Originally posted by Axxar Yeah, I initially also understood that statement as not having NPCs at all. I'm glad that wasn't the case.
Wow, if PVE mean having few NPC in game then I will make for sure to stay very far from this game. :-) But i agree, there is a loooooot less work for company to program PVE then it is for PVP.
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Originally posted by Alumicard
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
The key thing to remember, as was mentioned above, is that I have always said that there would be no PvE leveling, not there would not be PvE. There has to be some PvE because of The Depths, guards, etc. but players cannot level through the acts that are normally associated with the PvE elements. Thus, if you want leather for crafting, well, buy it from other players to get it by killing/skinning. If you want to fully control The Depths, you'll have to kill the creatures (including other players' spirits) inhabiting it as well as dealing with TD itself.
But, and this isn't changing, and killing NPCs to level or getting quests to do so (which would be a lame workaround) are not and never have been part of the plan. It's not that I don't have anything against that but it's not what we told our Backers would be in this game.
Oh, and the thought that market research would point us in a certain direction, LOL, not happening. If I cared about market research or stuff like that might drive bigger numbers, I wouldn't be making this game.
Just wondering, you say "that there would be no PvE leveling", does that mean that if you kill some PvE creatures for i.e. crafting mats you don't get any skill points in your attack skill? If I kill f.e. 10000 boars and gather their hides my sword skill is still1? That seems to be a bit of a let down that might lead people not to hunt "boars" in the first place. But "boars" might be to high lvl for crafters so that would mean PvE people need to do PvP (to be able to hunt boars) even they only want to craft. Is there some kind of system in place that compensates for that? Like looting an enemy castle, city or something like that.. I get that the high lvl mats should come form PvP but unless a crafter can get at least a few basic to above basic mats it is kind of pointless to even consider PvE unless a crafter has to have those mats to lvl but then why would anyone sell those mats outside the guild? So some new crafters might have a problem getting mats.
For a combatant (crafters are their own class), leveling by killing creatures will not lead to skill increases. We've been very clear about that even before our Kickstarter began. For crafters, since they are a bit offensively challenged, they might be able to level some basic combat skills. OTOH, most critters that crafters will kill to get mats will be one HP kind of critters so even the lowest level crafter can kill them. Otherwise, it would suck to be a crafter, especially a new one.
In terms of looting other people's structures, that is already confirmed too as part of the game. What would be the point otherwise?
Mark Jacobs CEO, City State Entertainment
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Originally posted by JamesGoblin
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by Tamanous
Originally posted by Octagon7711 Sounds like pve may be an after thought, designed by marketing and research who probably told them more money can be made if you hype both rather then just pvp. Sounds like it's already working as a lot of players who are mostly or only interested in pve are starting to take note of this game.
I see it as quite the opposite. The game from day 1 was proposed as a full time RvR game set within a role playing-like fantasy world. It is the core concept. Mobs and The Depths were always planned (the later to be financed through a stretch goal). Mark wants a pen on paper style RPG RvR game. Classes are to be complex just like in most rpg games.
The issue has actually simply been players not grasping what this game is trying to be. Once again it is about 3 pillars of game play:
1. RvR
2. Housing
3. Crafting
You can choose to participate is one or all of these areas but any contribution within any one area assists with the growth of your realm and therefore the progression of your character. Pvp is only part of one pillar but can affect all. You may not ever have to fight but can certainly become a victim of war ... or perhaps a large troll kills you when collecting berries.
From the sounds of it the pve part of the game (if we continue to call it that) is not meant to be about overwhelming your realm. I think only players will be able to do it. I've read some things about player controlled mobs and even mobs suited to your realm appearing when you control lands to shape it into your realms theme. These mobs are likely more aggressive to enemies than to your own but certainly isn't meant to drastically shape the battle. Realm controlled npcs like guards primarily are there to stop small off hour bands from easily taking over areas but no meant to wipe out entire player armies. The Depths itself is a living thing so is likely the largest pve-like component but rumored to again shape or change for or against your realm's control and even be affected by realms outside of it's control to assist in kicking your own realm out. This sounds a combination of pve mechanics (the living Depths) and something closer to Lotro monster vs humanoids pvmp but is outside of the normal open world so can be it's own thing.
