What's wrong with the crowd funded MMORPG?

bcbully · August 2015

Have there been any that have launched? I'm not aware of any. Sure plenty have paid for early accesses/pre-alphas/alphas yada yada... It seems most don't even make it to "beta". Why not? What's wrong with crowd funded mmoprgs?

Be it $100 million or $6000, they all seem to linger in pre-launch state. Why don't these projects get off the ground? Now a days it seems like there are 2 to 3 per month of these early access, pre-alpha, alpha, pre-order programs. Heck, Steam is littered with these eternal pre-launch phase mmorpgs. What's going on? The fan support is there. There seems to be no shortage of people ready to through money at these projects, yet they all seem to fall short. Why?

Bad management? Under estimation? Bad intentions? What is it? What's it going to take to see these projects launched?

edit- Typo...

Slapshot1188 · August 2015

My take is that it's usually a way to engage the "It's just a (Insert Alpha, Beta, Early Entry, Early Access, Early Enrollment)" defensive shield that many hardcore fans use.

In general I'm fairly OK with that as long as they don't charge a sub, have a cash shop or do not wipe. If any of those 3 occur then I believe it invalidates the defense. If all 3 exist well that's DOOOOOOM.

lobotaru · August 2015

Of those that have used kickstarter, only a few received funding, and they haven't been around long enough to complete their development cycles yet. MMORPGs are truly massive undertakings, so I wouldn't expect to see a good kickstarter MMORPG to reach its release state for at least another year or so.

Arglebargle · August 2015

There's no faerie godmother magic dev wand to cut the time of game development down. Three to four years is fast track. So if you see any MMO that was Kickstartered out now, it was incredibly, speedily done.

Sorry, sounds like the 'AreWeThereYet?arewethereyet,arreweeetheeerreyeet??' mantra.

Renfail · August 2015

Considering most MMORPGs take 4 - 6 years of development...can we go back to, say, 2010 or 2011 and find succesfully funded MMORPGs that are ready to be released this year?

Shroud of the Avatar was early 2013, as I recall? They were already at least a year along by the time they went to Kickstarter as far as I remember. Not looking at any sources right now, just top-of-my-head.

They've made serious headway and are 2.5 years out from their Kickstarter, and assuming a year prior to that, 3.5 years into a development cycle, and expect to release end of this year/early next year: http://sotawiki.net/sota/Release_Dates

A roughly 4 year development cycle.

I don't recall any MMORPGs with successful funding from 2010/11? Even a game funded in 2012 wouldn't realistically be available to play until 2016 at the earliest.

Most of the games people are familiar with now that had successful crowdfunding happened in the 2012-2014 bracket, no?

Renfail · August 2015

MisterZebub said:
And during the past decade, and a bit more, how many traditional corporate funded MMOs sucked at launch or never even made it that far? Crowd funded MMOs are in their infancy, and due to the very slapdash nature of their funding will most likely take longer to develop than the ones that had large corporations throwing money at them like teenyboppers throwing panties at a One Direction concert.

"Bad management? Under estimation? Bad intentions?" Possibly, but I think the true issue is "impatient, uneducated, self entitled, crybaby, bored, assholes." These games will get done when they GET DONE. If you are so desperate for entertainment that you can't wait, don't blame these guys, blame the giant parade of AAA fuckwits that flooded the genre with boring paint by numbers, carbon copy MMOs that don't hold your interest.

I'd like to apologize if that sounds harsh, but I just can't bring myself to do so. From what I've seen the people who are the most angry about kickstarter MMOs are the same "But Daddy, I want an Oompaloompa NOW" assholes that have plagued this genre from the get go.

The MMO making process is a very complex one that takes time to do right. And more so if you have to resort to crowd funding. If you don't have the self discipline to wait for what will hopefully be a great game without throwing a screaming wobbler, maybe you don't deserve to have one.

Have my babies!!!!!?

Kyleran · August 2015

MisterZebub said:

bcbully said:

edit- Typo...

The MMO making process is a very complex one that takes time to do right.

It takes a lot more than time, it takes a lot of money and IMO most of these kickstarter MMO's don't raise enough money to ever result in a properly launched game, particularly those who promise titles with more features than the modern day AAA themepark.

I remain skeptical than more than a handful will ever really reach the point of being successful, but then again, we only need a small number to succeed, not 1000's of clones of each other.

