No sane company would want to jump into this mess. Any smart business person simply interested in the IP would let this die and in a few years start from scratch.
I challenge ANYONE to name one part of what was produced that would entice a company to pay $1-$2 million to buy a piece of it. The engine is horrendous, they still have a ton of exposure to unfulfilled Kickstarter items and pre-paid game time, their staff is down to 3 people and the buzz is all negative. Realistically speaking, why would ANYONE invest as opposed to creating their own game from scratch? There is simply too much baggage and not enough up side.
I have said, the only thing with value remaining is the IP and maybe the few dozen players (less than 200 I'd guess) that would be a good base for alpha testing a new game.
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
I wonder how much Mr. Dancey made off with this time. When will folks learn not to trust him.
its not about not trusting him, its about not trusting these practices.
It would be quite the sight to see this happening to Star Citizen after the ridiculous amounts of dollars they got from players and the game is not even out.
Well put, I couldn't agree more. I backed the game right from the very start and it has proven to be one of the most disappointing experiences I've ever had the displeasure of dealing with.
Really, really glad I didn't purchase a DT account. I feel sorry for anyone who did.
No sane company would want to jump into this mess. Any smart business person simply interested in the IP would let this die and in a few years start from scratch.
I challenge ANYONE to name one part of what was produced that would entice a company to pay $1-$2 million to buy a piece of it. The engine is horrendous, they still have a ton of exposure to unfulfilled Kickstarter items and pre-paid game time, their staff is down to 3 people and the buzz is all negative. Realistically speaking, why would ANYONE invest as opposed to creating their own game from scratch? There is simply too much baggage and not enough up side.
I have said, the only thing with value remaining is the IP and maybe the few dozen players (less than 200 I'd guess) that would be a good base for alpha testing a new game.
Those 200 players you reference are the ones that lead the developers down this path of ruin. No not all of them of course, but the ones with the loudest voices. I do not believe that any sane developer would want the same folks to make up the core base for testing any new game.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Never feel sorry for people that spend money in kickstarters, as more than likely it was disposable income so no big deal for them, and second - they wilingly donated knowing the risks.
What about feeling sorry for people who play the beta, love the way a game is and buy a founders pack but then get hosed as the launch version makes major changes from the game they loved in beta? Is that ok? Did they "willingly donate knowing the risks"? Guess which game I'm referring to???
Personally I feel bad for those that bought into this one. It seemed this game had the support of the Pathfinder founding company and all we heard out of Ryan was rainbows and butterflies. If a kickstarter was going to make it, this one would have seemed like a solid bet.
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
Never feel sorry for people that spend money in kickstarters, as more than likely it was disposable income so no big deal for them, and second - they wilingly donated knowing the risks.
What about feeling sorry for people who play the beta, love the way a game is and buy a founders pack but then get hosed as the launch version makes major changes from the game they loved in beta? Is that ok? Did they "willingly donate knowing the risks"? Guess which game I'm referring to???
Personally I feel bad for those that bought into this one. It seemed this game had the support of the Pathfinder founding company and all we heard out of Ryan was rainbows and butterflies. If a kickstarter was going to make it, this one would have seemed like a solid bet.
if you buy a founders pack, you are still part of the problem. You could wait for the games release, or a free beta, try the game and then buy it at launch. I dont feel bad for anyone buying into alpha/beta/founders pack access either. Being desperate only tells companies they are doing it right (when they are clearly doing it wrong but you still support them).
There is nothing wrong with supporting a game if you think it's good or might be good. You've just gotta be prepared for it not to pan out. Happens. Just don't risk money you can't afford.
Never feel sorry for people that spend money in kickstarters, as more than likely it was disposable income so no big deal for them, and second - they wilingly donated knowing the risks.
What about feeling sorry for people who play the beta, love the way a game is and buy a founders pack but then get hosed as the launch version makes major changes from the game they loved in beta? Is that ok? Did they "willingly donate knowing the risks"? Guess which game I'm referring to???
Personally I feel bad for those that bought into this one. It seemed this game had the support of the Pathfinder founding company and all we heard out of Ryan was rainbows and butterflies. If a kickstarter was going to make it, this one would have seemed like a solid bet.