The key thing to remember, as was mentioned above, is that I have always said that there would be no PvE leveling, not there would not be PvE. There has to be some PvE because of The Depths, guards, etc. but players cannot level through the acts that are normally associated with the PvE elements. Thus, if you want leather for crafting, well, buy it from other players to get it by killing/skinning. If you want to fully control The Depths, you'll have to kill the creatures (including other players' spirits) inhabiting it as well as dealing with TD itself.
But, and this isn't changing, and killing NPCs to level or getting quests to do so (which would be a lame workaround) are not and never have been part of the plan. It's not that I don't have anything against that but it's not what we told our Backers would be in this game.
Oh, and the thought that market research would point us in a certain direction, LOL, not happening. If I cared about market research or stuff like that might drive bigger numbers, I wouldn't be making this game.
Hi Mark, nice to see you dropping by!
Speaking of NPCs, will we be able to summon and/or control (say, using loads of enemy skulls or souls - some kind of entry fee needed) battlefield giants or dragons? I dont have the Depths in mind, but open battlefield and not spirit pets but something HUGE. Well, unless you consider Michelle & Sandra`s dragons spirit pets...=)
Hey there! In terms of huge NPCs that can be brought on to battlefields, no plans for that yet. As to The Depths, well, that would be the perfect place to do so.
Originally posted by Satarious
Originally posted by Horusra
Originally posted by Satarious
Originally posted by Octagon7711 Sounds like pve may be an after thought, designed by marketing and research who probably told them more money can be made if you hype both rather then just pvp. Sounds like it's already working as a lot of players who are mostly or only interested in pve are starting to take note of this game.
I think it's a bit naive to assume PvE is going to be a large part of this game. Sounds more like wishful thinking on the part of PvEers than reality. What I don't get is why are PvEers whining and complaining when it's been set in stone from the beginning that this is going to be a PvP centric game? If you want PvE, there are plenty of options out there already. If you want something with a old-school daoc flavor + PvE, ESO is where you should be enjoying yourself. Don't ruin it for the rest of us PvPers who are waiting for a more pure pvp game unsoiled by the grindy PvE elements.
Could be because the OP is making it sound like there will be great PvE in this game and PvE'ers should be happy with it.
You can bet that these PvEers are going to whine and cry and demand their "entitlement" for equal respect as the PvPers. They'll start demanding experience for killing NPCs. That's how these MMOs get muddied over time. Crybabies get catered to which basically ruins the game overall. Like I said, a slippery slope. It's like the "Trials of Atlantis" fiasco all over again.
PvE-focused players, unless they are crafters, will not back this game nor should they. We've been very clear that we are not trying to make a game for both hard-core PvE and RvR players. We've been very clear about this from the beginning and we have no plans on changing our minds. After all, we have lots of Backers who would literally want to skin me alive if all of a sudden I said "Surprise, surprise, surprise! We've added a full PvE game to our RvR game! Isn't that great?"
I love PvE and I do hope to do another PvE MMORPG before I call it a career but Camelot Unchained is for RvR/PvP players in concept, funding and execution. That will not change.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Satarious
Originally posted by Octagon7711 Sounds like pve may be an after thought, designed by marketing and research who probably told them more money can be made if you hype both rather then just pvp. Sounds like it's already working as a lot of players who are mostly or only interested in pve are starting to take note of this game.
I think it's a bit naive to assume PvE is going to be a large part of this game. Sounds more like wishful thinking on the part of PvEers than reality. What I don't get is why are PvEers whining and complaining when it's been set in stone from the beginning that this is going to be a PvP centric game? If you want PvE, there are plenty of options out there already. If you want something with a old-school daoc flavor + PvE, ESO is where you should be enjoying yourself. Don't ruin it for the rest of us PvPers who are waiting for a more pure pvp game unsoiled by the grindy PvE elements.
Yup OP just making wind, nothing has changed, move along =-) Post from Mark kills all hope for me and CU.
Sorry to hear that but maybe our next game will fit your play style more. As per above, I love PvE but the idea of delivering a great PvE experience + great RvR/PvP experience on this budget and for this game is a non-starter. It has to be if we want to deliver a great game. In 1999, when Mythic started work on Dark Age of Camelot, it was a different age. The things that we were able to do then on 2.5M would not be acceptable today. So, we decided to focus on delivering one great experience rather than to try to deliver on two.
