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Longevity is all about community

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  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member RarePosts: 3,432
    immodium said:
    What complete hollow rhetoric.

    There are plenty of great communities in MMOs today. Including MMOs with megaserver technology, LFD tools, fast travel.

    Also there's great communities in multiplayer FPS, RTS, MOBA etc games.

    Even single player games have great communities online.
    That may be so but thank god this mmo wont be one of them, have fun finding your great community in your fed-x mmo's.




  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member RarePosts: 3,432

    Loke666 said:
    Amjoco said:
    I think it's a mix of many things, but one of the main concerns is the genre is overly saturated with different mmos now and everyone is all spread out.
    If you think about the early days of WoW and EQ, there were very few choices of games and that bond the players into strong communities. In fact, this may be a reason why WoW has lasted so long, and is gradually fading due to folks finally breaking ties with old friends and guilds to play other games. Once that begins, it's a crapshoot of just bouncing from game to game looking for what you had, and should probably had never left. 
    I hope this game grasps a lot of players and keeps them, but from recent years it is evident that all games start out huge and then dwindle into a niche game. I'm afraid that the era of huge communities of players and guilds are gone.


    We need some MMOs that stands out and offer something different, Pantheon, Shards and Crowfall are all trying that. Hopefully will at least one of them attract a rather large sum of players.
    Why do they need large sums of players, haven't you been listening to anything the devs of these kickstarters have been saying about the player base they are expecting?




  • WarlyxWarlyx Member RarePosts: 3,085
    User836 said:
    Gdemami said:
    Um..I think you are making a huge leap there.

    Yes, technology affects how we communicate same way as in-game mechanics but that isn't the determining factor. You cannot "design" how will people communicate.

    If the technology or in-game tool isn't fitting how people want to communicate/use it, they simply won't use it.

    Dungeon finders didn't become popular because devs designed them to be popular but they were considered convenient and useful by players.

    There must be a will from player side to do what you want them to do in the first place and current market does not seem to imply there is much demand for interaction OP is asking for...


    Devs only follow the players, that is only way to have players play your game and subsequently make profit.
    I agree with everything except the part that you cannot design how people will communicate, I think that you can (to a degree, not entirely of course) because the game provides the set of tools and the setting - if they make the game at a certain pace (slower) and without convenience tools such as auto-group and with a high degree of cooperativity needed then they provide a setting that will encourage people to reach out to each other and socialize.

    I agree on the rest though, like people enjoy these convenience/modern/whatever features so much that it is "worth it" to have them. All I'm saying is, I think they also affect some aspects of the game negatively (for some people). They are not all good (but probably the good outweighs the bad from the devs' and most players' points of view).
    yup , if u create a enviroment where the player A needs or want to interact with player B for lots of reason , from questing , to killing a boss , to needing a item , or just because!

    1 is chat , some games do it good , others games however (skyforge for example , worst chat system ever!), or ESO on consoles

    chat needs to be visible but doesnt have to be "on your face" , chat bubbles really helped in creating a good community , since u dont even need to look at the chat box.

    Devs have the the tools to create an easy and comfortable community enviroment  , but we as players have the power to use the tools the devs have created, if the tools are a pain in the rear to use...then ppl wont bother....

    and a silent mmorpg hub is worse than trolls on chat...
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,573
    edited August 2015
    People don't know about stuff they don't have.

    If you only know horses you would think they are the best mode of travel.....However a car is better once you know about a car....This statement is true, so it would be hard to argue, right ?



    In the case of mmos, it's like this : 
    We used to have horses, but technology gave us donkeys ( convenience tools )......What we have now is not a step forward.  



    You can call it many things, communities, living breathing worlds, true interactions and a few others.....One thing for sure, they were taken away with " convenience tools ".  

    Many don't even know what a living breathing world is because mmo's have been stripped clean.  Who would play a 2001 poorly designed mmo to find out ?
      
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,321
    People don't know about stuff they don't have.

    If you only know horses you would think they are the best mode of travel.....However a car is better once you know about a car....This statement is true, so it would be hard to argue, right ?



