Moral of the story: don't trigger reviews when your game is in alpha/beta shape by turning on the subs or cash shop.
Developers beware: your game WILL be reviewed.
Eh, it's 2016 an investors are not throwing money at MMORPGs anymore. Charging a subscription fee for alpha actually seems like a far more reputable way to conduct business than trying to sell people $1,000+ ships for a game that doesn't even exist yet.
You totally missed the point which is about when a game sets itself up to be reviewed, not about how to monetize them - that's your thing, not mine.
PS... check your calendar.
Evidently I'm posting from the future...
I wasn't trying to argue the point. I completely agree. The first time I can remember something like that was when Neverwinter offered a full on cash shop while fans argued that you couldn't judge anything because it was still beta.
Perhaps I'm reading it wrong but I got the sense that Pathfinders paid alpha was more an act of desperation than geed so it's hard for me to be too harsh on them.
What ever happened to 'release it when it's complete' ?
A side note: MMORPG.com's database shows 'status: final released 2014', and in July 2015 it's pay for alpha.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
I have to agree with previous posters, the no wipe promise is disturbing. If you remember Darkfall, they ran into huge problems with early players getting a huge head start over everyone else.
Skill systems can be huge mires that drag the game down when not implemented correctly.
It is pretty obvious the monetization was to keep development going.
If you are going to charge for you game, despite the status, you will get reviewed. Glad MMORPG is doing so.
"The problem is that Pathfinder, unlike other sandbox games, rarely rewarded me for the extra effort. The world of the Riverlands is, on its own, a boring stretch of lifeless forest with static groupings of monsters waiting for you to wander just a little too close. There is little artistry present in Pathfinder Online's visuals. Character models, armor, buildingseverything looks drab and uninspired. Considering how much vibrant personality the source material has, this is a real tragedy. But visuals aren't where a sandbox game's sense of immersion is sparked, though they certainly help. Instead, Pathfinder failed to draw me because of just how profoundly boring so much of it can be."
Thanks for the great writeup! Unfortunately another great IP wasted.
Years ago it was luck to be chosen to test a game. Now that companies charge for testing, I do not mind paying for an alpha or beta because it means i will get in if i choose to do so and so can my friends. But it should be an alpha/beta with a full wipe and should never be some type of early start.
Moral of the story: don't trigger reviews when your game is in alpha/beta shape by turning on the subs or cash shop.
Developers beware: your game WILL be reviewed.
Let's hope that is true and that developers will realize we have FINALLY reached the bottom of what we (as a group) will accept as our "Minimally Viable Product".
I warned Ryan quite a while ago that his vision of an MVP product was quite different than the vast majority of potential customers. His response was something along the lines that a few people who disliked the game did not dictate what an MVP was.
When you couple the state of the game as described above, with a sub model and cash shop (although dropping the box fee) and adding a NO WIPE promise.... you get a 4.5 rated game.
I think the main point I differ with the author on is that the SUB itself is not the main fault... it's the NO WIPE in a time based XP system (in an open world PvP game with looting). So either you pay up now (and already be 7 months behind in XP) or you fall a year or more behind the curve.
THAT is the fatal flaw. Even many of their diehards on the PFO forums realize that.
Once again, I wish there was a way to upvote comments on this site. (Are you listening, Bill?)
If what you're saying is true (which I don't doubt), it just goes to show how out of touch...and stubborn...a lot of these dev heads are! Seriously, how could the head of a dev team be this lost, thinking this was going to fly?!
Again, this is why I feel that if there is any game worthy of my money, particularly in regards to investing early, it's Camelot Unchained.
To me, Mark Jacobs seems to be the only dev head that truly gets it! He not only understands what the players want , but is humble enough to actually listen to the playerbase and appreciate where they are coming from. MJ is actually in touch with the playerbase, IMHO.
Unfortunately, just about every other dev head I've seen/heard -- i.e. the Ryan Dancey's out there -- may pretend up front to be interested in what the players think (except for Carbine with their Hard Core mentality), but often later appear as if they know all and the players know nothing...which in a game like PFO, makes me wonder how much crowdforging is actually taking place, rather than just them blowing sunshine up your ass while they happily take your money. Like most other dev companies, they'll eventually change their tune and become more receptive only after the money starts to dry up.
However, having said all that, in this case I'm guessing GW felt like there had to be a no wipe clause in this case to justify to the alpha/beta patrons paying such a hefty price up front. Unfortunately for those early adopters, however, there aren't going to be many players to display their dominance with review like this one showing up.
In any case, I was really exicted for this game when it was announced, as it's a great IP with a lot of potential; however, now it looks to me like it's just another promising IP wasted.