Originally posted by Satarious
Originally posted by Nanfoodle
Originally posted by Satarious
Originally posted by Octagon7711 Sounds like pve may be an after thought, designed by marketing and research who probably told them more money can be made if you hype both rather then just pvp. Sounds like it's already working as a lot of players who are mostly or only interested in pve are starting to take note of this game.
I think it's a bit naive to assume PvE is going to be a large part of this game. Sounds more like wishful thinking on the part of PvEers than reality. What I don't get is why are PvEers whining and complaining when it's been set in stone from the beginning that this is going to be a PvP centric game? If you want PvE, there are plenty of options out there already. If you want something with a old-school daoc flavor + PvE, ESO is where you should be enjoying yourself. Don't ruin it for the rest of us PvPers who are waiting for a more pure pvp game unsoiled by the grindy PvE elements.
Yup OP just making wind, nothing has changed, move along =-) Post from Mark kills all hope for me and CU.
And let that be a lesson to you! Only believe what comes from the horse's mouth.
Yep. OTOH, there are some people who say that things come out from another part of me. Hopefully this time, after Camelot Unchained launches, it will be the former and not the latter.
Originally posted by daltanious
Originally posted by Axxar Yeah, I initially also understood that statement as not having NPCs at all. I'm glad that wasn't the case.
Wow, if PVE mean having few NPC in game then I will make for sure to stay very far from this game. :-) But i agree, there is a loooooot less work for company to program PVE then it is for PVP.
Absolutely. If you are looking for a PvE-centric MMORPG or one in which you can spend a lot of time leveling up a character via PvE, our game is definitely not that game. But I think you meant to say that it is less work for us to program a PvP-focused game than it is a PvE focused game. And you are 100% correct in that.
I don't want any PvE. There's no such thing as "pointless war", the war in these games is the whole point of them. I'm perfectly happy to never have to kill another npc for gear or xp ever again.
Thats really funny!
Because all I ever hear is " What is the point??"
We take this castle, and then someone comes and takes it back. What is the point?
Camelot Unchained!: We are PS 2 with swords!
Beats me, I don't play these games. Have fun!
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
I don't want any PvE. There's no such thing as "pointless war", the war in these games is the whole point of them. I'm perfectly happy to never have to kill another npc for gear or xp ever again.
Thats really funny!
Because all I ever hear is " What is the point??"
We take this castle, and then someone comes and takes it back. What is the point?
Camelot Unchained!: We are PS 2 with swords!
Beats me, I don't play these games. Have fun!
Congrats! You just called the entire history and evolution of the human race (and most creatures too) pointless.
PVE grind for gear = pointless
FPS games repeated endlessly = pointless
Racing games = pointless
Sporting games = pointless
Why do you play games again?
You stay sassy!
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
Originally posted by greenreen
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
Originally posted by Alumicard
Originally posted by MarkJacobs
...snip
Just wondering, you say "that there would be no PvE leveling", does that mean that if you kill some PvE creatures for i.e. crafting mats you don't get any skill points in your attack skill? If I kill f.e. 10000 boars and gather their hides my sword skill is still1? That seems to be a bit of a let down that might lead people not to hunt "boars" in the first place. But "boars" might be to high lvl for crafters so that would mean PvE people need to do PvP (to be able to hunt boars) even they only want to craft. Is there some kind of system in place that compensates for that? Like looting an enemy castle, city or something like that.. I get that the high lvl mats should come form PvP but unless a crafter can get at least a few basic to above basic mats it is kind of pointless to even consider PvE unless a crafter has to have those mats to lvl but then why would anyone sell those mats outside the guild? So some new crafters might have a problem getting mats.
...snip
In terms of looting other people's structures, that is already confirmed too as part of the game. What would be the point otherwise?
If this game goes "full loot castle" instead of "full loot character" with the same result - your game is going to turn out just like the others who do full loot, low population. I hope you don't fall into that trap. The worst thing you could do right now is go full loot. Darkfall and Haven & Hearth already did it and look at their populations.
Full loot encourages zergs and for people to treat others like NPCs because it's the easy path to loot. I swear to you people were on a mob spawn rotation path in Darkfall killing new players (in groups and solo) because they had tenure. I don't think you should go that route because that game has been built before and they have history. It's not a pretty one.