    In the case of mmos, it's like this : 
    We used to have horses, but technology gave us donkeys ( convenience tools )......What we have now is not a step forward.  



    You can call it many things, communities, living breathing worlds, true interactions and a few others.....One thing for sure, they were taken away with " convenience tools ".  

    Many don't even know what a living breathing world is because mmo's have been stripped clean.  Who would play a 2001 poorly designed mmo to find out ?
      
    Precisely! WoW came out and people realized there is something better, with all the convenience goodies!


    You are getting it, finally...
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,573
    edited August 2015
    Gdemami said:
    People don't know about stuff they don't have.

    If you only know horses you would think they are the best mode of travel.....However a car is better once you know about a car....This statement is true, so it would be hard to argue, right ?



    In the case of mmos, it's like this : 
    We used to have horses, but technology gave us donkeys ( convenience tools )......What we have now is not a step forward.  



    You can call it many things, communities, living breathing worlds, true interactions and a few others.....One thing for sure, they were taken away with " convenience tools ".  

    Many don't even know what a living breathing world is because mmo's have been stripped clean.  Who would play a 2001 poorly designed mmo to find out ?
      
    Precisely! WoW came out and people realized there is something better, with all the convenience goodies!


    You are getting it, finally...
    Good topic WoW :)

    Sure,  World of Warcraft has millions, but World of Warcraft lost millions because of the added convenience goodies.

    Wow is still a mainstream household name so the game can endure a lot.....Others that follow using the same convenience format always seem to fail ! 
  • GdemamiGdemami Member EpicPosts: 12,321
    Good topic WoW :)

    Sure,  World of Warcraft has millions, but World of Warcraft lost millions because of the added convenience goodies.

    Wow is still a mainstream household name so the game can endure a lot.....Others that follow using the same convenience format always seem to fail ! 
    Seem to fail? Where do you get that? There is more themepark games on the market than ever.

    You certainly have some evidence that would point out to reasons behind WoW losing subs, namely "concevience goodies". I am very curious about that one(I bet Blizzard would be too).
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441

    Loke666 said:
    We need some MMOs that stands out and offer something different, Pantheon, Shards and Crowfall are all trying that. Hopefully will at least one of them attract a rather large sum of players.
    Why do they need large sums of players, haven't you been listening to anything the devs of these kickstarters have been saying about the player base they are expecting?
    Larger is relative but if any of them actually do well, maybe it will actually inspire certain larger publishers that MMOs both can be original and still be popular.

    We need a few MMOs that can sustain a million players each if we want a healthy genre. The kickstarter games themselves can surely survive on a rather small group of players but fewer and fewer people make MMOs today and many who have been in the making have gotten cancelled the last few years, games like Titan, WoDO, Copernicus and a bunch of others.

    The alternative is that games like Skyforge gets the players and I rather have the genre moving somewhere more original. Or worse, that people move over even more to Mobas.
  • ArclanArclan Member UncommonPosts: 1,550
    Totally agree with the OP.  Flashing pixels attracts us but community is what binds people together.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • ArclanArclan Member UncommonPosts: 1,550
    edited August 2015
    Loke666 said:

    Several games do have a robust community: ESO, GW2, FF XIV, WOW and TOR at least have more players than Everquest did at it's peak.....

    Was just thinking we should start using % of the player base as a stat; rather than raw numbers.  What % of Western Civilization's MMORPG players were playing Everquest in 2001?   I'd say most of them.  Game reviewers loved EQ so much they didn't even want to spend time reviewing other games, LOL.

    It's true that Blizzard's endless marketing attracted millions to the genre; raising the measuring stick in terms of raw numbers.  And now it's hard to even determine how many real players are in MMOs like TOR since anyone can create a F2P account.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • KrimzinKrimzin Member UncommonPosts: 687
    There has to be consequences for acting a fool in an MMO.. In EQ, id you were an ass hat your reputation become known.. Once you start offering name changes.. server transfers.. you open up even more anonymity, so people act a fool.
    If you want to build community.. dont allow name changes.. its a start.

    Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.
    Best Duo Ever

    Lets see your Battle Stations /r/battlestations
    Battle Station 
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,573
    edited August 2015
    Gdemami said:
    Good topic WoW :)

    Sure,  World of Warcraft has millions, but World of Warcraft lost millions because of the added convenience goodies.

    Wow is still a mainstream household name so the game can endure a lot.....Others that follow using the same convenience format always seem to fail ! 
    Seem to fail? Where do you get that? There is more themepark games on the market than ever.

    You certainly have some evidence that would point out to reasons behind WoW losing subs, namely "concevience goodies". I am very curious about that one(I bet Blizzard would be too).
    Everyone knows that World of Warcraft lost millions of players.  This should be a no brainier......Many are down right pissed about the direction WoW took.  Is it still popular ?....Yes, but millions quit.  You know it, I know it.  It's a fact.

    Numbers ?.......No one knows numbers that is confidential.  This argument doesn't work with me. 

    There will always be more as school age kids become older.  It's mainstream.   Forth graders don't flock to games like FF14 or ESO, they would get ridiculed if they played anything other than mainstream.   It's kind of like having cheap WalMart sneakers, they would get crucified in school.  

    World of Warcraft also has one hell of a Raid ending that some will never let go.  Nothing will stop this type of player, even a downright bad Pay-to-win model......Nothing !



    I can go on all day with the subject of World of Warcraft, but this is going off topic.  So I'll stop here !


  • ArclanArclan Member UncommonPosts: 1,550
    Or if they offer name changes; the game should keep track of their original name.  E.g., my name may be bruce, but right click on me to inspect and it will say 'alias Bruce1, alias Bruce2.'    Maybe it would be best to link the character's account.  So players could see at a glance that my characters, 'Arclan', 'Tallor', etc., all belong to the same account.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • fivorothfivoroth Member UncommonPosts: 3,916
    I agree with some of your sentiment. However, saying that every storyline quest in FFXIV is done solo is just flat out not true. Next time don't criticise games you have not played.

    Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Arclan said:
    Loke666 said:

    Several games do have a robust community: ESO, GW2, FF XIV, WOW and TOR at least have more players than Everquest did at it's peak.....

    Was just thinking we should start using % of the player base as a stat; rather than raw numbers.  What % of Western Civilization's MMORPG players were playing Everquest in 2001?   I'd say most of them.  Game reviewers loved EQ so much they didn't even want to spend time reviewing other games, LOL.

    It's true that Blizzard's endless marketing attracted millions to the genre; raising the measuring stick in terms of raw numbers.  And now it's hard to even determine how many real players are in a game since anyone can create a F2P account.
    Well, yeah but it is pretty confusing what counts as a MMO today. Games like World of tanks seems to count as well as CORPGs like Guildwars and DDO.  Heck, a lot of people think Diablo 3 and Path of exile are MMOs.

    Things were simpler in '99. Still, EQ might have had a larger percentage of the community back then, even if Lineage actually were far larger from 2000 and forward, compared to any of those games beside Wow but that doesn't mean that those games doesn't have large robust communities which was my point.

    What an active player really is today is also confusing, in '99 it was anyone paying for a sub but today it can be anyone who logged in to check the marketplace 5 min a month or with some games the number of created accounts.
  • fivorothfivoroth Member UncommonPosts: 3,916
    edited August 2015
    Arclan said:
    Loke666 said:

    Several games do have a robust community: ESO, GW2, FF XIV, WOW and TOR at least have more players than Everquest did at it's peak.....

    Was just thinking we should start using % of the player base as a stat; rather than raw numbers.  What % of Western Civilization's MMORPG players were playing Everquest in 2001?   I'd say most of them.  Game reviewers loved EQ so much they didn't even want to spend time reviewing other games, LOL.

