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CEO claims frustration that "there doesn't seem to be any way to review the game objectively"

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  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,721
    Originally posted by Wizardry

    After reading that several times,what it really sounds like is that he thinks everyone who likes the crowdforging idea MUST say they like every game doing it.

    I remember it was similar with Mortal Online back then.

     

    The critics would point out what a buggy shitty mess the game was despite some good ideas.

    The fans would attack them and make claims like: "If you don't support this game then you are hurting the whole genre!"

    Harbinger of Fools
  • AndiusMeuridiarAndiusMeuridiar Member UncommonPosts: 91
    Lol. PFO is similar to Mortal Online in that it has some great / original ideas but the overall package is so horrid that the game is just unplayable.

    The main difference is that Mortal has some of their great ideas actually in the game while PFO's are purely contained within the blogs.
  • BringsliteBringslite Member UncommonPosts: 75
    Originally posted by Audoucet
    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

    Ryan Dancy: This is not a game in any sort of "test" mode. We are not "alpha" or "beta" testing. We're in Early Enrollment - a complete game with limited features that are being iterated and expanded based on Crowdforging with our players. 

    So the real quote is "a complete game with limited features"? Not "a complete game just missing non essential features"?

    Ok. Do you need me to explain that those two statements mean different things?

    Your challenge was to show me some quotes (by Dancey) that validated what YOU wrote. All of what you wrote.

    Failure.

    Bad Game-Fu is Bad.

    No more "BOX" fee. Free 15 day trials at: goblinworks.com/download/
    Ozem's Vigil: The largest force for Holy Justice in the River Kingdoms.
    Are You Ready to Smite Evil?
    ozemsvigil.guildlaunch.com

  • BringsliteBringslite Member UncommonPosts: 75

    So before I disappear again (from here) I will just write one last post. There is a complete game cycle here in PfO. Advancement is possible from 1 to 20.

    *There is an economy of player crafted goods, purchased by players. There is a complete fight, loot, harvest, refine, craft, trade, sell cycle.

    *There are mechanics to place "Holdings" in empty hexes to increase your company and settlement's options.

    *There is opportunity for banditry.

    *There is plenty of opportunity for spies infiltrating player organizations. It is already happening.

    *There is one serious ongoing war.

    *There is even PVP fatigue, admittedly due to "limited features" like a way to finish a war, technically.

    *There are limits to training that are set BY Players according to what their settlements can afford to support. EDIT: this is misleading. There is universal support for levels (ranks) to 20 for all. Individual settlements set the training that they can offer at their location by what they want and can afford to maintain. Currently, you can train anywhere that offers what you need. That is subject to change, so be NICE, make some friends.

    *There is PVE. There are a nice variety of PVE mobs requiring different tactics. No, not enough yet.

    * There are socially built and maintained player organizations. (The real heart of this game)

    *There are deep politics that have been almost a mini game for a few years now.

    *Despite contrary statements from estranged current and former supporters, there is crowdforging  that actually is different and more impactful than previous sandboxes. Read the GW forums. It is all over them.

    There is a game here already. Is it complete? NO. Is it playable? YES. Is it good as is? NOT FOR EVERYONE.

    I will say that we have had a nice bump in recruits since the box fee was dropped. AND about 1/2 of them subscribed at the end of their trial (after a few days or the end of trial) when they played with folks from Ozem's Vigil. They must see SOMETHING worth their $14.95/month.

    What are you missing right now?

    Now back to the game. It eats hours like an addiction and I am wasting time here.

    No more "BOX" fee. Free 15 day trials at: goblinworks.com/download/
    Ozem's Vigil: The largest force for Holy Justice in the River Kingdoms.
    Are You Ready to Smite Evil?
    ozemsvigil.guildlaunch.com

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 6,941
    Originally posted by Bringslite
    Originally posted by Audoucet
    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

    Ryan Dancy: This is not a game in any sort of "test" mode. We are not "alpha" or "beta" testing. We're in Early Enrollment - a complete game with limited features that are being iterated and expanded based on Crowdforging with our players. 