Full loot is doom. It would kill any game and keep them low population. It goes completely against progression and a sense of control. Taking something is one thing, taking it all just scares people away. Like the Highlander there can only be one. Full loot exclaims "the best" shall triumph and once the victims go the winners turn on each other until that one remains. At the end of the day one person can't play your game and make it profitable though one person is truly "the best". It doesn't work logistically.
We all live with the reality that someone in this world could be smarter or stronger but their talents don't mean they full loot us in real life. This is a point where human compassion needs to override game fun if you want a population not built on psychopaths alone. Even the psychopaths leave you when their victims go - remember they lack empathy so they don't care about your real life, only that you feed them victims. They don't know loyalty, they know self. You can't put all the apples in their barrel.
The only reason people can go to work without constant worry is because we have laws and rules and punishment in society. Say homes were full loot and mandated to not have doors. If you could subdue the participants and by law have reign to free loot people wouldn't be so populated in real life either because the victim count would really rise if people can take everything and risk nothing. What does that say about aging - it's a death sentence because you aren't physically able to compete? Give it up grandpa - 30 is clearly too old to compete, go die now - we want your stuff. Aging is analogous here to playing the game for longer which every person making a game should desire - people to enjoy their time and stick around and accumulate AKA progress.
Then the economy crumbles because there is no GDP. It's basic isn't it that some trust level needs to exist and if someone steps out of line they can be punished in return?
How are you going to punish a robber who took everything in your house, drove off with your car and put holes in the walls when they also took all the money you had in the bank. You gonna' go rob the GNC and get that protein powder to build up yer wee muscles or are you going to steal from your juicy neighbor who is going to go to work tomorrow because the pickin's are closer and easier? lol
I'm not saying reward mediocre but don't punish "unable". If someone is unable from a calculator standpoint to triumph they should not sacrifice everything for it. That makes them more "unable" the next time to compete. You aren't helping them. And when someone isn't "unable" people make them "unable" by bringing more combatants and you can't stop that. Sore losers don't have to stop at one try. They can come back with too many people for you to fight. That's the zerg that happens.
I guess I'm only mentioning this because everything seems so unknown at this point and up for fluctuation and I get the feeling things could swing wildly based on the forum we can't even see - the one for backers only. Maybe if you open that up later in the cycle more people could learn more things and not be so offbase. You see all of us here use forums to communicate so this is part of what entices us - PVP or PVE fans. Every time I see a CU post I intentionally look for what Tamanous (mmorpg poster) wrote because I believe they are inside right now so know more.
Sorry for the short answer to your long post but we've already said, even before the Kickstarter, that we are not going to be a full loot PvP game. That hasn't changed.
I agree with you, BTW, that for us, doing a full loot PvP-style game, even if it is not FFA, would have been a mistake which is why, as per above, I've made it quite clear. Grakulen actually interviewed me here and asked me about it. Here's an YouTube link:
Speaking of NPCs, will we be able to summon and/or control (say, using loads of enemy skulls or souls - some kind of entry fee needed) battlefield giants or dragons? I dont have the Depths in mind, but open battlefield and not spirit pets but something HUGE. Well, unless you consider Michelle & Sandra`s dragons spirit pets...=)
Hey there! In terms of huge NPCs that can be brought on to battlefields, no plans for that yet. As to The Depths, well, that would be the perfect place to do so.
There seems to be a tiny miny crumble of hope in " no plans...yet " (no, no, please don`t answer to this one!).
Completely offtopic, but after hearing about the ability crafting system - I had the fear that some more complex things I`d want to se in CU can`t be crafted (crafted as, say, pick type of weapon/ spell, then pick range/spot/type of effect etc. and create). For example, how could we craft (say, using WoW terms) stuff such as Feign Death, Mind Controll, Reincarnation, Vanish, Ice Block, Moonkin Form...?
Have in mind that I do not want to see any of these specific abilities in CU (for example, Feign Death is more PvE etc.), I am just taking random examples which AFAIK can`t be described by the relatively simple language of heal+ball, fire+ball or sword+stab (plus modifiers) and such. I hope we will have much more than "only" player created stuff?
I don't want any PvE. There's no such thing as "pointless war", the war in these games is the whole point of them. I'm perfectly happy to never have to kill another npc for gear or xp ever again.
Thats really funny!
Because all I ever hear is " What is the point??"
We take this castle, and then someone comes and takes it back. What is the point?