    It's true that Blizzard's endless marketing attracted millions to the genre; raising the measuring stick in terms of raw numbers.  And now it's hard to even determine how many real players are in MMOs like TOR since anyone can create a F2P account.
    That's not really feasible. Also are you looking at % of total gaming population or total MMORPG population? EQ was an incredibly tiny fraction of the whole gaming population. Yes, EQ had a really good % of the total MMORPG population. But then WoW increased the entire MMORPG population god knows how many fold and captured a massive % of the whole MMORPG population. WoW for quite a long time had more market share than every single other MMO combined.

    WoW was the most popular western MMORPG (if you want to get hung up on the whole western thing but I don't understand why but ok). 

    Basically what I am getting at is that WoW beat EQ at every single success measure. More players. WoW had a bigger market share than EQ and every single other MMO for a long time. WoW even 11 years after it has released is still the largest and biggest MMORPG known to man kind. If a gamer or non-gamer has heard of only one MMORPG, you bet it would be World of Warcraft. Every gamer knows of WoW, not everyone knows of EQ. Among non-gamers I doubt many people have even heard of EQ.

    REviews were also raving for WoW. Most of the reviews were like 9.5/10 and a lot of the narrative read like "This is the game that no matter who you are, you should play".

    I mean just look at this if you have forgotten:

    http://www.gamespot.com/reviews/world-of-warcraft-review/1900-6114072/

    Finally, think about one thing. When WoW was about to launch, many people were saying that there is no way WoW will beat EQ2 as Everquest was the most popular MMORPG and because they were just the market leader whereas Blizzard were seen as the "newbies". True Blizzard was a much more recognisable name than EQ or SOE even then but still among the MMORPG population EQ was "the thing". Yet WoW completely blew both EQ1 and EQ2 out of the water.

    Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,573
    fivoroth said:
    Arclan said:
    Loke666 said:

    Several games do have a robust community: ESO, GW2, FF XIV, WOW and TOR at least have more players than Everquest did at it's peak.....

    Was just thinking we should start using % of the player base as a stat; rather than raw numbers.  What % of Western Civilization's MMORPG players were playing Everquest in 2001?   I'd say most of them.  Game reviewers loved EQ so much they didn't even want to spend time reviewing other games, LOL.

    It's true that Blizzard's endless marketing attracted millions to the genre; raising the measuring stick in terms of raw numbers.  And now it's hard to even determine how many real players are in MMOs like TOR since anyone can create a F2P account.
    That's not really feasible. Also are you looking at % of total gaming population or total MMORPG population? EQ was an incredibly tiny fraction of the whole gaming population. Yes, EQ had a really good % of the total MMORPG population. But then WoW increased the entire MMORPG population god knows how many fold and captured a massive % of the whole MMORPG population. WoW for quite a long time had more market share than every single other MMO combined.

    WoW was the most popular western MMORPG (if you want to get hung up on the whole western thing but I don't understand why but ok). 

    Basically what I am getting at is that WoW beat EQ at every single success measure. More players. WoW had a bigger market share than EQ and every single other MMO for a long time. WoW even 11 years after it has released is still the largest and biggest MMORPG known to man kind. If a gamer or non-gamer has heard of only one MMORPG, you bet it would be World of Warcraft. Every gamer knows of WoW, not everyone knows of EQ. Among non-gamers I doubt many people have even heard of EQ.

    REviews were also raving for WoW. Most of the reviews were like 9.5/10 and a lot of the narrative read like "This is the game that no matter who you are, you should play".

    I mean just look at this if you have forgotten:

    http://www.gamespot.com/reviews/world-of-warcraft-review/1900-6114072/

    Finally, think about one thing. When WoW was about to launch, many people were saying that there is no way WoW will beat EQ2 as Everquest was the most popular MMORPG and because they were just the market leader whereas Blizzard were seen as the "newbies". True Blizzard was a much more recognisable name than EQ or SOE even then but still among the MMORPG population EQ was "the thing". Yet WoW completely blew both EQ1 and EQ2 out of the water.
    I would like to add more about World of Warcraft ( vanilla ) that would pertain to this topic.

    WoW flowed naturally for community and socialization.