    So the real quote is "a complete game with limited features"? Not "a complete game just missing non essential features"?

    Ok. Do you need me to explain that those two statements mean different things?

    Your challenge was to show me some quotes (by Dancey) that validated what YOU wrote. All of what you wrote.

    Failure.

    Bad Game-Fu is Bad.

    You probably think that what you wrote here makes you sound more "right," but using an essentially semantic argument and then insulting the other guy to try and back away from your, frankly, embarrassing post makes you look less credible than before. 

     

    While those two statements do mean technically different things, the difference is almost negligible. I really don't see how the below statement using the red words is so different than the below statement using the blue word that you would feel like you won some victory in "Game-Fu."

     Are you talking about Caldeathe's refusal to aknowledge that Ryan clearly stated that the game was live, complete, playable, and just missing non essential has limited features?

     

    He essentially called your bluff, showed the evidence and you still didn't accept it. And I honestly don't know why it makes you upset. If anything, you should be upset with the way RD handled the situation. To me, it looks like you were sick of people repeating what were, obvious enough to you, lies or half truths. And I think you thought that because it DOES sound ridiculous. But next time, when you call someone else out and they provide evidence to back their position, at the very least, don't try and back away by using semantics, calling them a failure and telling them they are bad at "Game-Fu" (whatever that is).

  • ThebeastttThebeasttt Member RarePosts: 1,130

    I deem PO officially dead as of now. When you're so arrogant you deny every review of your garbage game as being "bias" you have lost grip on reality. I think even some of his friends would say PO is below standard on multiple levels.

     

    If 90% of Five Guys customers said the burgers were substandard they wouldn't call them all bias toward Burger King. They would change the product overnight and that's the difference between a smart businessman and an amateur.

  • BluddwolfBluddwolf Member UncommonPosts: 355
    I will also be stepping away from this thread.  The review that Steve is doing, is due out soon enough (a couple of days if on schedule).  

    Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....

  • AudoucetAudoucet Member UncommonPosts: 69
    Originally posted by Bringslite

    So the real quote is "a complete game with limited features"? Not "a complete game just missing non essential features"?

    Ok. Do you need me to explain that those two statements mean different things?

    Your challenge was to show me some quotes (by Dancey) that validated what YOU wrote. All of what you wrote.

    Failure.

    Bad Game-Fu is Bad.

    Everybody understand like I do, except fanboys, no arguing needed.

    And your cyber-hood slang sounds dumb.

  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,152

    Well the review is in, and although the reviewer must have mentioned "crowdforging" and "potential" a dozen times (no possible connection to Ryan's reaching out as described in the OP I am sure) they still got a whopping 4.5 score.

     

     

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • BluddwolfBluddwolf Member UncommonPosts: 355

    OOh MYYY...

    They would have been better off with my score of 5.5 - 6.0, clearly I was being more generous.

     

    Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....

  • kikoodutroa8kikoodutroa8 Member RarePosts: 558
    And the fate of the whole mmorpg genre depends on this game!
  • Arkade99Arkade99 Member RarePosts: 459

    I tried it...

     

    For 5 minutes.

     

    It actually wouldn't be bad if the animations worked and the characters weren't so clunky. 

  • wmmarcellinowmmarcellino Member UncommonPosts: 94
    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

    You have repeatedly complained about the "review" by Steve.  There has been no such review written.   Instead he has posted a FIRST IMPRESSIONS which was clearly titled as such and explained that this represented his experience of SEVERAL HOURS (note, not 2).  He said he would play the game as well as join PFU for a few weeks and THEN write his review.

     

    Did he ever actually join a settlement and play the game?  I can't find his review.

