Dancey was definitely the ringleader, but the community is plenty toxic even without him being around.
There is a specific group of individuals that persist with the same toxic behavior and rabid, blind fanboyism that has been ongoing since the beginning. I posted numerous warnings regarding Ryan Dancey on this forum months ago (with links to back up my statements), all of which were directly related to his work history over the course of the last decade.
Regardless of those warnings, certain people still chose to ignore them and continued to act as though he was god's gift to gaming. The savior of the sandbox mmorpg! All hail the king, baby!
Well well, look where we are now! Tsk tsk...I hate to say I told you so, but I did.
Everything I said about him, in a effort to inform people so that they didn't get hoodwinked by someone known for being a piece of shit, who has no issues getting his hands dirty to further his own personal agenda, turned out to be entirely accurate.
The damage has been done though, and nothing short of a miracle will reverse that at this point.
I've been with you there. But, some of the most rabid Dancey fans have gone silent, or virtually silent. Some will probably flock to his next destined to fail project.
After Friday's meeting, I noticed a few cracks in the strict adherence to the design document he created. I'm hoping that Lisa comes around and sees it as a non starter (at least now she has proof of that) and she focuses on maintaining the integrity of the IP, but willing to sacrifice any aspect of the game in its current state, or even the whole thing if a new backer requires that.
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
"It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling." - Michael Bitton Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about." - SEANMCAD
One of the issues was that Ryan, and many of the members of the echo chamber, would not accept the fact that PFO has competition. He (they) believed that PFO was such a special, little snowflake and any suggestion that it was not or that it had serious competition was met with strong resentment and condemnation.
Even ent in the cases where it could be demonstrated that they were wrong in how a system was working, they would at best claim that it was a corner case. At worse they would say it was lies or the spreading of misinformation.
That was the community environment that Ryan had created. That coming to an end is by far another reason that PFO has a better chance in moving forward.
I've had some hesitation, to take one of Tyncale's DT invites, because of Ryan's departure, But I don't really see how the game could come back, and even so, I'm not sure the next developer will keep DT accounts alive.
One of the issues was that Ryan, and many of the members of the echo chamber, would not accept the fact that PFO has competition. He (they) believed that PFO was such a special, little snowflake and any suggestion that it was not or that it had serious competition was met with strong resentment and condemnation.
Even ent in the cases where it could be demonstrated that they were wrong in how a system was working, they would at best claim that it was a corner case. At worse they would say it was lies or the spreading of misinformation.
That was the community environment that Ryan had created. That coming to an end is by far another reason that PFO has a better chance in moving forward.
I've had some hesitation, to take one of Tyncale's DT invites, because of Ryan's departure, But I don't really see how the game could come back, and even so, I'm not sure the next developer will keep DT accounts alive.
I have to admit I was dabbling with the idea of subbing a new account, not purchasing one of the incredibly over priced DT accounts, but an account that would cost just $15. 00. I find myself not confident the servers will be up come October. Since I would expect if they do get another backer, that new backer will likely want to start from scratch, starting an account now would be a total waste. As for some of us with a lot of prepaid time, I'm hoping a new developer would honor that. But if not my loss will be about 15 months of prepaid time or $150.00. I guess it could have been a lot worse, I could have bought a $5000 tavern or a $500 Avatar of PFO Forums which don't exist. Man this really is an F'ng mess.
I hope Lisa finds a buyer and is willing to reset from near scratch.
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
Did I make it up in my mind or did they at some point say they definitely had enough money to bring this to Open Enrollment, income from players would only help them get there faster?
Did I make it up in my mind or did they at some point say they definitely had enough money to bring this to Open Enrollment, income from players would only help them get there faster?
You didn't make it up, but the original statement was based on flawed information. They had one or more backers that either were never as firm as they thought, or that pull out at some point after the kickstarter, leaving them with around 20-30% less investment than they were expecting.
Logically, what you just stated does not fully make sense. Here is why:
Their budget was $4,000,000 (that's my recollection.. feel free to correct)
They stated they could deliver an Open Enrollment without the Kickstarter
The Kickstarter delivered almost $1.1M
If an investor backed out and left them 20-30% less (for which there are legal pursuits) that would equate to roughly the Kickstarter amount
If they could deliver the game without the Kickstarter they could have delivered it without this mystery investor who backed out.
Now that said, it's quite possible that they had someone pull a million dollar investment and that sure would hurt, BUT where they really fell short was in the player base. Remember when they were going to LIMIT the players to something like 4200 a month? For the first 9 months?