Moral of the story: don't trigger reviews when your game is in alpha/beta shape by turning on the subs or cash shop.
Developers beware: your game WILL be reviewed.
I think the main point I differ with the author on is that the SUB itself is not the main fault... it's the NO WIPE in a time based XP system (in an open world PvP game with looting). So either you pay up now (and already be 7 months behind in XP) or you fall a year or more behind the curve.
THAT is the fatal flaw. Even many of their diehards on the PFO forums realize that.
Very good point. And to think, that damage hasn't really fully been realized, as the system that they lured their players into committing money to early(RT based XP) has rendered any official launch date moot. Unless they use separate launch date servers, then there's no point.
You can bet there are alot of players paying $15/month and not even playing the game, in hopes that they'll get something enjoyable a year down the road, and they'll have their higher power toon to wander around with.
That gives me a great idea for selling Progress Quest Online...
Moral of the story: don't trigger reviews when your game is in alpha/beta shape by turning on the subs or cash shop.
Developers beware: your game WILL be reviewed.
I think it's a big lesson for developers. They can try to make as many 'moments' as they want, but one of them - usually the most monetized one - will be considered as, judged as, and openly reviewed as the final version.
To be fair, it was Dancey who was running around screaming "We're released! We're Released!" wasn't it? They denied over and over again that the game wasn't released and that it was in beta or alpha. Personally, I think it was a rush-to-market strategy thinking that with all the EA stuff out there now they could get away with quality issues and still charge a sub.
To be fair, it was Dancey who was running around screaming "We're released! We're Released!" wasn't it? They denied over and over again that the game wasn't released and that it was in beta or alpha. Personally, I think it was a rush-to-market strategy thinking that with all the EA stuff out there now they could get away with quality issues and still charge a sub.
He was under the impression that players would happily pay for the product as long as he made the "CROWDFORGING!!1!" tag obvious.
Something tells me that's not working out quite as planned.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
(a) Goblinworks hired an actual PR professional to take care of that side of the business.
(b) Dancey didn't spend weeks on these forums making absurd claims that lead to an outcry for a review on the product he was pushing as being in live operations.
Seriously, no wonder they can't secure any investors.
You have a failed ex-marketing executive doing all of the PR work for the game, while contradicting himself at every turn, and making ridiculous statements entirely to try and save face in regards to previous comments made by that same individual.
The expression "digging your own grave" has never been more appropriate, as Dancey has effectively buried the game with his poor PR. Opening his mouth has cost him more potential customers than he could ever begin to fathom.
The moral of this story?
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.
One time fee for a voice at the table of a game I love sure. 15 bucks a month? For a game in the state this game is? No way. Im not sure how they managed to get the people they have paying. /reviewhammer
Sad thing is Ryan Dancey doesn't have a clue... I spent some time in both the Pathfinder forums and he mostly just tried to peddle his vision to the exclusion of all, apart from what he WANTS to hear and what his YES men say.
This was quite apparent after about a week or two of reading the forums and watching his fans rip new and old forum members alike for disliking or giving constructive criticism or expressing doubt on certain mechanics or the direction the game was going in.
Ignoring all that is sadly what has led to this poor state of affairs.
Good Job YES men!
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Sad thing is Ryan Dancey doesn't have a clue... I spent some time in both the Pathfinder forums and he mostly just tried to peddle his vision to the exclusion of all, apart from what he WANTS to hear and what his YES men say.
This was quite apparent after about a week or two of reading the forums and watching his fans rip new and old forum members alike for disliking or giving constructive criticism or expressing doubt on certain mechanics or the direction the game was going in.
Ignoring all that is sadly what has led to this poor state of affairs.
Good Job YES men!
Could not agree more.
Those fans in the echo chamber have done far more damage to their game than any detractor ever could. I am sure even after the review he will be explaining that it just wasn't reviewed by the right person...
So many of these issues were easily identified and could have been corrected. What a waste of potential.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
I don't know,if you have played WurmOnline then you shouldn't have any trouble playing this. Trying logging into a totally empty world or server and building everything from the ground up then come back and tell me about Pathfinder Online.
This appears to be a review about Pathfinder Online not WurmOnline.
Sad thing is Ryan Dancey doesn't have a clue... I spent some time in both the Pathfinder forums and he mostly just tried to peddle his vision to the exclusion of all, apart from what he WANTS to hear and what his YES men say.
This was quite apparent after about a week or two of reading the forums and watching his fans rip new and old forum members alike for disliking or giving constructive criticism or expressing doubt on certain mechanics or the direction the game was going in.