    Do the RIGHT THING: come be a Paladin with us! http://ozemsvigil.guildlaunch.com/

  • BluddwolfBluddwolf Member UncommonPosts: 355
    Originally posted by wmmarcellino
    Originally posted by Slapshot1188

    You have repeatedly complained about the "review" by Steve.  There has been no such review written.   Instead he has posted a FIRST IMPRESSIONS which was clearly titled as such and explained that this represented his experience of SEVERAL HOURS (note, not 2).  He said he would play the game as well as join PFU for a few weeks and THEN write his review.

     

    Did he ever actually join a settlement and play the game?  I can't find his review.

    Here is the link, but you can also find it under Features tab:

    http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/719/view/reviews/load/395/Pathfinder-Online-A-Seed-of-Potential-Planted-in-Barren-Soil.html

    Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....

  • AndiusMeuridiarAndiusMeuridiar Member UncommonPosts: 91
    He said he joined Pathfinder University right at the end of the first review Mr. "I-Read-The-Review"
  • BluddwolfBluddwolf Member UncommonPosts: 355

    @Mbando,

    Im not convinced you would ever be satisfied with the length or depth of a negative review.  The reality is, even if he played for two months, would he have found the game any less boring, uninspired, less grindy, or have more value worthy of a full subscription price?

    Considering the number of players the game has lost from the Kick Starter pool, I'd say his score would likely have gone lower with more exposure.  He likely barely had time or need to have to kill 5000 goblins to advance his weapon skill to x level.  He was not there long enough to experience how much a chore settlement management is, or how stale running escalations becomes when he had done them 50 plus times.  

     

    Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,562

    It is not a really bad game but it is not a really good game either.

    I think rather than rely on BUYING positive reviews,the  developer should put out a spokesman that can tell us why we should play this game over the thousand other choices we have?

    Crowdforging is NOT an excuse or reason  to play a game,not even 1%,we simply want a game that can be all around fun or offer us something we have not already been there done that a thousand times over.

    Anyone that has been around since even the Wow days has likely seen 5000+ quests,i am big time certain i am over 50k quests in all the games i have played.It is sort of mind boggling that devs just don't get it,been there done it a thousand times,not interested anymore,show me SOMETHING creative that took more effort than a simple spreadsheet.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • AndiusMeuridiarAndiusMeuridiar Member UncommonPosts: 91
    I think "not a bad game" depends on if you are comparing it to games made in 2000 or 2015.
  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,158

    I am going to have to echo what others have said

     

    There is no such thing as a objective review... No one live in a vacuum. The best you can hope for is fair and balanced. But it is still a bit childish to put on the victim cardigan and bemoan how nobody gets your game. Because guess what... That is the life of anyone who have ever had their creative work judged by others. So your game is a special little snowflake that the common man can not understand... Guess what... The common man will give it a poor review. Compound that with most reviwers having anything between a few hours to a few days to grasp the complete image  of your complex little snowflake and objective is not only a pipe-dream but downright impossible. 

     

    And turning to the people who "understand" your game will NOT give you a objective review... It will in fact produce very much the opposite. It will be much more positive but not objective. 

    Tawess gaming

    Tawess soapbox

    This have been a good conversation

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,562

    Every time i read that article it gives me a new impression of this guys thought process.I seriously think he is a bit over biased of his game that he can't see the obvious.

    It sounds like he bases game quality in "this case" on nothing but ACCESS.He thinks that because he allows some gamer's early access and allows them to say something,that makes a quality game,it is a crazy notion.

    Every single game on this planet will have someone or many like it,no matter how bad the game design is.I should make it clear that when i say bad ,i am not talking about opinionated ideas i am talking straight out tech/code/effort in the systems.My point is that you can get a million bottom end developers to just make a game world and dot some mobs around in it and add in some quests,the market is FLOODED with these lazy efforts.

    I really think this Goblinworks,thought it was going to be an easy ride and easy sell  and some easy money.

    It is VERY hard for me to express what  is exactly the problem with every single system,i like to keep it simple using the term DEPTH or effort put into the systems.The way i like to say things is put your self in the game,walk around and pay attention to what you are doing,does it really feel fun or just a player going through the relegated motions?