Do the math on that x $50 an account.. + $15 a month sub.. + associated cash shop purchases. That number quickly dwarfs the Kickstarter or the mystery investor.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I guess it could have been a lot worse, I could have bought a $5000 tavern or a $500 Avatar of PFO Forums which don't exist. Man this really is an F'ng mess.
I hope Lisa finds a buyer and is willing to reset from near scratch.
Just as a note, the Hellknights Most Wanted avatars are up on the Paizo messageboards; I'll go make a post in one of the current threads to show off mine. For me, though, the biggest draw is having Deianira in the Emerald Spire encounter tables; since reports are that the wanted posters are done, I expect that's a done deal as well. It gives me a warm feeling to know I've become a tiny little part of Golarion lore.
I don't believe that is true. The Pathfinder IP is quite popular. Your statement may be more accurate by adding "without wanting to make major changes to the design document and possibly scrapping the entire game and starting from scratch.
To be perfectly honest, I don't see how anyone with experience with MMOs in the past five or more years, could say that any aspect of PFO was designed or implemented well.
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
I don't believe that is true. The Pathfinder IP is quite popular. Your statement may be more accurate by adding "without wanting to make major changes to the design document and possibly scrapping the entire game and starting from scratch.
To be perfectly honest, I don't see how anyone with experience with MMOs in the past five or more years, could say that any aspect of PFO was designed or implemented well.
Agreed. I share the opinion that this game will completely fail without scrapping/re-writing the current design document.
As far as implementation goes, there is NO SYSTEM, in the entirety of PFO today, that is bug free. Not a single one. Those systems could have been implemented worse, if implementing them worse had been the entire goal of the project.
Further, I think it was a mistake for Lisa to state they would hold to the original design document, because given that has failed, why would you continue with it? The only reason I can think of is that there is some legal need, ala Kickstarter. Might not be, but that's the only reason I can think of.
If they really want to turn the ship around and avoid the reef, they need to change their heading 180 degrees. Not 8 degrees.
In MMO design, there is direct correlation between the following: in-game mechanics/features, target demographic size/paying customers, and financial viability. Ryan went through the process of design, and either through malicious intent or incompetence, managed to select the right set of features that reduced all of those to their absolute lowest level. How so? The in-game mechanics conflict at a logical level, never mind implementation issues. The entire premise is illogical and does not stand up to any scrutiny of any kind. This has been proven repeatedly by hundreds of attempts to educate Ryan on the PFO/Paizo forums since 2011. He has directly acknowledged these logical issues, dismissed them, and yet continued to burn investment money for over 3 years. The demographic is hundreds of blind fanboi's. That's their paying customers. Thousands? Not a chance. I dare any Goblinworks employee, past or present to confirm or claim they had more than 100 unique account/IP logins per day, on average, in June, July and August of 2015. Financial viability is trivial to determine ahead of time, and they knew, back in March, they didn't have enough money. They couldn't not know, given their public plan and how things were not progressing. That they didn't do anything to both inform their existing customers, and everyone else financially invested in the project, at that time? Unethical at best, criminal at worst.
It is irresponsible to use "creative vision" as an excuse for financially irresponsible behavior. We're past the age of Patronage.
In your deconstruction of PFO, what good did it do to refer to an entire, and quite varied, group as "blind fanbois?"
What good it did or didn't do is irrelevant, they are words, take them with a grain of salt and stop being so damned sensitive. He wanted to make a point and he did just that, purpose served.
Regardless of how gold chose to word it (for the record I would have said the same, using the same words, like I have previously), he is right. How can you still not see that after all this time? [mod edit]
Part of my motivation (a very tiny part) even includes the fact that my supporting PFO bothers some people. I don't really like that part of myself, but I continue to indulge it.
What if I told you that people want the game to succeed like you do. What if I told you that their frustration with people that don't challenge the business model, game design, implementation was BECAUSE they wanted the game to succeed. The point is that this is a business, not a charity. In business you have competition. What Ryan Dancey did was alienate a player base that would of supported the game and then abused those that stuck by him, the game and the company.
The simple fact that abilities were changed or removed and people wasted EXP (time = money) without a reset on skills is outrageous. Compared to any other game company or business model it is outrageous. It can not be justified. That reason alone is why a majority of players wouldn't back or invest in a game like this. Trust is broken. Blindly supporting that broken trust, just looks like they are taking advantage of those that are left until the inevitable happens.
The game needs massive change. In design, in implementation and the business model. Anyone whom doesn't see that or promote that is doing the game, the community still there a disservice.