But, there was no beta, and you had to have backed the kick starter to even be in Alpha. That was one of the main problems with PFO, Ryan's refusal to have a real development process for the game. He was either completely clueless or the "cash grab" allegation is true (maybe both as well).
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
If that includes approaching Hasbro to include more of the Pathfinder IP, I don't see why that wouldn't be on the table.
That would never happen. Hasbro and Paizo are not friends. Hasbro (Wizards of the Coast) is doing really well lately with 5th edition. They have multiple video games based off their IP now (Sword Coast Legends about to come out.) Paizo of course could reach out. Hasbro's response would probably be something along the lines of 'die in a fire.'
Well, I am pretty sure Hasbro wouldn't mind buying up Paizo and add it to their portfolio but as long as they are independant that wont happen.
Wizards have kinda backtracked since they pulled back the open D20 license, that idea turned out to not be as great as they thought it was. They certainly don't like Pathfinder one bit, they lost a lot of money due to it in combinationwith the crap 4th edition was and they also lost a lot of status among older roleplayers which is pretty hard and a long time work to win back.
A lot of people thought Wizard betrayed D&D and moved over to Pathfinder. And I have a feeling that Wizard hoped for more from Neverwinter so they are probably doing the finger pyramid of evil contemplation right now and grinning.
IMO it would be best to give up,although the few that support the game would not think so.
I seriously don't like all the thousands of developers jumping into the gaming market with so few resources and money,it is not a good option for a Triple A game.
NEVER believe the fanbois hype,i don't know how to describe it in words but it happens everywhere in life.I always see groups of people that like to defend and grasp onto off the normal ideas and call them their own,like it is THEIR game or THEIR music or THEIR group or THEIR sport etc etc.
Now to be fair to this business,they did give EVERYONE a chance to check out their game unlike most devs that just want the money from testing and get a false sense of where their game is really at.It is always better to know the truth rather than hear constant fanbois banter about the next coming of ,well you know.However i think they didn't allow others to give feedback until they felt the game was in trouble,big mistake,you need to get the entire community involved with your game from day 1.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
If that includes approaching Hasbro to include more of the Pathfinder IP, I don't see why that wouldn't be on the table.
That would never happen. Hasbro and Paizo are not friends. Hasbro (Wizards of the Coast) is doing really well lately with 5th edition. They have multiple video games based off their IP now (Sword Coast Legends about to come out.) Paizo of course could reach out. Hasbro's response would probably be something along the lines of 'die in a fire.'
Well, I am pretty sure Hasbro wouldn't mind buying up Paizo and add it to their portfolio but as long as they are independant that wont happen.
Wizards have kinda backtracked since they pulled back the open D20 license, that idea turned out to not be as great as they thought it was. They certainly don't like Pathfinder one bit, they lost a lot of money due to it in combinationwith the crap 4th edition was and they also lost a lot of status among older roleplayers which is pretty hard and a long time work to win back.
A lot of people thought Wizard betrayed D&D and moved over to Pathfinder. And I have a feeling that Wizard hoped for more from Neverwinter so they are probably doing the finger pyramid of evil contemplation right now and grinning.
While that may be all true (and it is,) 5e is a MASSIVE success for them. It's beating their expectations in sales. I have absolutely no idea about the video game component of all of it. I do know Sword Coast Legends is getting rave reviews and it's based on the 5e ruleset.
As for Pathfinder, all they have is their IP (read: lore.)
You want to know what's really funny about all this? Ryan Dancey is the man responsible for the Open Gaming License that allowed for Pathfinder to be made in the first place. That means he's also the man responsible for the decision that ultimate bit Wizards in the ass. I don't blame him for that though of course. Wizards was honestly moronic in their decision making at that point (as you mention above.)
Never feel sorry for people that spend money in kickstarters, as more than likely it was disposable income so no big deal for them, and second - they wilingly donated knowing the risks.
What about feeling sorry for people who play the beta, love the way a game is and buy a founders pack but then get hosed as the launch version makes major changes from the game they loved in beta? Is that ok? Did they "willingly donate knowing the risks"? Guess which game I'm referring to???
