about it . It's was crazy easy and this is flat out WRONG !.......I understand the creators of content change the difficulty from time to time, but no this is NOT GOOD.  Easy or hard now is not the point, it should never change.

    Cash Shop or Subscription - This is flat out wrong too.  When you have web sites on  " how to get the most bang for your buck ", this shows dishonesty of a company.

    The population is low, the LOTRO forums here on mmoprg.com are low...........How about a worthwhile risky move to give players an mmo back !




    One of the funniest things I've read in a long time.  Thanks.  I absolutely love it.

    If anything at all, I'm here for your entertainment :)
  • Viper482Viper482 Member EpicPosts: 2,770
    DMKano said:
    While you may personally dislike the current state of the game I wouldn't call it "wrong".

    Game companies have to change with the times to, if the never made changes they would have gone bankrupt and shut down years ago.


    With my overall knowledge of this mmo web site that I believe paints a small picture of what state the mmo industry is at.  


    With that, I can safely state a few facts :

    - Players are spread out, forever searching for an mmo to call home.

    - Most are un happy and just putting up with a few titles. 

    - Not playing anything.


    Now is the time to reverse and make a bold change......Yes, change with the times again.

    You will have to excuse Kano, he loves all the new crap f2p MMOs.
    Make MMORPG's Great Again!
  • SomethingUnusualSomethingUnusual Member UncommonPosts: 546
    If I recall, Lord of the Rings Online was one of the first of the subscription based games to implement a free to play model. Though there were several free to play games long before it... I wouldn't call it a change of times but a risk and gamble that Turbine took from the beginning. I would even go as far as saying they were pioneers of the model.

    To quote wikipedia (I would give my left arm for a more scholarly reference site...)

    In the late 2000s, many MMOs transitioned to the free-to-play model from subscriptions,[16] including subscription-based games such as The Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar, Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures, Dungeons & Dragons Online,[17] and Champions Online.[6] This move from a subscription based model to a free-to-play one has proven very beneficial in some cases. Star Wars: The Old Republic is a good example of a game that transitioned from subscription to free-to-play.[1] Turbine as of September 10, 2010 has given an F2P with Cash shop option to The Lord of the Rings Online which resulted in a tripling of profit.[18] Sony Online Entertainment's move to transition EverQuest from a subscription model into a hybrid F2P/subscription game was followed by a 125% spike in item sales, a 150% up-tick in unique log-ins, and over three times as many account registrations.[19]

    The movement of free-to-play MMOs into the mainstream also coincided with experimentation with other genres as well. The model was picked up by larger developers and more diverse genres, with games such as Battlefield Heroes,[8] Free Realms, Quake Live and Team Fortress 2[7] appearing in the late 2000s. The experimentation was not successful in every genre, however. Traditional real time strategy franchises such as Age of Empires and Command & Conquer both attempted free-to-play titles. Age of Empires Online was shut down in the midst of a tiny player base and stagnant revenue,[20] and Command & Conquer: Generals 2 was shut down in alpha due to negative reactions from players.[21]

    In 2011, revenue from free-to-play games overtook revenue from premium games in the top 100 games in Apple's App Store.[22] The number of people that spend money on in-game items in these games ranges from 0.5% to 6%, depending on a game's quality and mechanics. Even though this means that a large number of people will never spend money in a game, it also means that the people that do spend money could amount to a sizeable number due to the fact that the game was given away for free.[22] Indeed a report from mobile advertising company firm SWRV stated that only 1.5 percent of players opted to pay for in-game items, and that 50 percent of the revenue for such games often came from just ten percent of players.[23] Nevertheless the Washington Post noted that two such games, Clash of Clans and Game of War: Fire Age, were able to be able to afford Super Bowl spots in 2015 featuring big-name celebrities.[23] The latter, Game Of War, was in fact, part of a roughly $40 million dollar campaign starring model Kate Upton.


    What would this mean for the gameplay itself? I really don't know. Nevertheless, it happened, and it boosted the profits of most of the companies that followed suit.

    My opinion on gameplay difficulty is simply that I would love to see much harder content in every game. Even single player games have become way too easy save for a few exceptions such as the Batman: Arkham series and intentionally difficult games such as the Dark Souls series.

    The big question is, what constitutes difficulty? Memorization? Critical Thinking?

  • NukeGamerNukeGamer Member, AMA Guest UncommonPosts: 309
    DMKano said:
    While you may personally dislike the current state of the game I wouldn't call it "wrong".

    Game companies have to change with the times to, if the never made changes they would have gone bankrupt and shut down years ago.


    With my overall knowledge of this mmo web site that I believe paints a small picture of what state the mmo industry is at.  


    With that, I can safely state a few facts :

    - Players are spread out, forever searching for an mmo to call home.

    - Most are un happy and just putting up with a few titles. 

    - Not playing anything.


    Now is the time to reverse and make a bold change......Yes, change with the times again.