Distopia · August 2015

MisterZebub said:

bcbully said:

Have there been any that have launched? I'm not aware of any. Sure plenty have paid for early accesses/pre-alphas/alphas yada yada... It seems most don't even make it to "beta". Why not? What's wrong with crowd funded mmoprgs?

Be it $100 million or $6000, they all seem to linger in pre-launch state. Why don't these projects get off the ground? Now a days it seems like there are 2 to 3 per month of these early access, pre-alpha, alpha, pre-order programs. Heck, Steam is littered with these eternal pre-launch phase mmorpgs. What's going on? The fan support is there. There seems to be no shortage of people ready to through money at these projects, yet they all seem to fall short. Why?

Bad management? Under estimation? Bad intentions? What is it? What's it going to take to see these projects launched?

edit- Typo...

And during the past decade, and a bit more, how many traditional corporate funded MMOs sucked at launch or never even made it that far? Crowd funded MMOs are in their infancy, and due to the very slapdash nature of their funding will most likely take longer to develop than the ones that had large corporations throwing money at them like teenyboppers throwing panties at a One Direction concert.

"Bad management? Under estimation? Bad intentions?" Possibly, but I think the true issue is "impatient, uneducated, self entitled, crybaby, bored, assholes." These games will get done when they GET DONE. If you are so desperate for entertainment that you can't wait, don't blame these guys, blame the giant parade of AAA fuckwits that flooded the genre with boring paint by numbers, carbon copy MMOs that don't hold your interest.

I'd like to apologize if that sounds harsh, but I just can't bring myself to do so. From what I've seen the people who are the most angry about kickstarter MMOs are the same "But Daddy, I want an Oompaloompa NOW" assholes that have plagued this genre from the get go.

The MMO making process is a very complex one that takes time to do right. And more so if you have to resort to crowd funding. If you don't have the self discipline to wait for what will hopefully be a great game without throwing a screaming wobbler, maybe you don't deserve to have one.

Exactly... it's the chicken little's of the world who behave this way and make threads like this. Trying to make a dramatic spectacle of anything and everything.

CrimsonSix · August 2015

Are there crowd-funded MMOs that have failed a hard deadline? Because if there are not, you can't say that they are failing. Still gotta wait a couple of years. What's the closest indie MMO coming out soon?

Talonsin · August 2015

MisterZebub said:

"Bad management? Under estimation? Bad intentions?" Possibly, but I think the true issue is "impatient, uneducated, self entitled, crybaby, bored, assholes." These games will get done when they GET DONE. If you are so desperate for entertainment that you can't wait, don't blame these guys, blame the giant parade of AAA fuckwits that flooded the genre with boring paint by numbers, carbon copy MMOs that don't hold your interest.

Tell us how you really feel...

bcbully · August 2015

Distopia said:

MisterZebub said:

bcbully said:

Have there been any that have launched? I'm not aware of any. Sure plenty have paid for early accesses/pre-alphas/alphas yada yada... It seems most don't even make it to "beta". Why not? What's wrong with crowd funded mmoprgs?

Be it $100 million or $6000, they all seem to linger in pre-launch state. Why don't these projects get off the ground? Now a days it seems like there are 2 to 3 per month of these early access, pre-alpha, alpha, pre-order programs. Heck, Steam is littered with these eternal pre-launch phase mmorpgs. What's going on? The fan support is there. There seems to be no shortage of people ready to through money at these projects, yet they all seem to fall short. Why?

Bad management? Under estimation? Bad intentions? What is it? What's it going to take to see these projects launched?

edit- Typo...

And during the past decade, and a bit more, how many traditional corporate funded MMOs sucked at launch or never even made it that far? Crowd funded MMOs are in their infancy, and due to the very slapdash nature of their funding will most likely take longer to develop than the ones that had large corporations throwing money at them like teenyboppers throwing panties at a One Direction concert.

"Bad management? Under estimation? Bad intentions?" Possibly, but I think the true issue is "impatient, uneducated, self entitled, crybaby, bored, assholes." These games will get done when they GET DONE. If you are so desperate for entertainment that you can't wait, don't blame these guys, blame the giant parade of AAA fuckwits that flooded the genre with boring paint by numbers, carbon copy MMOs that don't hold your interest.

I'd like to apologize if that sounds harsh, but I just can't bring myself to do so. From what I've seen the people who are the most angry about kickstarter MMOs are the same "But Daddy, I want an Oompaloompa NOW" assholes that have plagued this genre from the get go.