    The world was persistent and without zoning, instanced only with Dungeons and changing between two continents.  Developers knew how to bring players together naturally with both solo and group content.  Chain quest were at a minimum because others may not be on the same part.  Classes complemented each other well for Tank, Healers and DPS.....You needed each other.  The demographic of large city placement was perfect for players to meet.  It's kind of like developers understood how players would socialize.   

    World of Warcraft suffered one problem, the same problem as every other mmo......Actually getting the players together.  Guilds were not enough.  This became a big problem with all mmos.  Guilds could be made by anyone and too many players made them.  No guild could sustain enough players at any given level for dungeons.  Players HAD to look at the entire community to fill groups.  Players always and to this day rely on Chat.  Never could players realize NO ONE READS CHAT !

    Well, Blizzard designed the LFD tool.  This was the beginning of the Lobby game, the beginning to the end of community for World of Warcraft and all others that followed this format.

    The real answer was simple.  Encourage players to use the social panel, every mmos has it, no one uses it !........I used it in the most dead of dead games like Vanguard, and always found instant groups.  It's amazing how people respond to invitations they would normally never see in chat.


    Blizzard revolutionized the mmo with it's social dynamics, then destroyed the mmo with the Dungeon finder, making it a lobby game.

    Classic example of building something up then tarring something down !


  • ArclanArclan Member UncommonPosts: 1,550
    At the risk of getting off topic,  Blizzard wiped the floor with SOE.  It isn't that WoW was a better game; I don't know any EQ players who quit to play WoW.  Very different target audiences.  But Blizzard's business savvy was vastly superior to SOE.  SOE produced WAY more content than Blizzard ever did.  SOE had two major MMORPGs and was cranking out huge, complex expansions every six months.  Wow's expansions came every other year, I think.  At any rate; Kudos to WoW.  I was a blizzard fan since they launched their first PC game.   Just unfortunate that SOE, for all their development talent, had no business savvy whatsoever.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,573
    Arclan said:
    Loke666 said:

    Several games do have a robust community: ESO, GW2, FF XIV, WOW and TOR at least have more players than Everquest did at it's peak.....

    Was just thinking we should start using % of the player base as a stat; rather than raw numbers.  What % of Western Civilization's MMORPG players were playing Everquest in 2001?   I'd say most of them.  Game reviewers loved EQ so much they didn't even want to spend time reviewing other games, LOL.

    It's true that Blizzard's endless marketing attracted millions to the genre; raising the measuring stick in terms of raw numbers.  And now it's hard to even determine how many real players are in MMOs like TOR since anyone can create a F2P account.
    Mathematically this would be a near impossible equation. Too many factors involved and to be honest the answers would be unimportant.


    - Populations then/now are company privileged information, numbers are made up.  Common people with facts/figures are wrong 100%.
    - MMOs have changed drastically in the last 6 years, who knows how many people quit all together, how many players like the new way.
    - Computers themselves were not so much a household necessity back then.
    - People were still on dial up internet.
    - Many didn't even know about MMO's as video games, even nerds.
    - Everquest and Everquest 2 were buggy as hell and didn't run on many good computers.
    - Many simply didn't like EQ unrelated to bugs.
    - The age group is much younger for computer knowledge now, their not just for adults/nerds.
    - $350 Laptop's had become popular, and can't play anything.
    - Times are changing again. People have i phones, and less homes have computers as of the last few years.
    - High end parts are coming down in price, but many can't afford them do to economy.
    - Console popularity fluctuates. 
    - Overall daily living has changed.
    - Offline games have changed.
    - Co-op shooters are popular. 

    This list is way to short to do any such evaluation.
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 12,698
    I was playing Asheron's Call....So...:p

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • lobotarulobotaru Member UncommonPosts: 165
    edited August 2015
    Speaking of FFXIV:ARR, they're trying to add more stuff from older MMORPGs at this point. Yoshida was surprised when one of those actually worked (their open world "hunt" system). They're also including content you can only do with a guild airship in 3.1 (more finding monsters, but still). With so many Final Fantasy fans pressuring Yoshida to put in more old school stuff, I think there is a strong market for Pantheon online.