    I can safely say none of these are facts and actually opinions that have zero facts or basis to back up that opinion. 
  • Po_ggPo_gg Member RarePosts: 4,754
    edited September 2015
    If I recall, Lord of the Rings Online was one of the first of the subscription based games to implement a free to play model. Though there were several free to play games long before it... I wouldn't call it a change of times but a risk and gamble that Turbine took from the beginning. I would even go as far as saying they were pioneers of the model.

    To quote wikipedia (I would give my left arm for a more scholarly reference site...)
    You can keep the arm (that wiki won't help anyways :wink: ), since the statement above is fairly accurate. There were f2p games before, especially in the East. There were experiments too, with unlimited trials, free play to lvl15 or 20, etc. but indeed Turbine was the first one who converted a big-name title from sub to freemium (f2p with keeping the sub option).
    They did it without any "real" risk, DDO was on the green mile anyways, so either close, or f2p and then close if that fails :wink:  And they hit bullseye with it, DDO is still up and running, got several updates and making some profit even now 6 years later.

    LotRO was indeed a gamble as said above, since it was mostly healthy, but on a decline. Its f2p switch was fueled mostly just by "based on DDO it will bring in much more money if we switch". Which it did eventually.
    The "pioneers" title could be a fitting one, they implemented a model from scratch, and that model is still working in their games (with slight adjustments) just fine, and served as a cornerstone / reference point for later f2p switches in other games.

    (edit: and that wiki is very US-focused with that Sept. 10, since we switched later so that date is just for Turbine LotRO. Codies waited until all the bugs and errors are bugfixed, and only switched when US folks betatested the update for us :lol: )
  • seeyouspacec0wboyseeyouspacec0wboy Member UncommonPosts: 699
    edited September 2015
    Wait. So you only played beta...and you're so sure that this is a game you would love even it were no f2p and "easy mode?" Why do you have such emotion built up for a game that you only played beta in and then never came back to? That's so odd.

    Also, I haven't posted here in a minute, what the hell happened to the forums? Looks like they went back in time 10 years.

    Originally posted by Scagweed22
    is it the graphics? the repetativenesses? i mean what is the point? you could be so much more productive in real life
    Real life brings repetition and pointlessness too. The only thing real life offers is Great graphics. Its kinda expensive too and way to dependent on the cash shop. Totally pay to win as well. No thank you. Ill stick to my games.

  • Azaron_NightbladeAzaron_Nightblade Member EpicPosts: 4,727
    That game, along with DDO would be long dead and buried if it wasn't for F2P.
    Be grateful you still have them today instead of finding yet another thing to complain about.

    My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

    https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/

  • GardavsshadeGardavsshade Member UncommonPosts: 907
    edited September 2015
    Ozreth said:
    Wait. So you only played beta...and you're so sure that this is a game you would love even it were no f2p and "easy mode?" Why do you have such emotion built up for a game that you only played beta in and then never came back to? That's so odd.

    Also, I haven't posted here in a minute, what the hell happened to the forums? Looks like they went back in time 10 years.
    I won't speak for OP, but I can say this... was in Beta from December 2006 on, almost Founder (waiting on a paycheck and missed the cutoff by hours), played consistently until F2P conversion took place, argued quite a bit on the forums against it, got in a PM fight with Sapience and quit the game for over a year, came back to LotRO and have been playing ever since.

    I can say this with experience and you can quote me... LotRO has gotten noticeably easier and dumbed down since launch, on several levels and in various areas including traits, game mechanics, even Aggro Distance to Mobs has been reduced to now you can be close enough to an Orc to spit him in the eye and they won't aggro.

    The roving threats is a welcome addition to the game to make it feel more alive but that's not enough in my opinion, it's only a wax job on a car with a scratched up paint job with chips.

    I miss the original LotRO and I will be frank when I say I wasn't exactly happy with the original LotRO, because I had been looking forward to MEO... but I accepted what Turbine did and supported it... until F2P, and then I swallowed my pride and supported again... but it's almost pointless.

    Now add insult to injury... many of the Instances now won't allow groups (Fellowships) to do them together as a Group in a MMO should be able to... NO... we have to disband the Fellowship every blasted time we go into an Instance. It's like Turbine never heard of what MMOs were at all. Absolutely infuriating, especially since in Shadows of Angmar, the original edition of LotRO, grouping was supported 100%. The latter expacs do NOT follow suit.

    Just like SWTOR, WoW, and other MMOs, LotRO keeps chasing new customers and forgetting the customer they already have. Altering this and that with little regard for anything by the Quarterly Report.

    Yes, In my opinion, LotRO has indeed gone casual in a bad way. It's arguably not a MMO anymore. I see what the OP is referring to and it has caused me many a night of wondering why on Earth I started playing LotRO in the first place. There are place in LotRO and segments of the community still playing this game as a MMO but each year it slips further into shadow.

    I love LotRO, this is not my first MMO by no means (far from it), but this is the one I have been attached to the most. The decisions Turbine has made with this game sickens me sometimes.

    I would almost rather see this whole game close down than see what it has become in F2P. You can quote me on that especially.
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