Camelot Unchained!: We are PS 2 with swords!
Beats me, I don't play these games. Have fun!
Congrats! You just called the entire history and evolution of the human race (and most creatures too) pointless.
PVE grind for gear = pointless
FPS games repeated endlessly = pointless
Racing games = pointless
Sporting games = pointless
Why do you play games again?
Actually I never said that at all. I can understand your confusion though. I said, I hear other people saying this all the time.
Ask them why.
But that was kind of my point. Why do people say this all the time? Why are people always looking for some deep meaning in their games?
Can't people just enjoy killing each other over and over again for fun? Apparently there has to be some justifiable reason for the killing for it to be meaningful to these types of players. I guess it is because in the games/sports you mention, there is some kind of reward such as a trophy or money. In an MMO all you get are bragging rights for 5 mins.
Again, PvP, not my thing, I was just bringing it up for discussion.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Originally posted by Octagon7711 Sounds like pve may be an after thought, designed by marketing and research who probably told them more money can be made if you hype both rather then just pvp. Sounds like it's already working as a lot of players who are mostly or only interested in pve are starting to take note of this game.
I think it's a bit naive to assume PvE is going to be a large part of this game. Sounds more like wishful thinking on the part of PvEers than reality. What I don't get is why are PvEers whining and complaining when it's been set in stone from the beginning that this is going to be a PvP centric game? If you want PvE, there are plenty of options out there already. If you want something with a old-school daoc flavor + PvE, ESO is where you should be enjoying yourself. Don't ruin it for the rest of us PvPers who are waiting for a more pure pvp game unsoiled by the grindy PvE elements.
Could be because the OP is making it sound like there will be great PvE in this game and PvE'ers should be happy with it.
You can bet that these PvEers are going to whine and cry and demand their "entitlement" for equal respect as the PvPers. They'll start demanding experience for killing NPCs. That's how these MMOs get muddied over time. Crybabies get catered to which basically ruins the game overall. Like I said, a slippery slope. It's like the "Trials of Atlantis" fiasco all over again.
Just like you PvP'er's whine and cry everytime a balance design change is made, or another dungeon gets made.
It works both ways sir!
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Originally posted by Axxar Yeah, I initially also understood that statement as not having NPCs at all. I'm glad that wasn't the case.
Wow, if PVE mean having few NPC in game then I will make for sure to stay very far from this game. :-) But i agree, there is a loooooot less work for company to program PVE then it is for PVP.
Ups, only now I have seen typo mistake, at the end of last sentence exchange PVP with PVE. :-) PVE must be real nightmare to program and a lot of work.
The market is over-saturated with PvE games. As a backer, I don't give two cents about raid/dungeon content in this game. Keep it out.
If you don't like that, don't waste your time coming here whining that this "killed CU" for you. Go play one of the myriad well-crafted PvE games already in existence.
5 pages of posts, links to wikis, response from the Dev, and I'm just as confused as ever. Gonna sit, hold tight, wait for release, and give it a try. Here's hopping that there will be something, at least partially appealing, in the game that will appeal to me.
Sorry for the short answer to your long post but we've already said, even before the Kickstarter, that we are not going to be a full loot PvP game. That hasn't changed.
I agree with you, BTW, that for us, doing a full loot PvP-style game, even if it is not FFA, would have been a mistake which is why, as per above, I've made it quite clear. Grakulen actually interviewed me here and asked me about it. Here's an YouTube link:
Great to hear this! I got a bit worried when I read Greenreen's post about full loot pvp. Full-loot can be fun if you go into it with the right mind set, but I personally prefer the ideas you outlined in the video above.
....
MarkJacobsCEO City State EntertainmentMemberRarePosts: 649
5 pages of posts, links to wikis, response from the Dev, and I'm just as confused as ever. Gonna sit, hold tight, wait for release, and give it a try. Here's hopping that there will be something, at least partially appealing, in the game that will appeal to me.
If you would like to ask a couple/few direct questions, I'd be happy to answer them. People shouldn't be confused about what kind of game we are making. If they are, it's probably our failure not yours. OTOH, if I was a politician, well, I'd understand your confusion. I'm confused myself when I listen to our candidates.
5 pages of posts, links to wikis, response from the Dev, and I'm just as confused as ever. Gonna sit, hold tight, wait for release, and give it a try. Here's hopping that there will be something, at least partially appealing, in the game that will appeal to me.