    Just to clarify, FFXIV:ARR is not the game a person interested in Pantheon Online would probably want to play unless he wants more of the same that we've had for the last ten years. I'm thinking it will be a long while before FFXIV:ARR has adapted itself into something worth playing for its community.
  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
    I think there is plenty of evidence to conclude that many old school players have this "rose colored glasses" belief that if developers simply did away with LFG/LFD tools, mega servers, and story driven theme parks that MMO communities would suddenly return to the way they were and everything would be "hunky-dory" again in the MMO world.  LFG/LFD tools and mega servers where game play invention tools borne out of necessity.  They where not thought up on a whim and needlessly implemented.  What needs to be taken into account is that the MMO player base demographic of today differs greatly from the old school MMO player demographic.  Doing away with these essential tools will not make the current player base any more mature, considerate, or respectful. 

    Doing away with these tools will also not change the current player base "content locust" mentality.  It will not change the culture created by the rude WoW babies raised in Barrens.  It will not change the lack of "loot dynamic" consideration prevalent in games today and it will not change the perspective by today's player demographic that the game begins at "end game" and everything before it is a waste of time and space.  It's a different time in the evolution of the MMO industry and just like every other facet in the world, you either accept change and learn to adapt or perish.  It's a different time and space people.  MMO communities will never be what they used to be.  The sooner you realize this the sooner you'll be able to move on and begin enjoying MMO's again. 
  • BuccaneerBuccaneer Member UncommonPosts: 654
    I think there is plenty of evidence to conclude that many old school players have this "rose colored glasses" belief that if developers simply did away with LFG/LFD tools, mega servers, and story driven theme parks that MMO communities would suddenly return to the way they were and everything would be "hunky-dory" again in the MMO world.  LFG/LFD tools and mega servers where game play invention tools borne out of necessity.  They where not thought up on a whim and needlessly implemented.  What needs to be taken into account is that the MMO player base demographic of today differs greatly from the old school MMO player demographic.  Doing away with these essential tools will not make the current player base any more mature, considerate, or respectful. 

    Doing away with these tools will also not change the current player base "content locust" mentality.  It will not change the culture created by the rude WoW babies raised in Barrens.  It will not change the lack of "loot dynamic" consideration prevalent in games today and it will not change the perspective by today's player demographic that the game begins at "end game" and everything before it is a waste of time and space.  It's a different time in the evolution of the MMO industry and just like every other facet in the world, you either accept change and learn to adapt or perish.  It's a different time and space people.  MMO communities will never be what they used to be.  The sooner you realize this the sooner you'll be able to move on and begin enjoying MMO's again. 
    I would agree with this if Pantheon was aiming for a mainstrean audience but fortunately it is not.  It's designed for a niche audience of people who enjoyed and miss the pre-2004 MMO game mechanics.  It's not trying to be an AAA title and convert players to old school game mechanics. The devs have mentioned they only need a small population to be successful.
  • LacedOpiumLacedOpium Member EpicPosts: 2,327
    edited August 2015
    Buccaneer said:
    I think there is plenty of evidence to conclude that many old school players have this "rose colored glasses" belief that if developers simply did away with LFG/LFD tools, mega servers, and story driven theme parks that MMO communities would suddenly return to the way they were and everything would be "hunky-dory" again in the MMO world.  LFG/LFD tools and mega servers where game play invention tools borne out of necessity.  They where not thought up on a whim and needlessly implemented.  What needs to be taken into account is that the MMO player base demographic of today differs greatly from the old school MMO player demographic.  Doing away with these essential tools will not make the current player base any more mature, considerate, or respectful. 

