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CEO claims frustration that "there doesn't seem to be any way to review the game objectively"

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  • goldwheatgoldwheat Member UncommonPosts: 5
    Respec would definitely help, @Bluddwolf .

    Not enough bad can be said about this game, at this stage in development.  Every aspect of gameplay, every system, every mechanic has bugs.  At $15/month, they're committing a crime.
    • World geometry has broken welds.
    • Combat animations don't play properly.  Or at all.  For PC's or NPC's.
    • NPC Pathing is broken, pathing exploits abound. (especially in mountainous terrain)
    • No emotes. (no animations, no text emotes)
    • No friend list.
    • No guild/settlement chat.
    • Particle effects don't animate or display properly. (and are horrible, to boot!)
    • Sounds are ... yeah, for 2 months sound distance was set to -1 so every cast was heard throughout the entire hex at 100% volume.  Sound is terrible in general, breaks immersion, too quiet, too loud, inappropriate for attack type, etc.
    • Combat has incredibly high latency, for such a simple game.  I shudder to think what it will be like with any actual player load.  There is a minimum of 250ms of latency for all attacks, regardless of your actual Internet latency.
    • GPU load for such a simple game is insanely high.  I've never seen a game with such terrible optimization.
    • There is no water in the rivers.  In the "River Kingdoms".
    • Someone mentioned the world lit by a single bulb.  Accurate, and cheesy.
    • Recent combat changes completely changed the game (they changed EVERY FEAT), absolutely no chance of a respec, ever. Kiss that 7+ months of XP goodbye, you're useless now.
    • Crowdforging is a facade joke.  They have a plan, and they're developing to that plan, ONLY.  What players want?  They're not interested.  What would expand the demographic?  They're not interested.  What would make actual money?  They're not interested.  The amount of ideas expressed on their forums could be used to make 3 high-pop self sustaining online games.  All ignored.
    • Horrible forum software.  The worst I've ever seen.  No moderation.  Toxic behavior encouraged.  The way the vets treat everyone, the devs included?  Breaks every TOS/EULA ever on any moderated forum today.
    • No details provided on how many developers are working on the game, ever.  What's the number?  2? 3?  They don't have money for even that many with so few subs, but they'll never tell, because it would crush the fragile community like the cracked egg it is.
    • No interiors for buildings (except Inns)
    • No underground areas for anything.
    • No dungeons. No interior combat areas of any kind.
    • No non-lethal combat. (no duels)
    • PvP entirely pointless, ganking for the lolz, murder sim at it's finest, despite specifically stating during Kickstarter it would never be that.
    • No logging.  Very limited scrollback.
    • Chat interface is an abomination.  An intern on a weekend could do better.
    • No ignore (not on the forums, not in-game)
    • No mechanics to prevent stalking, harassment, bullying, griefing, etc.  None.  Zero.  A serious problem, completely ignored.
    • It's not Eve.  It's not Eve with swords.   It's not a reasonable hand drawn facsimile of Eve with swords.  There is no comparison you can draw, in any objective manner, that this game is in any way like Eve save for one:  ganking for the lolz.  Hooray?
    • New players can be killed by anyone, at any time, even in the starting areas.  Ryan has said multiple times there is no safe zone in PFO, none.  Their only guideline is:  We would rather you didn't kill players in the starting village (a 10m circle), but we won't stop you.  yeah, that'll keep the new subs rolling in.
    • The entire concept of localized banks and auction houses is crushing the economy instead of encouraging it.  As everyone who has played a game in the past that tried this knows, these concepts are the gushings of inexperienced armchair theorycrafters.  Not proven industry professionals.
    • They claim the game is not alpha or beta, yet make sweeping massive changes that you can only make in alpha or beta, and retain your customers.  Yeah, guess what Ryan?  Those customers you're abusing AND making them pay?  They have limits.
    • 8th grade math can demonstrate how many subs they'll need to keep the lights on.  If daily activity is any indication, they're at a fraction of a percentage of what they need.  This strongly indicates the game is a slowly rotting corpse, it's just not a skeleton yet.  But they'll never say how many subs they actually have, because that would be the iceberg that sinks the ship for good.
    • Finally, you know why people are paying the sub?  Because they hope Ryan will be fired, the design document will finally be shown to the crowdforging zealots, and they'll be rewarded for enduring the Trial of Tears.  IOW, the only reason people are paying is the glimmer of hope that $15/mo will pay off, either in resale of the account, or a complete overhaul of the game in the future.
    IMHO?  This game, since Jan 1, 2015, has done nothing but lower the bar for the entire genre, insult the kickstarter backers, and ultimately waste a colossal amount of time for all "customers" involved.  And it has permanently harmed the Pathfinder brand, as a bonus.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,710
    @goldwheat Wow. That is one of the best posts I have seen on any site in a long time.I tip my hat.