    I can give a couple examples.Take a quest put some animation into it,some interaction,some voice overs and no not CHEAP interaction like pull that obvious lever that is right in front of your nose.Put in some destructive walls,particle effects some physics,there is soooooooooo much effort that can go into each aspect of a game it is mind boggling.If you don't put that effort in the game is just a bland shell of what it SHOULD be.

     

     

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • PottedPlant22PottedPlant22 Member RarePosts: 800
    The game needs more cash investment to see any real growth.  It's not developed enough to warrant a sub.  And I won't be guilted into feeling like I have to pay one every month or I'm letting my gaming buddies down.  
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,152
    The game needs more cash investment to see any real growth.  It's not developed enough to warrant a sub.  And I won't be guilted into feeling like I have to pay one every month or I'm letting my gaming buddies down.  
    I used to think that way but now I do not think it is just a matter of cash.  I think there have been a series of questionable decisions made by the folks at the top and some design decisions that just don't make sense.  I don't think they could fix this game even if they tripled their cash and that's my honest take on it...

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • thunderclesthundercles Member UncommonPosts: 510
    There is definitely a disconnect between the reality of the state of the game and what it needs to be to warrant a full priced sub. I understand they're using the funding to "crowd forge". But they have to realize that the consumer will weigh the value of their $15 vs what the market offers and try to maximize their return. Of course it's all preceived value but $15 a month for an unfinished product or $15 for a finished and polished product, I know what I'm choosing. Also, there is a healthy amount is skeptism in the culture which will be an obstacle.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    I used to think that way but now I do not think it is just a matter of cash.  I think there have been a series of questionable decisions made by the folks at the top and some design decisions that just don't make sense.  I don't think they could fix this game even if they tripled their cash and that's my honest take on it...
    That is kinda hard to say really. The minimum requirement for a good P2P game is that it runs fine and feels like a complete game. If that wont happen it doesn't really matter how good or bad decisions the team have taken otherwise.

    I do find it odd that Paizo sold the license to a team with this poor funding though. Or for that matter that they picked the license for a open world sandbox without levels, there are many leveless pen and paper games that would have worked better for that (like Runequest, Warhammer fantasy, Stormbringer, Gemini and a whole bunch of others) and allowed them to make a game closer to the original. Those license with the possible exception of Warhammer would all be far cheaper as well but most of them are still very well known with pen and paper players. Those who don't play P&P don't know what Pathfinder is anyways.
  • BluddwolfBluddwolf Member UncommonPosts: 355
    The game needs more cash investment to see any real growth.  It's not developed enough to warrant a sub.  And I won't be guilted into feeling like I have to pay one every month or I'm letting my gaming buddies down.  
    I used to think that way but now I do not think it is just a matter of cash.  I think there have been a series of questionable decisions made by the folks at the top and some design decisions that just don't make sense.  I don't think they could fix this game even if they tripled their cash and that's my honest take on it...
    I think there is a lack of sequence and focus in the game's development.  They address issues all over the map, so while they made some fixes to New Player Experience, they then jumped to end game, but no attention to mid game systems, then they drop in a system without it's prerequisites and we are left with a muddled mess.

    They need to have a way for players to respec their experience points.  There is no incentive to experiment becuase if you do, you're throwing time, experience and real money away.  This will take some of the negative feelings out of the New Player Experience whom may be very concerned about spending xp and later find that the feature did not do what it said or it did not combine or slot the way they thought it would.  For more experienced characters, Goblin Works has rendered some skills either useless or altered their effects so dramatically that the player chooses to go in a whole new direction.

    Each character should start with a respec, and earn a new one every 6 months.  Respecs could also be put in the Cash Shop for purchase.  

    Played: E&B, SWG, Eve, WoW, COH, WAR, POTBS, AOC, LOTRO, AUTO.A, AO, FE, TR, WWII, MWO, TSW, SWTOR, GW2, NWO, WoP, RUST, LIF, SOA, MORTAL, DFUW, AA, TF, PFO, ALBO, and many many others....

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