Personally I feel bad for those that bought into this one. It seemed this game had the support of the Pathfinder founding company and all we heard out of Ryan was rainbows and butterflies. If a kickstarter was going to make it, this one would have seemed like a solid bet.
But, there was no beta, and you had to have backed the kick starter to even be in Alpha. That was one of the main problems with PFO, Ryan's refusal to have a real development process for the game. He was either completely clueless or the "cash grab" allegation is true (maybe both as well).
Well, in Ryan's own words, he did suggest a "normal" development plan initially but Lisa Stephens challenged him to do things differently:
"When I first approached Lisa about a Pathfinder MMO, I presented a plan roughly on par with the kind of development that had been the norm in the industry for the past 5 years: a $50+ million budget, a 3 to 5 year timeline, and a development staff of 50 to 75 people. One of Paizo's strengths is that they work very efficiently, and spend money when and where it counts the most. So Lisa took one look at that plan and challenged me to think outside the box. "Rather than telling me how to do it the way everyone else is doing it," she said, "tell me how to do it for the smallest budget possible while still achieving our goals." Those goals are to produce a game with the same high-quality standards for design, art, storytelling, and community involvement that Paizo has instilled into their Pathfinder products.
Since I live for challenges like that, I spent weeks re-engineering the plan, making it leaner and more efficient, and thus making it take less and less time, and cost less and less money. In the end, we arrived at what I consider to be a revolutionary approach, which I'm going to share with you today."
"When I first approached Lisa about a Pathfinder MMO, I presented a plan roughly on par with the kind of development that had been the norm in the industry for the past 5 years: a $50+ million budget, a 3 to 5 year timeline, and a development staff of 50 to 75 people. One of Paizo's strengths is that they work very efficiently, and spend money when and where it counts the most. So Lisa took one look at that plan and challenged me to think outside the box. "Rather than telling me how to do it the way everyone else is doing it," she said, "tell me how to do it for the smallest budget possible while still achieving our goals." Those goals are to produce a game with the same high-quality standards for design, art, storytelling, and community involvement that Paizo has instilled into their Pathfinder products.
Since I live for challenges like that, I spent weeks re-engineering the plan, making it leaner and more efficient, and thus making it take less and less time, and cost less and less money. In the end, we arrived at what I consider to be a revolutionary approach, which I'm going to share with you today."
LOL, how can someone be shut down that was never "launched" / "released"
Because according to Dancey, the game was not in alpha/beta and they were charging box+sub+cash shop for it, despite the fact that the game was half finished at best. (Nevermind that it had practically nothing to do with the IP on which it was based.)
LOL, how can someone be shut down that was never "launched" / "released"
Because according to Dancey, the game was not in alpha/beta and they were charging box+sub+cash shop for it, despite the fact that the game was half finished at best. (Nevermind that it had practically nothing to do with the IP on which it was based.)
Which makes this sad how developers can steal money and it seems get away with it. In the real world if we would do this we would be locked up for theft.
One of the number one rules is to add a %% to your predicted cost because it never costs what you predict it will.Sure you can have a well laid out plan to get ideas done exactly on time and within budget but guess what that means.
That means your community is NOT really involved because you cannot afford time to listen and make changes or improve on ideas.If at any time you stray outside the planned game design,you add time and cost.
I feel what it came down to was Ryan had a decent idea of how to make a decent game but just accepted a nickle and dime idea to give himself a job.Stream lining game design NEVER works,i can spot corner cutting in seconds of entering a game.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
LOL, how can someone be shut down that was never "launched" / "released"
Because according to Dancey, the game was not in alpha/beta and they were charging box+sub+cash shop for it, despite the fact that the game was half finished at best. (Nevermind that it had practically nothing to do with the IP on which it was based.)
Which makes this sad how developers can steal money and it seems get away with it. In the real world if we would do this we would be locked up for theft.
The developer(s), whether you consider that Goblin Works, Ryan Dancey, Paizo, Lisa Stevens or all of them collectively, have not "gotten away with it".
They have all all paid a price to their credibility in the PC gaming market, or will if they try to dip back in with a new product (regardless of genre).