Ignoring all that is sadly what has led to this poor state of affairs.
Good Job YES men!
Well, to give them a little sympathy... what's the solution? It seems to me they've taken a path that they can't walk out of. They tried a revenue strategy that smelled funny from the beginning, hoping the results would bring more players/revenue; an early Eve-esque "slowgrow", and that hasn't borne out.
They can't go F2P, as it's likely that they'd lose a good chunk of their current subs; those who are subbing but not playing, picking up RT XP while waiting for a real game to coalesce.
Reverting back to a real Alpha/Beta development process is probably out of the question, and any mention of a server wipe will make pitchfork and torch manufacturers millionaires...
I think the best they can do is get Dancey to STFU, constantly offer vet incentives for subbed players and keep plugging away.
Sad thing is Ryan Dancey doesn't have a clue... I spent some time in both the Pathfinder forums and he mostly just tried to peddle his vision to the exclusion of all, apart from what he WANTS to hear and what his YES men say.
This was quite apparent after about a week or two of reading the forums and watching his fans rip new and old forum members alike for disliking or giving constructive criticism or expressing doubt on certain mechanics or the direction the game was going in.
Ignoring all that is sadly what has led to this poor state of affairs.
Sad thing is Ryan Dancey doesn't have a clue... I spent some time in both the Pathfinder forums and he mostly just tried to peddle his vision to the exclusion of all, apart from what he WANTS to hear and what his YES men say.
This was quite apparent after about a week or two of reading the forums and watching his fans rip new and old forum members alike for disliking or giving constructive criticism or expressing doubt on certain mechanics or the direction the game was going in.
Ignoring all that is sadly what has led to this poor state of affairs.
Good Job YES men!
Well, to give them a little sympathy... what's the solution? ..snip...
Dunno, tbh I don't go to their forums anymore or keep up with it past the threads that come up here at mmorpg. I was looking for a new DnD/pathfinder game to replace DDO and honestly it really didn't feel DnDish to me at all.
It felt more like your typical mortal online sandbox with a focus on pvp and crafting, collect/farm junk to make gear and be able to wear it so you can pew pew pew.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
This game isn't a seed of potential. It's a piece of shit buried in soil, in hopes of it turning into something... but it's just shit and a dude saying that it's not.
Comments
Evidently I'm posting from the future...
I wasn't trying to argue the point. I completely agree. The first time I can remember something like that was when Neverwinter offered a full on cash shop while fans argued that you couldn't judge anything because it was still beta.
Perhaps I'm reading it wrong but I got the sense that Pathfinders paid alpha was more an act of desperation than geed so it's hard for me to be too harsh on them.
What ever happened to 'release it when it's complete' ?
A side note: MMORPG.com's database shows 'status: final released 2014', and in July 2015 it's pay for alpha.
I have to agree with previous posters, the no wipe promise is disturbing. If you remember Darkfall, they ran into huge problems with early players getting a huge head start over everyone else.
Skill systems can be huge mires that drag the game down when not implemented correctly.
It is pretty obvious the monetization was to keep development going.
If you are going to charge for you game, despite the status, you will get reviewed. Glad MMORPG is doing so.
This paragraph tells me all I need to know:
Thanks for the great writeup! Unfortunately another great IP wasted.
Where's the upvote button?
Thank you for posting the review.
Years ago it was luck to be chosen to test a game. Now that companies charge for testing, I do not mind paying for an alpha or beta because it means i will get in if i choose to do so and so can my friends. But it should be an alpha/beta with a full wipe and should never be some type of early start.
Once again, I wish there was a way to upvote comments on this site. (Are you listening, Bill?)
If what you're saying is true (which I don't doubt), it just goes to show how out of touch...and stubborn...a lot of these dev heads are! Seriously, how could the head of a dev team be this lost, thinking this was going to fly?!
Again, this is why I feel that if there is any game worthy of my money, particularly in regards to investing early, it's Camelot Unchained.
To me, Mark Jacobs seems to be the only dev head that truly gets it! He not only understands what the players want , but is humble enough to actually listen to the playerbase and appreciate where they are coming from. MJ is actually in touch with the playerbase, IMHO.
Unfortunately, just about every other dev head I've seen/heard -- i.e. the Ryan Dancey's out there -- may pretend up front to be interested in what the players think (except for Carbine with their Hard Core mentality), but often later appear as if they know all and the players know nothing...which in a game like PFO, makes me wonder how much crowdforging is actually taking place, rather than just them blowing sunshine up your ass while they happily take your money. Like most other dev companies, they'll eventually change their tune and become more receptive only after the money starts to dry up.