If you would like to ask a couple/few direct questions, I'd be happy to answer them. People shouldn't be confused about what kind of game we are making. If they are, it's probably our failure not yours. OTOH, if I was a politician, well, I'd understand your confusion. I'm confused myself when I listen to our candidates.
So, IJ, ask away.
Greatly appreciate the offer; the fandom can get overly excited and may push facts into more speculation territory. I'm loving the concepts behind a pure RvR MMO, and the thought of a sprinkling of PVE into the mix intrigues me even more. I'm not sure how this will work, as I see the majority of players skipping the PVE aspect if it has no effect on the main objectives (RvR). If the PVE is there to further the lore and crafting, I can see it working up to a point. For me, I'm just excited to see what creative ways you all treat PVE. I love the PVP aspects of several games, but during times when the community becomes toxic, or unbalanced, I like to sink into the lore and PVE. I'm hoping that CU may offer those opportunities. At this point though, I'm saturated, and will happily sit back and see what you all come up with.
I for one can't wait for Camelot Unchained to come out. This will be perfect for my PvP fix, and if I will feel like playing some PvE there is plenty of other options (hopefully one of them will be coming from Mark soon)
For a combatant (crafters are their own class), leveling by killing creatures will not lead to skill increases. We've been very clear about that even before our Kickstarter began. For crafters, since they are a bit offensively challenged, they might be able to level some basic combat skills. OTOH, most critters that crafters will kill to get mats will be one HP kind of critters so even the lowest level crafter can kill them. Otherwise, it would suck to be a crafter, especially a new one.
In terms of looting other people's structures, that is already confirmed too as part of the game. What would be the point otherwise?
I respect the fact you stick with your guns (and the fact that you respect the backers that already invested in this game).
Having said that I believe the total lack of PvE is a major fault with the game design. Having to PvP all the time can be monotonous, even for a hardcore PvPer, you need to have something else to do in between the main event (PvP)
I don't remember DAoC being devoid of PvE, it was clearly a PvP-RvR game, but there was enough PvE to keep people entertained when they didn't feel to PvP. Even Darkfall which is the best and most hardcore PvP game has more PvE than Camelot, but it wasn't exactly a success. I can tell you the main reason why Darkfall didn't do so well, and the main reason is that slowly all PvErs left the game. I feel like PvP games won't work unless they can attract the PvErs as well. PvPers like to prey on PvErs in MMOs. Without PvErs, the PvPers won't have easy preys to kill, and eventually they will quit too. MMO PvPers like easy kills, they don't like to fight between each others (they are very bad losers). Whoever wants fair PvP fights with like minded people plays MOBAs, not MMORPGs. At least that's my view.
They have a 'lack of content' issue. Thus, the PVP. It's as simple as that. Any game tagged as an MMORPG heavy in PVP has spent their coin on game mechanics, not story, or immersive content. So many other games with good PVP in them, this title will lose 80% of the MMORPG market by making PVE a negative.
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
It's a niche game and has been from conception. They are not aiming to get "80% of the MMORPG market". For once someone is trying to do one thing, but do it well.
For a combatant (crafters are their own class), leveling by killing creatures will not lead to skill increases. We've been very clear about that even before our Kickstarter began. For crafters, since they are a bit offensively challenged, they might be able to level some basic combat skills. OTOH, most critters that crafters will kill to get mats will be one HP kind of critters so even the lowest level crafter can kill them. Otherwise, it would suck to be a crafter, especially a new one.
In terms of looting other people's structures, that is already confirmed too as part of the game. What would be the point otherwise?
I respect the fact you stick with your guns (and the fact that you respect the backers that already invested in this game).
Having said that I believe the total lack of PvE is a major fault with the game design. Having to PvP all the time can be monotonous, even for a hardcore PvPer, you need to have something else to do in between the main event (PvP)
I don't know exactly what a hardcore pvper is, but I am pretty sure I am not one of those, and yet I have absolutely no issue if a game has no pve. In every pvp focused game I have played, I either didn't like the pve or just didn't do it because I preferred spending my time pvping (even when the pve is actually pretty good like ESO).
That said, there is pve in CU, but from what I can see it is designed to have meaning in the context of a pvp focused game.