PFO might actually become the poster child for what not to do, and it may severely hurt future kick starters.
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
Well, I am pretty sure Hasbro wouldn't mind buying up Paizo and add it to their portfolio but as long as they are independant that wont happen.
Wizards have kinda backtracked since they pulled back the open D20 license, that idea turned out to not be as great as they thought it was. They certainly don't like Pathfinder one bit, they lost a lot of money due to it in combinationwith the crap 4th edition was and they also lost a lot of status among older roleplayers which is pretty hard and a long time work to win back.
A lot of people thought Wizard betrayed D&D and moved over to Pathfinder. And I have a feeling that Wizard hoped for more from Neverwinter so they are probably doing the finger pyramid of evil contemplation right now and grinning.
While that may be all true (and it is,) 5e is a MASSIVE success for them. It's beating their expectations in sales. I have absolutely no idea about the video game component of all of it. I do know Sword Coast Legends is getting rave reviews and it's based on the 5e ruleset.
As for Pathfinder, all they have is their IP (read: lore.)
You want to know what's really funny about all this? Ryan Dancey is the man responsible for the Open Gaming License that allowed for Pathfinder to be made in the first place. That means he's also the man responsible for the decision that ultimate bit Wizards in the ass. I don't blame him for that though of course. Wizards was honestly moronic in their decision making at that point (as you mention above.)
Oh, yes, 5th ed is selling many times what 4th ed did so it is great news. It have however not gotten that many campaign books out so far, a little part of the Forgotten realms mainly but not a full campaign book yet.
A game like D&D is as strong as it's game worlds and worlds like Faerun and Krynn really is it's main selling point, there is where Pathfinder can't match them (I kinda feel that the campaign setting is Pathfinders weakest link).
I don't think that the open game license is the real reason for Pathfinder though, stealing mechanics is pretty standard, what the D20 license did was that it allowed others to make products that were meant to be played together with D&Ds core books without charging for the right to use the licens. And gameworlds and whatever you liked, the idea was that wizards would sell loads of players handbooks.
Pathfinder came because Wizards decided to scrap third edition and move closer to MMOs, something unpopular with older gamers that opened up a huge market for something closer to what many vets wanted. Wizards had the idea that they could get all the WoW fans to start playing P&P but it didn't turned out that way.
Personally I think it is good for us when there is 2 large games competing for the players, it forces the devs to make quality products, something TSR and Wizard often failed with in the past, there are a zillion products that never should have been released to the older D&D & AD&D versions.
Because according to Dancey, the game was not in alpha/beta and they were charging box+sub+cash shop for it, despite the fact that the game was half finished at best. (Nevermind that it had practically nothing to do with the IP on which it was based.)
Which makes this sad how developers can steal money and it seems get away with it. In the real world if we would do this we would be locked up for theft.
People knew what they were getting into from the start, Goblinworks were very clear that it was a low budget game from day 1 and if you paid monthly fees for an alpha it is your decision.
Star gate worlds, that was stealing. This is just people funding something they believed in, that sadly didn't work out.
Because according to Dancey, the game was not in alpha/beta and they were charging box+sub+cash shop for it, despite the fact that the game was half finished at best. (Nevermind that it had practically nothing to do with the IP on which it was based.)
Which makes this sad how developers can steal money and it seems get away with it. In the real world if we would do this we would be locked up for theft.
People knew what they were getting into from the start, Goblinworks were very clear that it was a low budget game from day 1 and if you paid monthly fees for an alpha it is your decision.
Star gate worlds, that was stealing. This is just people funding something they believed in, that sadly didn't work out.
I think they need to make some major changes with Crowdfunding. One, where they have to show where the money is going, like paychecks and how much each person is making. They want the money for unreleased and developing games then they need to show us where the money is going. That way everyone is up front so no under handed stuff is going on.
It would help with games like Star Citizen where they got a heck of a lot of money and no one really can see where it is going.