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • SamhaelSamhael Member RarePosts: 1,221
    LOL. I see the "value in the Crowdforging experience" but didn't see the value in the Pathfinder Online game. I forced myself to spend 8 hours in game to get a decent feel but it felt nothing at all like the P&P version. I didn't enjoy the time and couldn't recommend anyone spend 10 minutes playing much less spending a dime on it. 
  • GolbezTheLionGolbezTheLion Member UncommonPosts: 347
    @goldwheat I concur with Slap, this is one of the best posts I've read in a very, very long time.

    Well written and informative, to say the least. Sums up my thoughts on the state of the game perfectly.
  • ThebeastttThebeasttt Member RarePosts: 1,130
    I feel like I'm reading a thread about Vanguard. This is a blast from the past!
  • BluddwolfBluddwolf Member UncommonPosts: 355
    edited August 2015
    Unfortunately any discussion to make changes that might encourage more players to not only try the game, but to perhaps even subscribe to it has been met with a good amount of rejection and even hostility.

    Recently a player, with perhaps one friend and also with a second account toon decided that his level of boredom required that he do some PvP during a server event sponsored by Pathfinder University (a player group dedicated to assisting new players).  This group of two started to PvP the group, killing a few and being killed a few times themselves.  They were roundly ostracized and even kicked out of their settlements for violating the unwritten rules of no PvP during PFU events.  

    The problem with these events, which I have attended a few, is that their outcome is assured and the engagement with the content is mind dumbingly boring.  

    The only thing that made the event memorable was that these few made it so.  If it were not for my settlement, allowing them to be sponsored and have a place to train, they would have been forced from the game.  

    If anyone has any interest in trying the game for the trial period (15 days) I encourage you to use your two 1000xp alts to train up a few basic skills and then PvP early and often.  Use your trainable character to learn other aspects of the game.  You will most likely have more fun with your untrainable PvP alts.  Mind you, you will be easy to kill but this game really needs more chaos.


    Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] UncommonPosts: 0
    edited August 2015
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  • BluddwolfBluddwolf Member UncommonPosts: 355
    caldeathe said:
    Bluddwolf said:
    Unfortunately any discussion to make changes that might encourage more players to not only try the game, but to perhaps even subscribe to it has been met with a good amount of rejection and even hostility.

    Recently a player, with perhaps one friend and also with a second account toon decided that his level of boredom required that he do some PvP during a server event sponsored by Pathfinder University (a player group dedicated to assisting new players).  This group of two started to PvP the group, killing a few and being killed a few times themselves.  They were roundly ostracized and even kicked out of their settlements for violating the unwritten rules of no PvP during PFU events.
    Not accurate Bludd. They were kicked out of two different settlements. Not for violating unwritten terms, but for continuing to do so after their settlement leadership required them to stop. One neutral settlement, and one evil settlement, both found them unwilling to follow the settlement's rules. The PvP against the University, during a live event at Gencon, was not "becasue they were bored," it was intentional and recorded for a video blog. They also (In my opinion) taunted their victims, and others, in chat, which is generally frowned upon by quite a few gamers.
    Two of the players killed by them were from my settlement, and one of the two was glad for the excitement.  The other is still a bit upset, but he is allowed to have his revenge and with our assistance at any time.  

    I watched the videos, and it really didn't strike me as a big deal.  It was two characters vs. what, 15 - 20?  

    Which would have been better for the Gen Con demonstration?

    A.  Watching an organized escalation run vs. stationary groups of poor AI mobs, with no real risk and a guaranteed outcome of victory.

    B.  Watching an organized escalation run get interrupted by a pair of rogue warriors (going full Chaotic Evil) and adding some risk and unpredictability to the Gen Con demonstration.

    The reaction to the event should have been to take advantage of it and make it a selling point.  It is advertised as an Open World PVP game.  Whomever was at Gen Con should have pointed that out and said, "You see, you never can tell when other players will generate your most challenging content."  

    Notes:  Whether it was one settlement or two, irrelevant.  Why they were kicked out, specifically, also irrelevant.  

    PS:  Our settlement benefited by gaining a handful of players willing to add a bit of excitement to an otherwise very boring game.  PFO could use a lot more PVP focused players willing to play that way.  

    As for "taunting" in chat, I'm sure it did not rise to the level of being punishable because the devs would have done something about it.  

    Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....

  • GolbezTheLionGolbezTheLion Member UncommonPosts: 347
    edited August 2015
    caldeathe said:
    There are lots of perfectly valid opinions there
    You seem to be confusing opinions with facts.

    You didn't waste any time picking apart whatever you could though, as usual. At least you're consistent, nobody could ever fault you for that I suppose.