James Goblin gave some links with good information about it:
I think it's a waste of time to put in token PvE content.
I don't pvp but i think the game needs to offer something unique for the players that want to focus on pvp.
That also applies to PvE games as well......ahem TESO
He always stated from the beginning that this will be a niche game. He is not trying to create a "WoW" killer like so many other MMO's are trying to do. His vision of what he wants the game to be has never changed. There will be pve for folks, but not the traditional gear drops one might expect. Crafting items, crafting items, and more crafting items. If one can get over the mindset of getting a +7 Dragonslayer Shortsword of Doom and think of it as, wow, he just dropped the rare mats i needed for the +7 Uberleet Longsword of Slaying, let me put these on the market or get my guildmate to craft one for me......then things would be golden. But a lot of players want their gear NOW. And, that being said, this game is not for them. They dont fall into the niche MJ is targeting.
So, the PvE content is not "token content". It has meaning.
The problem with adding PVE, is that in order to have PVE system you would have to change the way the underlying game works. You'd have to change the way loot works, you'd have to change the way the world is designed, you'd have to change the way leveling works... You have to change WAY more than people think. PVE isn't something you can just tack-on.
When a game has a both PVE and PVP one is always going to get watered down to spend resources on the other. Combat can't work the same, abilities have to be changed, and the balance is never quite what anyone wants.
Sure it would be great for CU to have a million players, but in order to GET those million players, it would no longer be CU. Then you just have another fantasy MMO with PVE, and open world factional PVP. There are now what.... Five of those?
CU doesn't want a million players, they want everyone who is tired of having to grind PVE levels in order to go PVP. They are trying to get the players who are tired of seeing major game updates where the RvR changes are stuck on page 3 in tiny writing. Where you spend 99% of your time in 5% of the game. Where your a second class citizen just because you don't give a damn about raiding, or new bosses, or new dungeons.
CU is PVP.......
On day 1, and on day 1000.
Will CU have a smaller population because of this.?... yes
But they arn't going to compromise to win you over. You already have your games, let us have ours.
And all this equals low populations and minimal funding. I agree with you, but you need to be realistic. I would say, look at EVE-Online, but not in it's current state. The first 5 yrs of that game were a great balance of PVE and PVP where PVE was mostly to support PVP, but that balance is gone now and it's a shell of what it once was and has been in decline population wise, since.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.
Comments
Wow, if PVE mean having few NPC in game then I will make for sure to stay very far from this game. :-) But i agree, there is a loooooot less work for company to program PVE then it is for PVP.
For a combatant (crafters are their own class), leveling by killing creatures will not lead to skill increases. We've been very clear about that even before our Kickstarter began. For crafters, since they are a bit offensively challenged, they might be able to level some basic combat skills. OTOH, most critters that crafters will kill to get mats will be one HP kind of critters so even the lowest level crafter can kill them. Otherwise, it would suck to be a crafter, especially a new one.
In terms of looting other people's structures, that is already confirmed too as part of the game. What would be the point otherwise?
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
Hey there! In terms of huge NPCs that can be brought on to battlefields, no plans for that yet. As to The Depths, well, that would be the perfect place to do so.
PvE-focused players, unless they are crafters, will not back this game nor should they. We've been very clear that we are not trying to make a game for both hard-core PvE and RvR players. We've been very clear about this from the beginning and we have no plans on changing our minds. After all, we have lots of Backers who would literally want to skin me alive if all of a sudden I said "Surprise, surprise, surprise! We've added a full PvE game to our RvR game! Isn't that great?"
I love PvE and I do hope to do another PvE MMORPG before I call it a career but Camelot Unchained is for RvR/PvP players in concept, funding and execution. That will not change.
Sorry to hear that but maybe our next game will fit your play style more. As per above, I love PvE but the idea of delivering a great PvE experience + great RvR/PvP experience on this budget and for this game is a non-starter. It has to be if we want to deliver a great game. In 1999, when Mythic started work on Dark Age of Camelot, it was a different age. The things that we were able to do then on 2.5M would not be acceptable today. So, we decided to focus on delivering one great experience rather than to try to deliver on two. Yep. OTOH, there are some people who say that things come out from another part of me.Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
Thats really funny!
Because all I ever hear is " What is the point??"
We take this castle, and then someone comes and takes it back. What is the point?