Comments
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
It would be quite the sight to see this happening to Star Citizen after the ridiculous amounts of dollars they got from players and the game is not even out.
and will throw money at some awesome game ideas that will never be released
and the "devs" of these games get rich and lol
Well put, I couldn't agree more. I backed the game right from the very start and it has proven to be one of the most disappointing experiences I've ever had the displeasure of dealing with.
Really, really glad I didn't purchase a DT account. I feel sorry for anyone who did.
I self identify as a monkey.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Personally I feel bad for those that bought into this one. It seemed this game had the support of the Pathfinder founding company and all we heard out of Ryan was rainbows and butterflies. If a kickstarter was going to make it, this one would have seemed like a solid bet.
I self identify as a monkey.
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
Wizards have kinda backtracked since they pulled back the open D20 license, that idea turned out to not be as great as they thought it was. They certainly don't like Pathfinder one bit, they lost a lot of money due to it in combinationwith the crap 4th edition was and they also lost a lot of status among older roleplayers which is pretty hard and a long time work to win back.
A lot of people thought Wizard betrayed D&D and moved over to Pathfinder. And I have a feeling that Wizard hoped for more from Neverwinter so they are probably doing the finger pyramid of evil contemplation right now and grinning.
I seriously don't like all the thousands of developers jumping into the gaming market with so few resources and money,it is not a good option for a Triple A game.
NEVER believe the fanbois hype,i don't know how to describe it in words but it happens everywhere in life.I always see groups of people that like to defend and grasp onto off the normal ideas and call them their own,like it is THEIR game or THEIR music or THEIR group or THEIR sport etc etc.
Now to be fair to this business,they did give EVERYONE a chance to check out their game unlike most devs that just want the money from testing and get a false sense of where their game is really at.It is always better to know the truth rather than hear constant fanbois banter about the next coming of ,well you know.However i think they didn't allow others to give feedback until they felt the game was in trouble,big mistake,you need to get the entire community involved with your game from day 1.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
As for Pathfinder, all they have is their IP (read: lore.)
You want to know what's really funny about all this?
Ryan Dancey is the man responsible for the Open Gaming License that allowed for Pathfinder to be made in the first place. That means he's also the man responsible for the decision that ultimate bit Wizards in the ass. I don't blame him for that though of course. Wizards was honestly moronic in their decision making at that point (as you mention above.)
From GW blog dec. 6, 2011
Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event
4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.
http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/
Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!
That means your community is NOT really involved because you cannot afford time to listen and make changes or improve on ideas.If at any time you stray outside the planned game design,you add time and cost.
I feel what it came down to was Ryan had a decent idea of how to make a decent game but just accepted a nickle and dime idea to give himself a job.Stream lining game design NEVER works,i can spot corner cutting in seconds of entering a game.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
They have all all paid a price to their credibility in the PC gaming market, or will if they try to dip back in with a new product (regardless of genre).
PFO might actually become the poster child for what not to do, and it may severely hurt future kick starters.
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
A game like D&D is as strong as it's game worlds and worlds like Faerun and Krynn really is it's main selling point, there is where Pathfinder can't match them (I kinda feel that the campaign setting is Pathfinders weakest link).
I don't think that the open game license is the real reason for Pathfinder though, stealing mechanics is pretty standard, what the D20 license did was that it allowed others to make products that were meant to be played together with D&Ds core books without charging for the right to use the licens. And gameworlds and whatever you liked, the idea was that wizards would sell loads of players handbooks.
Pathfinder came because Wizards decided to scrap third edition and move closer to MMOs, something unpopular with older gamers that opened up a huge market for something closer to what many vets wanted. Wizards had the idea that they could get all the WoW fans to start playing P&P but it didn't turned out that way.
Personally I think it is good for us when there is 2 large games competing for the players, it forces the devs to make quality products, something TSR and Wizard often failed with in the past, there are a zillion products that never should have been released to the older D&D & AD&D versions.
People knew what they were getting into from the start, Goblinworks were very clear that it was a low budget game from day 1 and if you paid monthly fees for an alpha it is your decision.
Star gate worlds, that was stealing. This is just people funding something they believed in, that sadly didn't work out.
It would help with games like Star Citizen where they got a heck of a lot of money and no one really can see where it is going.
Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event
4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.
http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/
Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!