  • NeVeRLiFtNeVeRLiFt Member UncommonPosts: 380
    @goldwheat  I concur!

    Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
    Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
    Waiting on: Lost Ark
    Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?

  • FdzzaiglFdzzaigl Member UncommonPosts: 2,433
    A review is by definition an opinion piece and not objective. Expecting objectivity is stupid.

    How informed the writer is about the game and the genre's history is of course important. You wouldn't normally trust the opinion of an uninformed person about other life matters either.

    Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!

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  • PottedPlant22PottedPlant22 Member RarePosts: 794
    Goldwheat, you perfectly stated what I am was thinking in regards to this game. 
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  • BluddwolfBluddwolf Member UncommonPosts: 355
    caldeathe said:
    I don't disagree with most of what you say, Bludd, and I don't feel any urge to make any assessment of whether what they did was good for the game or not. I simply pointed out that the actual reason you gave for them being kicked out of the two previous settlements was false. They openly taunted people in chat, going so far as to infer the previous settlement they'd been in (Ozem's Vigil) were losers because they accepted them and let them steal a mule load of lesser tokens and starter gear from their settlement vault. They behaved as opportunists who aren't interested in playing by the rules of the settlements they joined, openly admitted that they would steal from their settlement's to get ahead if given the chance, and now have you painting them as victims of settlements that won't let them play their preferred style.
    Fair enough... it wasn't really my point to paint them as "victims" per say, they weren't victims because they chose to do what they did.  I knew nothing of the stealing from settlement vaults, but I accept your word on that because they are EVE players and that sort of thing will take place if given the opportunity.

    That actually goes back to a time when some of us had warned that in courting players for other MMOs, they would bring the culture of those MMOs with them.  The best way in my (and other's) opinions to counter that was to prepare for it, but not to ask for devs to create mechanics to prevent it.

    I'm sure your settlement has learned a valuable lesson, and no longer grants open access to valuable resources.  There are some in the PFO community that would say that is "giving into or accepting toxic behavior", but if PFO is going to be an Open World PVP game and with territorial control and conquest as the pinnacle of its end game, prepare for toxic behavior or lose.  

    This conversation is better served to be in the other thread:  What changes need to be made..

    Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] UncommonPosts: 0
    edited August 2015
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  • BringsliteBringslite Member UncommonPosts: 75
    edited September 2015

    There was a character that joined Ozem's Vigil and left the day after. His character name was/is Rexterra. I spent maybe an hour teaching him the game and he seemed appreciative about that. He left Ozem's and joined Golgotha. He was not booted from Golgotha as were the characters of the others. At least not that weekend/Monday. I do know that he was warned and given a "last chance" by leadership in Golgotha.

    The bank: there is a bug that causes the "settlement vault" to be accessible to any settlement member despite whatever controls that you set it at. We were aware of that. As we don't use it (normally), the only thing that could possibly be taken would have been a backpack (or less)  of things gathered by another very new player. We didn't notice anything missing at all.

    Bluddwolf,

    if you leave open or give access to players and they empty vaults, that is the settlement manager's fault. That is perfectly fine as far as I am concerned. If players take advantage of bugs, then they are operating outside of acceptable avenues. There is no lesson to learn here. Just one obnoxious player that I am glad is gone from my roster. I would  much rather have players like Zycor (the PVPer) in the game than players that cheat.

    The "cold shoulder" that Zycor got for how he acts was pure sandbox. It was dealt out by almost all the various orgs and despite their different play styles. You can't have it both ways. You never cease writing about sandboxes, emergent behavior, and consequences. That was all that Zycor faced. The same thing that you want/wanted for PfO.

    No more "BOX" fee. Free 15 day trials at: goblinworks.com/download/
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  • BluddwolfBluddwolf Member UncommonPosts: 355
    OMG, I thought this board was dead.....  

    Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....

  • FirstKnight117FirstKnight117 Member UncommonPosts: 106
    @goldwheat Dang, I just started *thinking* about that list, and you already have it packaged and ready to go <grin>

    Fine. Hopefully with a new CEO etc. maybe that list can be addressed. Maybe.
  • IsilithTehrothIsilithTehroth Member UncommonPosts: 450
    What realistically should happened is two or more reviewers one that likes that type of genre and one that doesn't to give their valid fair opinions on what needs to be improved, changes, is fine or is exceedingly good. This 1 reviewer per game is a bit bias as it is.

    MurderHerd

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,710
    What realistically should happened is two or more reviewers one that likes that type of genre and one that doesn't to give their valid fair opinions on what needs to be improved, changes, is fine or is exceedingly good. This 1 reviewer per game is a bit bias as it is.
    MMORPG actually DID have two people.  The first one said it would be rated below a 5... but wanted a second person to review to "be fair". 