Camelot Unchained!: We are PS 2 with swords!
Beats me, I don't play these games. Have fun!
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Congrats! You just called the entire history and evolution of the human race (and most creatures too) pointless.
PVE grind for gear = pointless
FPS games repeated endlessly = pointless
Racing games = pointless
Sporting games = pointless
Why do you play games again?
You stay sassy!
Sorry for the short answer to your long post but we've already said, even before the Kickstarter, that we are not going to be a full loot PvP game. That hasn't changed.
I agree with you, BTW, that for us, doing a full loot PvP-style game, even if it is not FFA, would have been a mistake which is why, as per above, I've made it quite clear. Grakulen actually interviewed me here and asked me about it. Here's an YouTube link:
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
There seems to be a tiny miny crumble of hope in " no plans...yet " (no, no, please don`t answer to this one!).
Completely offtopic, but after hearing about the ability crafting system - I had the fear that some more complex things I`d want to se in CU can`t be crafted (crafted as, say, pick type of weapon/ spell, then pick range/spot/type of effect etc. and create). For example, how could we craft (say, using WoW terms) stuff such as Feign Death, Mind Controll, Reincarnation, Vanish, Ice Block, Moonkin Form...?
Have in mind that I do not want to see any of these specific abilities in CU (for example, Feign Death is more PvE etc.), I am just taking random examples which AFAIK can`t be described by the relatively simple language of heal+ball, fire+ball or sword+stab (plus modifiers) and such. I hope we will have much more than "only" player created stuff?
Actually I never said that at all. I can understand your confusion though. I said, I hear other people saying this all the time.
Ask them why.
But that was kind of my point. Why do people say this all the time? Why are people always looking for some deep meaning in their games?
Can't people just enjoy killing each other over and over again for fun? Apparently there has to be some justifiable reason for the killing for it to be meaningful to these types of players. I guess it is because in the games/sports you mention, there is some kind of reward such as a trophy or money. In an MMO all you get are bragging rights for 5 mins.
Again, PvP, not my thing, I was just bringing it up for discussion.
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
Just like you PvP'er's whine and cry everytime a balance design change is made, or another dungeon gets made.
It works both ways sir!
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
If you don't like that, don't waste your time coming here whining that this "killed CU" for you. Go play one of the myriad well-crafted PvE games already in existence.
So, IJ, ask away.
Mark Jacobs
CEO, City State Entertainment
Sinister Savant MMORPG Community
Having said that I believe the total lack of PvE is a major fault with the game design.
Having to PvP all the time can be monotonous, even for a hardcore PvPer, you need to have something else to do in between the main event (PvP)
I don't remember DAoC being devoid of PvE, it was clearly a PvP-RvR game, but there was enough PvE to keep people entertained when they didn't feel to PvP.
Even Darkfall which is the best and most hardcore PvP game has more PvE than Camelot, but it wasn't exactly a success.
I can tell you the main reason why Darkfall didn't do so well, and the main reason is that slowly all PvErs left the game.
I feel like PvP games won't work unless they can attract the PvErs as well.
PvPers like to prey on PvErs in MMOs.
Without PvErs, the PvPers won't have easy preys to kill, and eventually they will quit too.
MMO PvPers like easy kills, they don't like to fight between each others (they are very bad losers).
Whoever wants fair PvP fights with like minded people plays MOBAs, not MMORPGs.
At least that's my view.
Anyway, it's your game, your way.
Good luck.
First PC Game: Pool of Radiance July 10th, 1990. First MMO: Everquest April 23, 1999
Sinister Savant MMORPG Community
That said, there is pve in CU, but from what I can see it is designed to have meaning in the context of a pvp focused game.
James Goblin gave some links with good information about it:
"To clarify some things about PvE in this game, here is PvE chapter from CU Wiki, and here are The Depths."
There will be pve for folks, but not the traditional gear drops one might expect. Crafting items, crafting items, and more crafting items. If one can get over the mindset of getting a +7 Dragonslayer Shortsword of Doom and think of it as, wow, he just dropped the rare mats i needed for the +7 Uberleet Longsword of Slaying, let me put these on the market or get my guildmate to craft one for me......then things would be golden. But a lot of players want their gear NOW. And, that being said, this game is not for them. They dont fall into the niche MJ is targeting.
So, the PvE content is not "token content". It has meaning.
I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.