Comments
After Friday's meeting, I noticed a few cracks in the strict adherence to the design document he created. I'm hoping that Lisa comes around and sees it as a non starter (at least now she has proof of that) and she focuses on maintaining the integrity of the IP, but willing to sacrifice any aspect of the game in its current state, or even the whole thing if a new backer requires that.
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
If they hope to find a publisher or investor they are delusional. I doubt anyone will touch this toxic pile of waste.
This Project needs to be scrapped and started over. It has nothing to do with the original Pathfinder.
Now they want more money?
- They had a Kickstarter to get money to make a Proof of concept.
- They had a Kickstarter for the actual game.
- They had Buy to Play.
- They had Founders Packs.
- They had a Subscription.
I think it might be time to just let it go..."It's pretty simple, really. If your only intention in posting about a particular game or topic is to be negative, then yes, you should probably move on. Voicing a negative opinion is fine, continually doing so on the same game is basically just trolling."
- Michael Bitton
Community Manager, MMORPG.com
"As an online discussion about Star Citizen grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Derek Smart approaches 1" - MrSnuffles's law
"I am jumping in here a bit without knowing exactly what you all or talking about."
- SEANMCAD
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
I hope Lisa finds a buyer and is willing to reset from near scratch.
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
- Their budget was $4,000,000 (that's my recollection.. feel free to correct)
- They stated they could deliver an Open Enrollment without the Kickstarter
- The Kickstarter delivered almost $1.1M
- If an investor backed out and left them 20-30% less (for which there are legal pursuits) that would equate to roughly the Kickstarter amount
- If they could deliver the game without the Kickstarter they could have delivered it without this mystery investor who backed out.
Now that said, it's quite possible that they had someone pull a million dollar investment and that sure would hurt, BUT where they really fell short was in the player base. Remember when they were going to LIMIT the players to something like 4200 a month? For the first 9 months?Do the math on that x $50 an account.. + $15 a month sub.. + associated cash shop purchases. That number quickly dwarfs the Kickstarter or the mystery investor.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
To be perfectly honest, I don't see how anyone with experience with MMOs in the past five or more years, could say that any aspect of PFO was designed or implemented well.
Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....
As far as implementation goes, there is NO SYSTEM, in the entirety of PFO today, that is bug free. Not a single one. Those systems could have been implemented worse, if implementing them worse had been the entire goal of the project.
Further, I think it was a mistake for Lisa to state they would hold to the original design document, because given that has failed, why would you continue with it? The only reason I can think of is that there is some legal need, ala Kickstarter. Might not be, but that's the only reason I can think of.
If they really want to turn the ship around and avoid the reef, they need to change their heading 180 degrees. Not 8 degrees.
In MMO design, there is direct correlation between the following: in-game mechanics/features, target demographic size/paying customers, and financial viability. Ryan went through the process of design, and either through malicious intent or incompetence, managed to select the right set of features that reduced all of those to their absolute lowest level. How so?
The in-game mechanics conflict at a logical level, never mind implementation issues. The entire premise is illogical and does not stand up to any scrutiny of any kind. This has been proven repeatedly by hundreds of attempts to educate Ryan on the PFO/Paizo forums since 2011. He has directly acknowledged these logical issues, dismissed them, and yet continued to burn investment money for over 3 years.
The demographic is hundreds of blind fanboi's. That's their paying customers. Thousands? Not a chance. I dare any Goblinworks employee, past or present to confirm or claim they had more than 100 unique account/IP logins per day, on average, in June, July and August of 2015.
Financial viability is trivial to determine ahead of time, and they knew, back in March, they didn't have enough money. They couldn't not know, given their public plan and how things were not progressing.
That they didn't do anything to both inform their existing customers, and everyone else financially invested in the project, at that time? Unethical at best, criminal at worst.
It is irresponsible to use "creative vision" as an excuse for financially irresponsible behavior. We're past the age of Patronage.
What good it did or didn't do is irrelevant, they are words, take them with a grain of salt and stop being so damned sensitive. He wanted to make a point and he did just that, purpose served.
Regardless of how gold chose to word it (for the record I would have said the same, using the same words, like I have previously), he is right. How can you still not see that after all this time? [mod edit]
The simple fact that abilities were changed or removed and people wasted EXP (time = money) without a reset on skills is outrageous. Compared to any other game company or business model it is outrageous. It can not be justified. That reason alone is why a majority of players wouldn't back or invest in a game like this. Trust is broken. Blindly supporting that broken trust, just looks like they are taking advantage of those that are left until the inevitable happens.
The game needs massive change. In design, in implementation and the business model. Anyone whom doesn't see that or promote that is doing the game, the community still there a disservice.