However, having said all that, in this case I'm guessing GW felt like there had to be a no wipe clause in this case to justify to the alpha/beta patrons paying such a hefty price up front. Unfortunately for those early adopters, however, there aren't going to be many players to display their dominance with review like this one showing up.
In any case, I was really exicted for this game when it was announced, as it's a great IP with a lot of potential; however, now it looks to me like it's just another promising IP wasted.
Very good point. And to think, that damage hasn't really fully been realized, as the system that they lured their players into committing money to early(RT based XP) has rendered any official launch date moot. Unless they use separate launch date servers, then there's no point.
You can bet there are alot of players paying $15/month and not even playing the game, in hopes that they'll get something enjoyable a year down the road, and they'll have their higher power toon to wander around with.
That gives me a great idea for selling Progress Quest Online...
To be fair, it was Dancey who was running around screaming "We're released! We're Released!" wasn't it? They denied over and over again that the game wasn't released and that it was in beta or alpha. Personally, I think it was a rush-to-market strategy thinking that with all the EA stuff out there now they could get away with quality issues and still charge a sub.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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He was under the impression that players would happily pay for the product as long as he made the "CROWDFORGING!!1!" tag obvious.
Something tells me that's not working out quite as planned.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
This all could have been avoided if:
(a) Goblinworks hired an actual PR professional to take care of that side of the business.
(b) Dancey didn't spend weeks on these forums making absurd claims that lead to an outcry for a review on the product he was pushing as being in live operations.
Seriously, no wonder they can't secure any investors.
You have a failed ex-marketing executive doing all of the PR work for the game, while contradicting himself at every turn, and making ridiculous statements entirely to try and save face in regards to previous comments made by that same individual.
The expression "digging your own grave" has never been more appropriate, as Dancey has effectively buried the game with his poor PR. Opening his mouth has cost him more potential customers than he could ever begin to fathom.
The moral of this story?
Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.
Joined - July 2004
Checkout this little gem from the PFO Forums:
https://goblinworks.com/forum/topic/3257/
At first glance one might think this was satire, but alas it is not. The poster is entirely serious.
I don't even...
I have found in my lifetime, that the beauty of hating stupid people is, that it crosses all racial boundaries.
Sad thing is Ryan Dancey doesn't have a clue... I spent some time in both the Pathfinder forums and he mostly just tried to peddle his vision to the exclusion of all, apart from what he WANTS to hear and what his YES men say.
This was quite apparent after about a week or two of reading the forums and watching his fans rip new and old forum members alike for disliking or giving constructive criticism or expressing doubt on certain mechanics or the direction the game was going in.
Ignoring all that is sadly what has led to this poor state of affairs.
Good Job YES men!
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
Could not agree more.
Those fans in the echo chamber have done far more damage to their game than any detractor ever could. I am sure even after the review he will be explaining that it just wasn't reviewed by the right person...
So many of these issues were easily identified and could have been corrected. What a waste of potential.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
This appears to be a review about Pathfinder Online not WurmOnline.
This was gold. Thanks for posting.
I'm a MUDder. I play MUDs.
Current: Dragonrealms
Well, to give them a little sympathy... what's the solution? It seems to me they've taken a path that they can't walk out of. They tried a revenue strategy that smelled funny from the beginning, hoping the results would bring more players/revenue; an early Eve-esque "slowgrow", and that hasn't borne out.
They can't go F2P, as it's likely that they'd lose a good chunk of their current subs; those who are subbing but not playing, picking up RT XP while waiting for a real game to coalesce.
Reverting back to a real Alpha/Beta development process is probably out of the question, and any mention of a server wipe will make pitchfork and torch manufacturers millionaires...
I think the best they can do is get Dancey to STFU, constantly offer vet incentives for subbed players and keep plugging away.
This describes every beta forums I've ever seen.
Dunno, tbh I don't go to their forums anymore or keep up with it past the threads that come up here at mmorpg. I was looking for a new DnD/pathfinder game to replace DDO and honestly it really didn't feel DnDish to me at all.
It felt more like your typical mortal online sandbox with a focus on pvp and crafting, collect/farm junk to make gear and be able to wear it so you can pew pew pew.
Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.
It would have been a crime not to share that lol.
I just cant not get my head around that this game is still getting any form of press.
Anyone who thinks this game hold any form of potential is delusional.
A seed? This game is fertilizer at best and honestly I am giving it credit it does not deserve to even go that far.
I mean fertilizer at least helps something else grow. Pathfinder wont even do that, it is a total waste of the very particles of cosmic dust.
This game should be sent to prisoners on death row, would save us millions on executions they would all kill themselves to escape it.