The MMO making process is a very complex one that takes time to do right. And more so if you have to resort to crowd funding. If you don't have the self discipline to wait for what will hopefully be a great game without throwing a screaming wobbler, maybe you don't deserve to have one.

Exactly... it's the chicken little's of the world who behave this way and make threads like this. Trying to make a dramatic spectacle of anything and everything.

Lets look at this. The average AAA with huge budgets take on average about 5 years. Do we even know how long it will take the average crowd funded mmorpg, six, seven, eight years? Isn't that a problem within it's self, length of development?

I don't think it's so easy as to blame the backer and/or consumer for these projects not having come to fruition. Frankly I don't think it matters at all how they wait, or even if they move on. Their disposition has nothing to do with the development process.

Back to the issue you brought up, development time. What were you doing 6, 7, 8 years ago? What happens to small development teams when life happens to team members? The longer the development time, the smaller the budget, the more likely critical situations will arise. Can they recover? Will it take them longer to recover thus making the development process even longer?

I certainly do believe development time is a huge issue. I do not believe you can blame the consumer/backer for this though.

bcbully · August 2015

CrimsonSix said:

Are there crowd-funded MMOs that have failed a hard deadline? Because if there are not, you can't say that they are failing. Still gotta wait a couple of years. What's the closest indie MMO coming out soon?

I do not believe hard deadlines exist.

MrSnuffles · August 2015

bcbully said:

Have there been any that have launched? I'm not aware of any. Sure plenty have paid for early accesses/pre-alphas/alphas yada yada... It seems most don't even make it to "beta". Why not? What's wrong with crowd funded mmoprgs?

Be it $100 million or $6000, they all seem to linger in pre-launch state. Why don't these projects get off the ground? Now a days it seems like there are 2 to 3 per month of these early access, pre-alpha, alpha, pre-order programs. Heck, Steam is littered with these eternal pre-launch phase mmorpgs. What's going on? The fan support is there. There seems to be no shortage of people ready to through money at these projects, yet they all seem to fall short. Why?

Bad management? Under estimation? Bad intentions? What is it? What's it going to take to see these projects launched?

edit- Typo...

Amateur indie developers thinking they can create a MMORPG is what is wrong. It's not going to happen. We have plenty of examples of really bad mmorpg like projects that promise a boatload of features but in the end they can't even get the combat right.

Show me one indie MMORPG that does not look like complete rubbish and i am not talking about 6-12 people instanced dungeon grinders. Real massive open world, huge zones, hundreds of people on screen mmorpgs.

Even seasoned developers like Shroud of the Avatar can't handle it with it's mini zones and 20 people instances because it uses indie technology namely the crap engine called Unity.

MrSnuffles · August 2015

MisterZebub said:

"Bad management? Under estimation? Bad intentions?" Possibly, but I think the true issue is "impatient, uneducated, self entitled, crybaby, bored, assholes." These games will get done when they GET DONE. If you are so desperate for entertainment that you can't wait, don't blame these guys, blame the giant parade of AAA fuckwits that flooded the genre with boring paint by numbers, carbon copy MMOs that don't hold your interest.

I'd like to apologize if that sounds harsh, but I just can't bring myself to do so. From what I've seen the people who are the most angry about kickstarter MMOs are the same "But Daddy, I want an Oompaloompa NOW" assholes that have plagued this genre from the get go.

The MMO making process is a very complex one that takes time to do right. And more so if you have to resort to crowd funding. If you don't have the self discipline to wait for what will hopefully be a great game without throwing a screaming wobbler, maybe you don't deserve to have one.

I am betting with you now that none of these indie mmorpgs will ever reach a playable full released state. They are all failing at the basics and can't even get the combat right.

Amateur wanna be game developers will NEVER make a MMORPG. Not going to happen. Even industry veterans struggle, especially when they use shitty indie engines like Unity. (Looking at you Shroud of the Avatar)

None of them!

H0urg1ass · August 2015

Most AAA companies producing MMO's in the past decade couldn't deliver on everything they promised even with 4-5+ years of development. Thinking that a few indie devs working out of one of their mother's basements are going to produce the next messiah of MMORPG's in 4-5 years is hilarious.

CCP did it with EVE Online, but then again, they didn't beg for free money to build it. They made a hit board game that sold very well in Iceland, then a few of them mortgaged their own, and in one case their grandmother's, homes in order to produce it.

Now which MMO do you think is more likely to be finished? The one where they were handed a bunch of free money from naive "backers", or the one where the devs mortgaged their homes to make? I can tell you which one I would bank on if I were in Vegas betting on the odds.