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

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  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 2,848
    goldwheat said:
    Respec would definitely help, @Bluddwolf .

    Not enough bad can be said about this game, at this stage in development.  Every aspect of gameplay, every system, every mechanic has bugs.  At $15/month, they're committing a crime.
    • World geometry has broken welds.
    • Combat animations don't play properly.  Or at all.  For PC's or NPC's.
    • NPC Pathing is broken, pathing exploits abound. (especially in mountainous terrain)
    • No emotes. (no animations, no text emotes)
    • No friend list.
    • No guild/settlement chat.
    • Particle effects don't animate or display properly. (and are horrible, to boot!)
    • Sounds are ... yeah, for 2 months sound distance was set to -1 so every cast was heard throughout the entire hex at 100% volume.  Sound is terrible in general, breaks immersion, too quiet, too loud, inappropriate for attack type, etc.
    • Combat has incredibly high latency, for such a simple game.  I shudder to think what it will be like with any actual player load.  There is a minimum of 250ms of latency for all attacks, regardless of your actual Internet latency.
    • GPU load for such a simple game is insanely high.  I've never seen a game with such terrible optimization.
    • There is no water in the rivers.  In the "River Kingdoms".
    • Someone mentioned the world lit by a single bulb.  Accurate, and cheesy.
    • Recent combat changes completely changed the game (they changed EVERY FEAT), absolutely no chance of a respec, ever. Kiss that 7+ months of XP goodbye, you're useless now.
    • Crowdforging is a facade joke.  They have a plan, and they're developing to that plan, ONLY.  What players want?  They're not interested.  What would expand the demographic?  They're not interested.  What would make actual money?  They're not interested.  The amount of ideas expressed on their forums could be used to make 3 high-pop self sustaining online games.  All ignored.
    • Horrible forum software.  The worst I've ever seen.  No moderation.  Toxic behavior encouraged.  The way the vets treat everyone, the devs included?  Breaks every TOS/EULA ever on any moderated forum today.
    • No details provided on how many developers are working on the game, ever.  What's the number?  2? 3?  They don't have money for even that many with so few subs, but they'll never tell, because it would crush the fragile community like the cracked egg it is.
    • No interiors for buildings (except Inns)
    • No underground areas for anything.
    • No dungeons. No interior combat areas of any kind.
    • No non-lethal combat. (no duels)
    • PvP entirely pointless, ganking for the lolz, murder sim at it's finest, despite specifically stating during Kickstarter it would never be that.
    • No logging.  Very limited scrollback.
    • Chat interface is an abomination.  An intern on a weekend could do better.
    • No ignore (not on the forums, not in-game)
    • No mechanics to prevent stalking, harassment, bullying, griefing, etc.  None.  Zero.  A serious problem, completely ignored.
    • It's not Eve.  It's not Eve with swords.   It's not a reasonable hand drawn facsimile of Eve with swords.  There is no comparison you can draw, in any objective manner, that this game is in any way like Eve save for one:  ganking for the lolz.  Hooray?
    • New players can be killed by anyone, at any time, even in the starting areas.  Ryan has said multiple times there is no safe zone in PFO, none.  Their only guideline is:  We would rather you didn't kill players in the starting village (a 10m circle), but we won't stop you.  yeah, that'll keep the new subs rolling in.
    • The entire concept of localized banks and auction houses is crushing the economy instead of encouraging it.  As everyone who has played a game in the past that tried this knows, these concepts are the gushings of inexperienced armchair theorycrafters.  Not proven industry professionals.
    • They claim the game is not alpha or beta, yet make sweeping massive changes that you can only make in alpha or beta, and retain your customers.  Yeah, guess what Ryan?  Those customers you're abusing AND making them pay?  They have limits.
    • 8th grade math can demonstrate how many subs they'll need to keep the lights on.  If daily activity is any indication, they're at a fraction of a percentage of what they need.  This strongly indicates the game is a slowly rotting corpse, it's just not a skeleton yet.  But they'll never say how many subs they actually have, because that would be the iceberg that sinks the ship for good.
    • Finally, you know why people are paying the sub?  Because they hope Ryan will be fired, the design document will finally be shown to the crowdforging zealots, and they'll be rewarded for enduring the Trial of Tears.  IOW, the only reason people are paying is the glimmer of hope that $15/mo will pay off, either in resale of the account, or a complete overhaul of the game in the future.
    IMHO?  This game, since Jan 1, 2015, has done nothing but lower the bar for the entire genre, insult the kickstarter backers, and ultimately waste a colossal amount of time for all "customers" involved.  And it has permanently harmed the Pathfinder brand, as a bonus.
    Sad to say but pretty much spot on.

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.

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