    Doing away with these tools will also not change the current player base "content locust" mentality.  It will not change the culture created by the rude WoW babies raised in Barrens.  It will not change the lack of "loot dynamic" consideration prevalent in games today and it will not change the perspective by today's player demographic that the game begins at "end game" and everything before it is a waste of time and space.  It's a different time in the evolution of the MMO industry and just like every other facet in the world, you either accept change and learn to adapt or perish.  It's a different time and space people.  MMO communities will never be what they used to be.  The sooner you realize this the sooner you'll be able to move on and begin enjoying MMO's again. 
    I would agree with this if Pantheon was aiming for a mainstrean audience but fortunately it is not.  It's designed for a niche audience of people who enjoyed and miss the pre-2004 MMO game mechanics.  It's not trying to be an AAA title and convert players to old school game mechanics. The devs have mentioned they only need a small population to be successful.

    Your point has merit but the reality is that times have changed and what has been done can not be undone.  Many players who comprise this niche are simply looking back at old school MMO mechanics with rose colored glasses.  They may go back and play an MMO with old school mechanics for a few weeks but will they stay for very long after having experienced many of the new generation of convenience tools that have evolved in the industry out of necessity?  I hope the best for Pantheon because I myself really like many of the mechanics that drove old school MMOs such as a respectful and considerate community, emphasis on journey, challenging content, meaningful death penalty, relaxed and friendly dungeon crawls, etc.  I just don't believe that the implementation of LFG/LFD tools, in particular, are the evil that many of these supposed "pro-community" people make them out to be.  They just haven't been implemented smartly, to date, but they are none the less a convenience tool that is sorely needed when taking into consideration the needs of today's player base demographic.
  • BuccaneerBuccaneer Member UncommonPosts: 654
    Buccaneer said:
    I think there is plenty of evidence to conclude that many old school players have this "rose colored glasses" belief that if developers simply did away with LFG/LFD tools, mega servers, and story driven theme parks that MMO communities would suddenly return to the way they were and everything would be "hunky-dory" again in the MMO world.  LFG/LFD tools and mega servers where game play invention tools borne out of necessity.  They where not thought up on a whim and needlessly implemented.  What needs to be taken into account is that the MMO player base demographic of today differs greatly from the old school MMO player demographic.  Doing away with these essential tools will not make the current player base any more mature, considerate, or respectful. 

    Doing away with these tools will also not change the current player base "content locust" mentality.  It will not change the culture created by the rude WoW babies raised in Barrens.  It will not change the lack of "loot dynamic" consideration prevalent in games today and it will not change the perspective by today's player demographic that the game begins at "end game" and everything before it is a waste of time and space.  It's a different time in the evolution of the MMO industry and just like every other facet in the world, you either accept change and learn to adapt or perish.  It's a different time and space people.  MMO communities will never be what they used to be.  The sooner you realize this the sooner you'll be able to move on and begin enjoying MMO's again. 
    I would agree with this if Pantheon was aiming for a mainstrean audience but fortunately it is not.  It's designed for a niche audience of people who enjoyed and miss the pre-2004 MMO game mechanics.  It's not trying to be an AAA title and convert players to old school game mechanics. The devs have mentioned they only need a small population to be successful.

    Your point has merit but the reality is that times have changed and what has been done can not be undone.  Many players who comprise this niche are simply looking back at old school MMO mechanics with rose colored glasses.  They may go back and play an MMO with old school mechanics for a few weeks but will they stay for very long after having experienced many of the new generation of convenience tools that have evolved in the industry out of necessity?  I hope the best for Pantheon because I myself really like many of the mechanics that drove old school MMOs such as a respectful and considerate community, emphasis on journey, challenging content, meaningful death penalty, relaxed and friendly dungeon crawls, etc.  I just don't believe that the implementation of LFG/LFD tools, in particular, are the evil that many of these supposed "pro-community" people make them out to be.  They just haven't been implemented smartly, to date.  They are nevertheless a convenience tool that is sorely needed in today's MMO space.
    It is going to be interesting to watch to see what happens when these modernised old school MMO's get released. We have been subjected to a lot of convenience mechanics over the years and they're bound to left a mark on the player base.  We may yearn for the old mechanics of yesteryear but find it difficult to adapt back to old playstyles and ways of socialising with our fellow players.  Hopefully I'm up for the challenge :)
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