Gaendric · August 2015

I agree to those who said "it's too early to draw a final conclusion".
Most projects have been crowdfunded in the last years, they had no chance to get finished yet. We will see what happens in the coming years.

In the end, the truth is most likely somewhere in the middle.
I am quite sure we will see all kinds of stuff happen, good and bad.

As long as people do their due diligence before handing out their hard earned money, they have a good chance of getting a product they will enjoy in return. Most of the bad apples have red flags waving from the getgo.

KenFisher · August 2015

What about Albion? Was that crowd funded?

mmoguy43 · August 2015

Hyperbolic Pondering: How much money would it take to throw at developing FTL tech to have it ready next week, I wonder.

Nothing appears to be wrong that we don't have a handful of crowdfunded MMORPGs. Meanwhile, enjoy the mass of non-mmorpg crowdfunded games with shorter development cycles. A lot of those are quite successful.

bcbully · August 2015

XAPKen said:

What about Albion? Was that crowd funded?

I had to look up. It looks like they went straight to steam with founders packs for closed beta. Being a German company they wouldn't be able to start a kickstarter on the up and up.

https://forum.albiononline.com/index.php/Thread/109-Kickstart-it/

Scot · August 2015

Kyleran said:
"It takes a lot more than time, it takes a lot of money and IMO most of these kickstarter MMO's don't raise enough money to ever result in a properly launched game, particularly those who promise titles with more features than the modern day AAA themepark."

I remain skeptical than more than a handful will ever really reach the point of being successful, but then again, we only need a small number to succeed, not 1000's of clones of each other.

We would be back to square one, companies promising the earth and ending up only giving us good graphics and a poor game. But untested as yet so I still have hope here.

delete5230 · August 2015

My big problem,

A real mmo requires a healthy population. Newer mmos play a smart nasty game with auto population tricks like LFD Tools and Mega Servers......This kills the Multi-Player Community, making it just another video game with players around you...Players don't stay long.

Now, with this ;

A real true mmo where players are on one server forming a community. Kick starters will never Shock-and-Awe with a full population at any given time. Players will come and go during phases of development. The population will be forever low.

A good example is Vanguard - Years after a bad release, some bugs got fixed, new starting zone....The game actually had a following. It did, I studied this game !........Never a healthy population at the same time. Players came and went. The game failed needlessly.

Buccaneer · August 2015

Western made MMORPG's are in (IMO) a sad state of repair at present. Lets face it there is no western AAA MMORPG in development unless you want to count Daybreak with EQN; all we have to look forward to is expac's for old games. If you don't like Asian MMO's you are pretty buggered when it comes down to future games to play.

The western market has been abandoned to the indie devs. We have to hope at least some of them know what they are doing. The majority of them are playing to different niche audiences, which in my opinion is a good thing. We may have to lower our standards and requirements if we want to continue to experience new western MMORPG's until a new AAA studio decides to invest again in the genre.

apocoluster · August 2015

I remain hopeful, IMO, they cant really do any worse than the big budget companies.

EvilGeek · August 2015

Wasn't The Repopulation originally crowdfunded through it's kickstarter campaign? they are getting close to a finished product. They raised 170,5000 via 43000 backers according to their site. They went in to early access on steam last December and aim for a release later this year. Seems to have worked well for them. I see EA on Steam as crowdfunding, you're paying to help development.

rojoArcueid · August 2015

Crowdfunding a game that is going to be sold is fine. Crowdfunding a game that is going to be sold and needs to make money constantly to keep servers alive is way too risky.

Are they planning to crowdfund the server maintenance too? mind as well shut it down... or evern better, not make an mmo without securing enough money to run the servers, not just to make the game. It is not guaranteed an mmo will retain enough people paying constantly nowadays. The risk is too great.

These guys crowdfunding games, IMHO, need to focus on non-mmos. (EDIT: or small multiplayer games that let you rent/host your own server)

lahnmir · August 2015

Nothing. Project Gorgon, The Repopulation and Shroud of the Avatar have given me more fun then say Wildstar, ESO and Skyforge. These crowdfunded games are rough around the edges, it makes them all the more exciting. I am done with the ultra streamlined and polished crap, there is no sense of wonder in these AAA games. Except FF14, but that is my softspot.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

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What's wrong with the crowd funded MMORPG?

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What's wrong with the crowd funded MMORPG?

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV